Lockerbie bomber sent home - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ShaniFaye · 08-20-2009, 09:12 AM

Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released - CNN.com

Quote:

GREENOCK, Scotland (CNN) -- The man convicted of murdering 270 people by blowing Pan Am flight 103 out of the sky above the Scottish town of Lockerbie two decades ago was on his way home to Libya on Thursday after authorities set him free.

Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi, 57, is suffering terminal prostate cancer and has three months to live. Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill ordered al Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds, saying he will be "going home to die."

"Our justice system demands that judgment be imposed but compassion available," MacAskill said. "Our beliefs dictate that justice be served but mercy be shown."

The White House, which has urged Britain to keep al Megrahi behind bars, said it "deeply regrets" the decision.

MacAskill said he accepted al Megrahi's 2001 conviction for the Lockerbie bombing, the worst terrorist atrocity ever committed on UK soil. He also said he supported a severe sentence. But he said al Megrahi's lack of compassion for his 270 victims should not be a reason for Scotland to deny compassion to him. Al Megrahi left prison Thursday, shortly after MacAskill's announcement and boarded a plane shortly afterwards.

Pan Am flight 103 exploded over the Scottish town of Lockerbie four days before Christmas in 1988, killing all 259 of those aboard the plane and 11 Scots on the ground.

Many of those on board the flight were Americans, and the U.S. government responded immediately to word of al Megrahi's release, saying it "deeply regrets" the decision.

"As we have expressed repeatedly to officials of the government of the United Kingdom and to Scottish authorities, we continue to believe that Megrahi should serve out his sentence in Scotland," the White House said in a statement.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton issued a similarly worded statement.

"Today, we remember those whose lives were lost on December 21, 1988, and we extend our deepest sympathies to the families who live each day with the loss of their loved ones due to this heinous crime," Clinton said.

The justice secretary said he decided not to transfer al Megrahi to a Libyan prison, even though a prisoner transfer agreement exists between the United Kingdom and Libya, but instead chose to set him free on compassionate grounds.

MacAskill said he believed the United States government and American families of the victims were led to expect before trial that whoever was convicted would serve out their entire sentence in Scotland.

"They did so on the basis of agreements they said had been made prior to trial regarding the place of imprisonment of anyone convicted," MacAskill said.

"The U.S. attorney general, Eric Holder, was in fact deputy attorney general to Janet Reno at the time of the pre-trial negotiations. He was adamant that assurances had been given to the U.S. government that any person convicted would serve his sentence in Scotland."

The United Kingdom declined to back up those claims, leading MacAskill to side with the American position, he said.

Families of the Lockerbie victims have been sharply divided whether al Megrahi should be ever be released.

Susan Cohen, who lost her 20-year-old daughter, was adamant about her position, calling al Megrahi a "mass murderer" and his release "appalling."

"Are we so devastatingly weak now, have we lost all our moral fiber that you can say that Megrahi can be released from prison for a compassionate release? Where was his compassion for my daughter? Where was his compassion for all those people?" Cohen told American Morning.

Bert Ammerman, whose brother died in the bombing, called al Megrahi's release "ludicrous."

"First of all, he got his compassionate release when he got life imprisonment and not capital punishment, which Scotland doesn't have," Ammerman told CNN. He should have remained in prison, then after his death, his body could have been returned to Libya, he said.

"Two, he's going to be going back, even if he has terminal cancer, as a hero and he's going to be received as a hero in Libya," Ammerman said.

"Three, let's cut through all this information. He's being released because big business in the United States, Great Britain want the oil in Libya, and that's what's driving this whole wagon," he added.

Al Megrahi was convicted in 2001 after the prosecution argued he had placed the bomb, hidden in a suitcase, on a flight from Malta to Frankfurt, Germany. There, prosecutors said, the bomb was transferred onto the Pan Am plane that went first to London's Heathrow Airport and then took off for New York.

Another man -- Al-Amin Khalifa Fahima -- was also tried in the bombing but was acquitted.

The prosecution maintained al Megrahi, who worked at Malta's Luqa Airport, was an agent for the Libyan intelligence services and had been seen buying clothes that were in the suitcase that contained the bomb.

