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Meatless Mondays
There's a movement afoot to urge people to go meatless on Mondays. Why? The environmental benefits of going meatless are considerable, in addition to the fact that most Americans ingest far more protein (and meat) than they need to, as well as the health benefits of eating more fruits, vegetables, and fiber. According to my university nutrition class, only 10-35% of our balance of macronutrients needs to come from protein; the amount of protein needed depends on a person's body weight (more info here: Protein - Your Questions Answered - The Nutrition Source - Harvard School of Public Health).
Depending on where you get your meat, it may be raised in a concentrated animal feeding operation (CAFO). CAFOs produce large amounts of pollutants. As you can imagine, so many animals in a single space produces a lot of shit, quite frankly--500 million tons, according to the CDC (National Center for Environmental Health: 2006 National Environmental Public Health Conference - Abstracts - Session D1 | CDC). These animals have to be pumped full of antibiotics in order to be kept healthy because they are kept in such close quarters with other animals. Many of you here are already familiar with the problems associated with CAFOs, so I won't go into greater detail. So why go meatless on a Monday? For one, it's good for you. Certainly, meat is an easy source of protein and vitamin B12. But it really isn't that difficult to find these nutrients in other foods. B12 can be found in eggs. While you may think--wait, doesn't eating an egg run counter to the whole meatless Monday thing?--no, not quite. It's relatively easy to find eggs that are raised in a humane way with minimal environmental impact. Try your local farmer's market. Additionally, B12 can be found in milk, so drink up, and there are also plenty of fortified foods out there with B12. Then, you may think--wait, don't vegetarians have a hard time with protein? What's this complete protein baloney? Well, it's just that--baloney. It turns out vegetarians can eat a wide variety of plant-based proteins throughout their day and get all of the essential amino acids they need; there's no reason to worry about whether a protein is complete or incomplete as long as the person in question is paying attention to the wider scope of their diet. I write this post as a person who has been eating vegetarian about 75% (or more) of the time for almost 5 years now. Don't get me wrong--I'm not going to say no to a steak, but I am going to ask where it came from and how it was raised (thank goodness my meat-loving in-laws are on the same page as me). I know that some of you already do this. And one last thing for those of you looking to save some bucks in these hard economic times: meat is expensive. Going meatless one day a week may not save you a lot of dough at first, but if you cut out meat at other meals and start getting creative, you CAN save a lot of money. Here's a video from the Meatless Monday people: I think their website must be slammed as I can't get it to load, but here's a link for later: http://www.meatlessmonday.com/ And even Mario Batali is on board: Chris Elam: Meatless Mondays: Even Mario Batali's Doing It So how about you? Would you consider giving up meat one day a week? |
sorry, not for me...
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I am for eating better and eating more healthier (I'm trying my best to change my diet as we speak), but for a hard "You can't eat meat on this day" I am against. I could be down for one day a week eating less meat (or none at all), but I want to choose that day, not be told that is the day I am meatless. To big brother for me.
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What's wrong with people? I will by accident go a day without meat at random. Why do you need to designate a day like this?
Too much meat. It's like Buy Nothing Day. Do you want to know how many days out of the year I'll go without buying something? Okay... so what's wrong with me? I get it. I don't belong in North America. |
Well, considering I work in a beef processing plant, or slaughterhouse if you will, this definitely isn't for me, I like eating meat, it's quite tasty, as for asking how it was raised and where it came from, I could care less, be it cow, pig, lamb, couldn't care less where it comes from, as long as it's tasty after it's been on the grill.
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im with Phil here...
i cant go without meat...if it happens by accident (which is a rarity for me) then so be it. But i wont go out of my way to avoid it. I avoid many other things that will kill me much much earlier, so im entitled to my meat on mondays and every other day of the week. when everyone else i know gives up smoking and alcohol, ill give up my meat. |
I think this is a good idea wrapped in a bad package. As a former vegetarian, I'm all for it, but you can see people's reaction to it.
It's kind of like those "boycott BP/Shell/evil-oil-company-of-your-choice for a day" campaigns that aimed to hurt the oil companies when gas prices spiked. Even though reducing petroleum consumption is something most people can get behind, many people reacted badly to the idea either because they resist being told what to do, or because they spotted the obvious logical flaws (you'll just buy gas another day). It's a nice marketing concept - it's alliterative, it echoes other "day of the week" campaigns like Taco Tuesday (irony) or Thirsty Thursday at our local ball park, and it makes it manageable - it's only one day a week. But I think you're going to hit a stubborn streak among those carnivores who, in my experience, bristle at the mere fact of vegetarianism as though it was a personal affront and attack. Or even among people who are amenable to the idea but react against the idea joining some deprivation pledge. I think the campaign might get a better response if it was targeted positively ("Go for the Greens!" or "Eat Local") rather than negatively - meatLESS, eliminating something pleasant. It's all in the framing! |
We tend to have 'meatless Fridays' because my wife was brought up as a Roman Catholic, and there's something about having fish only on fridays. Never mind that fish tends to have higher meat per weight ratio than most other animals, logic never seems to apply in the case of fish versus meat discussion.
I'm all for reducing my meat intake, when the alternative presented is attractive: nothing like a gooey maccaroni pie or spaghettini with spinach. But I'll never voluntarily become a vegetarian. Not when steak tartar is listed as one of my favourite treats! |
I guess everyday is meatless for me. But I'd rather think of it as Veggie-licious. I know, Veggie-licious Vednesdays!
For that matter, what's wrong with Fridays? It's a long-standing Catholic tradition to do without meat on Fridays during lent... |
To each their own, eating healthy is good; but I'm a lifelong devoted carnivore.
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Next up Fruitless Tuesday and Vegetabless Thursday.
