Bill O'Rights

Back in the Paleozoic, I was a Boy Scout. I was one merit badge away from being awarded the rank of Eagle Scout. Now, 30-40 years later, in addition to all of the other crap that I do, I also serve as an adult leader in my son's Cub Scout Pack. As such, I belong to a "Scouter's Forum". There is a Committee Chairman out there that has a problem with a boy, that is a self professed athiest being awarded his duly deserved rank of Eagle simply because of his religious views. Here was his quandry;
SM = Scout Master, by the way. My response to this was as follows;
Am I wrong? Back in my day very little was made of the religious aspect of the Boy Scouts. Frankly, I got a lot out of scouting. A scout's personal religious beliefs were never brought to the front and put on display in such a blatant display of power over a scout. But, then again, I hail from a small town where my own troop leader's knew what church that I belonged to, and that I was active in it. Obtaining the rank of Eagle is no easy feat. To deny this young man that award, based simply upon his own religious beliefs, is, in my eyes, reprehensible. Fortunately, it seems that about as many agree with me as do the "Grand Inquisitor". There is hope yet for the Boy Scouts.

So, how about it, TFP? How do you view the Boy Scouts? Religious organization, or service organization? Should the young man, in question, be awarded the highest rank that a Boy Scout can achieve? Or, should he forever bear the burden of having stood up for what he believes?

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

warrrreagl

Just like any successful organization, the Boy Scouts would be wise to be adaptable. You are right - today's view of God and Religion are different than when we were kids. I see nothing wrong with The Boy Scouts accepting that times have changed, and making the necessary accomodations to be more broadly appealing. It is possible to do that without destroying the core of what it means to be a Boy Scout.

You da man, Bill O'Rights!

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snowy

You are absolutely right, Bill.

My honey is an Eagle scout, and so is one of my best friends. Neither of them are religious, yet they are/were excellent Eagle scouts. They know how to be reverent, even if they aren't faithful.

Considering the time and effort that goes into completing a well-done Eagle project, it would be horrible for that gentleman not to sign off. The Boy Scouts are a service organization, as illustrated by the main project requirement of completing the Eagle.

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PonyPotato

My SO is a Scoutmaster. And Eagle Scout. I'll have to ask him his opinion on this and get back to you.

For the record, I agree with your point of view, Bill.

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Anormalguy

Kudos to you, Bill. I don't think that his religious views should stop him from receiving the Eagle Scout honor, especially since he was previously advanced while his views were clearly known.

There was a national news story a few years back, which was basically the same issue (my apologies, I have no idea how it turned out). A woman that I worked with & her fiance were involved with the scouts, and she was adamant that he should not be allowed to make Eagle Scout. Her view was since he took the oath, he was worn to it. I said BS, his accomplishments as a acout shouldn't be tied to God or religious beliefs.

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Daniel_

In 1976 I became a Cub Scout. I stayed in the movement for 20 years in various capacities, and now my daughter is a Cub Scout (as they're co-ed in the UK).

As a Cub I was the youngest second of my pack, and the youngest Sixer.

I earned more badges than any other kid in my pack, and when I became a Scout I was the youngest Assistant Patrol Leader we'd ever had, the youngest Partol Leader, and when the Troop was expanded so much that it had to be split into two watches, I was the first Senior Patrol Leader in the Troop's history.

I attended a Church junior and middle school, and went to Church with the Scout group (but never my family) for as long as I was in it.

UK Scouting does not have Eagle Scout rank, but has Chief Scouts Award, which I believe is similar, and Queen's Scout which is awarded once or twice a generation in a given troop.

At the review board for my Chief Scout's Award, I was asked if I believed in God, and admitted that I did not. I was barred from the Award.

I continued to work towards the requirements for the Queen's Scout's Award and was denied that also due to my failure to hold the Chief Scout Award and refusal to believe in God.

Over 20 years later it still rankles.

If you can find a form of acceptance that allows the boy to be granted his Eagle Scout rank, it is your duty to the Scout Movement to help, I think.

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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cj2112

the requirements are listed on the official Boy Scouts of America website FOUND HERE.

Notice it says "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references." It does not say he must believe in god, just that he must live by the principles. I think the committee chair needs to realize that if the boy lives by the principles of the scout oath, he has fulfilled the requirements. Whether or not the boy believes in god is inconsequential.

I'd also remind the chair that he needs to re-read the meaning of the scout law found on pages 47-54 of the 11th edition of "The Boy Scout Handbook" (or HERE). He should particularly apply the meaning of "A scout is kind" to his decision. As well as the part about respecting the beliefs of others found in a scout is reverent. If the chair can't apply those principles in his own life, then he certainly can't judge whether this boy applies them.

God of Thunder

You are not wrong. I believe this boy has done the work and deserves the rank of Eagle.

I had to explain this to a number of adult leaders in my day. Too many times they wanted to turn the board of review into a lightning round of a quiz show. Once a counselor or scoutmaster has signed off on a merit badge/rank requirement, IT IS COMPLETED!!! You MAY NOT question the boy on it again. The purpose of the review is to give the scout real-world preperation for things like job interviews.

As far as the religious aspect of it, nowhere does it state what religion he should follow. The BSA is a non-denominational organization. Other scouts have been forced out because of their atheist views however.

If I sat on the board of review, I would not hold him back because of religious views.


And that is the opinion of an Eagle Scout, class of 1987.
Vigil Honor 1987.
I served on my district's advancement committee. I was also a committee chairman, a unit commissioner, Assistant District Commissioner, commissioner of the year and a district award of merit recipient.

But, I'm retired now.

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I reject your reality, and substitute my own

-- Adam Savage

uncle phil

The Scout Oath contains the phrase;
On my honor I will do my best
to do my duty to *God* and my country.

key phrase - I will do my best...

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spindles

The kid should get the badge. The guy is being an ass. I think he *is* doing his best to do his duty to God - he can't help it that he doesn't have faith in the existence of God, but he was up front about it.

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yournamehere

First of all - BOR- One merit badge shy? I just couldn't imagine that! Of course, that's coming from someone who never made it past First Class. 14-year olds can fall prey very easily to other, less constructive pastimes. Congratulations to your success, and to so many others on here who are or know so many Eagle Scouts. It is surely an accomplishment to be very proud of.

Second, I agree that the BSA is a service-oriented organization. On one hand, I wouldn't have so much of a problem if a Troop didn't allow an atheist to join (although I'd suggest they keep up with the times); but after allowing him to participate to the point of his passing all of the difficult requirements to be an Eagle Scout - that would be very unjust.

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Charlatan

I was involved in Scouts for many years. I was the youngest sixer in my Cub pack, I was a Patrol leader and lead Patrol leader, I was part of an elite group of service Scouts that were chosen from across Toronto, etc. I was also a Chief Scout (same as an Eagle Scout only Canadian). Religion was a part of Scouting.

My first Scout troop was affiliated with a Salvation Army (we met in the basement) and we often visited the church for events. Our troop leader was quite active in the church as well. The second troop I was in was based out of a school gym and there was a lot less religion (overtly or otherwise). I do remember the oaths and all the God stuff but for the most part it just washed over me. I didn't know what I really believed. It wasn't until I was in my late teens and a few years out of Scouting that I became an avowed atheist. I wasn't ready at that age to make a stand.

That said, I think Scouts does need to make a decision on the religion aspect but feel that Scouts will do what they always do... take the conservative route. As they did with the issue of homosexuality, they will bury their head in the sand of history and ignore that the world is changing. I have not enrolled either of my kids in Scouts. I had a number of great experiences with Scouts but also a few terrible ones. When I add into the mix the religious and militaristic aspects of the organization, I am not interested in adding this sort of stuff to my children's experience. What I long for is an organization like Scouts but without those two particular aspects.

Yes, the kid should get the badge but I will be surprised if he does.

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JStrider

as an agnostic/athiestic eagle scout... give the kid his badge. I think the respecting of others beliefs part of "reverent" is much more important then actually believing in a god.

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-=JStrider=-

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Punk.of.Ages

I was in the Boy Scouts for three weeks before I was asked to leave/kicked out of the troop in my neighborhood for not attending a Mormon church or adhering to Mormon beliefs...

Things seem to be a bit different in Utah as far as the BSA is concerned. Everyone in my family was treated the same way for their lack of Mormon belief.

That said, I'm glad it's not that way in all Scout troops. Good on you, BO'R

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JumpinJesus

He's not adhering to the oath to do his duty to God. He's a self-professed atheist. That means to him there is no god. He's breaking his scout oath to be honest every time he repeats that oath when he promises to do his duty to an entity he believes does not exist. He should not be awarded the highest award in an organization whose oath he cannot uphold?

What's next? Allowing homosexuals to be scouts?

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Xerxys

^^ Lets form an anti-SM atheist club. SM can mean whatever you want it to. I just want to follow you because you sound like a very passionate man.

We had scouts and I dropped out when they were teaching us the National Pledge. It started with, "I pledge my loyalty ..."

Xerxys vows fealty to no one!

Plan9

What is... a dangerous paramilitary survivalist organization that relies strictly on recruiting youth?

...

And they don't even sell cookies.

...

Religion is so last century.

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Whatever you can carry.

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levite

Well, I think you're 100% right, Bill. Scouts are supposed to be a service or community organization, not a religious group. If this boy enjoys scouting and wishes to advance, nothing should stand in his way but the honest requirements of the merit badges. Good for you for answering as you did.



Of course, take what I say with a grain of salt. I made it six months in Cub Scouts before dropping out, from sheer boredom and near-fatal overdose of suburbiana....

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Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

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Bill O'Rights

Yep. Citizenship in the World. The merit badge counsellor for it was also my high school social studies teacher. He held a rather severe dislike for me and basically ensured that I would not pass the requirements for that badge. Yes, he was an unfair prick. But, it was also one of life's lessons, that he unwittingly provided, that I was able to take away from it.

A dangerous paramilitary survivalist organization that relies strictly on recruiting youth? I don't see the danger. At least any more danger than in any other youth oriented organization. Paramilitary? Only in the respect that it is a uniformed organization. That helps to keep the class structure at bay. Well, I do teach them some very basic drill movements. But, have you ever been in a room with a dozen 7-8 year olds? I do it more to instill a bit of order and discipline to an otherwise chaotic mess. And, the boys like it. Survivalist? Well...we go camping and hiking. No, we are not training the next generation of Idaho Militiamen. Recruiting youth? Well...yeah. It's a youth organization. Who else would we recruit?

Nope. We sell popcorn. Want to buy a box?

It seems, to me, that many local organizations use the Boy Scouts to further an anagenda. Or, at the very least, to provide a religious youth group within thier own churches. That, I don't believe, is what it's supposed to be about. Yes, there are some religious undertones within the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. I do not have now, nor have I ever had, a problem with that. Religion, to me, is a very personal thing. That is between you and your god. Not me. And, quite frankly, I would be willing to bet a glazed donut that the young man in question leads his life, in the principles of scouting, far better that the over zealous Committee Chair that would prevent him from obtaining that which he has earned, simply for failing to fall in lockstep with his own personal beliefs. It's a sad situation.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Plan9

Bill... Bill... I was kidding. I was a Boy Scout for a while myself.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Bill O'Rights

Umm...yeah...I knew that.
So...you wanna buy a box of popcorn?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

snowy

We ALWAYS get the Boy Scout popcorn in the student care packages I get from my work. It's pretty good, actually! But my SO's former troop sells Christmas trees as their primary fundraiser, and we get one for free if my SO volunteers to go out and supervise the Scouts when they're meant to be trimming them. If he doesn't make it--we buy one anyway.

Kinda nice!

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Troublebot

Bill, you've already got pleanty of answers, but chalk up another Eagle Scout in the "Give the kid the damn badge" catagory.

Back when I was in college, a friend wrote an editorial in the college newspaper about BSA and barring gays and athiests. In the next edition, the local BSA chairman wrote in, saying that the BSA is a private organization and they didn't have to include anyone they didn't want to (and I'm deeply paraphrasing here).

I got pissed. I wrote the very next week about my own experiences in scouting and how they taught me to be inclusive. To strive to better understand others, especially those I disagreed with. I ended by telling him that if scouting had truly changed that much, he could contact me and take my Eagle Badge back, I wasn't going to want it anymore.

Never heard back, but I'm guessing he didn't read it. I doubt I scared him away. Too bad some folks have to create exclusion instead of continuing what I always considered a great program.

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roachboy

my brother was a scoutmaster for a local troop the past 3 years and still works with them as an emeritus dude.
and we had a conversation about this last night, strangely.
he claims that the problem is that the bsa was sold to the mormons sometime in the 50s, which explains the emphasis on god, whic apparently wasn't the case in the same way previously, and other strange things like the fact that it is only in the united states that girls and boys are separated. which is why the united states cannot host a world jamboree. which he attended, along with his troop, a couple years ago.
pressure from outside of late (over the past few years) has also made the conservative xtian thing at the level of ownership more obvious as the bsa retreated into being a private organization in order to refuse to adapt to the times in some ways.

from what i've seen, though, that scouting is for folk varies from place to place, troop to troop and has little to do with the bsa proper. my brother's troop provides a pretty amazing range of experiences for the kids, who seem to enjoy and benefit from it all greatly. 10 eagles in 3 years. that kind of thing. and they regard the bsa organization as a pain in the ass. necessary in some ways for them to do what they do, but a pain in the ass nonetheless.


as for myself, i was a dismal failure as a boy scout.
i like the ham radio jamborees though, even as the radio operators who were kind enough to host me as a kid never actually found any of the traffic and i spent the time listening to static and looking at radio dials. the experience probably had some impact on the music i do and listen to these days. but that's another story.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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GreyWolf

Look at the Scouts' Oath in an historical context. When Baden-Powell was developing scouting, EVERYONE believed in God (atheists are a modern invention, didn't you know?). So the inclusion of God in the oath was simple boiler-plate oath building. No one would have accepted an oath that didn't invoke a deity. The intent was to emphasize the importance of adhering to cultural norms, of becoming good, law-abiding, functional adults. It was not intended as an affirmation of the existence of God (everyone already knew he existed), or a promise to abide by any particular sect's interpretation of his wishes. The oath was a ritualistic appeal to a higher power.

Nowadays, atheists abound, doubt is rampant, and people are free to say things that would have gotten them ostracized, stoned, or beheaded a couple of hundred years ago. Today, the oath actually has more meaning than was originally intended for it. That an atheist would want to be a Scout, in spite of the reference to God in the oath, is no more surprising than a non-Catholic teaching at a Catholic school. It's about the teaching, not the religion. Scouting is about the life-skills, not the oath.

So give the poor kid his Eagle Scout, and concentrate on the meaning of scouting, not the words.

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World's King

Wait for it... wait for it...



I'm an Eagle Scout. Shocking. I know.

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