The Ethics of Breast Milk - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

genuinegirly · 03-09-2010, 11:15 AM

I was going to post this in the Ladies' Lounge, but it seems that men would have plenty to contribute to the discussion.

In a more general sense, people become offended or bothered if they see a mother breast feeding. More women are choosing to formula-feed their children, under the false impression that it is somehow healthier for themselves and their child. It's taboo to speak of human milk, and a fetish for adults. Is our adult distate for milk an evolutionary adaption, or simply a learned behavior?

Breast milk is a topic that fascinates me. Having never attempted to produce any myself, it seems a novel and confusing concept. Among new mothers, it is a frequent conversation - but to the rest of the world, it is simply not discussed.

A few questions to guide discussion:

- Did you breast feed your children, at what point in their development did you stop?
- What obstacles are in place that prevent a mother from breast feeding?
- Have you ever donated to a human milk bank?
- Do you feel breast milk should be sold?
- Share any interesting stories about human milk or breast feeding.

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It's illegal to sell breastmilk in California.

At least, this is what my sister has told me. After speaking with a couple of her online mother-friends who sell their milk, she thought it might be a productive way to make a little extra cash. She looked into it and realized it was not going to work for her, since it's illegal in California and she had no desire to become involved in a black market. But it started me thinking... Why?

I began thinking about the personal freedom aspect - it's your milk, your choice to produce it, what's wrong about trying to make a bit of profit off of it? But there are safety concerns as well.

Breast milk is not generally considered a biohazard in laboratories. There are plenty of other secreted fluids that are treated as such, but breast milk just isn't one of them. HIV and AIDS has been documented to transfer from mother to child through breast feeding, but general exposure to the milk is not considered harmful. The potential with infectious diseases seems a particularly excellent reason to forbid selling breast milk. Contaminants of other sorts pass through the mother's system into the milk - drugs, allergens, etc.

But this realization made me wonder why it would be legal anywhere. It also makes me curious if there are any regulations or certifications in place for someone who wishes to sell their own milk. Donation-based milk banks screen donors, but the process is so rigorous that it deterrs most potential donors. It seems that if there were a larger demand, fewer regulations would be essential to meet that demand.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-09-2010, 11:35 AM

My younger son nursed until he was five & is the tallest & probably the smartest in the family.
Coincidence? -I don't think so.

Redlemon · 03-09-2010, 11:53 AM

My son was both breast and bottle fed. Breastfeeding went until he had teeth on the top and the bottom; at that point, it became too painful for my wife's nipples. She also didn't produce enough milk, and therefore we had to bottle feed as well.

fresnelly · 03-09-2010, 12:22 PM

Both my kids rejected bottle feeding so it was boobs all the way. They both breastfed until about the age of 2.

My wife never had any reservations about breast feeding in public. The only time I ever felt awkward was this one time in the lobby of one of Toronto's central Skyscrapers. The anxiety was all my own though. None of the darting powersuits gave us any notice.

GreyWolf · 03-09-2010, 01:03 PM

My wife breast fed all our kids... for over a year each. I don't think she ever felt any censure about breastfeeding wherever she need to, although she was discreet about it. She never sold or donated her milk, although I see no problem with either concept.

And yes, I've tasted it, and enjoyed it. It was a nice addition to foreplay.

spindles · 03-09-2010, 01:48 PM

One of ours was bottle fed (my wife was having trouble getting him attached) and it was stressing both of them out. The other was breast fed until around 18 months.

It is a very accepted practice in Australia and is certainly encouraged by midwives.

My wife liked breastfeeding - her boobs were a lot bigger (she is normally an A cup) and she liked how they looked. They became off limits for me, though, as they were ultra sensitive.

No, never donated to a milk bank (didn't even know they existed) and don't see the need to sell it, really.

Pearl Trade · 03-09-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

My younger son nursed until he was five & is the tallest & probably the smartest in the family.
Coincidence? -I don't think so.

Damn, 5 years old. Damn.

Have there ever been any studies to show if tank or tit is better? Bottle or boob of course.

eribrav · 03-09-2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

. More women are choosing to formula-feed their children, under the false impression that it is somehow healthier for themselves and their child.

I don't think that is a correct statement.
Rates of breast feeding are not declining in this country. I also don't know any mothers who think it is more healthy to NOT breast feed.
A mom who wants to breast feed will find a way to do so. Let's not focus on the impediments so much because it's very do-able.

Charlatan · 03-09-2010, 04:39 PM

My wife breast fed our kids until they were around one at which time they started to wean themselves. I am sure she would have kept it up longer had they not started to wean.

I don't think we would have donated to breast milk bank. I don't think she was producing more than what either kid could drink and certainly didn't have the time to collect extra if she was.

She breast fed in public with no problems whatsoever. If anyone was uncomfortable with it, I never noticed. But even if they were... fuck 'em.

snowy · 03-09-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl Trade

Damn, 5 years old. Damn.

Have there ever been any studies to show if tank or tit is better? Bottle or boob of course.

Yes. Breast is best. Demonstrated benefits of breastfeeding include: it provides the correct balance of fat and protein, ensures nutritional completeness, helps ensure healthy physical growth, protects against many diseases, protects against faulty jaw development and tooth decay, ensures digestibility, and smooths the transition to solid foods (Berk, 2008). The World Health Organization recommends breastfeeding until 2 years of age.

Today, 75% of Canadian mothers and 71% of American mothers breastfeed.

Grasshopper Green · 03-09-2010, 05:18 PM

I breastfed for 3 months, then switched to formula. The reason for the switch was twofold - my son never seemed satisfied from my milk and was always fussy and my workplace had two options for at-work expression: my car or a public bathroom. Not to mention, having scheduled times to express or a place to store the milk was out of the question.

