KellyC

Link: Seattle Students Could Graduate With a D Average

This is beyond absurd to me. And here I thought a C average was already too easy, especially given the current state of education in this country for primary education. When I was in high school, all you had to do to get an A' was do your home work and turn in your notes. I saw so many people getting good grades with this simple solution. From talking to them, I doubt they learned any thing, but at least they did the work to get the grades and graduate. I was one of those kids who barely did anything in high school and even then I still graduated with a B- average. I'm not proud of it so this is not bragging but rather pointing out how easy it all was. I can't see anything positive out of this. It's a permission to be even more lazy if this pass. Low expectation will produce poor results.


Are kids nowadays really that dumb that we have to resort to this?

What was your graduation requirement? Did you fail, meet, or exceed it?

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Shauk

needs to be a B+ or retest imo. People in this country are already pathetically lazy, I can't believe they think their degrees need to default to them just because "oh well I put forth a minimal effort, it was so hard showing up to 60% of my classes and skimming my books"

If I were the President and I heard about something like this on the table, I'd have to personally intervene in any way possible to prevent the dumbing down of society.

We're straight up headed for idiocracy.

SSJTWIZTA

in highschool i did nothing. i went to a shit hole school that sucked all ambition out of me. 3500 kids in a school built for 1500. understaffed and over crowded. we ate lunches in the hallway..there was no cafeteria. i'm looking at my transcript right now, it says i had a 1.85 GPA.

i transferred. i still slept and didnt give a shit, but i actually did my work. my gpa kicked up to a 3.51 with an avarge grade of 92%. my combined gpa's equal a mere 2.68

god, i was an apathetic little fucker.

these kids must be trying less than i did.

oh, and yeah. im pretty sure a D was a passing grade.

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Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
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GreyWolf

Well, I'm in the older crowd, but in my day you could graduate with a C average (although my father would have killed any of us who dared that, lol).

I have friends who "failed"; didn't get a C average. They were held back because they weren't intellectually ready to deal with the material in the next grade. So, they ended up graduating a year late, or in rarer cases, 2 years late. But they graduated, achieving at least a C average based on objective standards. They were still my friends, and my age cohorts. I thought no less of them as friends because of their academic shortcomings.

Now, with the dumbing down of the education system (yes, it really has happened), it takes an Herulean effort to have your child held back if (s)he is not ready for the next grade, be it academically or emotionally. My neighbour had this situation. His son was slow to develop, but went through kindergarten and grade one with the kids his age, including my son. He simply could not deal with grade one & it took many meetings with the school administration, social workers, doctors, and the parents to allow him to repeat the first grade. His aural dyslexia was finally diagnosed, and controlled, and he has progressed normally ever since.

I cannot fathom how a higher grade teacher can stand the frustration of dealing with children who really through no fault of their own have been advanced without having mastered certain key concepts. I do know the frustration of children forced to sit through class after class as those teachers try to bring those other students up to speed.

There is nothing magic about advancing with the kids of your own age. Reason must return to the education system before it is too late.

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Baraka_Guru

It's not entirely a bad thing to graduate with a D average on the individual level.

You'd be surprised at the number of people with university degrees who are working for high-school dropouts.

The education system isn't set up for everyone. It's set up for those who are keen on learning by sitting still and listening, and then occasionally demonstrating their knowledge....with a pen...or a Word processor.

This isn't for everyone.

This is not to say that everyone earning a D average isn't well suited for this mode of education. But I'm willing to bet that many D students excel at a host of other useful things and may not even know it.

A lack of--or a poor performance in--formal education is not a sign of being "dumb." It may be a sign that you need to take matters into your own hands if you want to be successful.

My brother graduated high school with a D average, and several years later he dropped out of college in the first term. He's now happily married with two young kids. He's a homeowner and makes a few dollars more per hour than I do despite living in an area with a much lower cost of living than mine. His trade (oil burner mechanic) is in such high demand that he could easily move to Toronto and nearly double his income.

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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GreyWolf

In the book The Millionaire Next Door, the authors talk about a professor (in Chicago, I believe), who told them about his best ever student, a student he still collaborated with from time to time. This student was very rich, a self-made millionaire. In university, he had one B. He was furious about it. He deplored the wasted effort in getting more than a C. His rationale was that employers looked only at the degree, not the marks attained to get it. Instead of working towards A's, he spent his time as a salesman, as a member of the Faculty Club networking (yes, they are usually open to students as well), and as a member of a local golf club, again to network with the wealthy. He actually made money while in university, something very few people ever do.