For some reason reading this just makes me thing it has its roots in something far different then the marketed face, perhaps a stab from PETA to kill slaughterhouses or something likewise. But the public facing side is nicely packaged to appeal to your instincts of "be healthier!" and "meat is bad, be kind to animals!". There's a flip-side to everything, sure too much meat is bad, but the same is true of too much of anything. But yea, as said above, I like meat it's part of my diet, sure I go days without it but I'm not going to schedule myself around such a thing, particularly when it screams of ulterior motives. |
I, too, like meat and have no desire to cut it out of my diet on a permanent or scheduled basis. However, completely coincidentally as I have never heard of 'meatless Monday', I did not eat any meat today.
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I have to say I am not surprised by the reactions. People are attached to their meat consumption the way NRA members are attached to guns... cold, dead hands and all that.
Have a look at the statistics. Look at what the industrial production of meat is doing to our environment. Have look at how much more meat we are eating today than we were eating say, 20 years ago. We don't need to eat as much meat as we are eating. We want to... Is it too much to suggest that perhaps we should eat a little less meat? Nobody is asking you to be vegetarian. Rather, take a day and have some pasta with some veg. Why not make a nice risotto with butternut squash? Don't get me wrong. I love meat. I eat it all. I will also eat just about anything between the nose and tail (love me some offal). I just think we need to eat a little more responsibly. I don't think most of us even concern ourselves with where our food comes from, let alone the impact it's having on ourselves or our environment. Perhaps it's time we did. |
Do what you want. Leave me alone.
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Too late for me to go meatless today. But there are plenty of days that I don't eat meat. My kids and I are not big meat eaters. Not exactly vegetarian either. We just don't eat a lot of red meat.
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While I can agree that North American's consume too much meat, and that many methods of animal husbandry are environmentally devastating, I certainly am not going to fall for the idea that it is easy, healthy, or more environmentally friendly to be a vegetarian.
The richness needed in a vegetarian diet is not natural. It cannot be maintained without fossil fuels, mass exchanges of agricultural products, the importation of foreign species, and the modification of traditional food cultures. Humans are omnivores evolved to consume seasonally limited plant food (seeds, nuts, tubers, and fruit ... not grains), augmented by the consumption of animal flesh to provide nutrients essential to our development. Excessive meat consumption is not natural because hunting is energy and time intensive -- though the nutritional rewards are high -- so we have no evolved to consume the level of meat we do. |
I'm all for it, as it saves me a serving of benefibermetamucilcolonblow. Because I love meat so much I'm willing to SUFFER for it!
But seriously, I can do a day without meat. One day out of the week will not make me frail or make my bones brittle. It also makes sense financially, considering how expensive good quality meat is nowadays. |
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I don't ascribe to the "you must eat locally" idea either. In some cases, the imported food is less environmentally damaging. Like many in this thread, you seem to be focusing on turning vegetarian rather than simply having one meatless day a week. Is it really that hard to do? No. Quote:
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All right, I've typed a paragraph and then deleted it four times now. My basic point in all of them was, "sure, do what you'd like, but don't get all pissy and mean about it." I don't get why one day without meat is such a HUGE TERRIBLE THING. Yes, I'm vegetarian, but I wasn't always...and a day or two a week with no meat was hardly a catastrophe. |
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Oh, and all you vegetarians can line up for SAUSAGE SATURDAY!!!!! After all, one day with meat would not be a HUGE TERRIBLE THING! Lindy |
Here's the thing.
Humans, as pointed out somewhere above, are omnivores. We are not carnivores. This quote by Micheal Pollan sums up things nicely: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." If you break it down: Eat Food: Don't eat things that your Great-grandmother wouldn't recognize as food. Not too much: Portion control. Mostly Plants: Cut down on the over-consumption of meat. This is not to say, stop eating meat. Quite the contrary, keep eating meat just eat more plants. Also see: Not too much. |
the entire green movement has at this point become a sham, a corporate advertisement and nothing more, other than a way for the trendy to feel better about their consumption... not to mention how incredibly fucked we will be when India and china catch up with the US in terms of middle class... their level of consumption will so dwarf ours that the whole argument will be rendered pointless.... but a few good resource wars may well sort that all out anyway.... so myself, I will try from now on to eat more meat on Mondays.....
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I am having a hard time changing my food intake, and permanently changing what foods I eat and how, so choosing not to eat meat on a specific day just wouldn't work for me.
I eat based on my cravings. Its a bad thing to do, I know. But if I want tuna, dammit all, I'll find some! If I want a hamburger, I'll get one that day at some point. I don't want meat at every meal, but when my stomach asks for it, I obey. |
Let's put aside for the moment that I could give a rat's ass about any Green Movement. I simply see this (Meatless Monday) as a step on the path to healthier eating, better management of our resources (plants and animals) and movement to eating better food (to get better meat one will have to accept that it cannot be farmed on an industrial scale which means scaling back the amount we all consume in the first place).
All of that aside, why the fuck wouldn't business people seek to profit from the so-called Green Movement? Your post intimates that any involvement by big business invalidates the net effect. If there is no net effect to the positive in the the products and services you purchase, you are purchasing the wrong things. You appear to have a case of blaming the co-opter. As for India and China, yes, they are a concern, but I can tell you that per capita, there a many more vegetarians in India than there are in the US. Why not work to develop a better way for all of us to use our resources? There are efficiencies to be had (read: profits) why not find them rather than continuing down the path we are headed? Oddly, despite suggesting we will be "incredibly fucked" when India and China catch up to the US levels of consumption, you appear to say that as they are going to do it anyway, so should we. How do you rationalize that? Either you think it's bad or it's not. And if you recognize it as bad, why not work to change things. Sorry for the threadjack but post that attempt to be all rebellious and shit just annoy. |
Kind of backwards to attack big business when that is exactly why everyone thinks we need to be eating so much meat and dairy. The only reason the food pyramid (that gets taught in schools) looks the way it does is because of the industry lobby.