After the switch to formula, my son was much happier. I wasn't; I felt a tremendous sense of loss after I stopped as I enjoyed breastfeeding, even though it was inconvenient at times. I don't recall ever feeding in public because we didn't go out much when he was that young. I did have a nurse come by for an hour long visit a week after he was born and nursed in front of her without reserve. I also had no problem nursing in front of my mother without covering up. I personally am not bothered by women feeding in public and can't comprehend why it's even an issue.

I doubt I would ever have sold my milk, mostly because I never could produce enough in the first place. I don't see why it would outlawed - I suppose it could be tested like plasma or blood if there was a market for it.

samcol · 03-09-2010, 07:24 PM

mammals should breast feed. i don't have any kids or anything to back it up, but it just makes sense...

KellyC · 03-09-2010, 10:32 PM

Yeah, I never understood the taboo against breast feeding in public. I actually didn't realize it was such a big problem in the US until I was in my late teens.
I was breast fed for sure. For what duration I had no idea. If I have kids, I'd get them breast fed if I can help it.

SecretMethod70 · 03-10-2010, 11:49 AM

How timely...

Chef at Chelsea restaurant offers customers a taste of cheese made from his wife's breast milk - NYPOST.com

Quote:

Wife's baby milk in chef's cheese recipe

This Chelsea restaurant has gone from brasserie to brassiere.
Chef Daniel Angerer is letting diners at Klee Brasserie munch on cheese made from his wife's breast milk.
"It tastes like cow's-milk cheese, kind of sweet," he told The Post.
The flavor depends on what the cheese is served with -- Angerer recommends a Riesling -- and "what the mother eats," said Angerer, who once bested Bobby Flay on TV's "Iron Chef."
Breast milk doesn't curdle well due to its low protein content, so a little moo juice has to be added to round out the texture, Angerer said.
After blogging about his efforts with the human cheese, customers started demanding a sample, he said.
"The phone was ringing off the hook," the chef said. "So I prepared a little canapé of breast-milk cheese with figs and Hungarian pepper."
The response has been generally positive from those who've tried the cheese, although many customers are too squeamish to attempt it.
"I think a lot of the criticism has to do with the combination of sex and cheese, but . . . the breast is there to make food," said Lori Mason, the chef's wife.
Since the restaurant began offering customers a taste, Mason has been inundated with creepy queries, she said.
"Some people who clearly have issues have . . . e-mailed me saying, 'I wasn't breast-fed as a child, so can I taste your breast milk?' " she said.
Mason politely declines the offer.
"I'm not here to walk people through their psychological problems," she said.
That said, Mason is now prodding her husband to make gelato.
After inquiries from The Post, health bigs said yesterday that even though department codes do not explicitly forbid the practice, they have advised Angerer to refrain from sharing his wife's milk with the world.
"The restaurant knows that cheese made from breast milk is not for public consumption, whether sold or given away," a spokeswoman for the city Department of Health said.

Merlocke · 03-10-2010, 12:10 PM

My kid? He tried to eat PIZZA at the age of 8 months... and succeeded. He weaned himself from my wife's breast milk in just under a year.
He'll still drink it now (leftovers in a bottle from our 2nd child) but all he thinks about is eating... when he plays, it's pretending to eat. I swear I can see him chewing in his sleep...

We tried to donate breast milk, but it was a pain in the ass. There's no procedure in our area. We tried freezing a bunch of it, but apparently our freezer isn't strong enough because it all went bad sadly. C'est la vie....

braisler · 03-10-2010, 12:26 PM

- Did you breast feed your children, at what point in their development did you stop?
My wife fed our son for the first month or so. Despite her best efforts she wasn't producing enough milk to satisfy him. He switched to a mix of what milk she could express and formula, and then to formula exclusively.

- What obstacles are in place that prevent a mother from breast feeding?
For her, it was pain and stress. She was in significant pain after delivery and we both think that this negatively affected her ability to breastfeed. Added to that were feelings of failure and stress because she had really, really wanted to breastfeed. It became a very negative point for her and the stress added up to making it nearly impossible to come through.

I don't think that if banked milk was available we would have used it. For her, and for us, it was more a bonding and sharing closeness with the new baby. Breast milk is best, but someone else's breast milk? No thanks.

little_tippler · 03-10-2010, 05:05 PM

I was never breast fed and I turned out fine. No major allergies or illnesses, I think I have a good mind and body, though I am not ultra-tall. I am still a good height for a portuguese woman, 5'4".

I also want to say that I've heard of many women being effectively harassed/bullied in maternities after they have given birth, if they don't want to breast feed or are unable to get their baby to latch on properly. I think this is appalling and people should just be tolerant of each other's choices. Can you imagine being made to feel like a bad mother because you can't give your baby breast milk?

- Did you breast feed your children, at what point in their development did you stop?

Since I don't have kids I'll refer to my mother and others I know. My mom couldn't breast feed me at all due to health complications and so I was instantly bottle fed. I have a friend who breast fed her little girl until she was 3 and she's a very healthy, beautiful and intelligent little girl. She said her daughter loved it and it was just more convenient overall.

- What obstacles are in place that prevent a mother from breast feeding? Sometimes a baby doesn't take to their mother's breast milk that well, because of the quality of the milk I suppose. Stress and PPD can be factors. Other reasons include illnesses that can be transmitted through the milk.

- Have you ever donated to a human milk bank?

No and I don't think I ever would. I find the thought of breast feeding daunting and not entirely pleasant and I think the only person I'll ever do that for is my own child.

- Do you feel breast milk should be sold?