Libya has formally accepted responsibility for the bombing and has compensated the families, though Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi later denied any culpability.

Al Megrahi was diagnosed in September 2008 with terminal prostate cancer, and medical officials have said his condition is rapidly deteriorating, MacAskill said. He said he declined an option to free al Megrahi and allow him to live in Scotland after senior police officers cited the severe security implications.
advertisement

"Scotland will forever remember the crime that has been perpetrated against our people and those from many other lands," MacAskill said. "The pain and suffering will remain forever. Some hurt can never heal. Some scars can never fade."

He added, "However, Mr. al Megrahi now faces a sentence imposed by a higher power. It is one that no court, in any jurisdiction, in any land, could revoke or overrule. It is terminal, final and irrevocable. He is going to die."

This makes me more angry than I can properly communicate.

This man who ruined countless hundreds of lives is going home to die with his family, he has been let out because of compassion he never had.

I'd so love to find out his plane didnt make it home *** because this has been quoted I'm not going to delete it, but I will just say that I said it all wrong out of anger. No MORE innocent people should die because of this man.

Baraka_Guru · 08-20-2009, 09:19 AM

By the sound of his condition, he's going home in a prison (his body in its current state), and it's preparing to execute him, possibly quite painfully. I'm actually quite impressed at this display of compassion. I'm not sure I've heard of this sort of thing before.

Dishing out retribution comes easy; compassion takes courage. I'm interested in reading the commentary on this worldwide.

dlish · 08-20-2009, 09:31 AM

word here is that there's got to be some sort of favourable outcome that scotland is expecting out of this. with libya having the larget oil reserves in africa....

if the dudes already half dead, and libya's already paid 2.7Bn in compensation, i think its quite a good deal for the scots.

on the other hand, i too would be outraged if i was a family member of one of the victims. i'd be even more upset that the scots were looking to profit from this

Daniel_ · 08-20-2009, 10:04 AM

It's interesting listening to interviews this week on the BBC with American and Scots family members.

The Americans generally think he is evil and should die in a cell

The Scots generally think he was involved in a larger plot, without nececerrily knowing what he was part of, and that the real murderous culprits got away.

The media coverage in the UK has reflected on the fact that he was convicted after being picked out by a man who originally said he'd seen an old, tall man, when he was young and short. Even if the witness was right, all that proves is that he bought a shirt that ended up TWO FLIGHTS LATER in the hold of the Pan Am flight.

There was no evidence produced that he ever put anything on the plane or it's feeder himself.

The prevailing attitude in the UK is that he deserves Christian compassion, and the dignity in death that his plot denied its victims.

The prevailing attitude in the US seems to be (based on UK news reports) that he deserves a horrible painful death with no chance to see his family or visit his homeland.

In general I think this shows that as countries we are more different than many of us like to admit.

My own view is that he is going to die in pain, and he might as well go home to do it; Baraka said it more eloquently than I can.

SecretMethod70 · 08-20-2009, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

This man who ruined countless hundreds of lives is going home to die with his family, he has been let out because of compassion he never had.

I'd so love to find out his plane didnt make it home

You know, when I heard this might happen, they interviewed two people who were related to a victim. One made the argument you just made. I didn't understand it then, and I don't understand it now. Are we so lacking in self-awareness that we allow ourselves to sink to the same levels as our criminals without even realizing the irony? No, bombing that plane did not involve any compassion, but I'll be damned if I'm going to lose my compassion just because someone else has. When you focus on revenge rather than societal safety as a reason for locking someone up, you're no better than they are.

Of course, the other family member they interviewed supported this release, not just because of the compassionate grounds on which it occurred, but also because of the doubts which exist regarding the man's guilt. I admit to not knowing much about the case against him, but from what I understand the case against him was flimsy in the first place, with most evidence pointing to Syria not Libya. The bomb was allegedly planted by Maghir in Malta, where it then miraculously would have survived two changeovers. More likely, the bomb was planted in the UK, where there was a break in at Heathrow Airport (which was evidence suppressed at trial). Now, he's still moving through the appeals process and has been having some success recently as more and more suppressed evidence is coming to light. It's worth noting that public opinion in Scotland, where they've been getting a lot more info about this than we have, is on the side of Maghir. Letting him go avoids the possibility that he will be successful in his appeal and force a new and expensive investigation along with the embarrassment of locking up the wrong man.

