Grancey

Alabama Gov. Candidate Tim James: "We Speak English. If You Want to Live Here, Learn It"

I can't believe this arrogant ass. He went to my high school, and he was an idiot then and he is an idiot now.
People like this, who are in the minority, give the South a bad name.

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Jetée

Gawker also picked this story up.

Anyway, this is nothing new, at least in my opinion. Southern rednecks, especially in the areas around Oklahoma, Texas, and Alabama, have this weird tick that sets them off: it's foreign immigrants who they vehemently believe "refuse" to learn English, just to make life hard on them. There was a thread somewhere near Tilted Entertainment that was going the same way as well.

The thing is, up until 3 or 4 hundred years ago, those states belonged to either France, Spain, or Mexico, so the whole "be American and speak American, or get up and move on" shtick is really a contradiction, as they aren't the real Americans who were there for generations before.

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—Mohandas K. Gandhi

genuinegirly

My husband's grandfather moved from Quebec to the United States soon after he married his American bride. He was so proud of his American citizenship, he refused to speak anything other than English. The only problem with that resolution was that, at first, he only knew about 5 words. He made it work, though, and he quickly learned the language. His stubbornness shaped the opinions of his children - a bit too much.

Perhaps this politician's background is similar?

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Idyllic

o.k., Research Port St. Joe, FL, (the original capital) or maybe St. Augustine, FL (the oldest U.S. City). N. Fl is far more southern than you think, we are the "Red Neck Riviera".

What I wonder, is just how American your statement is, no less than theirs, you would basically kick Americans out for not acting more, in your perception, "American" hmmmm....

Not all red necks are southern and not all southerners are red necks, do you know what a real red neck is, really? They are like crackers off horses, pioneers and blue collar workers, they are Americans.

p.s. everything from Maryland down on the east is South, that would include D.C. so, I'm thinking it's not the south, it's the individual, right?

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you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Jetée

I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Perhaps you mistook my statement. I'm well-versed in my Floridian history, as I lived there for more than a decade, still visit it from time to time, and I do know my "Mason-Dixon line", as well as a whole heap of Md. and D.C. tirivial knowledge. Also, I'm not your enemy here (if that's what you were referring to, which I'm still really not sure).

I refer to rednecks as the bigoted Southerners general population who feel it is their right, because of where they were born and what was afforded to them upon birth, to stand up fro what they believe, so much so that they outcast and disparage anyone who would dare not "assimilate" to their ways, because, well, for lack of better term, there is no better way to live than as an American, "in America".
This is a redneck's "Southern Burning Pride", and it seems as though this Tim James is no different, but a true-to-life example of this sterotype.

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As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Idyllic

What I am saying is that Tim James ain't no redneck he just an ignorant man, a rreeeaaaalllll ignorant man. See, we rednecks would be far to drunk to say some shit like that and not fall over laughing, what a moron, one test...... I am a redneck, born and reared in the south, grew up in trailers and played in the bog-in mud. I lived in a small town where integration was greatly noticed, and the tracks still separated north from south of color. This disease of the uneducated shitheads isn't just a southern bug, ignorance is rampant throughout all the U.S., the world.

I am tired of the South being labeled the red headed step child, cause that don't change the fact that we is family.

Some southerners are proud of their heritage, redneck is the term for a farmer, a hard working, blue collar, piss poor, farmer. Cracker is the name for a cattle herder, cracking the whip, these labels mean an entirely different thing to many people, what you basically said was that I was a foreigner in my own home because some jack ass ignorant politician acted like a big boob and he was from the south harsh.

I don't take much personal, I don't give much personal, especially to someone I don't really know. Maybe I can get to know you and I will let you hurt my feelings then, enemy, huh?

The comment about MD south being southern was meant for "give the south a bad name" the south is a really big place, we are not all ignorant, and James does not represent the south, he represents narrow, uneducated, jerk.

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you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Shadowex3

As far as I'm concerned the English America thing is a lot like Hitler being against smoking. Just because someone you'd otherwise consider deplorable also agrees with something you would agree with doesn't mean you suddenly need to pull an about face.

So just because a lot of hick assholes also think that we should legislate English as the official language of the country and put a stop to this "No speak english" BS, usually from people who regularly attend protests where they wave another country's flag while demanding more concessions, doesn't mean I don't agree with it as well.

2/3rds of my family is spread out from Morocco to Jerusalem, not one of them has ever thought needing to know English to be a citizen or resident of America was a problem anymore than they would think learning Spanish is to do the same in Spain.