I don't think it's necessary and I don't see a strong enough reason for it. Breast feeding is not a breeze and I don't see why a woman would milk herself for a profit. I tend to thin breast feeding is more important as a bonding experience between mother and child, and also the most health benefits probably occur from mother to child and not so much from mother to random child.

- Share any interesting stories about human milk or breast feeding.

I can't think of any, except every day things to do with breast feeding or painful ones. I'll spare you those.

Willravel · 03-11-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy

Yes. Breast is best. Demonstrated benefits of breastfeeding include: it provides the correct balance of fat and protein, ensures nutritional completeness, helps ensure healthy physical growth, protects against many diseases, protects against faulty jaw development and tooth decay, ensures digestibility, and smooths the transition to solid foods (Berk, 2008). The World Health Organization recommends breastfeeding until 2 years of age.

Gah, Snowy beats me to it again! Well played, madame.

Wes Mantooth · 03-12-2010, 01:05 AM

I'm certainly no expert on the subject but it always seemed ridiculous to me that it upsets people so much when done in public. I don't see a problem with it and there is no reason why people just can't move along and mind their own business if they do.

I suppose I could see how some kind of social etiquette could be applied such as when and where (down front at a wedding for lack of a better example) but no more or less then what would be applied to most social situations. Otherwise I say have it, a mother should be able to choose if she wants to breastfeed her child and I'd rather the poor kid is fed then weather somebody is offended by the practice.

I don't know, I suppose there is a taboo about the subject it seems a lot of people feel its a private thing between mother and child and the milk shouldn't be used for any purpose other then feeding the child. The idea seems a little silly to me, if somebody wants to sell it or fetishize (is that a word?) it then again have it. It comes out of your body so you should be free to do with it as you please, I don't see anything wrong with it.

For the record I've also heard its healthier to breastfeed as well.

ObieX · 03-12-2010, 01:43 AM

The most important part of breast feeding is probably that it provides extremely useful antibodies and immune system boosters that a baby requires to remain healthy at an early age. Without these boosts and crutches to a baby's immune system they can have some serious problems.

As for how long a baby should be breast fed, i don't know. The woman involved should simply know when to stop. Instinct will kick in and let ya know. Between the teeth of the baby and the taboos of society.. you'll know.

As for donating/donated breast milk.. I'm not sure how healthy that is. I, personally, would avoid all donated milk simply on the grounds that you don't know what kind of diseases the person donating may have.

gondath · 03-12-2010, 08:54 PM

I have no issues with breast milk itself. It does seem a bit silly that it can be illegal to sell it. Surely, there could be safeguards to ensure it's safe, just like with any other type of food.

On the subject of breastfeeding in public, I don't care as long as it's covered. I don't have any wish to see exchanges of bodily fluids between people in any context, healthy or not. I'm sure fewer people would take issue with it if the more militant mothers didn't refuse to even cover up while feeding the kids out around other people.

robot_parade · 03-12-2010, 09:12 PM

My wife breastfed, mostly, until the kids grew out of it, or a couple grew too...'toothy', and we did some formula feeding. I think in some circles the advantages of breastfeeding are overstated - sure, it's 'better' - but there are a lot of other variables in a child's life that are important too. I don't have any data to back this up, but my suspicion is that 'bottling' and reselling breastmilk isn't worth the hassle - I suspect that at least some, if not most, of the benefits of breastfeeding are due to the closeness and 'naturalness' of mother and child being together, not of the specific composition of the milk itself.

From the other side, I've tasted it a few times (hey, I have a breast fetish and four kids). IMHO, "it" is...interesting. Very sweet, almost cloyingly so. An interesting experience, but not one that I obsess about or have any fetish for.

Terrell · 03-16-2010, 02:10 PM

I think that the problem, at least as far as the US is concerned, is our puritanical views on sex, and the breast being a secondary sexual characteristic in human females. Personally I think we should lose the purtianism on all matters sexual.

Like it or not, breasts are considered sexualized in our culture (US), and breast development is something that sexually differientate female humans from male humans, as well female humans from most other female mammals. (Most mammals are "flat chested" by comparison to human females, when not pregnant or lactating)

I also agree with Little Tippler, in that women who choose the bottle should not be bullied or otherwise harassed by those who choose the breast. (nor should it occur in the other direction)

Charlatan · 03-16-2010, 04:34 PM

It's not that women who don't breast feed should be bullied, but they should, as part of a larger public health effort, be encouraged and supported to make the decision to breastfeed. It's better for the baby.

Where things get nasty are in the third world. Companies like Nestle spend a lot of money to convince women in developing nations to use infant formulas rather than breast feeding. No only is this turning something that is natural and, more importantly, free into a commodity it also endangers the baby. Feeding from a breast does not require the sterilization from bacteria and germs that bottle does. What is a convenience in one part of the world is a massive hassle (and potentially dangerous) elsewhere.

Terrell · 03-17-2010, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It's not that women who don't breast feed should be bullied, but they should, as part of a larger public health effort, be encouraged and supported to make the decision to breastfeed. It's better for the baby.

.

One person's encouragement can be another person's bullying. At what point should the people who advocate for breastfeeding to those mothers who would rather use a bottle, for whatever reason, back off and accept "no" for an answer?

snowy · 03-17-2010, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrell

One person's encouragement can be another person's bullying. At what point should the people who advocate for breastfeeding to those mothers who would rather use a bottle, for whatever reason, back off and accept "no" for an answer?

When it becomes apparent that due to physical reasons, the woman cannot breastfeed. The health benefits of breastfeeding are such that it should be encouraged and promoted. A baby should not be deprived of its best food source unless there is a valid physical reason for it.

Terrell · 03-17-2010, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy

When it becomes apparent that due to physical reasons, the woman cannot breastfeed. The health benefits of breastfeeding are such that it should be encouraged and promoted. A baby should not be deprived of its best food source unless there is a valid physical reason for it.

