highthief

Nuts, wishful thinkers, or really onto something?

I ask because in the wake of the swine flu vaccination campaign (along with the ever present childhood innoculations that make the news whenever someone in Hollywood suggest they cause autism) many people turn to homeopathic remedies in an attempt to fight off infections and maintain health.

Now, the main objection to standard vaccinations tends to be one where some feel the vaccines will cause other, debilitating illness even if they do prevent the illness being innoculated against - be that flu, polio, measles, etc. Now these vaccinations have been heavily studied over the years by many, many organizations from CDC and WHO to universities to private companies and everything we know suggests that risks of serious side effect (Guillame-Barre syndrome for example in the case of the flu shot) are very small - between 1/160,000 to 1/1,000,000 depending on which studies you consider.

But when people decide to go to the health food store and take an herbal mixture, there have usually been very few large scale studies done on the material to determine just how safe the stuff is, or how it works (or doesn't work) when taken in conjunction with other herbs. Yes, a few herbs such as ginseng have been well studied - most have not been. So how do people who take such remedies reconcile the herbs unknown safety record with the known safety records of standard vaccines?

Personally, I'm thinking "wishful thinking" describes the majority of folks who place their faith in these remedies. I can generally understand why people might turn to such approaches when a more proven option is not available - I've used them myself in such circumstances - but it is often a "hit and hope" approach when a scientifically proven option is not available.

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Ace_O_Spades

Wishful thinkers... The placebo effect is a powerful thing... As long as you believe that you aren't taking a placebo...

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Feh.

ratbastid

There's a huge difference between herbal remedies, many of which contain actual active ingredients that actually have physical effects, and homeopathic remedies, which are nicely packed and marketed sugar pills or vials of water. Homeopathy is entirely different from herbal medicine.

How homeopathy works is, you take a symptom you want to treat. Vomiting, say. You find something that causes vomiting. Ipecac, say. So then you make a mixture of water and ipecac. And then you dilute that to the point of absurdity. The usual dosage is a "30C" dilution, which is one part per 10^60. There's basically no chance that the resulting "medicine" has any of the original ipecac in it, not even a single molecule. And that's what's given for treatment of vomiting. It's pure snake oil. There's never been any research to show that it's any better than a placebo.

GreyWolf

Homeopathic remedies cannot work on ANY physical basis. But... they do work on a psychological basis. Therefore, if you have back pain, and take a homeopathic remedy that you believe will cure the pain, it will likely work. If you take a homeopathic remedy for the flu, pneumonia, or any other pathogenetically caused ailment, it won't work.

They are much like Granny's cold cure on the old Beverly Hillbillies show. A cold normally runs it's course in 7-10 days. Granny had a cure that was widely known to work (her "rheumatiz medicine", aka moonshine). Her cure... 2 swigs of rheumatiz medicine morning & night for 7-10 days. Guaranteed to work.

Homeopathy is a lot like that.

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highthief

OK, thank you for the clarification and if a mod can edit the original title to reflect that that is fine, but the same point stands.

Most of the herbs - with a few exceptions - have not been subject to large scale studies, certainly not comparable to mainstream medicines and vaccines, so their record of both efficacy and safety is not well understood by those who consume them, perhaps not even by their manufacturers/sellers.

Is ingesting such products - while at the same time castigating mainstream vaccines and pharamaceuticals - not a little bit odd? How can this be reconciled?

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

MSD

If a natural remedy works, a pharmaceutical company will research it, refine it, test it, go through the process to prove that it does what they say it does without harming the user, and patent it.

Homeopathy cannot work because dilute substances do not have a measurable effect on the human body and water cannot develop a memory or carry energy in the way homeopaths claim. Users may be gullible, affected by placebo, or just ignorant of the issue, anyone who has done even cursory research into it and claims it works is a fraud.

telekinetic

This. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to be effective? Medicine!

Example: Did you know that if you grind up the leaves and bark of a willow tree, it cures headaches? If you're too lazy to go find yourself a willow tree, you can just pop an aspirin, as they isolated the active ingredient long ago and sell it separately.

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twisted no more

Willravel

Homeopathy, my book, ranks somewhere between healing crystals and acupuncture. It's not science, there's no verifiable data to back up their claims, and the people that use it generally do so knowing that it's not scientific.

MSD

Natural selection joke here.

Xerxys

Why is it only people from the internet know this stuff?

