SecretMethod70

BROOKLYN HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER SUES DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION OVER HARASSMENT - New York Post

Obviously (or perhaps not) I don't think this teacher was asking for it. I don't know what she was wearing, but whatever it was there's no excuse for the department of education to turn a blind eye when students are harassing their teacher. Maybe some people disagree with me. Is this teacher being oversensitive about teaching pubescent boys? Do you think the teacher could be at all responsible for students harassing her? Is there a point at which the teacher might share responsibility? And what about recent stories of teacher-student sexual relationships? What kind of message does this send if the department of education is willing to allow students sexually harassing their teachers?

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Bear Cub

Probably just scared of a lawsuit by a parent for having their innocent little boy wrongfully accused.


Gotta love it.

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Punk.of.Ages

There's not nearly enough information presented here for me to form a proper opinion, but on impulse my opinion is that nobody deserves to be sexually harassed by anybody else simply because of the way they dress.

Now, understand, I have a girlfriend who's quite aware she has huge boobs and wears shirts that make it very apparent to others. When we go out and somebody says, "Damn, you have nice tits!", she doesn't mind and neither do I. It's kind of expected, but if someone were to try to grab them, they'd be liable to lose their hand.

Of course, this is a different situation. Different lines should be drawn here, but I think that's what this is about. Lines. They're different for different situations, but they're there for a reason, they shouldn't be crossed, and, in this case, they should be enforced.

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Xerxys

I think the teachers today as a whole are in fact asking for this kind of shit. How is it that a teenager speaks to an adult like that? "I got a rubber -- wanna party?" Seriously? OMFG!!

This isn't stuff you grow out of man. I don't think people today can raise kids anymore.

Willravel

I'm sorry, but shouldn't this be something she handles with the parents of these perverted kids instead of the DoE? Doesn't she have punitive authority?

SecretMethod70

Yeah, I'm not sure why she didn't (or if she did) punish the students herself. Perhaps she needed to go to the DoE for certain types of punishment? I don't know. Nonetheless, their "advice" seems rather callous to me.

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Punk.of.Ages

Well, shit. Being that the article said it was the School of Legal Studies, I assumed it was a college and we were talking cocky frat boys here. Then I read "BROOKLYN HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER..."

Fuck, even at that age, I knew saying shit like that wouldn't get me laid...

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Willravel

If I was a woman teacher and a child grabbed me, I'd drag his ass off campus. If the parents bring a suit (which they'd undoubtedly try), the term "sex offender" would probably be enough to shut them up.

Baraka_Guru

When involved with an incident sexual in nature, the last thing a teacher wants to do is deal with the student directly. Think about it.

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dippin

most schools nowadays have moved to a system where punishment is handled either by an "honor committee" or the administration. I don't know what was the case here, but it seems to me that she took the issue to the authorities within the school and they did nothing.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------

I don't know about that particular school. But where I teach (granted, its a university) the policy is that if I see a student committing an infraction, I am supposed to take it to the honor council and not do anything myself. If I see a student cheating off another student, for example, I am not supposed to call out the student publicly, take away his test or do anything that would affect his test taking. I am supposed to make a note of it and bring the two tests to the honor council.

genuinegirly

I don't know the chain of command, but I would think the teacher would have consulted the principal of the high school and the administrators of the school district for support before turning to the department of education.

I'm a little lost with this.

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Charlatan

Administrations need to back up their teachers on this sort of thing... period.

Students need to know the limits and if those limits, clearly set, are crossed. They are expelled or suspended.

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Xerxys

I'm coming up with nothing. Why not?

What?! I'm all for breaking the kids arm and perhaps giving them a minor concussion but why the death sentence that is denying them education? It's the reason they are in school. Parents are either deadbeats or working 3 jobs they can't pay attention to this all the time. Discipline has to be achieved one way or the other.

The system dippin speaks of is moronic. I mean seriously. It encourages the pack mentality highschoolers develop when infractions are encountered and swift action is not taken. All students will gather is "Jenny failed her stats so she can't get her score." or some other rumor when she really was caught cheating and it was handled "quietly".