So women who don't wish to breastfeed should not be allowed to not breastfeed in your opinion?

snowy · 03-17-2010, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrell

So women who don't wish to breastfeed should not be allowed to not breastfeed in your opinion?

Not quite.

The problem is that we (the United States) don't have a culture where breastfeeding is widely accepted/desirable/easy. Certainly, a majority of the women in the United States breastfeed, but they do face problems in doing so. Pumping and storing breast milk is difficult for women who have to work; that has to be changed. We also need to continue educating pregnant mothers about the benefits of breastfeeding. In tandem with that, we need to reach out more to groups at-risk of not receiving proper prenatal care. If we do these things, I doubt we would have to tell mothers "breastfeed or else."

Terrell · 03-17-2010, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy

Not quite.

The problem is that we (the United States) don't have a culture where breastfeeding is widely accepted/desirable/easy. Certainly, a majority of the women in the United States breastfeed, but they do face problems in doing so. Pumping and storing breast milk is difficult for women who have to work; that has to be changed.

This I can agree with. A little discretion should be required, but I think most women wouldn't have a problem with that. I don't think her options should be bathroom or vehicle, when she's in a public place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy

We also need to continue educating pregnant mothers about the benefits of breastfeeding. In tandem with that, we need to reach out more to groups at-risk of not receiving proper prenatal care. If we do these things, I doubt we would have to tell mothers "breastfeed or else."

Prenatal care, definitely should be as available as possible, I don't disagree with that. While I think the information should be available for women who want it. I do think that the woman should have the right to say, "no I would rather bottle feed" and have the people who advocate breastfeeding respect her decision, and her right to make it. (That doesn't mean that they have to agree with it, but once the woman has clearly decided "no" then it's time to back off, IMO.)

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-17-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrell

but once the woman has clearly decided "no" then it's time to back off, IMO.)

In mine, also. Would you mind sharing why advocating breastfeeding has become threatening?

Terrell · 03-17-2010, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

In mine, also. Would you mind sharing why advocating breastfeeding has become threatening?

Go back and read Post 17, I was commenting on a point Little Tippler made.

I don't think that making the information available is threatening but I do think we can agree that no means no, even in this area. Failure to respect that, is the only place I would have a problem.

Charlatan · 03-17-2010, 04:28 PM

No does mean no but... I think you have to make sure that that no is an informed no. Hence the process that snowy describes, and with which I agree.

Terrell · 03-17-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

No does mean no but... I think you have to make sure that that no is an informed no. Hence the process that snowy describes, and with which I agree.

If she has to have a valid physical reason to say no, then does no really mean no? (As Snowy described earlier) Who decides which physical reasons are valid?

I'm not against giving her the valid information, but I do think that the final choice is hers and her choice should be respected.

Charlatan · 03-17-2010, 05:00 PM

I agree with you. I am just saying that many make this decision from a place of ignorance. More information and access to a public health nurse to show how it's done, to remove any potential discomfort are important.

girldetective · 03-17-2010, 06:00 PM

I think most people know the benefits for the baby with breastfeeding. If they dont, snowy did a good job explaining up top. I dont think there is any disagreement that info should always be made public and widely available, including word of mouth. Im going back the OP here from gg.

Breastfeeding is the most comfortable, bonding, sensual, pleasing experience Ive ever had. If I could do it for life, I would. If wetnursing were a profession, Id be a PhD. I dont know if I think it should be a profession, just that I would be at the head of the class.

It was surprising the first couple of times because no one had told me it would feel physically sexual - not the action itself, but the effect. Perhaps it shouldnt surprise anyone given that the breast is an errogenous zone, but I have never heard anyone else talk about this. It was readily apparent those first couple of times, and then quickly became not so. I dont know why, and sometimes wonder if it has to do with chemicals of some sort being released right after that first milk comes down.

I understand lately that some women are reluctant to breastfeed because they feel it will change the shape of their breasts. It might, but pregnancy itself might change the shape of your body. I would hope these women (and their partners) might look beyond this and themselves, and to their new child (I dont believe most thoughtful people would take this stance, but you never know). Look to Brad and Angie!

Also lately Ive heard some women find breastfeeding "hard". I would encourage those who felt that way to stay the course, and think of how much easier it is then getting up in the middle of the night to find a bottle, wash it, mix formula, warm it, and then sit and feed it to the child. Instead, why not nestle right up cozy and warm in your own bed, with your partner nearby hearing the coos and wet pursing of lips? Let everyone enjoy. During the day, you learn to do things in a natural manner that feels comfortable and you find your spots.

If you truly cant or wont breastfeed, at least do everyone the favor of taking the babe in your bed and nestling up with the bottle for a little bonding. And of course no mother should be bullied for her choice, but she should be aware of the the way it works, why it might be a little painful at first, and how it will stop hurting at all given just a little time. The pain is quite manageable in that first week of so, and then you begin to get the rhythm, and so does your body, and your child. It all begins to sync and then its smooth sailing, and fun! and still sometimes surprising!

little_tippler · 03-18-2010, 07:03 AM

I have to say that I know for a fact of several cases of women who had trouble when they first gave birth, with breastfeeding and who were mistreated by nurses at the maternity because of it. They wanted to breastfeed, and had planned to, but initially had trouble with the baby latching on, painful breasts, and PPD.

Instead of being supportive, the nurses made them even more anxious by insisting that it was all in their head, that it was their fault that the baby would not latch on and that deep down they just didn't want to breast feed and so were doing it on purpose. I can't imagine having just given birth and being harassed in this way.

