why do we prevent suicide?
 

ok, i'm serious here.

when someone claims they are going to commit suicide, or says they really want to and seem pretty serious about it, why do we spend such effort trying to prevent them from doing it?

really, why?

so we can arrest them, charge them for attempted murder, and give them the death penalty!

i don't.
people are going to do what they want to do.
my job is to make sure that people have information to make their own decisions.
they ask me something, i'll give them the best answer i can.
i'm actually for assisted suicide, which i think we're not offering enough.
but it never really made much sense to me... just makes me sad sometimes that people want to give up. but if they really, truly do, i don't see how i can stop them?
except kids. i've had to call the cops a couple of times to baker act a few kids.
but i don't think that they were truly old/cognitively aware enough to understand the consequences of their actions.

Because the human race seems to think that weakness deserves special care and priority above all else.

It's bullshit, and it makes our species, as a whole, weaker. If you can't hack this world, please do off yourself, preferably before you reproduce.

because religion says so.. this topic is really interesting.. I'm going to be doing some googling after this to see if i can find any more information on the subject.

For me, it would depend on the situation. Someone that is depressed and wanting to commit suicide is a lot different from someone with a terminal disease living in constant pain.

The depressed person could have a mental condition or just be a self-centred ass (or points in-between). Regardless, with time, this person will likely change their point of view on suicide.

The terminal patient living in constant pain? Why prolong the inevitable?

Often people that are suicidal are in a highly emotional state where their perception of the world and their life is not objective. In other words, they might be in a state of mind where they could make a decision they might otherwise, in a better state of mind, disagree with.

I'm not against euthanasia or suicide, but I don't think it's as black and white as yes and no.

I sincerely hope you are going for the 'entertainment value' with this response because I find it absolutely deplorable.

I am a social worker so you can label me touchy-feely all you like but....I also volunteer my time answering the phone's for a crisis center. A 24/7 hotline anyone can call, at anytime, with what they are personally experiencing and defining as a crisis. We also answer the NSPL lifeline.....

POINT: we prevent suicide because human life has value, no matter who you are. Mental illness and addiction can cause the mind and psyche to play horrible crimes on one's own mind. It is our moral responsibility to love our neighbors when they are unable to love themselves. Imagine your sister, brother, mother, cousin, boss, anyone you have experienced a positive interaction with....now imagine that they were hurting so horribly inside they saw no other alternative. Depression can happen to ANYONE, don't think that mental illness only affects "those people" you see on the corner begging for change and talking to themselves. "WEAKNESS" are you kidding me??? Suicide takes strength you can't even imagine, worse it takes everything and nothing, complete absence of self. Which is exactly why those 'weak' people choose this path, they can no longer feel or identify with anyone or anything and truly believe they and those they leave behind will be better off.

I have never felt (as one of those left behind) like I was better off; nor have I ever heard someone seeking my counseling that they felt better off.

And PS: suicide and assisted suicide in circumstances of terminal and painful-long term illness are completely different subjects and should be treated as such.

charlatan and will -

you both brought up depression/state of mind.

lets say someone is depressed, not in their right mind. let's say they want to off themselves. at that moment in time, for them, its really bad and suicide is the only way out, so why prevent them? we can say "they will change their mind tomorrow, they are confused" but at that moment, whatever they are feeling is the truth, and if they did off themselves, they wouldn't be around to regret it and say "oops, i overreacted there a bit."

I'm with Will. A mistake that cannot be undone has to be prevented. Suicidal thoughts are more than always a chemical imbalance. It's an illness. Euthanasia is a question of do the means justify the ends. But a suicidal person is more than often sick and can be helped.

Dang' this forum moves fast ...

No squeeeb, at that point in time they simply cannot come to a conclusion that will summarize their entire lives' turmoil and hardship. It cannot be absorbed in a notice of a couple of days. In order for one to actually resolve something terribly taxing on their emotions they have to do it in a very long stretch of time. Hence the mistake that is suicide.

says who? and honestly, what does that mean? it sounds nice, it sounds right, but it's not quantifiable. my idea of values are different than yours are different than his etc etc etc.

i'm not trying to be a dick about it, i'm not questioning this is how you feel or this is what you believe, i'm not saying you are wrong. obviously others think this, that is why we have to watch patients overnight in the ER when they come in on attempted suicides.

i ask "why don't we just let them go do their thing?"

just because some people think and believe this doesn't mean we all do, or that we have to subscribe to it. you might think my life has value, i might disagree. who are you to tell me i can't off myself? (i don't want to, i'm just asking as a point of clarification)

---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ----------

lets, for the sake of keeping it on some kind of track, not include euthanasia. i'm not talking assisted suicide, i'm talking someone thinks their life is shit and they just want to die and end it all.

just a side note since i brought it up... i view euthanasia and assisted suicide as different.
i support assisted suicide not only for the terminally ill.
i was not speaking of it only in terms of being available only to those living with long-term illness.

i, too, am a social worker... for now. but i don't feel that i have to love everyone. nor do i feel that i must save everyone or even can. mental illness can be just as painful as physical and i don't really have the right to tell someone whether or not they're better off being physically here. i subscribe to "do no harm" to a point. i'll never encourage it and i'll follow through with the responsibilities that i am prescribed by my chosen profession, but outside of my job, my views are very different.

and they are mine. i was asked and i shared. and i'll not look down upon anyone else's thoughts on the subject. no one is right or wrong. we just are.


edit: okay, definitely moving too fast.
my bad on the assisted suicide. but i tried to clarify.

for those who say, "it'll pass"... what if suicidal ideations don't?
what if they continue to feel them and continue to be depressed?
is it okay then?

A scenario: Someone is depressed (i.e. mentally ill) and decides they are going to kill someone else. Do you stop them?

According to your point of view, "at that moment in time, for them, its really bad and suicide (or in my case, murder) is the only way out, so why prevent them?" You suggest also suggest that human life might have to be seen as valuable so who is to say one life is more valuable than other?

i would stop the murder because it involves another human who might not want to be killed at that moment. no matter if the murderer is mentally ill or just angry or whatever. it involves another, so consent is required. (not to get off track....do you remember years ago that german guy who paid someone to kill him and eat him, or something like that? two consenting adults, i see nothing wrong with it).

suicide is just one person doing what he wants to his own body.

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

you were asked and you did share and i thank you, so don't apologize for stating your opinion, i want to hear what others think about this no matter what they think, i just want to know.

Saving someone today so they can appreciate it tomorrow isn't something you can just discount. You need to provide them the opportunity to make the determination when of sound mind. It's about knowing consent.

Because no one wants to clean up the resulting mess.

I think that is why we dont allow suicide in such a flagrant manner. It is a final decision at that time, and one cannot correct the mistake of over-reaction. It is too late. We are our bodies, and chemicals play a part in our feelings. Chemicals go uppp and dowwwn. Once the body is gone, well its all over.

Also, one's death affects families, friends, and others. We dont want that hardship for them.

And what Bill O'Rights said.

I don't understand this insistence on someone being in their right mind. We don't live in the objective world, we live in the subjective world of our minds. Who else has the right to tell you whether continued suffering is worth the chance of changing that subjective world, especially if they aren't capable of seeing that world?

I can see an argument for stopping someone temporarily to try and correct what you percieve as misinformation on their part, but I can't envision a justification for overruling someone's judgement or perception that doesn't necessitate a severe reduction of the validity of differing viewpoints.

What is it they say? Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem?

In order to commit suicide, you would need to be in an altered state of mine. Depressed, angry, in agony. To end your own life goes against every natural instinct that we have. It causes a world of pain, guilt and regret to those left behind.

I know two people who have considered suicide at least once in their lives. Now, years later, they wouldn't dream of it. They have a lot to live for. I'm sure their families are living better lives because of it, too.

So is it worth it to try and save someone who's seriously committing suicide? Of course is fucking is. They're human, they're just in a lot of agony right now, and they're not seeing clearly. Perhaps all they want is for someone to try and stop them.

Perhaps selfishness might also be a motivation. I know if I could go back in time and prevent my father from committing suicide I would do it. I'd rather have my father alive than dead.

In his case, I see his depression as a no different than cancer. I would want to save him from death from either affliction.

I knew this would be your opinion on this subject. I completely agree. Let them fucking do it and be done with it.

So Dani and Punk... if someone is crippled or sick and requires "special care" are you suggesting that we should not provide them this care because it makes our species weaker?

It isn't far from what you suggest to this conclusion.

This sort of policy has existed before. It didn't go down all that well.

(sweet jesus I can't believe I am godwinning a thread...)

Im sure there are countless examples of kids who are happier because one of their parents didnt commit suicide, lovers who are happier because their loved ones didnt commit suicide, and so on and so forth. So there are obviously people who benefit tremendously from suicide prevention. It certainly won't stop everyone every time, but if it stops a few once in a while, and they go on to change their minds, great.

It is myopic to only see everything in terms of personal responsibility and/or survival of the fittest.

Until it's your mother, sibling, friend, colleague, partner or child..... right?

Y'know - I stopped someone from offing themselves a few years ago (a stranger in my neighbourhood). He seemed pretty serious about it and was ready to go.

But, I stopped him and for years afterwards I saw him walking around the area with his dog.

I feel justified in doing what I did.

---------- Post added at 05:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 AM ----------

I agree this is how it plays out most times. I fully understand wanting to die if you have some painful, degenerative disease that's not going to get any better.

But when kids and people in their 20s off themselves, it's usually for, as you say, a much more temporary problem.

Yeah, this is the underlying reason I have always suspected.

Someone who really wants to kill themselves may give off signals, but they don't go around saying they want to kill themselves...

The people who SAY they want to kill themselves are looking for help.

I'm neither for nor against suicide. I do see it as a viable option in certain cases ...

However, the argument about depression is really difficult. To say that a person considering suicide is "feeling something at a certain moment" and should be allowed to commit suicide is difficult and may not be correct.

Case in point: I have a friend who was going through a divorce. He was getting very "edgy" and unpredictable as this divorce drew out. He'd had problems his entire adult life with something similar to bipolar disorder/depression. One day, his soon-to-be ex-wife called me and said that he'd called her to say goodbye. She asked me to go over to his house and see if he was OK.

I fully expected to see the aftermath of a suicide when I got there. However, he was sitting on the couch with a hand gun. I asked him to put it down and talk about it. If he still felt like dying he could do it after the talk and when I was gone. Meanwhile, my wife called the police.

It turns out, that it was a suicidal gesture. The fact is, most people who say they are going to commit suicide aren't actually going to do it. It's the people who don't say anything that actually do it. So you're not really preventing a suicide in most cases--just preventing an accident.

My friend was not charged with attempted murder or put in jail or executed (they don't execute for attempted murder anyway). He was sent to a psychiatric facility for four days and then told to see a doctor about his depression.

Two weeks later he was diagnosed with pernicious anemia (Pernicious anemia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which was most likely the root cause of his bipolar-like behavior.

Six months and numerous B12 shots later he's like a completely new person.

I suppose he's weakening the gene pool with his anemia, but then again so am I because I wear glasses.

As a primarily utilitarian society, we have to be against suicide. Suicide hurts everyone connected to the person that goes much more than the person that goes. Once you're dead, you're dead and don't care anymore, but everyone left alive has to suffer. As much as your life is primarily your own, your connection to others is immense, and we'd really rather have you living. It's much easier on the collective mental wellbeing if we only have one of us suffering.

But, in the same vein, if one of us is suffering, then the greatest good is still not being achieved. A utilitarian society, such as ours, must strive to cure suffering and illness.

A rather natural state of a human being is one where we want to live. We will even fight to the death for it. If someone wants to die, more often than not it suggests there is something seriously wrong.

Most of us like to fix or change things that are going wrong.

This is exactly what I was thinking. If someone tells you they want to die, they are really asking for help deciding if life is worth going on with.

I am all for a person choosing when they want to die, as long as they don't take any unwilling people with them. People who really want to die will go ahead and do it. It can't be that hard, people die accidentally all the time.

Isn't the law against suicide basically just justification to get a failed suicide some help?

It seems to me that the decision to live or die should be a protected individual right. Perhaps the government should have some restrictions on where you do it and/or the disruption to the public.

If someone were drunk, and said they were going to kill themselves, would you act to stop them?
If someone were drunk, and said they were going to kill themselves, would you act to stop them?

etc., etc.,

When people are in a different 'state of mind' we recognize that they aren't in a position to make objective decisions about important matters, sign legal contracts or and in some cases unable to act in self-preservation at all.

I think suicidal thoughts are an altered state of mind, one which directly impacts our ability to make rational decisions like any other. As a result, I don't believe they can make objective decisions about life or death questions.

In the case where someone is committing suicide for a legitimate physical malady which makes life unbearable, I make an exception. But no amount of mental anguish is enough for a rational person to commit suicide or even consider it at length.

As someone who has had friends commit suicide, acted in a way vanblah described above, and even who have asked me to "accidentally kill them" so as to not be embarrassed by the stigma of suicide, and as someone who strongly believes in personal liberty and responsibility and loathes 'nanny state' government, I FULLY support a forced legal commitment to an institution for medical evaluation (up to 1 week) of anyone who indicates by action or words that they intend to commit suicide.

I think it varies by state but there really is no "law" against suicide in the United States. There is a law against assisted suicide.

EDIT: I see what you are saying ... the "law" is for someone to get help.

Yeah, I probably should have quoted law there. Wherever there is a "law" about attempted suicide I think the goal is to get help for the individual attempting...

My thoughts exactly. Also, due to the fact that most people who try to commit suicide and fail end up dying from causes other than suicide (i.e. don't try/succeed at killing themselves), I think most people realize after they start that their problems are in fact, not as important and more transitory than their life is.

Reading the studies on this is actually pretty interesting reading for those into psychology.

EDIT: I think that's an oversimplification, while the underlying point of probability is true.

EDIT #2 (yes I will read the entire thread next time before posting):Many, many, many people who try and fail report realizing that they did in fact wish to live after the point of no return.

The only specific factual article I read about that was those that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge in suicide attempts during my research about the barrier they are talking about putting up; it seems like a lot of people jumped and then realized that they regretted it. I think it's safe to assume it would hold to more cases than just jumps off of historical landmarks.

I do agree many people do truly want to, and will find a way to do it. I'm just saying those people are not the whole equation and might even be outnumbered.

To give it a serious response, it's because despite that person feeling worthless and ready to kill themselves, someone had to care about them enough to even know they were going to consider suicide.

A truly lonely person with nothing left to live for isn't going to have a friend or acquaintance who will notice signs of depression, or hear the comment about taking ones own life to act on.


I hate people who commit suicide all the same though, and I will shittalk them endlessly.

it's the ultimate act of selfishness.

If it is a rational decision, I agree, let them go. However, more frequently people try to suicide out of emotional pain; normally a temporary situation which heals with time: suicide under those circumstances is just a waste, an enormous pity and very difficult for friends and family. It would be akin to allowing someone to die of an infection when a brief intervention can heal the wound. To punish people for attempting suicide is just stupid and I didn't think there were still societies that unenlightened.

So that Bear Cub can get them first.

If someone wants to leave his friends and family (permanently) to live far away, should he be prevented from doing so? How many people are happier because their s.o. chose not to leave them despite having difficulty? Even when their problems are easy to solve, we don't deny people the right to walk away. Thier right to self-determination trumps others' feelings. Why should this standard be reversed in cases of suicide?

i'm not sure if it was said, but what of the people that say they are going to commit suicide and actually do with a "success" or a "failed" attemp? i have personally seen this happen.

actually i'll admit up and tell that it was myself. i said it, did it, but it was a failure. yes, the state of mind was in a irrational way. under serious amounts of stress combined with different factors. details? how did i manage to fail at my attempt? no, i don't think that is a explanation i want to share.

don't naturally assume someone who says they're going to is a cry for help. sometimes, they really do follow through, whether or not they "succeeded" or "failed"

to give my opinion on it so as to not have completely derailed the thread. help someone prevent it if they say it. keep watch around family and friends for signs that they're not saying it and could be a possible. sometimes stopping it will make them grateful they didn't. sometimes not. i have my days where i don't say a word about the past and wish that i hadn't "failed". did someone come to stop me? no.

but, as for those that are in a state of like some said, terminally ill cancer, or they're have some quite serious problems that is only prolonging the inevitable, assisted would be something that they should be given a choice of. some may wish to stay around to the end to spend more time with the family. some don't wish to stay in their state of being with it being a torture to themselves. selfish? yes.

(trying to start getting into posting more but i feel sometimes i kill out a thread since i'm the last one and no one else says anything else lol)

I suppose you're right. I hadn't considered it like that, I suppose.

It still seems to me that suicide is one of the worst things you could do to the people around you.

Thanks for weighing in on this one, Suzz - these words mean much more coming from someone who has been there. I don't think it will be much of a threadjack if you share a bit more with us.

EDIT: took out the explanation since it seems to have killed the thread after i shared it.

I don't see why anyone should be allowed to interfere with anyone else's life. As long as someone's activities don't impinge on you, leave them the fuck alone.

I generally don't think we should besides educating them/giving them options. I think assisted suicide should be legal too. But why do we? Because we don't like death and it is very hard on their loved ones.

... don't want to clean up. Death is expensive. Think of the burial costs.

QFT.

Quit wasting everyone's time and just do what you need to do. And to the social worker: Anyone who calls a "crisis hotline" is not actually serious about killing his or herself. They're just being emo. Seriously. If someone wants to die, they will die. They will put a 12 gauge in their mouth and blow their brains out. They will find some abandoned house and OD there so no one will find them. They will lock themselves in their room, barricade the doors and windows, and then slit their wrists/throat so no one can get to them in time.

Of course, I'm referring to people who "attempt" suicide regularly, or have these thoughts regularly. I'm not gonna hold it against a guy if he tries to puss out once in his life.

"Through early morning fog I see, visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me, I realize and I can see . . .
That suicide is painless, it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make all our little joys relate
Without that ever-present hate, but now I know that it’s too late,

and . . .That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The game of life is hard to play. I’m gonna lose it anyway.

The losing card I’ll someday lay so this is all I have to say.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The only way to win is cheat and lay it down before I’m beat,

and to another give my seat for that’s the only painless feat.

That suicide is painless, it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The sword of time will pierce our skins, it doesn’t hurt when it begins

But as it works its way on in the pain grows stronger . . . watch it grin, but . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

A brave man once requested me, to answer questions that are key
'Is it to be or not to be' and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.
And you can do the same thing if you choose."

Because they want me to get a job and be a part of functioning society. I'm sorry, Man, but I just gotta go. Hell is awaiting my arrival.



I wonder why people want to stop me from dying, and then they go and make my life worse by nagging me and telling me how stupid and awful I am.

Why am I in a group therapy that tells us to ignore bad thoughts but focus on good thoughts? And they want me to believe in a higher power.. which I already do. But, I'm too selfish to care what they say... I just know I should've died when I tried, and they only saved me because they happened to find me and they were like, "Shit, I don't want to go to jail."

Do people really care about me? Yeah, but my disease tells me no. In order to function properly, I need somebody to give me a chance. That's what group therapy does. Also, not only does suicide affect me.. it affects everybody that loves me or cares for me. They can go into depression, too, after my death and then they won't function properly. It's a chain reaction.

Stopping one suicide could eliminate all of that.

Hey, do you want to know what else weakens our species (or, more accurately, our society)? The above sentiment.

Those of strong character generally want to help people, even strangers--that's one reason why we want to prevent suicide. Others don't give a damn.

"QFT" my ass.

(Where T = "truth.")

Sorry BG, but I disagree. I'd help a stranger in need-I've helped people escape from two different house fires. But if someone wants to die-REALLY wants to die-then who am I to stop them? And if they don't really want to die, then they shouldn't be attempting suicide to begin with. Logic, really. I've often discussed this with my sister (who has "tried" committing suicide numerous times, not to mention self-mutilation) and we disagree. She claims that one of the times she really did want to die, and I responded that if she wanted to die, she would've found a way, and that it was probably just a display of attention-seeking behaviour.

Personally, I think the inherent selfishness and lack of perseverance involved with suicide detracts far more from the human race than I ever could.

Felix,

I could be wrong--I often am--but I stand by my previous statement that a healthy human being generally wants to live, and someone wanting to die, especially if they are otherwise in good physical health, probably has something wrong with them psychologically and should probably get help, even if they don't seek it. There are many people who aren't even suicidal who should get help even if they don't seek it.

You make a good point; however, I'm not sure what you say would always apply.

Thanks Baracka, you said it well.

Felix? I am hearing you somewhat.
What I am hearing is the pain and frustration and the anger of having someone
you love try to leave you.

People that hastily judge others,cross them off a list, label them this or that,
are the ones that seem weaker and lazier to me.

I felt helpless, powerless, frightened, lonely & frustrated, and Abandoned,when my ex-husband attempted suicide
at least 5 times while we were married.

It can wear a person down after while, I know,
but I could never lose the empathy and compassion for what that
person was feeling.

When I hear people judging it as 'weakness-selfishness'
what I really hear, is the fear. The fear of going to that place of understanding.
Understanding what another persons pain consists of, makes us confront and acknowledge, our own.

Sorry, I've been pretty much MIA for like a week, so I have a lot of answering to do...

Weakness, indeed. To kill oneself shows one cannot hack this world. Guess what, shit's hard. Either get a fucking helmet or get out.

Lives are really not worth that much. People die all the time. Most people don't have a choice when or how they go. People who commit suicide determine it for themselves. They take it into their own hands. i.e. It's the easy way out.

If you want the easy way out, who the hell am I to keep you from it?

If they are genetically crippled or sick, I believe*, they should be removed from the gene pool. Especially since human beings have negated natural selection (Which is what brings up problems like suicide in the first place.) from occurring amongst our race for the most part.

I feel the same no matter who it is. My own sister has had suicide issues in the past. She's always gotten the same advice from me as anyone else:

Either go through with it, or stop it.

Don't get me wrong, if she went through with it, I'd mourn her death, but how can I feel too bad for anybody that took life into their own hands and went with the easy/selfish way out?

You're right, I don't give a damn about people who commit suicide. People die. That's all there is to it. Whether you go out from some freak accident or by your own hand, you're dead just the same. At least, with suicide, you had a choice in the matter.

Overall, I feel* that suicide is the same as calling it quits. It's a weak, self-indulgent way to leave this world. If that's how you'd like to let people remember you, be my guest.
_____________________________
*Note to reader: Please remember that these are my beliefs. The beliefs of a moderately educated (at best), middle class (at best) human. I don't mean to offend; I'm just answering a question.

That is what this is all about, isn't it?

This is a tidbit from the Canadian Mental Health Association:
Suicide Facts & Myths

This isn't necessarily directed at you, P.o.A., but more so at the thread. I don't think the decision to commit suicide is a rational one. I don't think it's usually a decision based on thrills or excitement either. It's mainly a decision based on pain, suffering, or anguish. Anyone suffering like that should get help. Making the decision to commit suicide isn't the same as making other sorts of decisions. It's not necessarily about "being unable to hack it in life." It can be spurred by severe mental dysfunction caused by some kind of trauma.

I don't blame anyone for taking a steadfast negative view of suicide. Mental health issues of all sorts have negative stigmas against them, mainly because they're difficult to understand and impossible to see. It's along the same lines as people who think depressives should simply "snap out of it" and "get their shit together." It's not that easy.

It's not that easy because people keep saying it isn't...

I should point out that I've "been there and done that". I've been severely depressed. I've been on the verge of suicide. I've been, the way I feel about it, weak.

You know what brought me out of it? My own strength of mind. I didn't need coddling, meds, or a lobotomy. I just needed to take shit into perspective and realize I was being weak. I had to gather my strength.

Rereading my posts, I've realized I'm coming off as though I'm trying to say, "Tell them to fuck off and die.", and I'm really not. I'm just saying I don't think suicidals should be coddled and given special care. I feel the most effective help is to let them know they're being weak and need to find some strength, however they feel that needs to be done.

Punk.of.Ages, what you have done is remarkable. Knowing this about you, I have a new-found respect for your character. Actually, I must go so far as to say that you are an inspiration to me. I, too, have had my own challenges--dealing with severe emotional abuse--but I was never so burdened as you. Even so, I have had many yo-yo experiences, and I can relate to having to delve into the strength of mind to overcome it.

I don't think everyone can do this to the same degree. Mental health issues aren't only about behavoural patterns and habits. There are also issues of chemical and otherwise physiological dispositions that cause problems. Sometimes people really should simply be medicated if they have severe issues and there is evidence there is something wrong with their "wiring."

But I agree with you. I don't think those struggling with suicide should be "coddled." That doesn't help anyone. I'm sure there are programs, however, that work towards guiding the patients by empowering them, rather than pushing them into something or catering to their habitual desires.

Do you think there is merit in programs that help empower these people to help themselves? Is that a kind of help you would support?

I can support that kind of help. The kind that helps people who are truly in a place where they need it and aren't just there to feed on the pity of others. It's just like anything else; you have to be willing to help yourself before anybody can help you.

My sentiments toward suicide are actually very akin to the ones I hold toward overdoses.

Well, I think the two can be related. People use drugs to escape painful things as well. Any program with any merit would do what I think we both would want them to do, which is encourage self-healing.

Any program worth its weight in salt is nowhere near a pity party.

there are some very basic problems with much of the eugenics-style arguments above (you know, fuck em for the sake of the gene pool).

first off, there is no human race in general. you can refer to an abstraction like "the set containing all human beings" but it's just an abstraction. in the actually existing world, there are people in particular situations--social broadly construed, personal (however that is understood--and it's a variable) within that. in the broader social contexts, the principal criterion you are talking about through this bizarre-o word "strength" is functionality. it is simply not the case that social groups privilege anything like an optimized set of capacities if by optimized you mean relative to some abstract or general standard. functionality is a relative term. relative to the modes of production. relative to patterns of family organization. relative to a lot of factors. it is ayn rand bullshit to conflate, say, the particular capacities that adaptation to capitalism (another abstraction, really) with some overall notion of "human progress" or its derivatives. adaptation to a particular environment, a particular context, is adaptation to a particular environment or context. thats it. any more general statement is arbitrary.

there is no material perspective informed by a notion of "gene pool"---the notion of gene pool is a theoretical construct, a noun-effect. even the relations between genetic structures and actual capacities is not fully understood. what orienting yourself around this rhetoric leads you to is a cheap spenserian notion--you know, social darwinism. it has the aesthetic benefit of making you feel all pseudo-scientific, as if this notion of "gene pool" gave you access to an extra-social reality. well, it doesn't. it gives you access to a series of rhetorical effects. you use it to rationalize attitudes that neither come from these effects or rely on them for a kind of "proof"--you use them because they're aesthetically appealing.

the idea that the most adapted to a given context are the strongest--the ubermenschen--has a pretty foul political history.

as for why it makes sense to try to prevent suicide---first most follow from transient situations. second because there's a definition of what and equitable society is that contends it's measure lay in how that society cares for it's most vulnerable people. it's no wonder, for example, that so many americans buy into social darwinism and all its fake-scientific trappings--the united states is a pretty shitty place when evaluated by that definition. and it's easier to run away from it than try to think of how it might be different.

it's probably true that if someone really wants to kill themselves that the question of stopping them is moot.
and it's also true, in my view, that folk who are in hopeless, painful medical situations should be able to choose to end their lives.

but in between...i dunno. i think it's better to at least try to help, as a society, than not to. i think it's an ethical imperative. but that's just my view.

Suicide is different for different people. For some it's a way out, for others they really want to die. Their brain chemistry is totally different from a normal person's.



In my experience, it's all about stopping the cycle of depression in order to create a more functionable society.

I think the best way is to make the person realise that what he / she is doing is not right. its not possible to stop the person unless n until they realise it. vecause all the time no one wll be thr to stop him in the last min.

in regards to my prior post with my first hand experience of this, i'm going to keep it short. if you want futher details message me.

i stated that once before just because someone says they're going to commit suicide, is not always true at being a cry for help. and that sometimes, they really do follow through after that statement. never assume that statement is just a cry for help.

in my own personal experience at attempting, i had been going through quite some stress over a 3 or 4 month period. it was just after the holidays, i had just lost my boyfriend to my best friend in my own home. my child was off on vacation with her dad for the week. i called the ex boyfriend said it, and followed through.

no, i didn't succeed obviously.... but i did go through with it. how the hell i survived i'm not sure i'll ever know. there were alot of things that went about with mine that i shouldn't have survived the attempt. so, there was a cry for help, if you want to call it that. there was no one to intervene or to talk to me to rationalize it all before i tried.

i spent a week in the hospital under my psychiatrist, was on a new medicine since apparently the other wasn't working. i'm not saying that i've had no problems since then. i've had alot of bad days and some good days. 2 and half years later i'm still taking it one day at a time and how things come about in their own ways.

i have more support in the past 2 years than i did for the 5 prior to that time.

and as trupthi01 said, no one will always be around to stop them at the last minute. with or without the cry. everyone has made valid points as well as presented some very good opinions and questions on the subject.

everyone is different when it's their mind when it comes to suicide. some have a chemical problem and need the medicine to help them. sometimes we can't just go "ok i'm not going to be depressed any more". sometimes we need the outside help and medication to be stable and continue to be as well.

if you have questions, feel free to message me.