Daniel_: I agree with your observations. In fact, it was only when listening to BBC World News that I got the additional information about his potential innocence.

dlish · 08-20-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

I'd so love to find out his plane didnt make it home

i didnt pay much attention to this quote till smeth re-quoted it.

would you be so happy that innocent people other than a terminally ill convict on that plane die? sorry but this is short sighted, that you'd accept the death of innocents for your own retribution.

there is no justification for such thought in the same way that wishing death to america has no justification.

ShaniFaye · 08-20-2009, 10:27 AM

Then I will take the stance I'm no better than "them". I will never understand getting a "get out of jail free card" when you've been convicted for life because you're going to die. Everyone that goes to prison is going to die. He was not let out because he was found innocent, and for the people that dont see this as a political move plain and simple, we will just have to agree to disagree.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

i didnt pay much attention to this quote till smeth re-quoted it.

would you be so happy that innocent people other than a terminally ill convict on that plane die? sorry but this is short sighted, that you'd accept the death of innocents for your own retribution.

there is no justification for such thought in the same way that wishing death to america has no justification.

you're right about, no I dont wish ill will on innocents, I said that all wrong, I'm angry at how this has played out.

SecretMethod70 · 08-20-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

He was not let out because he was found innocent

Yet. The appeals process seems to have been moving in that direction. One reason people are more supportive of this in the UK than in the US is because they've heard more about the suppressed evidence that has come to light. If that evidence had been allowed in trial he almost certainly would have been found not guilty. Instead, they were faced with a tragedy and an outraged public and needed someone to punish sooner rather than later. This guy seemed reasonably shady enough that they were able to justify it to themselves as they denied him the ability to fully defend himself.

mrklixx · 08-20-2009, 10:40 AM

What if Allah suddenly heals his good and faithful servant (does Allah even "do" healing)? Does that mean that he is still free to go about his merry way?

dlish · 08-20-2009, 11:45 AM

Mr Klixx - Your question is drenched in sarcasm and ill-humour.

Please feel free to contribute to this thread if you think you can add value to it. if you re-phrase your question, it may actually be a valid one and myself as well as other may actually attempt to answer it.

Daniel_ · 08-20-2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx

What if Allah suddenly heals his good and faithful servant (does Allah even "do" healing)? Does that mean that he is still free to go about his merry way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

Mr Klixx - Your question is drenched in sarcasm and ill-humour.

Please feel free to contribute to this thread if you think you can add value to it. if you re-phrase your question, it may actually be a valid one and myself as well as other may actually attempt to answer it.

I will assume that MrK was asking a genuine question, rather than a sarcastic dig, and say that as far as I know, because he was let out rather than pardoned, if he was found to have been miraculously healed, he would have to serve out the remainder of the sentence.

mrklixx · 08-20-2009, 01:28 PM

So Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi did not believe he was doing the will of Allah? And if he was miraculously healed would he be likely to give the credit to Jesus or Buddha?

Honestly.

TFP contains some of the most sarcastic people on this fine blue planet, and that post gets me a parade and a chocolate milkshake

Unreal.

Daniel_ · 08-20-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx

So Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi did not believe he was doing the will of Allah? And if he was miraculously healed would he be likely to give the credit to Jesus or Buddha?

Honestly.

TFP contains some of the most sarcastic people on this fine blue planet, and that post gets me reprimanded.

Unreal.

Assuming that he actually did it (which has been talked about above) I have NEVER seen anyone claim that he did it as an act of faith in Allah.

This happened nearly 20 years before the stock answer was "muslin extremists". If al-Megrahi was part of the Libyan plot then he did what he did on the orders of his government, not on the orders of his imam.

yournamehere · 08-20-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx

What if Allah suddenly heals his good and faithful servant (does Allah even "do" healing)? Does that mean that he is still free to go about his merry way?

I think that's a very legitimate question for a discussion board.