Martian

I think it's worth noting that the fact that herbal remedies can be effective doesn't necessarily make them safer or better than pharmaceuticals. In fact, in many cases taking an herbal remedy can be quite dangerous. The problem is that herbal remedies are not prescribed or controlled in any way, which means that nobody's checking for potentially harmful side effects or interactions, or even making sure they'll do the things the provider claims they will.

If you want to take herbal remedies, I'm not going to stop you; at the same time, it's important to remember that anything with active pharmacological ingredients has the potential to do more harm than good. Talk to your doctor and make sure it's going to help you first.

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I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
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- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

filtherton

I think it bears mention that the fact that a drug is approved by the FDA and has undergone formal trials is not necessarily a guarantee of its safety or effectiveness.

Willravel

This is true, but it's probably more reliable than something that has "ancient Chinese" on the label and didn't go though any rigorous testing before finding its way to your body.

filtherton

Maybe, maybe not. Rigorous testing is useless if the tests don't evaluate the appropriate factors.

noodle

Meh, I've used many in conjunction with traditional therapies. Ruta Graveolens and Arnica homeopathic little bally things and my bruises have healed much faster than without. Coincidence? I don't care. They healed and the remedies weren't expensive enough to deter me. Arnica gel also works wonders for bruising. In that preparation, it becomes an herbal remedy right? But both work. I've also take occill-something really long and not had any results, but had antibiotics clear up an infection. And I swear by acidophilus for yeast infections and thrush... is that a herbal remedy or homeopathic medicine? Either way, it's the bomb. So in regards to the poll, I did choose on to something. Because of those two specific substances. The rest, I have no idea.

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Willravel

Yes, but it's uncommon for something truly dangerous to slip by the FDA. Some testing is better than no testing whatsoever.

GreyWolf

Acupuncture DOES work. There have been many rigorous studies of its efficacy, and it actually does interfere with nerve transmission, resulting in a anesthetic effect. It does NOT help you stop smoking, or act as an anti-depressant, or many of the other claims for it. But it is an effective pain treatment.

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filtherton

Actually, when "some testing" is based on faulty premises it can actually be worse than no testing because it can provide an illusion of effectiveness.

I don't have any info about studies relating natural remedies and morbidity. If you know of any, I'd be interested to see them; I don't doubt that there are natural remedies which can do more harm than good. However, there are no shortage of examples of popular, medical science endorsed treatments which turn out to have fairly serious and unexpected side effects, though I readily admit that these cases constitute a minority.

I'm not saying all pharmaceuticals are harmful and/or useless, just that it doesn't necessarily make sense to hold them up as some sort of example of the salutary effects of the scientific method, when frequently the scientific method plays only a small role in bringing the drugs to market. The type of trials required by the FDA aren't necessarily able to discover the effects of long term use and they aren't necessarily required to compared a drug's effectiveness with the relevant alternatives treatments.

Willravel

As a placebo only, which could be claimed for absolutely anything.

The study I'm sure you're referencing actually demonstrated once and for all that, for back pain, acupuncture works exactly as well as a placebo.

Acupuncture and back pain: some interesting background references – Bad Science

Acupuncture is pseudoscience. It does not work any more than a sugar pill.

GreyWolf

I'm not referring to a single study... I'm referring to dozens of studies that show that acupuncture is a viable alternative for short-term (i.e. needle-in) anesthesia. For example:

Neurobiology of Acupuncture: Toward CAM -- Ma 1 (1): 41 -- Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine
Acupuncture Analgesia: II. Clinical Considerations -- Wang et al. 106 (2): 611 -- Anesthesia & Analgesia
Acupuncture for peripheral joint osteoarthritis: A systematic review and meta-analysis -- Kwon et al. 45 (11): 1331 -- Rheumatology

Now a study in the NEJM did find that there was no significant difference in the perceived reduction of pain in a double-blind study, but it was an uncharacteristically sloppy piece of work for a study to be published there. A cursory scan of the peer-reviewed literature finds that most well-designed studies show a significant effect for acupuncture.

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Willravel

None of those compared the effect directly to placebo in the way that the New England Journal did. I don't see any reason to stop being skeptical.

filtherton

Speaking of placebos, I thought
this was fairly interesting.

If the authors of this article are to be believed, if prozac was subject to the FDA approval process right now, it would fail to show significant effectiveness over placebo and would thus not get approval.

ratbastid

Sure, sure. Didn't mean to imply I'm all for herbals and all against homeopathics. There are some herbal remedies that are ages-old, safe, and reliable. Problem is, without regulation, it's impossible to know even what's IN something you might take, let alone all the potential side effects and interactions that could happen.