Besides... the "green movement" as it is being attacked here is more of a post-Al Gore thing. More of an energy thing than a food politics thing. Vegetarianism and veganism pre-date it by decades. The appeal to evolution is sad for someone living in modern society using a computer. We didn't evolve to do a lot of the things we do. Couldn't polygamy be defended by an evolution argument? We have evolved the ability to progress socially, and to me that means finding an alternative to slaughtering billions of animals and destroying our oceans (ever heard of the term "bycatch?" - look it up). I've done my best to opt out of eating animals and animal products/secretions entirely and been vegan for two and a half years now, and I know it's not for everyone... but suggesting you go a day without meat and seeing all this resistance and defensiveness is bewildering, especially when you can replace it with eggs and cheese. |
A few of America's problems would be are more manageable if the average American adopted a more plant-based diet. Though it should be said that the same thing goes for Canada to a certain extent.
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As I said, I work in a beef processing plant, I earn my living by people eating meat, we do the whole thing, from slaughtering to processing, I have no desire to not eat meat on a certain day just because someone wanted to use a catchy phrase like 'meanless monday'. |
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I think the challenge for those resistant to the idea of Meatless Monday isn't so much about reducing meat intake as it is eliminating it, even be it for a day. I understand your attachment to meat given your vocation. I just don't see the disadvantage of the average person moderating their meat intake. I know this might have an economic impact on your industry, but it has done reasonably well for a really long time, hasn't it? |
silent, this is where I have a problem with the whole thing. I find that most people preach something and the message that comes to me is, "I don't have to change, YOU have to change."
And that's the crux of the reactions to me, change isn't easy, it's stressful and hard. When it just happens by itself it's a good thing. I sometimes find I didn't eat any meat on a particular day by accident more and more because I'm being more conscious about my diet. |
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if it's not wrong, why should i need to change my diet habits for the sake of a cool trend? I'm going to start a 'dont love your children on sundays' day and see how many mothers email me in the space of 60 seconds |
Well I LOVE eating red meat. A steak can't be cooked rare enough for me. To give it up completely would only happen if there was no way out.
That said there are plenty of days that I forego meat consumption, but that's not a conscious choice that I make, it just so seems to happen. Mostly though I seem to need that "substance" to a meal, whether it would be sushi with salmon and tuna or chicken/pork or steak. When I eat a sandwich for lunch and a salad for dinner, for some reason it isn't quite as satisfying or filling as good protein filled red meat. The reactions surprise me too, in a way that people tend to be very vocal if you try to make them do something and they personally don't see an immediate gain in it. |
It's not about meat.
Human history is replete with religious and political charlatans who developed a devout following by insisting that they had discovered the Truth; a truth that must be adopted by all, lest civilization perish. The apocalyptic "join or die" message appeals to the fundamental human need to be connected; to be part of that universal something that is bigger than ourselves. Unfortunately, an ideology that proclaims superiority and finality lends itself to totalitarianism. Dissent is not tolerated and dissenters are deemed, at best, morally defective, and, at worse, possessed by Evil. |
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So preventable human diseases aren't a problem? So the money spent on preventable human diseases isn't a problem? So dependency on Middle Eastern oil isn't a problem? I'm seriously wondering. Because you're right; it's not about meat. |
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There is more than one way to be environmentally conscious. It's more about getting the most impact for the least pain.
Over the last 11 years, I've dropped my electrical usage by 50% and my non-recyclable garbage output by twice that. My cars are as efficient as is practical for where I live. The effort and cost involved was not trivial; but was something that I was willing to do. Giving up pig and cow is not something I'm willing to do. |
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Your socially progressive ways might turn you psychologically into a vegetarian/vegan. But all the biophysical evidence points to humans having been, and continuing to be, omnivores. |
I'm mildly surpised by peoples reactions, but then the more I think about it the less suprised I was.
I'm in. Absolutly. I'm factoring it in my head and my schedual right now. No, I suppose it doesnt' have to be Mondays, it could be fridays or tuesdays or saturdays. But I'm down with the premise for sure, absolutly. I've been looking up ways to get healthier and be healthier for me and the environment, and while I do enjoy meat, quite a bit actually, I know that's gotta be one of the first things to go. I've been finding vegetarian recipies latel and yeah, Im gonna use them. I'm in. Absolutly. Meatless Mondays here I come. Thanks for a little extra push and a little extra encouragement and info snowy! |
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When I crave red meat,
I want it raw. It's much easier to digest, and satisfies my inner carnivore. It's important for me then, to know where and how it's being processed. Local organic buffalo/beef farms etc. When I used to deer hunt, I was well supplied. I have these cravings about once a month, especially when the moon is full. |
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This thread wasn't meant to send the message of "BE VEGETARIAN OR ELSE!" nor was it meant to be preachy. Remember, I am not a vegetarian, nor do I want to be. It was meant to show some of the consequences of eating a diet that contains too much meat, and there ARE consequences. I'm glad Charlatan mentioned Michael Pollan's guidelines. I try to adhere to those, as I find them easy to follow. |
Personal & environmental health issues are being raised by these programs. Kudos.