Who knows for sure he only has 3 months to live? Prostate Cancer is one of the slowest to kill its victims. That's why it is rarely treated aggressively in the elderly - something else usually kills them first. And many cancer patients go into remissions that can't be explained by their doctor. That being said, I'm sure it's metastasized to every organ in his body by now if they're sure enough to let him out of prison.

In any case, now that he's landed in Libya, his fate will never be truly known. Sure - there will be a press release soon saying he died, but will it ever be beyond doubt? Hell - I don't even believe Kenny Boy Lay is really dead.

Even if the comment was dripping with sarcasm, it's hardly the first one in all these years of TFP. Which part of it did you find so offensive, dlish??

hunnychile · 08-20-2009, 03:00 PM

Ah yes...it's all about the secret delas and the oil.

dlish · 08-20-2009, 03:47 PM

Mrklixx, if you were being officially reprimanded, trust me you'd know it.

That, and the yellow tags that accompany the official warnings would be a good indicator. so dont get you're knickers in a knot over my distaste in your humour. sure, i thought it sucked, but im entitled to that right.

like i said, you're question had merit, but if it worded the right way, we wouldnt be having this conversation. that is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx
What if Allah suddenly heals his good and faithful servant (does Allah even "do" healing)? Does that mean that he is still free to go about his merry way?

what didnt i like about the post?

this case has been going on for how long now? and to date, there been not one shred of evidence to prove that this act of terror was done in the name of religion.

it just so happens to be that this guy is Libyan, and going by his name, a muslim. Heck, i dont see christianity dragged into the scene because Hitler was a christian.

so to answer your question, no he wasnt doing it for the will of Allah. maybe the will of his superiors, his country, maybe he's mental, maybe he's not muslim, maybe he's a secular muslim, maybe he's innocent! it could be anything. but lets not drag religion into it and create a smokescreen when it doesnt belong. im happy to debate religion elsewhere.

MSD · 08-20-2009, 03:52 PM

We're showing compassion to even the most heinous of criminals. Just like I feel we would do if we abolished the death penalty, it shows we're better than them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx

TFP contains some of the most sarcastic people on this fine blue planet, and that post gets me reprimanded.

Unreal.

I think that was more of a statement of offense he took as a Muslim than a reprimand. I say this as one of the most sarcastic and irreverent people around.

G5_Todd · 08-20-2009, 05:27 PM

atleast everyone can take comfort in the fact that this guy is about to burn in hell for his sins, for eternity...

mrklixx · 08-20-2009, 09:16 PM

Dlish, I'm sorry that you chose to be offended by my post. I never said he was guilty of anything.

As for the rest

Quote:

'Take care of yourself, don't worry about me'
The Herald (Scotland)
15/03/2002

ROB CRILLY: Exclusive
IT was his last daily phone call in a year-long sequence. Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi told his mother in Tripoli from Camp Zeist: "Take care of yourself, don't worry about me."

The stoic acceptance of his fate emerged when he spoke to his mother, Fatima, 79, before being sent to jail. His brother, Mohamed Ali, told The Herald yesterday: "He is very good. He is believing in Allah, he is trusting in Allah. He accepted the decision like a brave man, even though he knows he is innocent."

Friends and relatives crowded outside the low white-washed walls of the Megrahi family home in a narrow lane in the south of Tripoli, after learning their youngest son was going to prison for a very long time. Elsewhere, the city simmered gently in the early summer sun.

Mohamed smiled defiantly as he explained that his brother had taken the news as a good Muslim. "This is a wish from Allah and we believe in Allah and everything comes by rotation and tide".....

powerclown · 08-20-2009, 11:57 PM

Place him in a giant blender and make 'Insane Bomber Pate' out of him.

highthief · 08-21-2009, 02:32 AM

You know, I was on the fence about whether he should be released or not. On the one hand, he was convicted under the law. On the other, there seem to be a lot of doubts about the conviction and by the time any appeal process was finished, the guy might be dead - and if he was innnocent, then that process would have done him little good.

But then I read the usual vitriol from the usual suspects about how "he should burn in hell", how his "plane back to Libya should explode", how he should be made into "pate" and how Islam must "somehow" be behind the attack and it becomes easier to see the validity in letting the guy go.