That said, herbal remedies actually do something, which is more than can be scientifically said about homeopathic remedies. Whether that "something" is what you WANT to have happen is another question.

inBOIL

I think this faith in "natural" remedies is an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. People see the health care industry profiting off traditional drugs and assume that the profit is the primary motivating force. Every corporate product then becomes a potential thalidomide, The Man trying to keep you down. Corporate medicine becomes wholly evil in their minds, and as a consequence, the opposite (so-called natural medicine) becomes wholly good. The dangers that can arise from untested and unregulated medicine are psychologically minimized, just as the dangers of corporate medicine are exaggerated. It's a process that we're all prone to, and it's much easier than researching things on a case-by-case basis.

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Plan9

Natural selection joke here.

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ametc

I grew up in an Asian household.. so homeopathic remedies have been around me since I was born.

They actually do work... but they usually just help the symptoms and not always the problem at hand.

I like "cupping". (Take heated round cups and stick them onto a person's body and it creates pressure which relieves tension and pain.)
I like herbal remedies. Though, if you make these a daily routine, your body may become immune to its effects. :P
Acupuncture is alright.. not the best.. but it can help muscle pain and back pain.
Crystal therapy is more meditation than anything else. And meditation has been proven to work in many instances. I was watching a documentary on TV where they're trying to find a way to incorporate it into hospitals. (meditation.. not crystal therapy)


My mother knows a lot of remedies.. especially remedies for babies since she is the oldest of thirteen children and had to take an active role in her siblings' lives. I've seen her use these remedies.. and I thought she was crazy.. until they actually worked. She can stop hiccups without the use or water or holding your breath. She uses lint and puts it on a person's forehead. And.. they stop instantly. She does stuff with the lint that concerns the person's bodily fluids.

So.. for the most part, homeopathic remedies are good but shouldn't be thought of as above taking medicine a doctor prescribes you.

telekinetic

Homeopathic has a very specific meaning. Nothing you described in this post has anything to do with homeopathy, nor does homeopathy have anything to do with Asia.

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twisted no more

GreyWolf

The problem with the NEJM study was that it did not in any way have a placebo. That's why the comment about the sloppiness. The study didn't support the finding that acupuncture was ineffective. What it did find was that the "traditional" placement of the needles as being at certain vital spots is not supported. It indicates that the presence of the needle is sufficient to induce anesthesia, regardless of loci.

It is the presence of the needle that induces the effect, not the location. The effect is shown in that study, as well as many other studies that did include placebo artefacts (needle + placebo vs needle + drug vs needle alone).

Acupuncture works.

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The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.

telekinetic

Howabout this study from the Clinical Journal of Pain, where they used sham needles that retracted instead of piercing, so that both the researchers and the patients were blind to which group was real? It seems to address the concerns you listed above.

Acupuncture for Treatment of Persistent Arm Pain Due to Repe... : The Clinical Journal of Pain

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twisted no more

Halx

Most of this stuff is placebo. It can be dangerous.

To give you an example of how POWERFUL the placebo effect is, there is such thing as placebo surgery. That is, patients are told that they will have arthroscopic knee surgery to relieve pain, but the doctor just cuts their skin to mimic incisions. The result? Pain free for a good 3 months.

Don't get wrapped up in some remedy that appears to be working. It could be your brain.

Also, take the product "Airborne" for another example. It claimed to prevent you from catching cold if you took it before you were at risk. This, of course, is bullshit. All this product contains are vitamins. Still, the company made millions of dollars as word spread. In the end, they could not prove their claim and had to pay millions in damages as well as change the wording on their label. Placebo.

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MSD

Homeopathy is treating illness with a compound dissolved in water to a such a point that you would need a volume of water the size of our solar system to allow each dose to have a single molecule in each dose.. Acupuncture is sticking needles into people in places where some guys hundreds of years ago said to stick them with no knowledge of how the human body works. Herbal medicine, when it works, works because there is an active compound in the mixture that has physiological effects, but with no guarantee of how much active ingredient or how little contaminant is present.

In every case, if it cannot perform better than placebo in a double blinded study, it doesn't work and people who sell it are being scammed. Homeopathy has never legitimately passed this test. Acupuncture has never passed this test. Plenty of herbal medicines have, and the active compounds have been isolated and tested on their own to allow for consistent and safe dosages, which we call "medicine."