"1,000 lb cow weaning a 550 lb calf will need 13 AUM's to sustain the grazing system 13 AUM time 780 lb/AUM equals 10,140 lb of forage, let's estimate 35% harvest efficiency of the forage so the cow will need 10,140 / .35 = 28,971 lb of forage. If your pasture can produce 3 tons of forage/acre (6,000 lb/acre), then 28,971/6000=4.82 acres/cow Cross-fencing, supplemental feeding, winter hay, silage, etc. will adjust the number of acres." |
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I'll go some days where I don't eat meat at all, but there are others where that's all I eat. Sometimes I crave meat, others I don't. But for now, I can't get the image out of my head of silent_jay grazing on meat being processed at his job, like they were grapes in a supermarket. :thumbsup: /Hamburger Humpday |
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my day without meat does become meanless, as does my meal if i dont get my meat. There's no better feeling that pickle muscle fibres out with a tootpick after a medium rare topside steak. |
Again, it's amazing how many people hear reduce and think abolish. Nobody in this thread (except maybe Aberkok) is suggesting you become a vegetarian. Far from it. As I have said a few times now, I love meat. I don't want to do without it.
What I want is good meat that is reared in a sustainable way. Current industrial practices, from the over production of corn to vast feed lots of cattle, are not sustainable. Yes, it keeps food cheap. But it also leads to outbreaks of e-coli (a direct result of raising cattle on a diet of corn, something their digestive system was not made to handle), environmental degradation and an increased reliance of foreign oil supply. There are many negative externalities that are not factored into the low cost of food at US supermarkets. Eventually those bills are going to come due. To be clear: this isn't about become a vegetarian. For me, this is about working to move away from unsustainable practices. Perhaps it's time that the US started to spend a little more money on food. |
Mock duck is good.
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to clarify my position, we are going to run into a hell of a problem, regardless of what the US does or how many people cry over the amount of grain that the cows that we eat with such gusto consume- And that is in fact not a good thing, but it is a necessary thing if we are going to develop anything like a solution to our resource and consumption problems- these are HUGE problems, so large that most of the world simply ignores them or is too busy trying to simply survive... so like every other problem that has ever smacked us in the head, this one is going to, and it will at the least change lifestyles across the globe, even if it does not result in wars and some general chaos... So I see most of the green movement as a futile gesture, more like slapping a bandaid on an arterial wound and telling the patient that he will be fine, than doing ANYTHING that will have a real effect..... But I believe that we are smart and adaptable as a species, if forced to be, and that the coming shortage of resources due to the near inevitable development of a gigantic middle class in both india and china (and a lot of other countries as well) Should force us to adapt and change..... Out of the inevitable bad, I see the potential for good, but only with a lot of bad first...... Oh- as to your idea that we spend a bit more on food, I would rather see that money spent on developing more sustainable crops and more healthy, yet still cheap foods.... hell, most of us Americans are fat due to two things- 1- we are reared in such a low impact environment that we have little or no exercise to begin with, and get less as we age- 2 we eat cheap food that is horrible for us- would it be impossible to develop cheap food that is not so horrible???? really, it seems that with our ridiculous amounts of available funding, we should work toward that, for self preservation if nothing else.....
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The funny thing is, the US already spends the least amount of money on food as a percentage of income than any other nation. It hovers around 8-10%. It would be lower if the trend of eating outside of the home hasn't grown to about 50% of that expenditure (I could be off on that 50% but it's what I recall... the important fact is that since the 60s Americans have increase the amount of money they spend on eating outside the home). Canada is around 14% of food as a percentage of income while many other nations are somewhere between 20% to 50% food as a percentage of income. The US can afford to spend a little more on better food. It will save the system a lot of money in negative externalities (such as health care and environmental damage). That said, I don't see the political, personal or any sort of will or interest in making these changes. Cheaper is better and hang the consequences! Consume less meat?! When they pry my knife and fork from my cold dead hands! :lol: ---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ---------- A couple of good TED Talks on these issues. Graham Hill: Why I'm a weekday vegetarian | Video on TED.com Mark Bittman on what's wrong with what we eat | Video on TED.com |
I should point out that I absolutely love stir fried tofu- and like you I do not see the will to make cheap food healthy- while we are at it, a lot of Americans are barely hanging on economically, telling them to spend more on food will get a less than enthusiastic response, and that is why it amazes me that no one has fought for this- cheap, bad for us food is easy, but I do not believe that it is impossible to make healthy food that is cheap and tastes good, it simply has not been on the freaking radar for anyone to try- maybe now would be a great time to do so..... before we are all so fat that we have to roll to the local mcdonalds for dinner......
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And thanks for the TED talks - I will definitely give them a look-see. (I love TED!) |
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Here is food for thought: Quote:
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...fp/pyramid.jpg PCRM >> Good Medicine Magazine >> Health vs. Pork: Congress Debates the Farm Bill >> Autumn 2007 |
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Still, though. A meatless day isn't exactly hard to do. |
I dont know why but when i hear of things like Meatless Mondays, it makes me want to go the other direction.
Therefore I am adopting a Double Meat Monday diet. Thats right the Carl's Jr Western Bacon Cheeseburger would suffice for Tues-Sunday but not on Mondays. Needs to be the Double Western Bac Cheeseburger. |
Hope you enjoy the eventual CHD that comes with such a meal.