It may be irrational, but I can't see myself lining up beside people who make comments like those above.

Strange Famous · 08-21-2009, 02:41 AM

He was convicted of the crime. I think it is impossible that he acted alone - but given that he was convicted of the murder of over 300 people I think a whole life tarrif would have been appropriate... even through he is dying now.

Flinx · 08-21-2009, 03:39 AM

One thing bothers me about this release. IF HE WAS GUILTY and only has 3 months to live whats to stop him from committing another bombing? Like whats he got to lose maybe a month or a few weeks by the time he has everything lined up to commit another act of terrorism?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

By the sound of his condition, he's going home in a prison (his body in its current state), and it's preparing to execute him, possibly quite painfully. I'm actually quite impressed at this display of compassion. I'm not sure I've heard of this sort of thing before.

Dishing out retribution comes easy; compassion takes courage. I'm interested in reading the commentary on this worldwide.

Dying or not you just don't release terrorists except in a pine box. Since he was released this puts me in the the camp of "They knew he was innocent" and decided he made a good scapegoat. So what if a convicted terrorist is dying, big deal, let him/her rot someplace where the public is safe. Terrorist bombers expect to die, already dieing just makes it easier I'd imagine. It's not a act of compassion to let one free, it's a act of extreme stupidity.

The_Jazz · 08-21-2009, 06:43 AM

For the record, there were no official reprimands involving anything in this thread. Staff is allowed to state their opinions and challenge other opinions, just like any other member. Implying that official action has been taken when it hasn't is really just poor form.

And that this is in my "official" voice should hopefully put an end to this nonsense.

dlish · 08-21-2009, 07:13 AM

mrklixx, the article your quoting from is dated to 2002. the bombing occurred in 1988, 14 years earlier. There would have been ample time for abdelbaset to turn to religion in jail in those 14 years. you will find that his brother is quoted and not abdelbaset himself.

what your news article doesnt mention is whether the intention at the time that he carried out the bombing was a religious one. i am yet to find a single comment where he has admitted that he did it for Allah. in fact, he has denied the charges all along and has only dropped the appeal because he's being released on compassionate grounds.

if he did carry out the acts for Allah, and had been sentenced to life, a true devout muslim terrorist would believe that if he died in jail under the incarceration of the infidels, then he would be made a martyr. there is a classic quote from Ibn Taymiyyah, a muslim scholar who was incarcerated in the 13th century who is widely known throughout the muslim world who made the following quote from his cell.

Quote:

“What can my enemies possibly do to me? My paradise is in my heart; wherever I go it goes with me, inseparable from me. For me, prison is a place of (religious) retreat; exocution is my opportunity for martyrdom; and exile from my town is but a chance to travel.”

if abdelbaset is such a good and faithful servant, would it not be better for him to stay in jail and gain the martyrdom that religious terrorists yearn for? if he's on his deathbed, why jeorpodise paradise and all the virgins for 3 months with his family?

sorry, i dont buy your argument. He may well be a muslim, but his actions were the actions of a nationalistic secular muslim under the instructions of his superiors.

Glory's Sun · 08-21-2009, 10:00 AM

I'm still on the fence about this whole thing..

however, I think given that he hasn't been found "innocent" yet.. the reaction he received was shallow on Libya's part.

BBC NEWS | Africa | In pictures: Lockerbie bomber free

Plan9 · 08-21-2009, 10:18 AM

Hey, maybe they'll give him a travel size boombox as a parting gift.

...

Me? I love how expensive "compassion" is... how ridiculous it is to lock away a man for the "rest of his life" only to let him out because he's gonna die soon.

It would have been cheaper and more humane to put a rifle round in the guy's forehead 20 years ago.

I'm sure everybody gained a whole lot from keeping this individual in a box for what amounts to my time here on Earth.

Strange Famous · 08-21-2009, 10:33 AM

What else can they do but lock him away?

He is a grave threat to international security and to the lives of innocent people. Also, I presume most people feel that killing over 200 people deserves to be punished.

His sentence was to die in prison... his impending death gives me no joy or celebration, but I also believe that sentence should be served.