Now, if my kids ever try to pull that, I'll throttle them, but that's just me. I do believe that the push for all kids to go to university (at least here in Canada) is not a good thing. It's not for everyone. As B_G mentioned about his brother, "lowly" tradesmen can, and do, make excellent livings. Try getting a tradesmen to do some work at your house. They're tougher to get than doctors a lot of the time.

Academics isn't for everyone, and far too many confuse education with intelligence.

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The_Jazz

Well, it all depends on what you want out of life now, doesn't it? If you don't aspire to do much more than work in the service industry or construction or any other number of degrees that don't take "book learning" for, if not success, a comfortable ride, then who cares? If the school system feels that their D is an equivalent amount of knowledge to another system's C, then so be it.

If these kids aspire to anything else, though, then they need to go to college. I don't know if a community college will admit someone with a D average or not (I suspect that it varies).

I always find it interesting that people mention outliers when it comes to high school dropouts. The overwhelming majority of them work in the most menial of jobs and live in abject poverty. There are probably more liberal arts majors living in homeless shelters than there are millionaire high school dropouts.

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Poppinjay

If stats were kept on this kind of thing, I doubt I would be surprised. An almost totality of studies point to the fact that college graduates do better than high school graduates, and high school graduates do much better than drop outs. The Economist just had the yearly study.

However, at least down here in Canada's tummy, a drop out can get a GED and then go on to college. In that sense, there would be a favorable disparity between them and those who stopped at their HS diploma.

Also, in America, most "tradesmen" have more than a diploma. Even landscaping businesses here ask for an Associate's degree when hiring. And anything to do with electrical, plumbing, carpentry or general contracting usually requires an extensive licensing course and testing.

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percy

The grading system is antiquated, subjective and has little to do with actual learning. Take someone who has a 90% average, who followed the system of memorization and regurgitation, and test them a year later to see what they learned. Short term memory is wonderful for high grades, but does little in the pursuit of actual learning.

In high school I had a C average and university a B average and believe me, that was diificult for me. Not the material or my ability to understand it, but rather the fact that I am terrible at writing exams. If I could do my exams orally, I would have received A+'s instead of B's easily. Which is another reason I opted for writing essays over exams to lessen the mark alotted to the exams I had to write..

Slightly off topic,...when I was in school, memorization and regurgitation was the rule of thumb regarding teaching. I don't know if that has changed. When schools start teaching people to think and learn, and them encourage the pupil's interests in or out of school, will be when we have a populace that excels in those interests. The person graduating with a D probably has little or no interest in what they were studying, and no one took the time to figure out their interests. Doesn't mean having a system that caters to each student, but instilling a concept in that person as how something relates to their interests will go a long way.

And what Baraka Guru said.

LordEden

I don't remember what my HS GPA was, but I'm thinking it bottom of the line 2.6 or something like that. I know I never hit 3.0 in HS. I know many kids held back and dropped out because they couldn't get a "C" average. A few went on to get a GED from the local community college.

College was a different story. I struggled with my GPA because I slacked off my first semester at the 4-year (I had a 2.2 GPA in community college) and got myself on Academic Probation the 2nd semester. I had a 1.7 GPA my first year in college. I had to have a 2.49 to graduate from the College of Business... I *BARELY* got that. My GPA was a balancing act and so was my course load. I made A's in computer, history, literature classes (with the help of an saint-like editor who knew what syntax, irregular verbs, and run on sentences was) but made C's/D's in math, economics, science classes. Through the help of a wonderful Academic adviser and a self-taught thorough knowledge of how to work the system, I made it though college .01 point below what was needed to graduate. I shouldn't have got my degree but I did. I really only passed by finding loopholes in the system and the fact that I can memorize textbooks to the point I can regurgitate them onto tests.

I hate school but love to learn. Classes I loved being in I excelled in, classes I thought had no bearing on my world, I slept through and generally was high all the time in them. Some people are good test takers, some are not. Part of me wants to yell about "MTV2 generation" and how dumb kids are now-a-days. Part of me wants to yell about how standardized tests are crap and the bullshit that you have to go through in schools isn't applicable in real world situations. I'm completely on the fence about this one.

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Baraka_Guru

I admit I was speaking about the exception, not the rule. I was just trying to point out that a failure to succeed in the traditional school system does not automatically mean a failure in life.

What I'm referring to is also more of an aspect of the boomer generation, and not quite of any generation that followed.

Yes, times have changed, but today's high-school dropout still has a number of options for an "alternative" education.

The mainstream system is broken. Still.

* * * * *

And as an anecdote: my high-school average was probably a C+...maybe a C. I was an A student in business school at the college level and a B+ student at the undergraduate university level in the liberal arts (this would have likely been a higher average if I hadn't suffered a traumatic experience in my first year).

I hated high school. I failed grade 12 math three times, and preceding that only had a C average in math, and yet managed to receive A's in business mathematics and several accounting courses at the college level.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

LoganSnake

The continued mental degradation of the United States ftw.

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roachboy

well, this is a little complicated.

i don't see any reason why kids should not graduate with a d average if that's what they earned in high school. no reason at all.
what that precludes, though, is going straight from high school into college, simply as a tactical move. this is not at all a bad thing to have happen, it seems to me. university education is largely wasted on 18 year olds. in my experience teaching at that level, most who were not already forced (and i mean that in the main) into a track like engineering or pre-med from the outset (pending their encounter with the weeder classes of course) typically had no idea at all of what they were doing in university until sometime in their junior year. and it went the same way for me---so i figure it's probably better to not start college until you're 20 or 21. by then you have an idea of why you're there. you don't simply expect it. and you always have recourse to one or another of those Redemption Narratives (you know, back then i didn't know, but then a Conversion Experience happened and Now I Have Clarity--there are a million variants of this basic narrative. admissions programs eat that stuff up)

i find it a little strange to read that fucking off in high school is the fault of high schools, though.
i did as little as possible in high school and managed to graduate with--i think--a b+ average.
i also thought high school a joke--but really, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to maintain a decent average.
to get a D you almost have to make it a mission.
so it really is your own doing if you ended up with that low an average.
high school sucks, it's dysfunctional and all that: so therefore it makes sense to do badly?

to my mind the problem with high school was that it was way too easy. way too easy and way too boring. it seemed to me an example of what happened--i'm paraphrasing a quote from someplace that i saw recently here--the village was remade to accomodate the village idiot.
if that's the case, then it requires almost no particular effort to do reasonably well.
and it's not like doing badly indicates some Grand Insight or amounts to a fuck you to the Man.
no-one cares particularly.
capitalism does not tremble.

but again it's not like a d average outta high school speaks to much beyond where your head was at when you were 17. which is typically not much of anyplace. fortunately you have these redemption narratives, and once you know that, any chump can write one. the future's wide open. everyone a movie star. yes indeed.

and social class has nothing to do with any of this.

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KellyC

Of course there's going to be exception to the rule every time. High school drop outs are either too smart that they don't need it or too lazy and don't give a damn. I can think of a few members in here who fit into the former category. Kids with special needs should be addressed accordingly, not lowering down the standard. I mean, is this any different than school districts lowering the test score standards because the kids couldn't get high enough grades required by State or Fed? Yes the system is fucked up. This is another showcase of it being so.

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percy

Agreed again with everything.

I would like to see each high school kid have to work for 1 year right out of high school, get an apartment and pay their bills with no support before venturing into post secondary education. Believe me, they would be much better prepared to return to school knowing what they wanted to study, rather than be undeclared for their first 3 years, and will take there studies seriously.

I had a chick in a first year class who, when was told there would be no practise exams, no study groups etc,..just everything from the required readings and lectures on the exams, she started bawling her eyes out,...in front of everyone. What,..we don't get the answers like in high school that makes the teachers and school boards look good because of our above average grades??

Certainly not ready for university, certainly not ready for life,...and that is where it is supposed to begin, no?

Lasereth

I struggled through high school. My average grade was a B, and that was with me giving 110%, studying for hours before each quiz, etc. I always had a hard time learning from the way teachers taught in high school. Some classes made sense to me and I excelled in them; others I had trouble passing. I made 2 Ds in high school. My GPA ended up being 3.5ish which was abysmally low to me considering I gave it my all.

College was more challenging, but easier at the same time if that makes sense. It required more work, but it was easier to control your grade because if you put forth effort, in most cases it was rewarded. There were a few classes (mainly math classes) that I had some major trouble with and ended up with a really low B in but I managed to only make 1 C all four years: a modern theatre history class that I took as a humanity course. There were 29 senior theater majors in it and me (a freshman computer major). I got into the course a few days late because there was nothing left to take. Me, being a freshman, had no idea that syllabuses were to be asked for and not given out, so I had no idea that the next class period there was a project due that couldn't be turned in late. It was my only 0 all four years, and it ended up making me have a C+ average even though I made As and Bs on every other quiz/exam/project in that class.