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I'm dating a vegetarian, when we cook for each other its always vegetarian... so I usually have meatless or mostly meatless weekends.
dont feel the need to designate a day for not eating meat... I usually go several days during the week without any meat. why specify a day for something thats a normal occurrence. |
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Let's say there's a movement to make Monday a "Turn Off the TV and Read" Day. Let's say the movement is meant to help young people and older people alike with their literacy. Let's say it is a way to help support local and national culture. Let's say it's sold as a rewarding experience that cannot be offered by TV, and that studies show that too much TV and not enough reading is bad for you. Let's also say that Americans watch 4 hours of TV a day on average. The "other direction" in this case would be to adopt a Double TV Day, where one would go ahead and watch 8 hours of TV instead of the usual 4. In other words, indulge if you like...but you're going to miss out on the ultimate point of such a movement. That is, however, your choice to make. In my opinion, 8 hours of TV in one day would be akin to peering into a void, or perhaps into the death of the human spirit. I do like the sound of a double cheeseburger though. But it's not like I eat a hamburger 7 days a week though. It would be an odd thing for me to eat meat once a day for 7 days straight. I probably have meat on average 4 to 5 days a week.... maybe 4 to 10 servings total in a week. [It varies: it wouldn't be a big deal to me to go a whole week without meat.] If I were normally eating 2 or 3 servings of meat a day, I think the idea of a double cheeseburger would seem rather different. In situations where I do end up eating 10 servings of meat in a week—which is rare—I tend to lean towards wanting meatless meals for a while. I go in cycles. I get "meat overload" at times and will go essentially vegetarian to balance things out. |
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I think another point of a campaign like this is to help those that may want to eat less meat for various reasons, but think their only other option is "rabbit food". If they hear that local restaurants and such are participating in 'meatless Mondays', perhaps they'll check it out and perhaps it'll help them do what they may already wish to do but are too lazy (ie, go buy a vegitarian cook book or something) to do on their own.
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My first thought is "Meatless Monday" why the hell would I want to do that?
But when I think about it, here's the thing I do eat meatless meals from time to time and enjoy them BUT I do love meat. A lot. Why would I want to make my Monday worse than it is already by intentionally not having meat? Also as far as restaurants having Meatless Monday, the truth is I just wouldn't go. If I want a veggie meal from a restaurant I'll go to a place that I already go to on a fairly regular basis and is vegetarian and so I know they can do it right. |
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Lindy |
Here's an article about how subsidies effect the price of meat: Unfair fare: Why prices for meat from small local farms are too high :: The Ethicurean: Chew the right thing.
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Charlatan's link is a good start. You could also do your own research. Have a look at ground beef prices and then compare it to the prices of grains, vegetables, and fruit (per pound, say). Do you see anything odd? Do you realize how many resources are required to produce just one pound of beef vs. a pound of grain vs. a pound of vegetables? Now take a look at organic produce. Chances are it isn't subsidized at all. |
I never thought about how much meat I ate until this thread...I guess while I was in Lubbock I ate it occasionally in the dorm. This year things have been considerably different in regards to my eating habits. I eat pretty much every meal with Matt which requires a meat or fish of some sort. He is not keen on going without. Not to mention we enjoy cooking steaks together, curry, or whatever else that happens to come on the menu. When it comes to the kind of cut of meat...well that's a new subject entirely.
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Why not just adhere to a sensible diet? "Sensible Diet Saturday"? Of course meat is bad for you if you're inhaling it by the pound every time you open your mouth, its wasteful and unhealthy...as are most things when you over do it. Eat a balanced diet with reasonable (ie small) portions and voila, you're eating healthier and making the planet a better place. It seems like a bizarre thing to get hung up on in my opinion.
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More Moo for me!!!
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There is a lot of focus on CAFOs and the harmful effects they have on the environment. While I do not disagree that CAFOs are rather disgusting I believe I would be doing a huge injustice to make a statement that CAFOs are the only aspect of industrial farming that negatively impact the environment. Toxic fertilizers, insecticides, herbicides, all running off into our waterways polluting our in ground and surface waterways. Pollution which will generate damaging blooms of oxygen-depleting microorganisms that disrupt ecosystems and kill fish. Nitrogen compounds following the Mississippi from Midwestern farms degrading coastal fisheries and creating a large "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico where aquatic life cannot survive. And for what? Just like antibiotic overuse, these insecticides and herbicides have over time become less and less effective from overuse.
Of course, we could all increase our fish intake right? This is supposed to be healthier. Sadly, most of the fish in North American markets come from fisheries which are more or less cesspools of toxic sludge will produce the same issues of other farming techniques. Overcrowding, overuse of antibiotics and antimicrobials and other treatments to produce "healthier fish". Care to order a side of Mercury with your salmon? Eating as little as one fish sandwich could provide 40% of the safe maximum of mercury exposure. One Canadian study found that a single serving of farmed salmon contains three to six times the World Health Organization’s daily intake limit for dioxin and PCBs. Mmm, yum. Of course we could switch to wild caught, right? Wild caught fishing would be much better for the environment, trawling the bottom of the waterways, bringing up blooms of algae, choking out life of other creatures, damaging our coral reefs. Overfishing of certain species leading to the depletion of creatures dependent on them for survival. Of course we could switch to all organic, right? I know one woman who has a daughter who is allergic to nearly everything. In hopes for better health, her mother has opted to purchase all organic for this one daughter. For that child alone, she spends over $400/month on groceries. Is this manageable for the average family? Of course even then, one must put on their thinking cap and plow through the many misleading phrases used in the Organic Movement. "Natural", "All Natural", "Made with Organic Ingredients", yes even "Free-range" and "Free-roaming" are misleading. Of course, is it really better for the environment having been shipped 2,000 miles? Instead of meatless Mondays, I am led to believe that to truly make an impact it must be Meal-less Mondays. Or perhaps Anorexic August, or even Abortion April. There are too many people on this planet, consuming like locusts. This is not limited to food, people. How many people take things to the repair shop these days? No, we throw it out instead. We need the latest and greatest in technology and instead of upgrading with a part or fixing what is broken, we toss out the entire object and get new. Do we really need to be plugged in to everything all the time? Do you really need that new cell-phone? Can't you walk the three blocks to the store when you only need butter? Do you really need a new car, or could you just take it in for a tune-up? |
Ayashe, a simple solution to the problems you've focused on is: grow your own. Of course, this isn't practical for many people; however, this idea is taking off even in very urban areas (rooftop gardens). While I have space for raised beds, I don't have the funds to put them in. The solution: container gardening. Obviously, with this, you cannot grow all of your own food in a small space, but you can grow some of it, which is better than nothing at all, right?