To see him being treated as a hero in Libya is especially disgusting.

LoganSnake · 08-21-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G5_Todd

atleast everyone can take comfort in the fact that this guy is about to burn in hell for his sins, for eternity...

You mean those who believe in concepts of heaven and hell.

For the rest of us, he's just going to live the remainder of his days in the comfort of his home.

Baraka_Guru · 08-21-2009, 11:04 AM

I don't see how dying cancer patients are a grave threat to anyone. I've seen it before, and what it tells me is that it doesn't quite matter where you are in the days before the disease claims you—you aren't going anywhere.

And wouldn't it have cost more to care for him in prison rather than send him to his family?

percy · 08-21-2009, 01:03 PM

There was a documentary on this last night in Canada on the CBC's Passionate Eye. Very interesting story involving Scotland Yard, the FBI, the CIA,..conspiracy theories, cover ups, people being bought off etc,etc. Certainly not a simple operation.

Not quite sure how I feel about his release. One part of me says sometimes it is time to move on, what is done is done. Many people in history have done more heinous crimes and received a lot less punishment. But the other side is the unknown since I am not directly involved as being related or close to the victim's, so that is the difference. I would probably feel differently maybe.

May be able to find this on YouTube or a rebroadcast (edit- it is on Youtube)

Conspiracy Files: Lockerbie - Passionate Eye Monday | CBC Newsworld

Sorry, forgot to add You tube link;

YouTube - The Conspiracy Files - Lockerbie Part 1

Daniel_ · 08-21-2009, 02:17 PM

It was just pointed out to me by my wife that maybe the celebration wasn't just because he'd come home, but also because it was the begining of Ramadan.

The calmness today seems to indicate that the state has opted not to make such a big deal of it all once they got the letters from the US and UK governments.

I thought that Alex Salmond's interview on the BBC was good this morning. BBC NEWS | UK | Salmond defends Megrahi decision

mrklixx · 08-21-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

sorry, i dont buy your argument.

Actually I think you are doing enough arguing for the both of us, because you are certainly upset about things I never said.

Along with Dlish's irateness, my post(s) have been called "outrageous" behind the scenes.

So was it outrageous?

Without jumping to conclusions, making asuumptions, or being an internet psychic, the only 3 thing that can be gleaned from my post(s) are :

1) al Megrahi is currently a Muslim. (proved by article)

2) For however long he has been a Muslim, he belives his every action has been the Will of Allah (pretty much by definition).

3) If he were to be miraculously healed, he would probably (again, by definition) give the credit to Allah.

End of story.

P.S. I sincerely apologize that my poor choice of words has made more work for The_Jazz. I have edited the post that is causing him grief. I will also freely admit that his penis is probably larger than mine.

dlish · 08-21-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx

Without jumping to conclusions, making asuumptions, or being an internet psychic, the only 3 thing that can be gleaned from my post(s) are :

1) al Megrahi is currently a Muslim. (proved by article)

2) For however long he has been a Muslim, he belives his every action has been the Will of Allah (pretty much by definition).

3) If he were to be miraculously healed, he would probably (again, by definition) give the credit to Allah.

again i digress. you imply things and when i ask you to provide me with something you give short veiled responses without providing that information. im by no means irritated. i'm trying to engage in a discussion where you keep moving the goal posts.

for the record the article is quoting his brother Mohammed Ali and not Abdelbaset himself.

1) agreed.

2) agreed, by definition any and every action is by Allahs' decree. but you failed to tell me the intention he had in which he did the bombings. your first post refers to him as a good and faithful servant. if you know anything about the concept of Decree and Predetermination under islamic law, which are vast subjects in islamic theology, you will know that though someone might do an action, though it's gods Will, it doesnt mean that god neccesarily condones it, nor does it mean that the person will get blessings for it, even if it is in His name (like this bombing for example). Murder is considered one of the biggest sins in Islam. Under the classical definition, to murder one person is to have murdered all of humanity, and you will be held accountable for it.

so yes, he will be held accountable for killing 270 people. so much for

3) if he was healed he'd give credit to Allah the same way that he should give credit to Allah because he's got cancer. doesnt make him the faithful servant that you want him to be.