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SecretMethod70

There is a difference between a dominant language and an official language. The fact English is the dominant language is simply something people need to cope with to some degree in order to live here. Making English the official language is an outright rejection of our immigrant roots and of our melting pot culture. At this rate, over time, Spanish may very well become the dominant language of the United States. You know what? I have no problem with that. Much like I have no problem with the fact English replaced French in Louisiana, Dutch in New York, German in the northern midwest, and Spanish in the southwest. I love the fact that I live in a country that refuses to officially declare one method of communication superior to another, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

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KellyC

I hope it's just the attitude that ticks you off and not the idea.
Speaking as an immigrant, I think everybody can benefit when all of us speak English (that doesn't mean you have to forsake your native tongue, or not learn another language, by the way).

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Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
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WinchesterAA

No, we're the Americans who intelligently killed everything that was a threat to us. That is how things are accomplished.


Intelligent killing --- Group of people killing things that need to die.
Large cats, bears, etc
Aggressive tribesmen, especially the sort that scalp the women.


Unintelligent killing -- Group of people that are their own enemies, therefore they just kill eachother and anything else, pretty much.


We're the people who teamed up to tame the world around us.

We program into the world. We don't program in the world.

dippin

I really don't get this obsession with making English the official language. It really doesn't do what people think it does. Making English the official language doesn't force anyone to use or learn English. It also doesn't prevent the government from printing forms in other languages or providing programs to teach English to non-speakers. Making a language the official language of anything is largely symbolic.

settie

English is the worlds biggest bastard of a lingo. Fuck it with a rusty pole.
I wish I knew other languages.

Fremen

I think in some ways we are all rednecks, no matter where we're from.
We each have our own idiosyncrasies or mannerisms that other peoples find weird or funny.

There are other words to describe the guy from the OP link, though. Trash, being one.

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Glory's Sun

I hear this statement numerous times a day here in NC. While not every redneck is going to say it, the hardcore rednecks are notorious for saying this and worse when it comes to minorities.

I think it benefits everyone if they learn English, but I'm not going to stop people from using their native language, just as I'm not going to stop people from learning a different language other than English. I don't understand why people would get so angry at people for speaking their native tongue.

Between this and the stupidity in Arizona, I just don't understand this country anymore.

Baraka_Guru

I agree. This is xenophobia under the guise of "better business" and "public safety." I can't believe this guy is ramping up his platform with hatred and propaganda. He's doing a disservice to everyone.

What's particularly interesting---assuming he's not a rank idiot----is the thought that this kind of thing might actually work. In many parts of the world, this would have been political suicide.

Hey, now!

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

Studies have shown that the first generation of immigrants are not as likely to learn the English language as their children. I really don't see the problem with this. And I live in Florida which has a huge immigrant population, so it's not as if I don't have to 'deal' with it. I don't have much patience for people who get hung up on having to hear or see another language throughout the course of their day, let alone have to *gasp* try to communicate with them. The horror!

As for rednecks, call them what you like, but they do exist (in the millions) which is exactly why this governor is pandering in public like a fool. Nothing like a little morning reactionary rhetoric to get the bobble-heads panting and blubbering...and voting.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Glory's Sun

It's the south. Propaganda always works.

warrrreagl

One slight, teeny tiny, correction - CANDIDATE for governor, and NOT the governor. Governor Riley is bad enough as it is here in Alabama without saying that this idiot Tim James is already the governor, too.

Otherwise, the "like a fool" part is spot on.

Some perspective might help, also. When Tim James' father was governor of Alabama in the late 70's - early 80's, things got so bad that we IMPROVED our situation by bringing George Wallace back.

Take a sip of coffee and let that sink in a bit.

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mixedmedia

ah, admittedly I am not up on my Alabama governors
thanks for putting me on the right track.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

dlish

as a son of 'immigrants' i think i can agree that that immigrants need to learn the language of the land to be able to become citizens of that country. If you intend on living a life and being supported by that government, then you need to become an active member in that community. period.

I'd love to be personally responsible to ship back anyone i knew that didnt want to learn the language of the land and just sucks up the resources of the country without giving anything back to it.


what i wont have is someone telling me that as a contributing member of my community that i wasnt entitled to speak in my parents mother tongue.

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Baraka_Guru

Well, the problem (ostensibly) is not that they aren't learning English per se, but that there are government forms and other information in languages other than English, the de facto lingua franca according to this candidate.

This is not to say enough people aren't learning enough of the "language of the land" to get by. You see, when it comes to official things, especially government and banking sorts of things, the language of the land can get really difficult when it's your second language, and there is a lot at stake.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

A better approach would be to set up some sort of program to help first generations to learn the language free of charge. This isn't saying they can't speak their native tongue or that if they can't speak English they should leave, it's just saying "hey, we know you're ESL and we're here to help you." Likewise, people should be all for learning other languages other than their native tongue. Even rednecks

This would certainly help things like the banking and government things wouldn't it?