Public shame and discipline has to be employed. How is suspending them going to give them an education? You have to understand that kids are stupid. They also don't want to be in school. Not being in school is the REAL loss here. Missing classes is also the part we must avoid. Disrupting classes is the same as missing classes too. Their bad behavior is simply because they know nothing else better.

Suspension and expulsion should be for the basest of the delinquents. In the meantime, as long as the neck and spine are intact ... break the little fuckers bones!!

Plan9

I actually concur with Xerxys... the worst possible solution to a disciplinary problem at school is to kick the kid out. Make 'em stay and do something... that's punishment. School is the only structure many young bratlings receive today. School keeps them in line simply by keeping them in a positive environment.

Charlatan has it right. The school needs to back up the teacher 100% unless there is direct evidence that something hinky went down.

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Charlatan

You will not that I did not suggest what the limits were or what infractions are needed to bring about suspension or expulsion.

The gist of my post was Administration backing up their teachers.

The second part is consequences for students that break the rules. These consequences should be effective and go as far as suspension and expulsion.

Part of the problem I hear from many teachers is that they don't get the support they need from their administrators and that consequences that students face when breaking the rules are not effective.

I say, if you want to fuck around and not play by the rules... get the fuck out of school. Take your attitude and get a job. See how far your shit takes you in the world outside of school.

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Plan9

And what pissed off teenager wouldn't get up and leave if they just could? From Whitebread High to Crackland Middle... you'd have a mass exodus, bro.

...

Turns out they don't know what the real world is because their parents don't give a damn or are too busy working 3 jobs. Real-working-class'd!

The philosophy of "Well, they're screwed anyway" seems like a great way to populate the streets with addicts, prostitutes, and hooded figures that'll bludgeon you for the contents of your fancy wallet. I don't know anything about education and social reform, but I do know that if I'd been kept in school instead of being left to my own devices... maybe I wouldn't had to spend half a decade digging my head outta my ass. Somebody has to care.

...

You know what you can get without a high school diploma in the US?

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing it's dangerously close to nothing.

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mrklixx

You make the call....



But seriously, this is at the School for Legal Studies, and they didn't think that ignoring sexual harassment claims wouldn't lead to litigation?!?

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Charlatan

In the land of litigation it is next to impossible for Teachers and Administrators to discipline students without fear of lawsuit.

I was not always like this. Something has broken and I am not sure it can be fixed.

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Manic_Skafe

I am proof enough of the fact that the New York City Public School system is beyond fucked.

Seriously.

-

Also, while there isn't much to go on here, repeated claims of sexual harassment should be more than enough to warrant someone taking it seriously. Ughh.

It's been a good long while since I left high school but as far as I've understood it, expulsion simply entails being kicked out, assessed, punished and either forced to go to another school or allowed to return once your time is served.

No one is permanently denied an education.

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Xerxys

You see Char, if we forcefed school to these kids and they still failed then we have in fact done everything we can for them. Besides the fact that there will be less KFC's due to lack of employees for it, school would guarantee more qualified people. I strongly believe that a good grasp on facts will inherently cause better judgment in a majority of the people provided with these facts.

Also with KFC hiring requirements being only that you must stand for 8 hours a shift makes living a somewhat mediocre life a vicious cycle. My point is The Real Life (tm) can be managed with next to no brains but it doesn't have to be that way.

Charlatan

The real problem with not being able to discipline students isn't what happens to those students but rather the waste of class time for students that *do* want to be in the class as the teacher must waste time to deal with the troubled student.

Perhaps we need to stop making square pegs fit into round holes.

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dippin

Now, to be the devil's advocate a little bit, I understand the original rationale behind taking some of the power from the teacher's hands. Teachers do hold a lot of power over the future of hundreds of kids. But the pendulum has swung too far. The fear of litigation, coupled with the rise of the idea of the "student as a consumer" has in many cases inverted the power relationship.

jewels

Did she ask for it or deserve it? Doubtful.