Again i ask that you prove that his intentions for the bombing was based on a religious justification.

on a side note, this is getting off topic,I'm happy to carry this on in another thread in Philosphy or Politics.

Charlatan · 08-21-2009, 04:06 PM

It's also interesting to note that Ramadan is a period of self-reflection and forgiveness.

Tully Mars · 08-21-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It's also interesting to note that Ramadan is a period of self-reflection and forgiveness.

Interesting point.

mrklixx · 08-21-2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

Again i ask that you prove that his intentions for the bombing was based on a religious justification.

Therin lies the rub. Did I say he had intentions of anything? Did I say he was guilty of anything?

dlish · 08-21-2009, 04:52 PM

ill quote your two quotes

Quote:

What if Allah suddenly heals his good and faithful servant

So Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi did not believe he was doing the will of Allah?

this is what we're discussing in the last few posts, the "good and faithful servant" and the "Will of Allah".

if you're now saying that you didnt say he's guilty of anything and you didnt say he had any intentions, then theres no use discussing anything anymore is there?

mrklixx · 08-21-2009, 05:49 PM

I just can't believe you don't see the irony.

dlish · 08-22-2009, 12:44 AM

..back to the topic

it seems that the libyans are saying that his release was tied to commercial agreements whilst the british are vehemently denying this

Quote:

'No deal'
Britain's Sky News reported that Gadhafi's son told Libyan TV that al-Megrahi's release was linked to trade deals with Britain.

"In all commercial contracts, for oil and gas with Britain, (al-Megrahi) was always on the negotiating table," Seif al-Islam told channel Al Mutawassit.

However, officials with Britain's Foreign Office told Sky News that there had been "no deal."

Bomber?s release stirs diplomatic row - Terrorism- msnbc.com

08-20-2009, 09:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	By the sound of his condition, he's going home in a prison (his body in its current state), and it's preparing to execute him, possibly quite painfully. I'm actually quite impressed at this display of compassion. I'm not sure I've heard of this sort of thing before. Dishing out retribution comes easy; compassion takes courage. I'm interested in reading the commentary on this worldwide. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-20-2009, 09:31 AM	#3 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	word here is that there's got to be some sort of favourable outcome that scotland is expecting out of this. with libya having the larget oil reserves in africa.... if the dudes already half dead, and libya's already paid 2.7Bn in compensation, i think its quite a good deal for the scots. on the other hand, i too would be outraged if i was a family member of one of the victims. i'd be even more upset that the scots were looking to profit from this __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy Last edited by dlish; 08-20-2009 at 10:09 AM..

08-20-2009, 10:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	It's interesting listening to interviews this week on the BBC with American and Scots family members. The Americans generally think he is evil and should die in a cell The Scots generally think he was involved in a larger plot, without nececerrily knowing what he was part of, and that the real murderous culprits got away. The media coverage in the UK has reflected on the fact that he was convicted after being picked out by a man who originally said he'd seen an old, tall man, when he was young and short. Even if the witness was right, all that proves is that he bought a shirt that ended up TWO FLIGHTS LATER in the hold of the Pan Am flight. There was no evidence produced that he ever put anything on the plane or it's feeder himself. The prevailing attitude in the UK is that he deserves Christian compassion, and the dignity in death that his plot denied its victims. The prevailing attitude in the US seems to be (based on UK news reports) that he deserves a horrible painful death with no chance to see his family or visit his homeland. In general I think this shows that as countries we are more different than many of us like to admit. My own view is that he is going to die in pain, and he might as well go home to do it; Baraka said it more eloquently than I can. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

08-20-2009, 10:40 AM	#9 (permalink)
mrklixx President Rick Location: location location	What if Allah suddenly heals his good and faithful servant (does Allah even "do" healing)? Does that mean that he is still free to go about his merry way? __________________ This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars.