If a mother is having difficulty in breast feeding, nurses should be supportive and encouraging, all the while reassuring the mother that though it's quite a normal occurrence to have initial trouble in getting the breast feeding process to be a happy and smooth experience for all involved, that persevering will usually right the problem. And if not, they should make the mother feel that there is no shame in not being able to breast feed your baby. I know a few women who wanted badly to breast feed but the poor quality of their breast milk made it so their baby was never happy and cried constantly, losing weight in the process, at which point (sometimes two months later) they decided that the bottle was the better option, by indication of their doctor.

I think the insistence nowadays that women should breast feed at all costs is promoting a generation of overbearing maternity nurses who don't know the difference between gentle encouragement and support and outright bullying.

Though it's important to stress that breast feeding is a natural and important part of a baby's growth process, it's also important to remember that ultimately, a women has to have a choice if she wants it, because it is her body. There is no need to shame or berate people for their choice, if it is made in an informed and conscientious manner.

snowy · 03-18-2010, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by little_tippler

I have to say that I know for a fact of several cases of women who had trouble when they first gave birth, with breastfeeding and who were mistreated by nurses at the maternity because of it. They wanted to breastfeed, and had planned to, but initially had trouble with the baby latching on, painful breasts, and PPD.

Instead of being supportive, the nurses made them even more anxious by insisting that it was all in their head, that it was their fault that the baby would not latch on and that deep down they just didn't want to breast feed and so were doing it on purpose. I can't imagine having just given birth and being harassed in this way.

If a mother is having difficulty in breast feeding, nurses should be supportive and encouraging, all the while reassuring the mother that though it's quite a normal occurrence to have initial trouble in getting the breast feeding process to be a happy and smooth experience for all involved, that persevering will usually right the problem. And if not, they should make the mother feel that there is no shame in not being able to breast feed your baby. I know a few women who wanted badly to breast feed but the poor quality of their breast milk made it so their baby was never happy and cried constantly, losing weight in the process, at which point (sometimes two months later) they decided that the bottle was the better option, by indication of their doctor.

I think the insistence nowadays that women should breast feed at all costs is promoting a generation of overbearing maternity nurses who don't know the difference between gentle encouragement and support and outright bullying.

Though it's important to stress that breast feeding is a natural and important part of a baby's growth process, it's also important to remember that ultimately, a women has to have a choice if she wants it, because it is her body. There is no need to shame or berate people for their choice, if it is made in an informed and conscientious manner.

And I absolutely agree with this. The problem is that in the United States, some women refuse to breastfeed for reasons other than "I can't." Usually, it's ignorance of the benefits of breastfeeding. We're an enormous country with a patchwork healthcare system--many women needing prenatal care that would inform them about breastfeeding miss out, and then the first time they hear of it is in the hospital, from a nurse who may be what you described, tippler. That is not ideal.

I would like us to promote a supportive, caring environment and culture wherein breastfeeding is the norm. As I said above, if we do that, women will make the right decisions for their babies and themselves.

markhere · 03-18-2010, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by little_tippler

I have to say that I know for a fact of several cases of women who had trouble when they first gave birth, with breastfeeding and who were mistreated by nurses at the maternity because of it. They wanted to breastfeed, and had planned to, but initially had trouble with the baby latching on, painful breasts, and PPD.

Instead of being supportive, the nurses made them even more anxious by insisting that it was all in their head, that it was their fault that the baby would not latch on and that deep down they just didn't want to breast feed and so were doing it on purpose.

this was certainly our experience, my wife did try and try and try and the nurses did little to support her effort, watching from the other side of the nursery and saying things like, "keep trying it will work", after a couple of days it did not, she could not produce milk, we found the bottle and raised a beautiful, strong, intelligent girl

babes number two and three were the same, admittedly there was not a long a "trying period" for number three, but effort made nonethless

had we not have been so overwhealmed and tired at the time, we probably should have challenged the maternity nurse's approach

girldetective · 03-18-2010, 08:31 AM

If a nurse is harrassing a woman about breastfeeding, or if that woman is not getting the education/care that she could be, or if she doesnt think she can nurse she could ask the hospital is thay have a LeLeche League associate, or they could call LeLeche themselves for help.

markhere · 03-18-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by girldetective

If a nurse is harrassing a woman about breastfeeding, or if that woman is not getting the education/care that she could be, or if she doesnt think she can nurse she could ask the hospital is thay have a LeLeche League associate, or they could call LeLeche themselves for help.

we contacted La Leche when we checked out, (baby number two), they got back to us a week too late, crossed wires or somesuch, shame they seemed keen to help

03-09-2010, 11:15 AM	#1 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	The Ethics of Breast Milk I was going to post this in the Ladies' Lounge, but it seems that men would have plenty to contribute to the discussion. In a more general sense, people become offended or bothered if they see a mother breast feeding. More women are choosing to formula-feed their children, under the false impression that it is somehow healthier for themselves and their child. It's taboo to speak of human milk, and a fetish for adults. Is our adult distate for milk an evolutionary adaption, or simply a learned behavior? Breast milk is a topic that fascinates me. Having never attempted to produce any myself, it seems a novel and confusing concept. Among new mothers, it is a frequent conversation - but to the rest of the world, it is simply not discussed. A few questions to guide discussion: - Did you breast feed your children, at what point in their development did you stop? - What obstacles are in place that prevent a mother from breast feeding? - Have you ever donated to a human milk bank? - Do you feel breast milk should be sold? - Share any interesting stories about human milk or breast feeding. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's illegal to sell breastmilk in California. At least, this is what my sister has told me. After speaking with a couple of her online mother-friends who sell their milk, she thought it might be a productive way to make a little extra cash. She looked into it and realized it was not going to work for her, since it's illegal in California and she had no desire to become involved in a black market. But it started me thinking... Why? I began thinking about the personal freedom aspect - it's your milk, your choice to produce it, what's wrong about trying to make a bit of profit off of it? But there are safety concerns as well. Breast milk is not generally considered a biohazard in laboratories. There are plenty of other secreted fluids that are treated as such, but breast milk just isn't one of them. HIV and AIDS has been documented to transfer from mother to child through breast feeding, but general exposure to the milk is not considered harmful. The potential with infectious diseases seems a particularly excellent reason to forbid selling breast milk. Contaminants of other sorts pass through the mother's system into the milk - drugs, allergens, etc. But this realization made me wonder why it would be legal anywhere. It also makes me curious if there are any regulations or certifications in place for someone who wishes to sell their own milk. Donation-based milk banks screen donors, but the process is so rigorous that it deterrs most potential donors. It seems that if there were a larger demand, fewer regulations would be essential to meet that demand. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy Last edited by genuinegirly; 03-09-2010 at 11:36 AM..