I think Xerxys brings up a good point, though. Teachers these days seem to lack the skill to discipline and command respect. I remember there were teachers the class wouldn't respond to and others who would walk into a classroom and everyone would shut up. From what I hear from my kids and their friends, this is still the same.

They're trying too hard to be friends and relate, so they become peers instead of respected role models.

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dlish

bring back the cane. that'd command respect!

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Plan9

Cha-ching.

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kutulu

The source article was from the NY Post. They are barely above the level of a tabloid. There isn't enough information in the article to make that judgement.

Strange Famous

Well, like anyone who is the subject of bullying - if you show it hurts people get on your back more.

No, she doesnt "deserve" it, but it was probably in her power to put a stop to it and she didnt... it might sound harsh but unfortunately she maybe isnt cut out to teach.

If some kid made a comment like this she should have put him on detention or a suspension if he didnt turn up for his detention.

We all went to school, and we all knew there were teachers you could puhsh or fuck around with, and people you couldnt - however tough a school it is the same thing goes. I once wound up a teacher so much that he hit me (not as in decked me, but cuffed me round the head) - strangely that made me feel a bit sorry cos I realised the joke went too far (a lot too far) that it drove him to do something that he'd get sacked for if I reported it. We both ended up apologising about it to each other.

There were other teachers who didnt even have to hint at gettng physical that you'd just know you couldnt push your luck with.

I dont know what the DOE has to do with this woman's case - but if the kids did this shit she should have dealt with it herself... it isnt okay, but they are just kids and she is the authority figure.

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biznatch

I agree with jewels. Respect, and how to get it from students, is something that one should learn when becoming a teacher.
Some teachers just won't take crap, and kids know not to fuck with them. Some teachers are complete pushovers, and expect the administration to do something they can't.

She totally could have put that kid back in her place, it's just a matter of asserting oneself.

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dippin

To Biznatch, Jewels, and SF: while I agree that teachers need to stand up for themselves, as I've said before things have changed substantially in American education.

Some of it for the better, as teachers and professors can't be dicks just because they feel like. But on the other hand, administrations have really removed a lot of power from the hands of teachers and professors. And when it comes to sexual matter, then teachers and professors are really rarely given the benefit of the doubt nowadays.

allaboutmusic

Many schools are less interested in protecting teachers than they are in keeping quiet about things that may bring the school into disrepute. Ultimately, much of the time, the kids know they have the power; the teachers can't do jack, and the kids can do what they like because the school won't support the teachers.

The same is as true here in the UK as it is in the US.

olla86

Obviously (or perhaps not) I don't think this teacher was asking for it. I don't know what she was wearing, but whatever it was there's no excuse for the department of education to turn a blind eye when students are harassing their teacher. Maybe some people disagree with me. Is this teacher being oversensitive about teaching pubescent boys? Do you think the teacher could be at all responsible for students harassing her? Is there a point at which the teacher might share responsibility? And what about recent stories of teacher-student sexual relationships? What kind of message does this send if the department of education is willing to allow students sexually harassing their teachers?[/quote]




I agree that in the greatest part of such cases is teacher's fault: provocative cloth, manners... Sometimes boys can't control own emotions...

Prince

The kids pull that shit because they know there's precious little the teachers are allowed to do about it. Any situation that arises between a child and a teacher, it's the teacher that gets the hairy end of the lollipop by default. When I was a kid, physical reprimand from a teacher was still a possibility. We respected that. But, over time, the "oh my god will someone think about the children" pussification army has seen to it that teachers have very limited authority to take action. Of course, parents are still happy to blame them for everything regardless. With that and the shitty pay it must be a really intense calling that makes a person want to become one.

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gondath

Neither teachers, nor anyone else should be forced to put up with sexual harassment of any level. Unless she is making up the events in question, good for her. I hope she gets paid for their failure to act.

If the little darlings would say that even to a teacher, what are they saying or doing to the other students? How far would they go if they knew they could get away with it? Doing nothing to correct their behavior sends a very bad message to young boys.