Organic is also not the only answer; I'm not sure we can raise all of the food this planet needs to feed people via strictly organic methods. I too find that many people don't bother to critically think about the labels on food. I think perhaps we would benefit most from increasing the health literacy (i.e. how to read labels, what terms are clearly defined by the government, etc) of people. The anecdote you provided seems to be clear evidence of a lack of understanding as to what organic can and cannot do. Further, your anecdote shows the lack of understanding that is out there about food allergies (please don't get me started). Many of the things you discussed in your post are why we try our best to eat what's grown within 100 miles of home. This also means eating seasonally. That's not much of a hardship--hothouse tomatoes taste okay, but not nearly as good as an heirloom in the peak of tomato season. |
Snowy, even rooftop gardens are not possible where I live. Most apartment complexes do not offer their tenants that opportunity as they prefer to avoid liability and damage. It is a worthwhile suggestion, though unlikely.
I do agree that many people not only do not know how to read labels, but are completely unaware of how to cook. We unfortunately live in a world where most people seem to prefer to cook from a box or can. While I could list each and every ingredient that fills me and those I cook for, most people would be describing cans and boxes of substances I would not describe as food. Some people, simply don't care to put forth any effort. I am uncertain how you come about your decision on my lack of understanding about allergies as I have barely discussed the topic. My point was not the allergies so much as the expense her mother incurred. For most families, that would be unaffordable. I have yet to know an Immunologist or well, any doctor, who has recommended an organic or meat-free diet (unless the allergy was to meat itself) for allergies-sake. If you would like to talk about RAST testing,immunodeficiency diseases, IgE levels, proper infant feeding etc, that would be incredibly off-topic for this thread. Presume much? I love farmer's markets. They are an enjoyable experience. Unfortunately again, they are not available year-round here. Depending upon the market, they are no guarantee that the items sold there are local. Believe it or not, many have tried to pass off food items that have been grown elsewhere. Deceptive practices can happen everywhere, even in your own neighborhood. While some have cracked down on such behaviors, it is still possible. Another problem is that while there may be many farmer's markets nearby, some of them have ridiculous hours. 2-4pm on Tuesday, does not work for me. Going farm to farm for my shopping, simply is not practical. I believe you completely missed the point of my original post. We leave our footprints on this earth whether we eat as omnivores, vegetarians, vegans. It is a false sense of security to state blindly that eating meatless or reducing your meat intake is going to so easily lesson the problems we are causing our environment. To do so, farming techniques overall must change, not simply at the feedlot. Unfortunately, I am not convinced that it is even possible to do so at a level that will make a difference and produce enough. |
It wasn't YOUR lack of understanding about food allergies I was pointing out; rather, the mother of the allergic child. Typical food allergens are present in a food regardless of whether it's conventionally grown or organic. Presume much?
I've spent several months now researching the topic of obesity in this country, and you're precisely right on the score that most people either a) lack the skill to cook, or b) don't care to put forward the effort. I'd add a third category of people who do not have time to cook, or rather think that cooking would take too much time. I have developed a school-based intervention aimed at combating some of these myths about cooking. My hope is to someday acquire grant funding to make this school-based intervention a reality, so that I can help adolescents learn how to cook and read labels, among other things. As for reselling at farmer's markets, yes, that's all too believable, unfortunately. Good markets generally have rules about resellers, but good markets aren't available everywhere. I'm fortunate to live in a part of the country where the farmer's market scene is taken very seriously and resellers are not allowed; some established farmers are allowed to resell produce, but only under very strict guidelines. I suppose I am more optimistic, and think that after a while, these small changes must add up to something. Besides, the food tastes better to me and I like talking to my farmers directly about what they've grown. |
I think this article belongs here, because of the talk on how food is made and the fact that I don't feel like necroing the other "I HATE MEAT! FUCK OFF, I LOVE STEAK!" thread.
Anthony Bourdain (Chef, writer, traveler, tv show host, my personal hero, and all around kitchen GOD), puts my thoughts on this issue down on paper a lot more gracefully and with more finese than I possible could. Anthony Bourdain: My War on Fast Food Quote:
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Great post, Eden. Thanks for sharing.
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Good post Eden. Bourdain, who's writing and TV show I love, has had a long running hatred for the McNugget so this really just seems like a continuation of that.
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(also can be referred as youth encounters 'DO NOT ENTER' signage, stops to ponder, ignores blatant warning, then promptly proceeds in, thus ending the world/getting a spanking.) Quote:
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The point, Jetee, as already stated, is to get the conversation started. Given the dialogue here, I would say it's been fairly successful.
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Not to get snippy here, but exactly whose point are you touting - yours, or the engineers behind this movement? (when you say the point of all this was to get the convesation started.)