03-09-2010, 11:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	My younger son nursed until he was five & is the tallest & probably the smartest in the family. Coincidence? -I don't think so. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-09-2010, 11:53 AM	#3 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	My son was both breast and bottle fed. Breastfeeding went until he had teeth on the top and the bottom; at that point, it became too painful for my wife's nipples. She also didn't produce enough milk, and therefore we had to bottle feed as well. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

03-09-2010, 12:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	Both my kids rejected bottle feeding so it was boobs all the way. They both breastfed until about the age of 2. My wife never had any reservations about breast feeding in public. The only time I ever felt awkward was this one time in the lobby of one of Toronto's central Skyscrapers. The anxiety was all my own though. None of the darting powersuits gave us any notice. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

03-09-2010, 01:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
GreyWolf Sober Location: Eastern Canada	My wife breast fed all our kids... for over a year each. I don't think she ever felt any censure about breastfeeding wherever she need to, although she was discreet about it. She never sold or donated her milk, although I see no problem with either concept. And yes, I've tasted it, and enjoyed it. It was a nice addition to foreplay. __________________ *The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.*

03-09-2010, 01:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	One of ours was bottle fed (my wife was having trouble getting him attached) and it was stressing both of them out. The other was breast fed until around 18 months. It is a very accepted practice in Australia and is certainly encouraged by midwives. My wife liked breastfeeding - her boobs were a lot bigger (she is normally an A cup) and she liked how they looked. They became off limits for me, though, as they were ultra sensitive. No, never donated to a milk bank (didn't even know they existed) and don't see the need to sell it, really. __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

03-09-2010, 04:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	My wife breast fed our kids until they were around one at which time they started to wean themselves. I am sure she would have kept it up longer had they not started to wean. I don't think we would have donated to breast milk bank. I don't think she was producing more than what either kid could drink and certainly didn't have the time to collect extra if she was. She breast fed in public with no problems whatsoever. If anyone was uncomfortable with it, I never noticed. But even if they were... fuck 'em. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-09-2010, 05:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I breastfed for 3 months, then switched to formula. The reason for the switch was twofold - my son never seemed satisfied from my milk and was always fussy and my workplace had two options for at-work expression: my car or a public bathroom. Not to mention, having scheduled times to express or a place to store the milk was out of the question. After the switch to formula, my son was much happier. I wasn't; I felt a tremendous sense of loss after I stopped as I enjoyed breastfeeding, even though it was inconvenient at times. I don't recall ever feeding in public because we didn't go out much when he was that young. I did have a nurse come by for an hour long visit a week after he was born and nursed in front of her without reserve. I also had no problem nursing in front of my mother without covering up. I personally am not bothered by women feeding in public and can't comprehend why it's even an issue. I doubt I would ever have sold my milk, mostly because I never could produce enough in the first place. I don't see why it would outlawed - I suppose it could be tested like plasma or blood if there was a market for it. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

03-09-2010, 07:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	mammals should breast feed. i don't have any kids or anything to back it up, but it just makes sense... __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

03-09-2010, 10:32 PM	#13 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	Yeah, I never understood the taboo against breast feeding in public. I actually didn't realize it was such a big problem in the US until I was in my late teens. I was breast fed for sure. For what duration I had no idea. If I have kids, I'd get them breast fed if I can help it. __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.

03-10-2010, 12:10 PM	#15 (permalink)
Merlocke Location: Canada	My kid? He tried to eat PIZZA at the age of 8 months... and succeeded. He weaned himself from my wife's breast milk in just under a year. He'll still drink it now (leftovers in a bottle from our 2nd child) but all he thinks about is eating... when he plays, it's pretending to eat. I swear I can see him chewing in his sleep... We tried to donate breast milk, but it was a pain in the ass. There's no procedure in our area. We tried freezing a bunch of it, but apparently our freezer isn't strong enough because it all went bad sadly. C'est la vie.... __________________ -=[ Merlocke ]=- Last edited by Merlocke; 03-10-2010 at 12:12 PM.. Reason: wanted to add more

03-10-2010, 12:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
braisler Addict Location: Midway, KY	- Did you breast feed your children, at what point in their development did you stop? My wife fed our son for the first month or so. Despite her best efforts she wasn't producing enough milk to satisfy him. He switched to a mix of what milk she could express and formula, and then to formula exclusively. - What obstacles are in place that prevent a mother from breast feeding? For her, it was pain and stress. She was in significant pain after delivery and we both think that this negatively affected her ability to breastfeed. Added to that were feelings of failure and stress because she had really, really wanted to breastfeed. It became a very negative point for her and the stress added up to making it nearly impossible to come through. I don't think that if banked milk was available we would have used it. For her, and for us, it was more a bonding and sharing closeness with the new baby. Breast milk is best, but someone else's breast milk? No thanks. __________________ --- You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. - Albert Einstein ---