08-20-2009, 11:45 AM	#10 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	Mr Klixx - Your question is drenched in sarcasm and ill-humour. Please feel free to contribute to this thread if you think you can add value to it. if you re-phrase your question, it may actually be a valid one and myself as well as other may actually attempt to answer it. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

08-20-2009, 01:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
mrklixx President Rick Location: location location	So Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi did not believe he was doing the will of Allah? And if he was miraculously healed would he be likely to give the credit to Jesus or Buddha? Honestly. TFP contains some of the most sarcastic people on this fine blue planet, and that post gets me a parade and a chocolate milkshake Unreal. __________________ This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars. Last edited by mrklixx; 08-21-2009 at 02:57 PM.. Reason: poor choice of words

08-20-2009, 03:00 PM	#15 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	Ah yes...it's all about the secret delas and the oil. __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

08-20-2009, 05:27 PM	#18 (permalink)
G5_Todd Junkie Location: Reichstag	atleast everyone can take comfort in the fact that this guy is about to burn in hell for his sins, for eternity... __________________ "....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." -General Franks

08-20-2009, 11:57 PM	#20 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Place him in a giant blender and make 'Insane Bomber Pate' out of him.

08-21-2009, 02:32 AM	#21 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	You know, I was on the fence about whether he should be released or not. On the one hand, he was convicted under the law. On the other, there seem to be a lot of doubts about the conviction and by the time any appeal process was finished, the guy might be dead - and if he was innnocent, then that process would have done him little good. But then I read the usual vitriol from the usual suspects about how "he should burn in hell", how his "plane back to Libya should explode", how he should be made into "pate" and how Islam must "somehow" be behind the attack and it becomes easier to see the validity in letting the guy go. It may be irrational, but I can't see myself lining up beside people who make comments like those above. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

08-21-2009, 02:41 AM	#22 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	He was convicted of the crime. I think it is impossible that he acted alone - but given that he was convicted of the murder of over 300 people I think a whole life tarrif would have been appropriate... even through he is dying now. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-21-2009, 06:43 AM	#24 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	For the record, there were no official reprimands involving anything in this thread. Staff is allowed to state their opinions and challenge other opinions, just like any other member. Implying that official action has been taken when it hasn't is really just poor form. And that this is in my "official" voice should hopefully put an end to this nonsense. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-21-2009, 10:00 AM	#26 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I'm still on the fence about this whole thing.. however, I think given that he hasn't been found "innocent" yet.. the reaction he received was shallow on Libya's part. BBC NEWS \| Africa \| In pictures: Lockerbie bomber free

08-21-2009, 10:18 AM	#27 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hey, maybe they'll give him a travel size boombox as a parting gift. ... Me? I love how expensive "compassion" is... how ridiculous it is to lock away a man for the "rest of his life" only to let him out because he's gonna die soon. It would have been cheaper and more humane to put a rifle round in the guy's forehead 20 years ago. I'm sure everybody gained a whole lot from keeping this individual in a box for what amounts to my time here on Earth. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 08-21-2009 at 10:21 AM..

08-21-2009, 10:33 AM	#28 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	What else can they do but lock him away? He is a grave threat to international security and to the lives of innocent people. Also, I presume most people feel that killing over 200 people deserves to be punished. His sentence was to die in prison... his impending death gives me no joy or celebration, but I also believe that sentence should be served. To see him being treated as a hero in Libya is especially disgusting. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-21-2009, 11:04 AM	#30 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I don't see how dying cancer patients are a grave threat to anyone. I've seen it before, and what it tells me is that it doesn't quite matter where you are in the days before the disease claims you—you aren't going anywhere. And wouldn't it have cost more to care for him in prison rather than send him to his family? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 08-21-2009 at 11:08 AM..

08-21-2009, 02:17 PM	#32 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	It was just pointed out to me by my wife that maybe the celebration wasn't just because he'd come home, but also because it was the begining of Ramadan. The calmness today seems to indicate that the state has opted not to make such a big deal of it all once they got the letters from the US and UK governments. I thought that Alex Salmond's interview on the BBC was good this morning. BBC NEWS \| UK \| Salmond defends Megrahi decision __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

08-21-2009, 04:06 PM	#35 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	It's also interesting to note that Ramadan is a period of self-reflection and forgiveness. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-21-2009, 05:49 PM	#39 (permalink)
mrklixx President Rick Location: location location	I just can't believe you don't see the irony. __________________ This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars.