Evil - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pai mei · 09-04-2009, 12:41 AM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-sto...ression-boom-1/

Quote:

‘I’m choosing meds because we’re all too busy to deal. The pressure of gymnastics, math, plus viola lessons just got too much.’ But, oh my God.”

Why does a child get "depressed" ? Why do you think ? A free child with a space and time to play and interact - play is the way he learns about the world never gets "depressed". A child with his life divided into "schedule" and freedom - of course he is sad. And he does not even know why ! Too young to know about anything else than he sees around.

How can you fill the life of a six year old with "math, viola, gymnastics" ? When does he get time to explore this world where he appeared and he is so curious about ? On his own ? To play - play for children is learning. The best learning there is - about himself , about what he can do, and the only way to gain self trust.

Of course he gets depressed. In time he will become dull, his spirit broken and he will accept everything as "this is how things are". He will integrate into the machine. Put him on meds - and watch him become a zombie adult. An adult with the emotions, questions, impulses of a child. Not allowed to develop.

How would it be like if you went on vacation, and instead of enjoying the sun, going wherever you feel like going, someone forces you into 4 hours of history about the place, followed by 4 hours of whatever, every day ?

This is "inhuman". To schedule life at such a young age is more suited for a machine. For Data from "Star Trek". Not for a living being.
All for "utility". This is our culture. This is not life. Utility for what ? We are mortal.

See here :

These kids are happy. They have no schedule. They are free. Yes their life is hard - but for a while they are free - and happy. This is what life is about : freedom to experience for ourselves - in this way getting to know ourselves. There is no other way. No book can replace this. Deny it - that is real evil...

SSJTWIZTA · 09-04-2009, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fat mike

fuck the kids

on a more serious note, i pretty much agree.
i remember my youth. my parents put me in martial arts so that they could do whatever for 4 or 5 hours while i practiced destroying a cushy foam brick. i would occasionally look out of the window at the kids in the park and sigh.

i just wanted to go out and have fun, not follow orders or practice my form. i could have cared less about such things as a kid.

Reese · 09-04-2009, 01:26 AM

Nice Mis-quote. The actual quote say "I'd love to say, ‘I’m choosing meds because we’re all too busy to deal. The pressure of gymnastics, math, plus viola lessons just got too much.’ But, oh my God.” The woman quoted was saying that she's tried everything and that meds were a last resort.

I honestly don't know what causes it, but I can guarantee it not a new thing. I hear my dad talk about his cousin sometimes and he sounded exactly like the kids described in that article. He was always negative and had outbursts. Of course being the late 60s nobody knew wtf depression was. Well, My dad's cousin grew up and ended up blowing his head off with a shotgun. From the stories I've heard, they should have expected he was suicidal at the age of 12. If medication works, use it. Just don't abuse it.

pai mei · 09-04-2009, 01:45 AM

Among free people - and free children - there is no depression. I recommend the book "The Continuum Concept".

Medicine for this : it's like......I don't know , something really twisted. The problem is not the child.

pai mei · 09-05-2009, 11:51 PM

I read some novels by Leonid Andreyev, the one I remember best is "Petka at the bungalow".

Found the entire book here :
The Little angel : and other stories

Also the first one "The Little Angel" is worth reading. These two explain perfectly all there is to explain.

Some pages from "Petka at the bungalow"

Evil ? Some say it does not exist.
What I wrote here about is the end result. Life denied. More for some, less for others. I kind of agree with the non existence of evil. But cannot let this be and say "everything is as it should be", "nothing matters" and everything else...How can you treat people with medicine for lack of freedom ? Life denied - here take this pill...
Yes you can adapt to everything - not as a child.

http://www.zoriah.net/blog/2009/04/g...ild-labor.html

pai mei · 09-07-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Extreme as putting a child on antidepressants may sound, according to new research, parents like Morgan may have science on their side. Some experts now believe that chronic depression can affect children as young as 3 years old. The groundbreaking study, published this month in the journal Archives of General Psychiatry, found that an astonishing 40 percent of depressed 3- to 6-year-olds remained so over the course of two years, an eternity on a child’s clock.

There is nothing wrong with the children and there never was. Try the book "The Continuum Concept". These "experts" are trying to treat the effect not the cause. Yes it's true the children may be depressed. Search for the cause.
About "evil". It may be done trying to do "good". But it's the end result of the same thinking that got us here. Slaves competing among them on a destroyed planet. Everything is linked.

Quote:

The Importance of the In-Arms Phase

by Jean Liedloff

First appeared in Mothering magazine, Winter 1989

In the two and a half years during which I lived among Stone Age Indians in the South American jungle (not all at once, but on five separate expeditions with a lot of time between them for reflection), I came to see that our human nature is not what we have been brought up to believe it is. Babies of the Yequana tribe, far from needing peace and quiet to go to sleep, snoozed blissfully whenever they were tired, while the men, women, or children carrying them danced, ran, walked, shouted, or paddled canoes. Toddlers played together without fighting or arguing, and they obeyed their elders instantly and willingly.
The notion of punishing a child had apparently never occurred to these people, nor did their behavior show anything that could truly be called permissiveness. No child would have dreamed of inconveniencing, interrupting, or being waited on by an adult. And by the age of four, children were contributing more to the work force in their family than they were costing others.

Babes in arms almost never cried and, fascinatingly, did not wave their arms, kick, arch their backs, or flex their hands and feet. They sat quietly in their slings or slept on someone's hip — exploding the myth that babies need to flex to "exercise." They also did not throw up unless extremely ill and did not suffer from colic. When startled during the first months of crawling and walking, they did not expect anyone to go to them but rather went on their own to their mother or other caretakers for the measure of reassurance needed before resuming their explorations. Without supervision, even the smallest tots rarely hurt themselves.
Is their "human nature" different from ours? Some people actually imagine that it is, but there is, of course, only one human species. What can we learn from the Yequana tribe?
Our Innate Expectations

Primarily, we can try to grasp fully the formative power of what I call the in-arms phase. It begins at birth and ends with the commencement of creeping, when the infant can depart and return at will to the caretaker's knee. It consists, simply, of the infant having 24-hour contact with an adult or older child.
At first, I merely observed that this in-arms experience had an impressively salutary effect on the babies and that they were no "trouble" to manage. Their bodies were soft and conformed to any position convenient to their bearers — some of whom even dangled their babies down their backs while holding them by the wrist. I do not mean to recommend this position, but the fact that it is possible demonstrates the scope of what constitutes comfort for a baby. In contrast to this is the desperate discomfort of infants laid carefully in a crib or carriage, tenderly tucked in, and left to go rigid with the desire for the living body that is by nature their rightful place — a body belonging to someone who will "believe" their cries and relieve their craving with welcoming arms.
Why the incompetence in our society? From childhood on, we are taught not to believe in our instinctive knowledge. We are told that parents and teachers know best and that when our feelings do not concur with their ideas, we must be wrong. Conditioned to mistrust or utterly disbelieve our feelings, we are easily convinced not to believe the baby whose cries say "You should hold me!" "I should be next to your body!" "Don't leave me!" Instead, we overrule our natural response and follow the going fashion dictated by babycare "experts." The loss of faith in our innate expertise leaves us turning from one book to another as each successive fad fails.

It is important to understand who the real experts are. The second greatest babycare expert is within us, just as surely as it resides in every surviving species that, by definition, must know how to care for its young. The greatest expert of all is, of course, the baby — programmed by millions of years of evolution to signal his or her own kind by sound and action when care is incorrect. Evolution is a refining process that has honed our innate behavior with magnificent precision. The signal from the baby, the understanding of the signal by his or her people, the impulse to obey it — all are part of our species' character.
The presumptuous intellect has shown itself to be ill-equipped to guess at the authentic requirements of human babies. The question is often: Should I pick up the baby when he or she cries? Or should I first let the baby cry for a while? Or should I let the baby cry so that this child know who is boss and will not become a "tyrant"?

No baby would agree to any of these impositions. Unanimously, they let us know by the clearest signals that they should not be put down at all. As this option has not been widely advocated in contemporary Western civilization, the relationship between parent and child has remained steadfastly adversarial. The game has been about how to get the baby to sleep in the crib, whether or not to oppose the baby's cries has not been considered. Although Tine Thevenin's book, The Family Bed, and others have gone some way to open the subject up of having children sleep with parents, the important principle has not been clearly addressed: to act against our nature as a species is inevitably to lose well-being.
Once we have grasped and accepted the principle of respecting our innate expectations, we will be able to discover precisely what those expectations are — in other words, what evolution has accustomed us to experience.

Importance of the In-Arms Phase, by Jean Liedloff
Who's in Control? - by Jean Liedloff
The Continuum Concept - Defined

Quote:

Who's in Control?

The Unhappy Consequences of Being Child-Centered

It appears that many parents of toddlers, in their anxiety
to be neither negligent nor disrespectful, have gone
overboard in what may seem to be the other direction. by Jean Liedloff

First appeared in Mothering magazine, Winter 1994

It took some time before the significance of what I was looking at sank into my "civilized" mind. I had spent more than two years living in the jungles of South America with Stone Age Indians. Little boys traveled with us when we enlisted their fathers as guides and crew, and we often stayed for days or weeks in the villages of the Yequana Indians where the children played all day unsupervised by adults or adolescents. It only struck me after the fourth of my five expeditions that I had never seen a conflict either between two children or between a child and an adult. Not only did the children not hit one another, they did not even argue. They obeyed their elders instantly and cheerfully, and often carried babies around with them while playing or helping with the work.
Where were the "terrible twos"? Where were the tantrums, the struggle to "get their own way," the selfishness, the destructiveness and carelessness of their own safety that we call normal? Where was the nagging, the discipline, the "boundaries" needed to curb their contrariness? Where, indeed, was the adversarial relationship we take for granted between parent and child? Where was the blaming, the punishing, or for that matter, where was any sign of permissiveness?
The Yequana Way

There is a Yequana expression equivalent to "Boys will be boys"; it has a positive connotation, however, and refers to the boys' high spirits as they run about and whoop and swim in the river or play Yequana badminton (a noncompetitive game in which all players keep the cornhusk shuttlecock in the air as long as possible by batting it with open hands). I heard many shouts and much laughter when the boys played outdoors, yet the moment they were inside the huts, they lowered their voices to maintain the reigning quiet. They never interrupted an adult conversation. In fact, they rarely spoke at all in the company of adults, confining themselves to listening and performing little services such as passing around food or drink.
Far from being disciplined or suppressed into compliant behavior, these little angels are relaxed and cheerful. And they grow up to be happy, confident, cooperative adults!
How do they do it? What do the Yequana know about human nature that we do not? What can we do to attain non-adversarial relationships with our children in toddlerhood, or later if they have got off to a bad start?
The "Civilized" Experience

In my private practice, people consult me to overcome the deleterious effects of beliefs about themselves formed in childhood.1 Many of these people are parents keen not to subject their offspring to the kind of alienation they suffered at the hands of their own usually well-meaning parents. They would like to know how they can rear their children happily and painlessly.
Most of these parents have taken my advice and, following the Yequana example, kept their babies in physical contact all day and night until they began to crawl.2 Some, however, are surprised and dismayed to find their tots becoming "demanding" or angry — often toward their most caretaking parent. No amount of dedication or self-sacrifice improves the babies' disposition. Increased efforts to placate them do nothing but augment frustration in both parent and child. Why, then, do the Yequana not have the same experience?
The crucial difference is that the Yequana are not child-centered. They may occasionally nuzzle their babies affectionately, play peek-a-boo, or sing to them, yet the great majority of the caretaker's time is spent paying attention to something else...not the baby! Children taking care of babies also regard baby care as a non-activity and, although they carry them everywhere, rarely give them direct attention. Thus, Yequana babies find themselves in the midst of activities they will later join as they proceed through the stages of creeping, crawling, walking, and talking. The panoramic view of their future life's experiences, behavior, pace, and language provides a rich basis for their developing participation.

Being played with, talked to, or admired all day deprives the babe of this in-arms spectator phase that would feel right to him. Unable to say what he needs, he will act out his discontentment. He is trying to get his caretaker's attention, yet — and here is the cause of the understandable confusion — his purpose is to get the caretaker to change his unsatisfactory experience, to go about her own business with confidence and without seeming to ask his permission. Once the situation is corrected, the attention-getting behavior we mistake for a permanent impulse can subside. The same principle applies in the stages following the in-arms phase.

09-04-2009, 01:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	Nice Mis-quote. The actual quote say "I'd love to say, ‘I’m choosing meds because we’re all too busy to deal. The pressure of gymnastics, math, plus viola lessons just got too much.’ But, oh my God.” The woman quoted was saying that she's tried everything and that meds were a last resort. I honestly don't know what causes it, but I can guarantee it not a new thing. I hear my dad talk about his cousin sometimes and he sounded exactly like the kids described in that article. He was always negative and had outbursts. Of course being the late 60s nobody knew wtf depression was. Well, My dad's cousin grew up and ended up blowing his head off with a shotgun. From the stories I've heard, they should have expected he was suicidal at the age of 12. If medication works, use it. Just don't abuse it. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

09-04-2009, 01:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Among free people - and free children - there is no depression. I recommend the book "The Continuum Concept". Medicine for this : it's like......I don't know , something really twisted. The problem is not the child. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

09-05-2009, 11:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	I read some novels by Leonid Andreyev, the one I remember best is "Petka at the bungalow". Found the entire book here : The Little angel : and other stories Also the first one "The Little Angel" is worth reading. These two explain perfectly all there is to explain. Some pages from "Petka at the bungalow" Evil ? Some say it does not exist. What I wrote here about is the end result. Life denied. More for some, less for others. I kind of agree with the non existence of evil. But cannot let this be and say "everything is as it should be", "nothing matters" and everything else...How can you treat people with medicine for lack of freedom ? Life denied - here take this pill... Yes you can adapt to everything - not as a child. http://www.zoriah.net/blog/2009/04/g...ild-labor.html __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game" Last edited by pai mei; 09-06-2009 at 08:16 AM..