I guess my point is that even though I struggled through high school and college, I still made good grades, simply because I fucking tried. I ended up with a 3.55 cumulative GPA in college and a 3.85 major GPA, graduated with honors. And I thought it was absolutely beyond hard and took an amazing amount of effort.

My roommate junior year simply gave up. Morale is a huge part of college and some people can't get over a bad morale. You missed one class, oops, might as well fail that class because I can't get caught up, right! Might as well skip that test because I was at a party and didn't have time to study! I would have failed it anyway!

I think a C average is OK to get a degree, but only barely. Anything below that and the person doesn't deserve the degree or the status associated with it. Anyone willing to try their hardest can maintain a C average or above. If you don't take college seriously your first few years and haven't grown up by then and had the will power to do well then you have big problems anyway. It's fucking pathetic when people fail out of college because 99% of the time it's because they just don't give a shit whether they're successful or not.

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powerclown

School is not for everyone. Besides its Seattle...where the high school electives are "Joint-Rolling Techniques 101" and "Karl Marx: A Celebration of Hope".

The_Jazz

As opposed to Detroit where it's "Carjacking 101" or "GM: The French Surrender Monkeys of the Business World"?

But I'm sure it's a quality education in Detroit.

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Iliftrocks

A C is supposed to be an average grade. A person of average intelligence doing an average amount of work should be able to get one. This would represent most people. People of lower intelligence or work ethic should be able to get a D. A D is supposed to be low-passing, so yes graduate with D's, but you don't get to go on to college, fair enough? Same in college, you could graduate with a D, theoretically, but it doesn't look good on a resume.

A's and B's should be looked on as higher achievements, not minimums. If they are you've watered down what the whole grading system is supposed to represent.

I was a mostly A and B student through high school and college, but there were occasions where I earned much less, ( at least one F ).

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Cynthetiq

can't you put in pussification in that statement?

to the OP:
I don't think that lowering the bar is right way to go.

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Orchrist

I don't see why a D would count as passing but not count for graduating, whats the logic behind that. Personally I was intelligent, but never had good study habits so when I hit material that was hard for me, in junior to senior year of high school, my gpa took a huge hit and I ended up "barely" graduating. I ended up so sick of school because of this that I dropped out of college in the first semester as well. Damn private schools here I was getting railroaded into AP classes with no choice in the matter just setting me up for failure when I was already struggling and apparently there are a-lot of places where you can breeze through, did I ever live in the wrong area. Owell I have a comfortable job now, if not enough as much as I'd like, and I don't have any debts from college so I'd say I'm well enough off without it.

Xerxys

Put me in the camp that would be doing jail time for graduating with a C average. D is just ridiculous.

Bear Cub

Who cares? A high school diploma is useless in today's age. The bachelor's degree has become the high school diploma for everything other than physical labor or administrative assistant positions, and even the latter is questionable.

Besides, the grading system is complete bullshit anyways. A "C" in one state is not the equivalent of a "C" in another state, or another county, or even most sister schools for that matter. God forbid we compare private to public education.

It's all crap. Just imprison them for K-12 as per the norm, and let the ones who give a shit reap the benefits and rewards of a college education.

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Baraka_Guru

I keep thinking about the regional disparity of standards and expectations.

Here in the Toronto area, we have many immigrants from Asia. It wasn't too long ago when I learned was a "Chinese F" was....

...a B grade.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

FelixP

Sounds like my story. I think alot of kids are lazy, but I think most people need to be pushed and need to be challenged to do well. A D average was a passing grade at both high schools I attended, but not at the college my mother works at. My first highschool was a catholic school, and the second was a charter school, so I think people are lazy accross the socio-economic spectrum.

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yournamehere

Reminds me of an old saying:
Those with "A" averages go on to post-graduate degrees and academia.
Those with "B" averages end up working for the guys with "C" averages, who couldn't find jobs and had to start their own business.

It ended up partially true for me - since I got laid off last year, I've been doing occasional consulting for an old college buddy who never graduated.

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Spiritsoar

I don't like the concept of non-graduating D. Either you should graduate D, or you should change the grading scale to A,B,C, and F. Having a score (D) that will allow you to progress through the grades, but not to graduate, is setting kids up for failure.

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filtherton

I went to an alternative high school, one of those "last chance" places. Everyone who satisfied the class requirements got a 4.0.

I was under the impression that grades didn't actually matter any more, because the real point of high school was to satisfy the requirements of No Child Left Behind. I don't see a problem letting D average folks graduate. It's not like a high school diploma means anything anymore.