i dunno, sir. i don't remember seeing quite the same level of Officially Sanctioned Vitriol when reagan died.
maybe i wasn't looking in the right places.
it's possible.

speaking for myself, i detested the reagan administration.
but it never occurred to me to piss all over his image at the time his death.
you'd think it'd be easy at some moments to separate media-image from human being somewhere behind it.
but hey, maybe these are just my personal limitations.
and maybe because of them i missed out on some fun.
it's happened before.

RB, I'm surprised you don't see the vitriol on your side of the aisle, so to speak. I find myself posting less and less in politics-related forums because I increasingly find that my interlocutors (of any stripe) are unable to understand that there is such a thing as a legitimate alternative point of view that isn't immoral/stupid/bought/evil/[insert epithet here]. The level of discourse is increasingly at the level of "you guys are poopyheads, yay for my team" - without noticing or even acknowledging that the things the alleged poopyheads are doing are also being done by the speaker's ideological allies.

I see no reason to subject myself to vilification over my political views, most of which I think are pretty reasonable, well-thought-out, and often unacceptable to many members of either of our political parties (being suspicious of those who want or have authority and power can do that, you know). I have no desire to be regularly called anarchist or authoritarian (yes, I have been called both, though never by the same person - yet). But one thing this experience does leave me with is the knowledge that there is more than enough nastiness out there to go around. (and you might be surprised to learn that my impression is that lefties are nastier, and with less provocation, but it's only by degrees.)

As for Ted Kennedy, well, let's face it, he did manage to get into the position he was in, and got away with things he shouldn't have gotten away with, merely because of his family. I don't find that immoral - you take your opportunities in life, that's how things are. The lying and sanctimony were annoying, but again, he's a politician, so I'm not sure we should expect all that much different. And we should give him his due: over the years he became very very good at his job -- all the evidence is that he knew how to be a Senator, including all the dealmaking and constituent service, as well as or better than anyone else. If you tell me he was well-regarded by friends and family I'll take your word for it, but that's not terribly informative of how to evaluate his public life, is it? I mean, I'm sure Leonid Brezhnev and Augusto Pinochet both had loving families and adoring friends, but we wouldn't evaluate them based on that, would we? The adulation is quite over the top, though. Maybe we idealize the Websters and Clays because of the glow of history, but it seems to me that Ted Kennedy just wasn't in that category.

Personally, I thought the two best presidents of my lifetime were Clinton and Reagan. But that's a subject for another post.

the vitriol i've definitely noticed. from all sides. my impression is that the root cause is that there's no agreement about premises, so there's little in the way of discussion, much less debate. it turns out that i haven't found much of anything compelling from cookie-cutter conservatism--but i know a bunch of folk who are conservatives with whom it's possible to have lovely conversations about any number of things including political questions. and i know alot of left people who are assholes.

in my experience, i've found it much harder to have a conversation with the more limbaugh-influenced conservatives that i know. there seems to be less room for integration of, say, personal experience or history and political viewpoints when folk adopt--it's more about repetition. you learn the script it seems. sometimes i listen to conservative talking heads for a while if i know i'm going to see any of these folk because i'm interested in the extent to which i will end up having already heard the conversation i'm in before it starts. it usually works out that i've heard quite alot of it. i find that depressing, and not just because i disagree with the politics. it's the lack of imagination that bugs me, really. that in a world as complicated as this you'd settle for that sort of thinking. i don't get it.

messageboard politics discussions can be interesting for the information and sometimes for what folk say, but at the same time i think they're spaces for folk to try things out at times--you know, float a line see what happens. so they can be pretty grim. especially if there's a contentious issue at hand and the discussion isn't going anywhere. and i'm not as into the game as i once was.

as for ted---i should say that i am among those people who personally isn't terribly moved one way or another about his death. i never had a particular interest in or committment to him as an image or person. i just didn't. chappaquidick didn't surprise or disillusion me--it's self-evident that there is a law for the wealthy and a law for everyone else. so it was an example amongst any number of them. around here, alot of folk really admired kennedy, shared alot of his views, thought he was a great senator. again, i was never particularly interested. call it a quirk.

at the same time, it's way way too easy to rehearse all the Officially Sanctioned Reasons Why Ted Kennedy Was A Bad Person. alot of the conservative talking heads that benumb these days got their start contributing to the construction of him as pinata for rightwingers.
it's tiresome.
it's offensive because it's tiresome.
and you couldn't do that nonsense around here because there are many folk around who knew the guy.
i was not one of them.

or it's tiresome because it's offensive. Depends on your angle of approach, I would imagine.

As for the Limbaugh people, I suspect they are more or less intellectually lazy -- he gives them, in an entertaining way, bite-sized nuggets to confirm their existing sentiments. It saves them having to do some work to think things through. In the final analysis the joke is on them because he really is an entertainer first and everything else second. He actually was kinda funny the couple of times I listened to him. But I sure wouldn't look to him or any other talk show host for reasoned, well-developed discourse.

There's plenty of intellectual laziness around on all sides, it's just that on the left it doesn't mainly come from talk radio, it comes from other sources. Again, a lot of this depends on where you look at what you're attuned to.

I'm so extremely impressed by all the great bills Ted passed while in Government. I believe he did alot for people less fortunate than himself and I am pleased so many other middle class and lower middle class people realize this also. It's impressive just how many have been lighting candles and saying good bye to him during this time while he is on his way to repose.

God bless Teddy and Peace to his Family.

Does ANYONE here ever think what an amazing country we could have become if John and Jack had not been asassinated? I'm old enough to remember them and the possiblities therein. I think the USA would have passed on several Wars we've had to endure (for nothing but dead kids) and become so hated worldwide.

John and "Jack" were one and the same. I assume that you meant his brother Bobby?

Er, ok...Bobby. Mea Culpa. I guess I did a boo boo there.

Thank you.

You were what, 8 at the time? Did you really make such an effort to wipe him from your memory banks at such a young age?

I was an incredibly astute 8-year old. I still am.

I'm sure that you were an incredible something at 8 years old...and still are. I'm not sure that "astute" is the adjective that I'd have chosen. The first syllable perhaps. :D

Hey, old buddy, long time no see. How's yer sister? :suave:

Which one? I have two.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...istmas2002.jpg

Oh, yeah. Kennedy. Ummm, er uh, this picture was taken near the shore, but not where Mary Jo drowned. Different shore.

Nice eulogy by Obama this morning.

For something completely different...

Look, it's little Ted Kennedy...still in short pants.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...tedkennedy.jpg

nice camera he's got there. too.

Thanks, Ms. Media.

Your a peach.