Baraka_Guru

Well, what I think this all boils down to is that traditional good ol' American practice of assimilation.

Where places like Canada continue to work with the pros and cons of a multicultural society, people in places like Alabama continue to hope for a "real American" society.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Idyllic

Hola, me llamo es cuello de rojo, mucho gracias mi agigo/as, esta usted?

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

why is it location, location, location... shouldn't it be uneducated individuals, uneducated individuals, dumb people.......

---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

p.s. resistance is futile. hehehe

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you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

rahl

Well because most rednecks live in rural area's. You don't see many people waving confederate flags on their front balconies in New York City.

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Glory's Sun

there are rednecks and bigots everywhere, however, there seems to be a higher percentage of bigotry in the south..at least towards immigrants.. arizona not withstanding

this isn't a south bashing thread, it's just a thread pointing towards a candidate that is spouting propaganda to get the republican and/or "real amerika" voters to vote in his favor.

The_Dunedan

Yeah, I'm no racist, but DAMN niggers are stupid! Crazy darkies'll fall for anything!

[/SARCASM]

Not a South-bashing thread? My ass.

Glory's Sun

So you think that if it was a NY candidate that people wouldn't be saying the same shit? People would be even more upset about it. Why is that exactly? Perhaps because a lot of what is seen and heard in the south revolves around ignorance?

I hear Nigger, Spic, darkies etc more than any other singular descriptive word every day around here. Sure, there are non-bigots and good people in the south, and there are bigots and ignorants up north, nobody is saying this is a purely southern problem. The fact that it's a southern candidate though, it will not raise too much issue and he'll probably be voted into office.

The_Dunedan

Considering how it keeps getting conveniently forgotten (in schools and message-boards) that it was Boston, MA which pioneered the use of fire-hoses and German Shepherds to break up Civil Rights marches...no, I don't think they'd be saying the same shit. I think it'd get ignored the same way Northern racism typically is. After all; they went and fought that big war to free the slaves, so Northerners can't be racist. All the movies tell me so. It's impossible.

Seen and heard by those who are incapable or unwilling to see that ignorance and racism are everywhere, and who are much more interested in having "proof" of their own prejudices and culturally-imperialist biases.

So do I. From a -vast- MINORITY of my customers and people with whom I interact daily.

Really?

Although strictly speaking this seems to be suggesting that rather than racism being a purely Southern problem, Southerners are purely racist. Either way, it's horseshit. Likewise this crap:

I recommend either of the following therapies for cranio-rectal inversion:
1: If Black, walk alone and unarmed through Little Odessa. You'll know you're in the right place when the signs change to Cyrillic and several large Ukrainian gentleman offer to assist you in returning to Africa in a box.
2: If any colour other than Black, walk alone and unarmed through Harlem. Watts or Cabrini Green will also suit for those who can't make it to NYC.

Lots of Southern folks have really begun to run out of patience with being caricatured as ignorant, racist, inbred and backwards by people who's primary motive seems to be the wish to validate their smugly self-satisfied sense of their own cultural and genetic supremacy. I'm one of 'em.

Maybe I'll just start throwing around equally-ignorant Southern stereotypes about Yankees?

Baraka_Guru

Wow, do you guys seriously hear racist slurs everyday? I can't remember the last time I heard one.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

warrrreagl

Although I can't speak for Grancey who created this thread (and Lord knows, everytime I've ever tried to speak for her, I've been dead wrong), I think I can at least explain what I believe this thread to be about.

I view this thread as a disclaimer. I think Grancey wants everybody to know that while Tim James is running around making an ass of himself, it's important for our TFP family to know that most of us proud Alabamians think he's an idiot, too. And since she went to high school with him, she has the inside track on perspective.

What the rest of you do with this thread is up to you.

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Living is easy with eyes closed.

Glory's Sun

Go right ahead and throw around your ignorant stereotypes about Yankees. Won't bother me one bit.

Seems to be a higher percentage of bigotry in the south is merely pointing out that I see it and hear it more often down here. You can't say that the notions aren't going to be there from the past, although, I will give you tons of credit on the Boston stat.

I won't fault you for being perceived a certain way and not being happy about it, but I've repeatedly said that bigotry and racism are everywhere, I was merely stating something that I see every day. Big fucking deal. You want to start throwing Yankee stereotypes out to feel like you're getting even, then go right ahead.. whatever blows your skirt.


Baraka: yes, I hear them everyday.. and not just once either.

The_Dunedan

-THAT- I have no problem with. The OP was not something with which I took issue. My problem was with the South-bashing which started soon after.

Gucci:

I'll admit I jumped your case a bit. Mea culpa. My issue was with several comments further up the thread which I saw your "not a south-bashing thread" comment as excusing. Since this does not seem to have been your intent, I apologize.

My more general points regarding anti-Southern cultural imperialism, however, stand.

Glory's Sun

Fair enough. :handshake:

Everyone around me and on here knows that I am not at all fond of the south. However, it would be wrong of me to say that I haven't met good people here and that not everyone is a bigot or a racist. It was also not my intent to run Grancey's thread into the ground or to take it somewhere where she didn't want it to go.

I don't know many people in Alabama, so I don't know if a candidate spouting this type of ignorance will be elected into office, but it wouldn't surprise me. However, this type of thing pales in comparison to the shit being considered in Arizona.

LordEden

People like this make it harder every year to consider myself a proud southern boy. Like gluv, I see the bad side of the south daily (not as much here [clinton nc], but I think it's just covered up more) and a lot of it comes from my family. When you are raised by people who hate for no other reason and religion/color, it makes it hard to "get out of" that mind frame. My family throws around racial slurs and homophobia like they are talking about the weather. I hear it from most of the clients I had at my old job and from my boss. It happens. You can be pissed about it or you can just let it slide off of you and know that YOU are the better person. That's what I try and do.

"Hope you went to the doctor recently, cause when niggercare comes into law, everyone is going to get sick and die."

"I don't like the new guy, let's drop him off in niggertown and see what happens."

People suck.

On the other hand, there are great people in the south that will stop to help you if you are the side of the road, hold doors open for people, give up a seat on a bus, or just generally be good people to complete strangers.

You take the good with the bad, just like any town/state/country/whole fucking world.

I say it now and I will always say it, I'm a proud southern boy and that ain't going to change.

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Jetée

I see now. You identify yourself as a redneck, and therefore you were offended by my generalized statements of an all-encompassing defintion of what a redneck may be. I still mean no offense, but from what I've come to learn over the decades of my travels all across the Sunbelt and Bible Belt, there are rednecks everywhere as you say, from California to Florida, even displaced as far up as in New York, and anywhere in-between. Sure, people may have different takes on what they refer to themselves as, and how they would like to be viewed, but in my experience, redneck is somewhat of a derogatory term, kind of in the same way as calling one a nerd, or a musclehead.

Some embrace the term, live by it, or try to change its meaning by example, and make it mean something not quite so stinging. But still, this debate is not about whether or not my applied definition is right, or whether I'm in the wrong for using it to describe the ignorant statements of a Southern would-be politician. It's just that his stance, along with his political ties with both his father, and siblings in the family, show something that is very akin to "be one of us, or don't be a part of this town (city, county, state) at all".

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As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Manic_Skafe

Saw this on a mailbox today. Thought it was appropriate in all it's possible meanings.

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DaveOrion

Make that 2, which is why I didnt even bother with this discussion last night. BTDT

Well said too, BTW, can I use this as a sig?

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mixedmedia

I am a lifelong southerner and I took no offense at anything that was said. Plus, I think it's pretty significant that most of the people that talked about 'southerners' here are actually southerners themselves. In addition, you can thank the southern gentleman in the OP for the most egregious negative characterization of southerners on this thread. Surely, with a little internet research, you can find an address to write and tell him so.

Back to the whole English language issue, whether someone chooses to learn the language or not is of no more consequence to 'us' than whether someone chooses to get a drivers license or finish high school. People who don't learn it, will find themselves limited - in jobs, in friendships, in communicating what they want on their steak sandwiches (look I referenced a yankee bigot! ) - but as much as someone wants to make it their business, it just isn't. And it doesn't hurt or deprive you of anything. People can attribute it to all kinds of paranoid things - they don't want to assimilate, they love their own country better than this one, blah, blah, blah - but the fact is there is going to be a proportion of the population that learns and a proportion that figures staying in their own neighborhood where people understand them and working menial jobs is good enough for them. Maybe they are intimidated, experiencing culture shock, or their education is limited. It's not a phenomenon that should be that hard to understand when you put down reactionary judgements and think of them as individuals instead of this mass of 'immigrants.'

Sure it would be great if they all, in between working and taking care of their families, learned to speak what is admittedly a difficult language to learn. Just as it would be great if all natural born Americans would learn to actually speak, spell and write coherent sentences in English themselves. *pipe dream*

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

Let us build a utopia together....

Here are some nice tidbits from Tim James's website:
It's not all bad, these are simply the things that set off warning bells in my head in the "I'm glad he's not vying for public office in Canada" sort of way.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot