Lockerbie bomber sent home
 

Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released - CNN.com

This makes me more angry than I can properly communicate.

This man who ruined countless hundreds of lives is going home to die with his family, he has been let out because of compassion he never had.

I'd so love to find out his plane didnt make it home *** because this has been quoted I'm not going to delete it, but I will just say that I said it all wrong out of anger. No MORE innocent people should die because of this man.

By the sound of his condition, he's going home in a prison (his body in its current state), and it's preparing to execute him, possibly quite painfully. I'm actually quite impressed at this display of compassion. I'm not sure I've heard of this sort of thing before.

Dishing out retribution comes easy; compassion takes courage. I'm interested in reading the commentary on this worldwide.

word here is that there's got to be some sort of favourable outcome that scotland is expecting out of this. with libya having the larget oil reserves in africa....

if the dudes already half dead, and libya's already paid 2.7Bn in compensation, i think its quite a good deal for the scots.

on the other hand, i too would be outraged if i was a family member of one of the victims. i'd be even more upset that the scots were looking to profit from this

It's interesting listening to interviews this week on the BBC with American and Scots family members.

The Americans generally think he is evil and should die in a cell

The Scots generally think he was involved in a larger plot, without nececerrily knowing what he was part of, and that the real murderous culprits got away.

The media coverage in the UK has reflected on the fact that he was convicted after being picked out by a man who originally said he'd seen an old, tall man, when he was young and short. Even if the witness was right, all that proves is that he bought a shirt that ended up TWO FLIGHTS LATER in the hold of the Pan Am flight.

There was no evidence produced that he ever put anything on the plane or it's feeder himself.

The prevailing attitude in the UK is that he deserves Christian compassion, and the dignity in death that his plot denied its victims.

The prevailing attitude in the US seems to be (based on UK news reports) that he deserves a horrible painful death with no chance to see his family or visit his homeland.

In general I think this shows that as countries we are more different than many of us like to admit.

My own view is that he is going to die in pain, and he might as well go home to do it; Baraka said it more eloquently than I can.

You know, when I heard this might happen, they interviewed two people who were related to a victim. One made the argument you just made. I didn't understand it then, and I don't understand it now. Are we so lacking in self-awareness that we allow ourselves to sink to the same levels as our criminals without even realizing the irony? No, bombing that plane did not involve any compassion, but I'll be damned if I'm going to lose my compassion just because someone else has. When you focus on revenge rather than societal safety as a reason for locking someone up, you're no better than they are.

Of course, the other family member they interviewed supported this release, not just because of the compassionate grounds on which it occurred, but also because of the doubts which exist regarding the man's guilt. I admit to not knowing much about the case against him, but from what I understand the case against him was flimsy in the first place, with most evidence pointing to Syria not Libya. The bomb was allegedly planted by Maghir in Malta, where it then miraculously would have survived two changeovers. More likely, the bomb was planted in the UK, where there was a break in at Heathrow Airport (which was evidence suppressed at trial). Now, he's still moving through the appeals process and has been having some success recently as more and more suppressed evidence is coming to light. It's worth noting that public opinion in Scotland, where they've been getting a lot more info about this than we have, is on the side of Maghir. Letting him go avoids the possibility that he will be successful in his appeal and force a new and expensive investigation along with the embarrassment of locking up the wrong man.

Daniel_: I agree with your observations. In fact, it was only when listening to BBC World News that I got the additional information about his potential innocence.

i didnt pay much attention to this quote till smeth re-quoted it.

would you be so happy that innocent people other than a terminally ill convict on that plane die? sorry but this is short sighted, that you'd accept the death of innocents for your own retribution.


there is no justification for such thought in the same way that wishing death to america has no justification.

Then I will take the stance I'm no better than "them". I will never understand getting a "get out of jail free card" when you've been convicted for life because you're going to die. Everyone that goes to prison is going to die. He was not let out because he was found innocent, and for the people that dont see this as a political move plain and simple, we will just have to agree to disagree.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

you're right about, no I dont wish ill will on innocents, I said that all wrong, I'm angry at how this has played out.

Yet. The appeals process seems to have been moving in that direction. One reason people are more supportive of this in the UK than in the US is because they've heard more about the suppressed evidence that has come to light. If that evidence had been allowed in trial he almost certainly would have been found not guilty. Instead, they were faced with a tragedy and an outraged public and needed someone to punish sooner rather than later. This guy seemed reasonably shady enough that they were able to justify it to themselves as they denied him the ability to fully defend himself.

What if Allah suddenly heals his good and faithful servant (does Allah even "do" healing)? Does that mean that he is still free to go about his merry way?

Mr Klixx - Your question is drenched in sarcasm and ill-humour.

Please feel free to contribute to this thread if you think you can add value to it. if you re-phrase your question, it may actually be a valid one and myself as well as other may actually attempt to answer it.

I will assume that MrK was asking a genuine question, rather than a sarcastic dig, and say that as far as I know, because he was let out rather than pardoned, if he was found to have been miraculously healed, he would have to serve out the remainder of the sentence.

So Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi did not believe he was doing the will of Allah? And if he was miraculously healed would he be likely to give the credit to Jesus or Buddha?

Honestly.

TFP contains some of the most sarcastic people on this fine blue planet, and that post gets me a parade and a chocolate milkshake

Unreal.

Assuming that he actually did it (which has been talked about above) I have NEVER seen anyone claim that he did it as an act of faith in Allah.

This happened nearly 20 years before the stock answer was "muslin extremists". If al-Megrahi was part of the Libyan plot then he did what he did on the orders of his government, not on the orders of his imam.

I think that's a very legitimate question for a discussion board.

Who knows for sure he only has 3 months to live? Prostate Cancer is one of the slowest to kill its victims. That's why it is rarely treated aggressively in the elderly - something else usually kills them first. And many cancer patients go into remissions that can't be explained by their doctor. That being said, I'm sure it's metastasized to every organ in his body by now if they're sure enough to let him out of prison.

In any case, now that he's landed in Libya, his fate will never be truly known. Sure - there will be a press release soon saying he died, but will it ever be beyond doubt? Hell - I don't even believe Kenny Boy Lay is really dead.

Even if the comment was dripping with sarcasm, it's hardly the first one in all these years of TFP. Which part of it did you find so offensive, dlish??

Ah yes...it's all about the secret delas and the oil.

Mrklixx, if you were being officially reprimanded, trust me you'd know it.

That, and the yellow tags that accompany the official warnings would be a good indicator. so dont get you're knickers in a knot over my distaste in your humour. sure, i thought it sucked, but im entitled to that right.

like i said, you're question had merit, but if it worded the right way, we wouldnt be having this conversation. that is all.

what didnt i like about the post?

this case has been going on for how long now? and to date, there been not one shred of evidence to prove that this act of terror was done in the name of religion.

it just so happens to be that this guy is Libyan, and going by his name, a muslim. Heck, i dont see christianity dragged into the scene because Hitler was a christian.

so to answer your question, no he wasnt doing it for the will of Allah. maybe the will of his superiors, his country, maybe he's mental, maybe he's not muslim, maybe he's a secular muslim, maybe he's innocent! it could be anything. but lets not drag religion into it and create a smokescreen when it doesnt belong. im happy to debate religion elsewhere.

We're showing compassion to even the most heinous of criminals. Just like I feel we would do if we abolished the death penalty, it shows we're better than them.
I think that was more of a statement of offense he took as a Muslim than a reprimand. I say this as one of the most sarcastic and irreverent people around.

atleast everyone can take comfort in the fact that this guy is about to burn in hell for his sins, for eternity...

Dlish, I'm sorry that you chose to be offended by my post. I never said he was guilty of anything.

As for the rest

Place him in a giant blender and make 'Insane Bomber Pate' out of him.

You know, I was on the fence about whether he should be released or not. On the one hand, he was convicted under the law. On the other, there seem to be a lot of doubts about the conviction and by the time any appeal process was finished, the guy might be dead - and if he was innnocent, then that process would have done him little good.

But then I read the usual vitriol from the usual suspects about how "he should burn in hell", how his "plane back to Libya should explode", how he should be made into "pate" and how Islam must "somehow" be behind the attack and it becomes easier to see the validity in letting the guy go.

It may be irrational, but I can't see myself lining up beside people who make comments like those above.

He was convicted of the crime. I think it is impossible that he acted alone - but given that he was convicted of the murder of over 300 people I think a whole life tarrif would have been appropriate... even through he is dying now.

One thing bothers me about this release. IF HE WAS GUILTY and only has 3 months to live whats to stop him from committing another bombing? Like whats he got to lose maybe a month or a few weeks by the time he has everything lined up to commit another act of terrorism?

Dying or not you just don't release terrorists except in a pine box. Since he was released this puts me in the the camp of "They knew he was innocent" and decided he made a good scapegoat. So what if a convicted terrorist is dying, big deal, let him/her rot someplace where the public is safe. Terrorist bombers expect to die, already dieing just makes it easier I'd imagine. It's not a act of compassion to let one free, it's a act of extreme stupidity.

mrklixx, the article your quoting from is dated to 2002. the bombing occurred in 1988, 14 years earlier. There would have been ample time for abdelbaset to turn to religion in jail in those 14 years. you will find that his brother is quoted and not abdelbaset himself.

what your news article doesnt mention is whether the intention at the time that he carried out the bombing was a religious one. i am yet to find a single comment where he has admitted that he did it for Allah. in fact, he has denied the charges all along and has only dropped the appeal because he's being released on compassionate grounds.

if he did carry out the acts for Allah, and had been sentenced to life, a true devout muslim terrorist would believe that if he died in jail under the incarceration of the infidels, then he would be made a martyr. there is a classic quote from Ibn Taymiyyah, a muslim scholar who was incarcerated in the 13th century who is widely known throughout the muslim world who made the following quote from his cell.

if abdelbaset is such a good and faithful servant, would it not be better for him to stay in jail and gain the martyrdom that religious terrorists yearn for? if he's on his deathbed, why jeorpodise paradise and all the virgins for 3 months with his family?

sorry, i dont buy your argument. He may well be a muslim, but his actions were the actions of a nationalistic secular muslim under the instructions of his superiors.

I'm still on the fence about this whole thing..

however, I think given that he hasn't been found "innocent" yet.. the reaction he received was shallow on Libya's part.

BBC NEWS | Africa | In pictures: Lockerbie bomber free

Hey, maybe they'll give him a travel size boombox as a parting gift.

...

Me? I love how expensive "compassion" is... how ridiculous it is to lock away a man for the "rest of his life" only to let him out because he's gonna die soon.

It would have been cheaper and more humane to put a rifle round in the guy's forehead 20 years ago.

I'm sure everybody gained a whole lot from keeping this individual in a box for what amounts to my time here on Earth.

What else can they do but lock him away?

He is a grave threat to international security and to the lives of innocent people. Also, I presume most people feel that killing over 200 people deserves to be punished.

His sentence was to die in prison... his impending death gives me no joy or celebration, but I also believe that sentence should be served.

To see him being treated as a hero in Libya is especially disgusting.

You mean those who believe in concepts of heaven and hell.

For the rest of us, he's just going to live the remainder of his days in the comfort of his home.

I don't see how dying cancer patients are a grave threat to anyone. I've seen it before, and what it tells me is that it doesn't quite matter where you are in the days before the disease claims you—you aren't going anywhere.

And wouldn't it have cost more to care for him in prison rather than send him to his family?

There was a documentary on this last night in Canada on the CBC's Passionate Eye. Very interesting story involving Scotland Yard, the FBI, the CIA,..conspiracy theories, cover ups, people being bought off etc,etc. Certainly not a simple operation.

Not quite sure how I feel about his release. One part of me says sometimes it is time to move on, what is done is done. Many people in history have done more heinous crimes and received a lot less punishment. But the other side is the unknown since I am not directly involved as being related or close to the victim's, so that is the difference. I would probably feel differently maybe.

May be able to find this on YouTube or a rebroadcast (edit- it is on Youtube)

Conspiracy Files: Lockerbie - Passionate Eye Monday | CBC Newsworld

Sorry, forgot to add You tube link;

It was just pointed out to me by my wife that maybe the celebration wasn't just because he'd come home, but also because it was the begining of Ramadan.

The calmness today seems to indicate that the state has opted not to make such a big deal of it all once they got the letters from the US and UK governments.

I thought that Alex Salmond's interview on the BBC was good this morning. BBC NEWS | UK | Salmond defends Megrahi decision

Actually I think you are doing enough arguing for the both of us, because you are certainly upset about things I never said.

Along with Dlish's irateness, my post(s) have been called "outrageous" behind the scenes.

So was it outrageous?

Without jumping to conclusions, making asuumptions, or being an internet psychic, the only 3 thing that can be gleaned from my post(s) are :

1) al Megrahi is currently a Muslim. (proved by article)

2) For however long he has been a Muslim, he belives his every action has been the Will of Allah (pretty much by definition).

3) If he were to be miraculously healed, he would probably (again, by definition) give the credit to Allah.

End of story.

P.S. I sincerely apologize that my poor choice of words has made more work for The_Jazz. I have edited the post that is causing him grief. I will also freely admit that his penis is probably larger than mine.

again i digress. you imply things and when i ask you to provide me with something you give short veiled responses without providing that information. im by no means irritated. i'm trying to engage in a discussion where you keep moving the goal posts.

for the record the article is quoting his brother Mohammed Ali and not Abdelbaset himself.

1) agreed.

2) agreed, by definition any and every action is by Allahs' decree. but you failed to tell me the intention he had in which he did the bombings. your first post refers to him as a good and faithful servant. if you know anything about the concept of Decree and Predetermination under islamic law, which are vast subjects in islamic theology, you will know that though someone might do an action, though it's gods Will, it doesnt mean that god neccesarily condones it, nor does it mean that the person will get blessings for it, even if it is in His name (like this bombing for example). Murder is considered one of the biggest sins in Islam. Under the classical definition, to murder one person is to have murdered all of humanity, and you will be held accountable for it.

so yes, he will be held accountable for killing 270 people. so much for

3) if he was healed he'd give credit to Allah the same way that he should give credit to Allah because he's got cancer. doesnt make him the faithful servant that you want him to be.


Again i ask that you prove that his intentions for the bombing was based on a religious justification.

on a side note, this is getting off topic,I'm happy to carry this on in another thread in Philosphy or Politics.

It's also interesting to note that Ramadan is a period of self-reflection and forgiveness.

Interesting point.

Therin lies the rub. Did I say he had intentions of anything? Did I say he was guilty of anything?

ill quote your two quotes

this is what we're discussing in the last few posts, the "good and faithful servant" and the "Will of Allah".

if you're now saying that you didnt say he's guilty of anything and you didnt say he had any intentions, then theres no use discussing anything anymore is there?

I just can't believe you don't see the irony.

..back to the topic

it seems that the libyans are saying that his release was tied to commercial agreements whilst the british are vehemently denying this

Bomber?s release stirs diplomatic row - Terrorism- msnbc.com