03-10-2010, 05:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
little_tippler Leaning against the -Sun- Super Moderator Location: on the other side	I was never breast fed and I turned out fine. No major allergies or illnesses, I think I have a good mind and body, though I am not ultra-tall. I am still a good height for a portuguese woman, 5'4". I also want to say that I've heard of many women being effectively harassed/bullied in maternities after they have given birth, if they don't want to breast feed or are unable to get their baby to latch on properly. I think this is appalling and people should just be tolerant of each other's choices. Can you imagine being made to feel like a bad mother because you can't give your baby breast milk? - Did you breast feed your children, at what point in their development did you stop? Since I don't have kids I'll refer to my mother and others I know. My mom couldn't breast feed me at all due to health complications and so I was instantly bottle fed. I have a friend who breast fed her little girl until she was 3 and she's a very healthy, beautiful and intelligent little girl. She said her daughter loved it and it was just more convenient overall. - What obstacles are in place that prevent a mother from breast feeding? Sometimes a baby doesn't take to their mother's breast milk that well, because of the quality of the milk I suppose. Stress and PPD can be factors. Other reasons include illnesses that can be transmitted through the milk. - Have you ever donated to a human milk bank? No and I don't think I ever would. I find the thought of breast feeding daunting and not entirely pleasant and I think the only person I'll ever do that for is my own child. - Do you feel breast milk should be sold? I don't think it's necessary and I don't see a strong enough reason for it. Breast feeding is not a breeze and I don't see why a woman would milk herself for a profit. I tend to thin breast feeding is more important as a bonding experience between mother and child, and also the most health benefits probably occur from mother to child and not so much from mother to random child. - Share any interesting stories about human milk or breast feeding. I can't think of any, except every day things to do with breast feeding or painful ones. I'll spare you those. __________________ Whether we write or speak or do but look We are ever unapparent. What we are Cannot be transfused into word or book. Our soul from us is infinitely far. However much we give our thoughts the will To be our soul and gesture it abroad, Our hearts are incommunicable still. In what we show ourselves we are ignored. The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged By any skill of thought or trick of seeming. Unto our very selves we are abridged When we would utter to our thought our being. We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams, And each to each other dreams of others' dreams. Fernando Pessoa, 1918 Last edited by little_tippler; 03-10-2010 at 05:07 PM..

03-12-2010, 01:05 AM	#19 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	I'm certainly no expert on the subject but it always seemed ridiculous to me that it upsets people so much when done in public. I don't see a problem with it and there is no reason why people just can't move along and mind their own business if they do. I suppose I could see how some kind of social etiquette could be applied such as when and where (down front at a wedding for lack of a better example) but no more or less then what would be applied to most social situations. Otherwise I say have it, a mother should be able to choose if she wants to breastfeed her child and I'd rather the poor kid is fed then weather somebody is offended by the practice. I don't know, I suppose there is a taboo about the subject it seems a lot of people feel its a private thing between mother and child and the milk shouldn't be used for any purpose other then feeding the child. The idea seems a little silly to me, if somebody wants to sell it or fetishize (is that a word?) it then again have it. It comes out of your body so you should be free to do with it as you please, I don't see anything wrong with it. For the record I've also heard its healthier to breastfeed as well. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

03-12-2010, 01:43 AM	#20 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	The most important part of breast feeding is probably that it provides extremely useful antibodies and immune system boosters that a baby requires to remain healthy at an early age. Without these boosts and crutches to a baby's immune system they can have some serious problems. As for how long a baby should be breast fed, i don't know. The woman involved should simply know when to stop. Instinct will kick in and let ya know. Between the teeth of the baby and the taboos of society.. you'll know. As for donating/donated breast milk.. I'm not sure how healthy that is. I, personally, would avoid all donated milk simply on the grounds that you don't know what kind of diseases the person donating may have. __________________ We Must Dissent.

03-12-2010, 08:54 PM	#21 (permalink)
gondath Insane Location: Alton, IL	I have no issues with breast milk itself. It does seem a bit silly that it can be illegal to sell it. Surely, there could be safeguards to ensure it's safe, just like with any other type of food. On the subject of breastfeeding in public, I don't care as long as it's covered. I don't have any wish to see exchanges of bodily fluids between people in any context, healthy or not. I'm sure fewer people would take issue with it if the more militant mothers didn't refuse to even cover up while feeding the kids out around other people.

03-12-2010, 09:12 PM	#22 (permalink)
robot_parade Junkie Location: San Antonio, TX	My wife breastfed, mostly, until the kids grew out of it, or a couple grew too...'toothy', and we did some formula feeding. I think in some circles the advantages of breastfeeding are overstated - sure, it's 'better' - but there are a lot of other variables in a child's life that are important too. I don't have any data to back this up, but my suspicion is that 'bottling' and reselling breastmilk isn't worth the hassle - I suspect that at least some, if not most, of the benefits of breastfeeding are due to the closeness and 'naturalness' of mother and child being together, not of the specific composition of the milk itself. From the other side, I've tasted it a few times (hey, I have a breast fetish and four kids). IMHO, "it" is...interesting. Very sweet, almost cloyingly so. An interesting experience, but not one that I obsess about or have any fetish for.