Is this to what you are referring when you said it was previously stated that this thread's premise was built upon the foundation of simply a "talking point": Quote:
I get it - there is a reason why we, as the consumers need not eat and participate in a dietary-stasis of shoveling meat into our faces on a daily basis; but, as has been previously voiced by a fair number of others here, in the way this was presented, it has failed considerably as a good way to "educate others on the harms of meat production/consumption/regulation and whatever else". Even as you say, this might just be a small step towards a better tomorrow and better, healthier forms of meat for our personal enjoyment than what is currently available now, I still do not see how, conceivably, having a sparse coupling of groups reducing their intake and buyership of meat products helps the system in any way. Sure, they can easily supplement the proteins, vitamins and calories found in meat for something else, but is this the entire point (whether it be yours, or these meatless mondays guys)? I just really like to get to the root of solving whatever may wrong with things, (in this case, the way various livestock are converted into meats, sold, packaged and bought by the community) though it never really gets to the root of how to solve this: the actual production and distribution process. It's just a glaze-over "solution" if this actually reaches any good portion of our North American population to actually comply to this aim; it never gets anywhere or anything deeper than some huddled masses agreeing not to eat sandwiches or porterhouses every single second day of the week. What good is that? And whatever you or others may think, trying to bombard consumers with this sort of 'skewed advertisement' for better living projects upon the viewing audience that they are, at least, in some part ignorant of how to take care of themselves, and do not properly know how to eat sensibly. Not all may see this so negatively, but again, as seen previously remarked here, it rubs certain people in a very wrong way at how this whole campaign portrays itself. |
Well, Jetee, I'm not going to bother responding to you, because you know what? You rub me the wrong way.
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Aw, c'mon, it's Wednesday. Bon appetit!
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You are what you eat
Ok, so let's see - you are what you eat as they say...
So if cows eat grass, then cow = grass. Therefore if I eat cows, technically, it's just being a more efficient vegetarian, Jokes aside, I am a total meat eater, and I am overweight and admit to it. I do however get "meat overload" every now and then and eat a ton of vegetables in a sitting to even things out. And then sometimes I'll fast for 3-5 days just to clean the ol' system out. Funny how I notice this thread just as the thought crosses my mind if I could go meatless for a week. I was actually planning out the meals in my head. |
I eat a paleo/low carb diet and am healthier for it. Eating a vegetarian or vegan is arguable worse for your health, makes us poorer from government subsidies and is hard on the environment. Our current grain farming methods depend upon oil, and soil erosion to be possible and are unsustainable.
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I also want to point out that vegan/vegetarian diets are far better than the average North American diet in terms of use of subsidies and the impact on the environment. This is mainly because of the amount of grain required to raise meat vs. eating the grain directly. ...not to mention the impact of waste byproducts created by animal producers. |
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Vegans are not spared from the contempt I have for the horrors that humanity inflicts upon plantkind.
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i dont think anyone's spared a thought for the farmers here.
sure, we can go meatless for a day. We could go a week if we really tried. But will it make a difference? Not really. This world is all about the power of the market. what do i mean? Well, the farmers have a set overhead usually that they must cover in order to make a budgetted profit. You reduce the turnover for them, and they'll be forced to automatically increase the cost/kilo of meat. The less meat thats on the market, the more expensive it's going to be. Thats the law of the market. On the other hand, i do recall a few years ago now when petrol prices shot through the roof, some groups tried to influence the buying habits of motorists and the selling prices of the service stations by not buying petrol on a certain day . What motorists did instead was buy the same amount of petrol the day before or the day later. It made no difference in the consumption of petrol because people did what they usually do and service themselves with whatever resources they need to get by everyday. My point? people will buy whatever meat they want/need and Meatless Mondays will die like a rack of lamb ribs..with veggies of course. |
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It's not like most people are going to do Monday by avoiding their usual 1 lb. of meat only to eat 2 lbs. the next day, or in advance eat 2 lbs. on Sunday...or even split it up and eat 1.5 lbs. on Sunday and 1.5 lbs. on Tuesday. They're "skipping" meat that day and replacing the calories with plant-based food. It's not like motorists stockpiling gasoline that they will burn anyway; it's replacing one energy source with another. And about the laws of the market: no one knows these more than lobby groups and governments. They seem to know how to keep the price of animal products artificially low for consumers via subsidies....at least in North America. This is what I discussed in post #54 above. Tax payers are essentially paying to have the price tags on meat show up lower than it really should be. Even vegans pay for that wonderful service. |
I did, dlish (as well as in aberkok's thread on vegan substituism, though in different words, yet still towards the same coincidental aim) but was quickly told off because I just expressed my opinion wrongly (or too longly).
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So basically, if you start by reducing your meat consumption by 13% with Meatless Mondays, and then take it a step further by reducing it by yet another 7% (which is about another 2 or 3 days per month), you are doing the equivalent of switching from your regular car to a hybrid (so says Harris/Pollan). If you're not familiar with Michael Pollan, he's also the author of The Omnivore's Dilemma. The book examines how humans, as omnivores in a modern world, have such a wide selection of food to choose from, thus creating a dilemma: what to eat? His following book, In Defense of Food, helps answer the question. The simple answer? "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." 'In Defense of Food' Author Offers Advice For Health : NPR |
Perhaps this piece will answer some questions for folks about "why Meatless Monday."
Thanks to SecretMethod70 for the link. Campaign Aims To Make Meatless Mondays Hip : NPR Quote:
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I am biased toward reduced meat intake, but I do enjoy eating meat as well.
People that want to eat meat every day regardless of health, environmental, and economic benefits are clearly not the target audience here. "Meatless Monday" can be an effective way for those that are interested in changing their lifestyles get started. It doesn't really seem like a huge change, and the catchy slogan evokes the marketing of "Taco Tuesday" or "Pizza Fridays." Anyone that hates tacos is obviously not going to eat tacos because it's Tuesday, but those that enjoy the occasional taco may be inclined to eat one because of the marketing. It's a reminder that you enjoy something, and while it may not be an everyday sort of thing, it can be a once-a-week plan. Some may argue that there's no reason why it should be held on one specific day of the week, but specifying can increase solidarity for those involved. It can be a major lifestyle change for people to reduce their meat intake, even if it is something they desire to do. So, those that participate in "Meatless Mondays" can have support from their friends and neighbors that are also trying to eat less meat. At worst, the campaign will make people think about what they are eating, and at best, it will help people that wish to eat less meat change their lifestyles one step at a time. |
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But, this also plays into quite a bit of assumptions, the most prominent being that perhaps each person's diet is uniformally the same, as well as static. The 13% reduction figure is based on a pie figure of statistics that, ideally, may not even exist in the real world. Days change, circumstances change, our cravings and wants for food change. If we were rationed two ounces of meat to eat every month, and told to eat it for that day, or throw it away the next, then fine, I might believe the reduction, but does it serve the better towards everyone if they be told to not eat meat products on a weekly routine schedule (Lenten-observers aside)? Also, I wasn't talking about the solution in terms of people, B_G, but they are free to eat and follow these regulations if they feel it "helps" some obscure cause of theirs, but I was more talking in terms of nationwide meat production, as well as consumption. It won't change unless the price / availability factors were to shift dramatically. |
My figures were more or less to demonstrate in a measurable way how a modest reduction of meat intake can have a direct impact.
Also, you raise a good point about national consumption patterns vs. individual considerations. If the U.S. (and Canada, actually) were to eliminate or equally redistribute food subsidies, the average American would have a greater incentive (or less of a disincentive, where applicable) to eat a larger proportion of plant foods on a daily basis. Also, education is factor. How educated is the public with regard to the effects of a diet too high in cholesterol and saturated fat and too low in fibre and essential vitamins and minerals? Not to forget about diets too high in calories as well. |
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From a paper I wrote on the subject of adolescent obesity: "A lack of health literacy skills and nutritional education is a major factor in adolescent obesity. Sanders, Shaw, Guez, Baur, and Rudd (2009) found that parents with insufficient health literacy skills were less likely to read nutrition labels. Furthermore, another study found that almost 75% of parents of overweight children thought that their children were underweight or of normal weight (Sanders, 2009)." I didn't address the issue of prevalence of poor health literacy in my paper, but the article cited by Sanders, Shaw, Guez, Baur, and Rudd (2009) does. You can find a link to it here: Health Literacy and Child Health Promotion: Implications for Research, Clinical Care, and Public Policy -- Sanders et al. 124 (3): S306 -- Pediatrics The article states that "at least 1 in 3 US adults has limited health literacy." |
Snowy, that's appalling. I had my suspicions, but that's....sad.
I had my own interesting experience with my SO being away for 2.5 weeks. For a good chunk of that time, I decided to eat "like a bachelor": frozen dinners, canned dinners, hot dogs, nachos, etc. The amount of sodium found in these products is disgusting. Even in the kid's food. Even in the "healthy choices"! How does a company put 900 mg of sodium into a 280 calorie "meal" and call it healthy? I can't seem to recall if there was always so much sodium in these things. But my tastes have likely changed. One of these Asian-styled entrees had a sauce that I could best describe as a spicy salt sauce. I wish I were exaggerating. They could seriously have put half the amount of sodium and it would have tasted far better. That's just sodium (and it's everywhere). Needless to say, I'm moving back to "normal." I just bought a tub of baby spinach, some broccoli slaw, some raw almonds, and some raisins. ...some unsweetened almond milk...12-grain bread...almond butter.... you get the picture. Unfortunately, few Americans appear to be. |
Being ignorant and/or evasive to complete nutritional health is not directly correlational to one's body being in poor health.
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I've been meaning to eply to the above since the day after, but I kept forgetting about it.
Keeping it short: last week, around Thursday or Friday, I caught a small segment of Public Access Television's TV 411. One of the small segments they ran was about nutrition, as well as how to better educate one's self when reading the ubiquitous black-and-white "Nutritional Facts" chart, found on nearly all prepackaged foods (by law). The point I was making, in contradiction to your oddly-superlative statement previously that such a statistic was appalling to your faculties, had to do with the 'common sense' practice put into use by a fair portion of the North American population. Just because someone doesn't know that an average man's daily recommended intake of proteins should be 60-65 grams, (I didn't even know this "supposed" fact until last week) while a woman's should be closer to 50 grams per day, well does that make them any less worse for the wear, or unhealthier? It can stand to reason that it might be of benefit to some to keep this in mind, but not everybody needs to know this trivial concern of allotments, and certainly doesn't need to abide by them. For the most part, in my idealized picture of North American consumers and regular eaters: I think that if they are alive, can smile and seem generally well-fit, as do most of the thousands of people I see in a given day, then I assume that they can fend for themselves, and a have relative knowledge of the two rules: "eat a li'l bit of everything" and "it's fine in moderation". |
I agree Jet, I certainly think having a working understanding of basic nutrition is helpful, but beyond that how important is it or should it be to the average person? Looking at what you're eating with just a little common sense can go a long way towards being healthy and I think most people could do that, they either don't care to or can't. I'm absolutely clueless about how many calories I should be eating in a day, how many servings of vegetables, meat or carbs I should be eating, I don't think I've read a nutrition label in years but I seem to be doing okay, I'm healthy, of normal weight, my blood pressure is great...
People could be much healthier as proper diet and exercise is so stupidly simple but I find it baffeling why people either can't or wont. |
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To tie this back to the Meatless Mondays thing: it's about breaking patterns and habits. To think consciously about what constitutes a good meatless meal requires thinking differently than usual. Eating in moderation is good, as is eating diversely. However, not enough Americans are doing this. I read recently that something like 17,000 new "food products" are created every year in the States. Which is interesting. It's not that they're discovering new types of natural foods to grow. It's something else entirely, and Americans are literally eating it right up. |
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