03-16-2010, 02:10 PM	#23 (permalink)
Terrell Insane Location: Orlando, Florida	I think that the problem, at least as far as the US is concerned, is our puritanical views on sex, and the breast being a secondary sexual characteristic in human females. Personally I think we should lose the purtianism on all matters sexual. Like it or not, breasts are considered sexualized in our culture (US), and breast development is something that sexually differientate female humans from male humans, as well female humans from most other female mammals. (Most mammals are "flat chested" by comparison to human females, when not pregnant or lactating) I also agree with Little Tippler, in that women who choose the bottle should not be bullied or otherwise harassed by those who choose the breast. (nor should it occur in the other direction)

03-16-2010, 04:34 PM	#24 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	It's not that women who don't breast feed should be bullied, but they should, as part of a larger public health effort, be encouraged and supported to make the decision to breastfeed. It's better for the baby. Where things get nasty are in the third world. Companies like Nestle spend a lot of money to convince women in developing nations to use infant formulas rather than breast feeding. No only is this turning something that is natural and, more importantly, free into a commodity it also endangers the baby. Feeding from a breast does not require the sterilization from bacteria and germs that bottle does. What is a convenience in one part of the world is a massive hassle (and potentially dangerous) elsewhere. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-17-2010, 04:28 PM	#32 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	No does mean no but... I think you have to make sure that that no is an informed no. Hence the process that snowy describes, and with which I agree. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-17-2010, 05:00 PM	#34 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I agree with you. I am just saying that many make this decision from a place of ignorance. More information and access to a public health nurse to show how it's done, to remove any potential discomfort are important. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-17-2010, 06:00 PM	#35 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	I think most people know the benefits for the baby with breastfeeding. If they dont, snowy did a good job explaining up top. I dont think there is any disagreement that info should always be made public and widely available, including word of mouth. Im going back the OP here from gg. Breastfeeding is the most comfortable, bonding, sensual, pleasing experience Ive ever had. If I could do it for life, I would. If wetnursing were a profession, Id be a PhD. I dont know if I think it should be a profession, just that I would be at the head of the class. It was surprising the first couple of times because no one had told me it would feel physically sexual - not the action itself, but the effect. Perhaps it shouldnt surprise anyone given that the breast is an errogenous zone, but I have never heard anyone else talk about this. It was readily apparent those first couple of times, and then quickly became not so. I dont know why, and sometimes wonder if it has to do with chemicals of some sort being released right after that first milk comes down. I understand lately that some women are reluctant to breastfeed because they feel it will change the shape of their breasts. It might, but pregnancy itself might change the shape of your body. I would hope these women (and their partners) might look beyond this and themselves, and to their new child (I dont believe most thoughtful people would take this stance, but you never know). Look to Brad and Angie! Also lately Ive heard some women find breastfeeding "hard". I would encourage those who felt that way to stay the course, and think of how much easier it is then getting up in the middle of the night to find a bottle, wash it, mix formula, warm it, and then sit and feed it to the child. Instead, why not nestle right up cozy and warm in your own bed, with your partner nearby hearing the coos and wet pursing of lips? Let everyone enjoy. During the day, you learn to do things in a natural manner that feels comfortable and you find your spots. If you truly cant or wont breastfeed, at least do everyone the favor of taking the babe in your bed and nestling up with the bottle for a little bonding. And of course no mother should be bullied for her choice, but she should be aware of the the way it works, why it might be a little painful at first, and how it will stop hurting at all given just a little time. The pain is quite manageable in that first week of so, and then you begin to get the rhythm, and so does your body, and your child. It all begins to sync and then its smooth sailing, and fun! and still sometimes surprising! __________________ As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata Last edited by girldetective; 03-17-2010 at 06:03 PM..

03-18-2010, 07:03 AM	#36 (permalink)
little_tippler Leaning against the -Sun- Super Moderator Location: on the other side	I have to say that I know for a fact of several cases of women who had trouble when they first gave birth, with breastfeeding and who were mistreated by nurses at the maternity because of it. They wanted to breastfeed, and had planned to, but initially had trouble with the baby latching on, painful breasts, and PPD. Instead of being supportive, the nurses made them even more anxious by insisting that it was all in their head, that it was their fault that the baby would not latch on and that deep down they just didn't want to breast feed and so were doing it on purpose. I can't imagine having just given birth and being harassed in this way. If a mother is having difficulty in breast feeding, nurses should be supportive and encouraging, all the while reassuring the mother that though it's quite a normal occurrence to have initial trouble in getting the breast feeding process to be a happy and smooth experience for all involved, that persevering will usually right the problem. And if not, they should make the mother feel that there is no shame in not being able to breast feed your baby. I know a few women who wanted badly to breast feed but the poor quality of their breast milk made it so their baby was never happy and cried constantly, losing weight in the process, at which point (sometimes two months later) they decided that the bottle was the better option, by indication of their doctor. I think the insistence nowadays that women should breast feed at all costs is promoting a generation of overbearing maternity nurses who don't know the difference between gentle encouragement and support and outright bullying. Though it's important to stress that breast feeding is a natural and important part of a baby's growth process, it's also important to remember that ultimately, a women has to have a choice if she wants it, because it is her body. There is no need to shame or berate people for their choice, if it is made in an informed and conscientious manner. __________________ Whether we write or speak or do but look We are ever unapparent. What we are Cannot be transfused into word or book. Our soul from us is infinitely far. However much we give our thoughts the will To be our soul and gesture it abroad, Our hearts are incommunicable still. In what we show ourselves we are ignored. The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged By any skill of thought or trick of seeming. Unto our very selves we are abridged When we would utter to our thought our being. We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams, And each to each other dreams of others' dreams. Fernando Pessoa, 1918

03-18-2010, 08:31 AM	#39 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	If a nurse is harrassing a woman about breastfeeding, or if that woman is not getting the education/care that she could be, or if she doesnt think she can nurse she could ask the hospital is thay have a LeLeche League associate, or they could call LeLeche themselves for help. __________________ As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata