squeeeb

times change, people change, we are doing stuff now because that's how we've been doing it for years.

i was thinking about age limits, and there are three areas i was wondering if we should think about changing the age limits on: voting; drinking; and sex.

what if we raised the voting age to 22? by that time most people are out of college (if they go) and have been working for a while and have a better understanding of life outside in the real world, not living under the auspices of mom and dad. i don't know if i want an 18 year old to help determine how i'm gonna live, we have different priorities, and like it or not, i know a lot more and have way more experience than a 18 year old.

what if we lowered the legal drinking age to non existent (but you can't buy until you are 15). i grew up with italian grandparents. coffee for breakfast, off to kindergarten and first grade, wine with dinner, shot of whiskey or anisette or B&B after church on sunday morning. drinking wasn't a big deal for me, i understood what it meant and that was that.

what if we lowered the statutory rape/age of consent.

kids are having sex when they are 14. years and years ago, and still in some countries, that was an age to be married. yeah, i know back then people lived to about 40 so 14 was middle aged, we live longer now, etc. but what if we lowered the age of consent? what if people could get married at 15 even if they didn't live in iowa?

here are two age of consent pages. they vary a small bit, i dont know which is correct

Age of consent

LEGAL AGE OF CONSENTomg (ageofconsent.com)omgomgomgomgomg Age du consentement à l’acte sexuel

(interestingly, afghanistan says it's illegal for man-man sex. HAH! homosexual pedophilia is a way of life there. i know this for a fact.)

is it an emotional/mental maturity thing? is that why the age of consent is higher? i know in some states, under some conditions, its lower. but if we started treating teens like adults, and expect them to act responsibly, and we taught them how to act and what to do, i think they can handle it.

i've met some very mature (rare, but i've met them) 16 year olds. i've met some very immature (sadly, not that rare) adults.

thoughts?

are there any age limits you would like to change?

__________________
onward to mayhem!

Jetée

Driving age should be raised to perhaps 17 to obtain a permit, and at least 18 to receive and be issued a valid license.

The age of consent for coplation varies greatly from region to region, but the average of what I find is usually a span in-between 16-18 years of minimum age that a person can consent to sex. To see a quick tablet overview of age of consent requirements from state to state and around the world, you can scan the list HERE.

Drinking age in the United States is the highest at 21 years of age. There are no limits on the act of imbibing alcohol in at least half-a-dozen countries well-known countries, including Portugal & China, while most other developed countries hover in-between the range of 16-18 years of age to legally drink.

I'll chime in to say that although I may not always agree with the political stances of green 18-year-olds, it should be their prerogative to become well-enough educated in matters of social agendas proposed by their respective political representatives in order to cast a ballot. I'd say a recommended age of 22 is fair enough, but I'd just as soon leave it where it is.

I say as soon as you are legally proclaimed an adult, you can do any and all of the above to your heart's content.

__________________
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—Mohandas K. Gandhi

thespian86

Drinking = 18
Cigarettes = 19
Voting = 18 (it's a basic right as an adult Squeeb - informed or not)
Driving = 19

etc. I think about 18, 19 most young adults are capable of restraining themselves or abiding the law (as much as adults do - which is very little). People like to point fingers at the young when they do small, stupid things. When the people pointing their fingers do it everyday.

A man of 40 gets in an accident and injures someone because he was driving irresponsibly and he gets sued/relies on insurance. A man of 20 does the same thing and it sparks debate on whether or not "kids these days etc etc". It pisses me off. being young does not equate irresponsibility. We should make testing and qualifying for licensing and such tighter perhaps, but lowering or raising age seems out of place in society today.

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girldetective

I have had this same conversation with Jeremy, the sexual age of consent in particular. It is a button that has been pushed over and over again. He believes the age of sexual consent should be 12, and he justifies it in a crazy way, saying there would be less child abuse, and cites the EU as evidence. I continue to tell him that no, that is not correct. To begin, the EU is not a country. I dont believe there are broad EU laws in re this subject. Second, if that were true, of course there would be less reported child abuse because the age is 12! Third, does that apply to boys and girls? Children do not have the wherewithall to be in sexual relationships. They may flirt with the idea, and just flirt, but they are not ready.

Tis subject came up with Jem because of his porn interest, and the book written by whoever that started in the industry when she was 14 or 16, and how it was a boon to her life and her career. My response was okay for that girl, I guess. However, where was a guardian of that girl, encouraging her to finish school, go to college, and then become the porn star that she is, when she was an adult and could make adult decisions. Isnt that what parents or adults do with children? Isnt that what theyre supposed to do? It is not often that I hear a mother or a father suggest the age of sexual consent be lowered when it comes to their children, unless perhaps theyre already abusing them.

Re the drinking and voting age, I would like to see them raised to 25. The age to drive, 16. The age to smoke cigarettes, 25. The age to enroll in a draft, never.

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Shauk

I think 16 is fine with a guardian present, 18 without.

girldetective

I have had this same conversation with Jeremy, the sexual age of consent in particular. It is a button that has been pushed over and over again. He believes the age of sexual consent should be 12, and he justifies it in a crazy way, saying there would be less child abuse, and cites the EU as evidence. I continue to tell him that no, that is not correct. To begin, the EU is not a country. I dont believe there are broad EU laws in re this subject. Second, if that were true, of course there would be less reported child abuse because the age is 12! Third, does that apply to boys and girls? Children do not have the wherewithall to be in sexual relationships. They may flirt with the idea, and just flirt, but they are not ready.

Tis subject came up with Jem because of his porn interest, and the book written by whoever that started in the industry when she was 14 or 16, and how it was a boon to her life and her career. My response was okay for that girl, I guess. However, where was a guardian of that girl, encouraging her to finish school, go to college, and then become the porn star that she is, when she was an adult and could make adult decisions. Isnt that what parents or adults do with children? Isnt that what theyre supposed to do? It is not often that I hear a mother or a father suggest the age of sexual consent be lowered when it comes to their children, unless perhaps theyre already abusing them.

Re the drinking and voting age, I would like to see them raised to 25.

__________________
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Jozrael

Age of consent: 12.
Drinking/smoking age: 18
Driving age: 15 (16 for license).
Voting age: 15.

If I could make the laws, this would be where they are. Got a question about em? Ask it.

Jetée

Traci Lords, who may still have a casual career and celebrity due to her previous notoriety, but I don't believe the experience she went through as a young and confused teenage porn star could be considered a "convenient stepping stone" to the status she has today.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Punk.of.Ages

This is how I feel...

When it comes to drinking, voting, and smoking, once you're entrusted with the title of adult, whatever age that may be, you should be trusted to make your own decisions in life. That simple.

The age of consent part... Not so simple. Honestly, I believe a person should be able to make a conscious decision as to whether or not they want to have sex with somebody as soon as they're able to reproduce. So, the 13-16 area. I also think this is when one should be established as an adult, and left to make their own decisions, but that can't happen with the society we live in today. Children are not made to grow up that fast.

This dilemma brings up issues. How will a 15 year old properly take care of a child in our society? How can somebody who hasn't matured fully capable of making a decision about sex? So, as it stands, I think 18 is the proper age of consent because that's when one becomes an adult and accountable for their own actions.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

DaniGirl

consent: 16
driving: 18
drinking/smoking: 18
voting: 18

I'm not deviating very far from the way things already are. When it comes to age of consent I think 16 is a good place to be. Driving is something that I think should be raised to 18, but to start drivers ed around the same time, just get more practice before being let out on your own. Now when it comes to drinking, smoking and voting I think if you are old enough to be on your own in the world then you should be considered an adult.

SecretMethod70

Interesting that the OP proposes 22 as a voting age. I'm perfectly content with 18, but if I had to choose to change it I would actually lower it to 16. Not only does it give people a little control over the world they will enter into as adults, but it would create an opportunity to engage young people in politics when they're a captive high school audience.

As for the rest, I generally favor low numbers with the exception of driving.

I don't believe age of consent should be any higher than 16, perhaps even as low as 14. There should certainly be limits to the age gap between partners at such young ages though: a 16 and 14 year old is one thing, but a 25 and 14 year old is an entirely different story. Of course, a young age of consent only works if we get our heads out of our asses as a nation and start providing full sex education early on.

Both drinking and smoking should have an age limit of 18, and I'd raise the driving age to 18 as well. Like DaniGirl, I think we should stat teaching kids to drive around 15/16, but let's wait a little longer before unleashing them upon the world in their own private little killing machines.

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Daniel_

Please tell me you mean "for drinking alcohol", because if you mean "for sexual intercourse" I DO NOT want to have to have that conversation with my daughter!

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

levite

Consent = 15
Smoking Pot (I believe in legalization)/Driving = 16
Voting/Marriage = 17
Smoking/Drinking/Military enlistment = 18


My feeling is, there aren't enough people voting as it is-- I am not in favor of any further restrictions on who gets to vote, and for that matter, let's knock a year off the minimum age, and let felons vote, even in the slammer.

The Federal age of consent should be 15, and if individual States want to go lower, I have no problem with that. Teenagers fuck. No sense letting some dumb cluck daddy hand his daughter's boyfriend over to the cops to get his life ruined as a sex offender. And give Roman Polanski some peace, the guy is ancient, and that was a long time ago.

I'm OK with driving being at age 16, and when the glorious day comes when America gets its head out of its ass and legalizes herb, I think 16 should be the potsmoking legal minimum age. It gives the kids something to party out with, and it's safer than lowering the drinking age.

No reason why kids are any less ready to get married at 17 rather than 18. Took me until I was 35 to feel even remotely mature enough and together enough to get married. Some dumb fuck thinks they're all set for it at 18, might as well let 'em get down to it at 17, it's no more stupid.

Smoking and Military Enlistment are both dangerous, and probably require second thought before beginning. Might as well keep it at 18. Drinking is also dangerous, but if you're old enough to smoke, and you're old enough to risk getting your nads shot off in the middle of back-ass nowhere for America's oil interests, it seems pretty stupid not to let you drink....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

SecretMethod70

I missed the 16 w/guardian comment regarding drinking age. I'm tempted to agree with that, but then I also think of the irresponsible parents who just want to be their kid's friend and so they throw parties and provide alcohol. I don't want to legalize that shit. I think I'd rather just make the drinking age 16 than give such parents further incentive to be "friends" with their child.

---------- Post added at 02:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 AM ----------

I think we need to be a little more complex than that with regards to felons voting, but I generally agree. Regardless of voting rights while in jail, I think it should be a federal crime to deny a citizen the right to vote once they have finished serving their time.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

CinnamonGirl

hmmmm.... interesting responses. Age of consent is fine with me at 16. I think 12 is waaaaay too young. Have you guys MET twelve year old girls? They don't have a clue.

The only thing I'd change, really, is the drinking age. And I wouldn't change it so much as add some extras for the younger crowd: you should be able to drink at 16 with permission from (and presence of) a parent. You can drink at 18, but with restrictions-- not in a bar at all, but in a restaurant until a certain time. Midnight, we'll say. Kind of like a "learner's permit," but for drinking.

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd be okay with raising the driving age to 17.

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little_tippler

There are far too many road accidents so I think the driving age being 18 (as it is where I live), is good.

I think consent should be 16, which I think it is here. Before that, I seriously doubt any teenager has the maturity to understand much about sex, and I don't just mean physically.

Drinking and voting - 18 (also what it is in Portugal). Unlike what I see from Americans, we don't complain much about legal age to do things here so I think it works for us generally. Also, it's pretty easy to get a drink from 16 upwards. So maybe it could be 16, I don't see the harm. I think the occasional drop of wine or champagne in the home, for a celebration, with supervision, is also ok, before that age.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Reese

I don't think old people should be able to vote because I don't want their out dated morals affecting my life. This is the only response I have to raising the voting age.

I'm all for re-thinking limits. Any thinking at all is good, in my opinion.

I think the legal age for anything is determined by how well we educate our children. Unfortunately for the US, We do such a bad job at educating our children about sex, drugs and voting that we have to restrict them pretty much as long as possible.

I also agree with Jetee, Once we're "adults" and no longer restricted to the number of hours we're allowed to work and we can fight in wars and vote, why not buy alcohol? It's a stupid restriction.

There's a lot of "I"s in this post..

I don't know about lowering the age of consent though. Teenagers are pretty stupid and easily influenced. Hell, I remember when having a car was the easiest way to pick up girls.

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genuinegirly

A set age for anything doesn't make much sense for me. People develop at different rates. I propose a new method: when one is certified physically and mentally mature by both a physician and psychiatrist, they gain adult responsibilities.

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Bill O'Rights

True. However...being 46, I know a lot more and have way more experience than a 22 year old. It's the way life works. Keep the voting age at 18.

Drinking age...18. Any age with a parent or guardian present. The reason being that 18 year olds are old enough to decide upon the next President of the United States, old enough to sign the dotted line to kill or be killed for their country, old enough to climb behind the wheel of a 2000lb peice of metal and glass and hurtle it down a highway. But 18 is to young to decide what brand of beer they would like to drink? I don't think so. We, in the US of A, make entirelly to big a deal over the "evils" of alcohol. I believe that if we stopped making such a big deal over it, then it really wouldn't be a big deal.

Driving? 17 to obtain a learner's permit, and drive with a licensed driver with a minimum of 5 years experience. 18 to legally drive.

Age of consent is something else altogether. I would like to say 16. But, does that mean that I, as a 46 year old, could legally have sex with a 16 year old. I don't really like that scenario. I have to think about this one for awhile. Waaay to many variables, that if removed, create even larger problems. This one's not so easy.

18 seems, to me, to be the "magic number". Hopefully, if the mentors in their lives have done an adequate job, then most 18 year olds should have the tools at their disposal to make reasonably sound decisions. Most...I hope.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

flstf

I'm generally in favor of lowering age requirements except for driving which is more of a public safety issue. Age of consent and drinking are more of a personal issue and the government should probably stay out of it as much as possible or at least err to the low side. Just because you think that something should not be illegal does not mean you advocate it.

Willravel

Drinking: 16
There's no way we're going to be able to take a bite out of alcohol poisoning in college unless we allow kids to grow up learning how to drink responsibly with parents. They shouldn't learn about alcohol away from home.

Consent: 16
I had sex at 14, which I think might have been a bit young, but 18 is silly. Most kids start masturbating around 12, experimenting with sex from 14-15 and are sexually active by 16. If we lower consent to 16, we can start sex ed earlier.

Marriage: 18

Voting: 14
I've posted about this elsewhere, but frankly I don't think there should be a part of the population that can't vote. I'd be willing to compromise at 14, though. 18 is out of the question.

Driving: 18
After 18 you take a written test and earn your permit, then take mandatory classes for 6 months. At 18.5+, you take the drivers test. If, at any point during the age of 18 and 20 you are caught speeding or driving recklessly, drinking and driving, etc. you don't drive again until you're 20. You can utilize our public transportation system.

Military enlistment: 22
If that. 18 isn't old enough to decide that the country is worth your life yet. Short of a war on the scale where a draft is necessary for mere survival, you should be about the age of a college senior before being able to enlist.

DaniGirl

Ok I don't know if you were joking or not so now I'm asking, why 12? That is way too young, do you have kids and would you be ok to know that they are sexually active at 12? Well POA says that he feels that once you can reproduce you should be responsible enough to have sex, but the way the world is right now kids are not informed enough and not mature enough to make rational decisions that can effect there whole life. If we start allowing kids to have sex at that young of an age we will have more young pregnancies and other issues.

Bill O'Rights

Yet, 14 is old enough to decide upon the next President?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Willravel

Military service isn't a right, voting is.

Daniel_

I gave my daughter (age 9) a glass of wine with our Sunday lunch. It was a thimble full of sparkling rose with a top up of soda water (basically just enough wine to give colour to the water), but I see nothing odd about that - it's how I was brought up, and I hope that by the time she's looking out for herself in social situations, she has enough experience of what alcohol is for and how it works to not end up as a drunken slut puking in the street.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Bill O'Rights

This isn't about rights, Will. Driving, drinking and having sex are not rights either. We are discussing age requirements.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Willravel

You asked why 14 is old enough. It's old enough because it's a right, the same right you and I enjoy. If you were being taxed and had to follow laws of a government in which you had no representative, wouldn't you hold a tea party? I would. Everyone in the US under 18 is taxed and is required to follow laws without representation.

This is about rights.

Punk.of.Ages

Exactly, how does a 14 year old who doesn't work pay any kind of taxes?

You aren't really subjected to the whims of the voted in government officials until you become an adult. Your parents are.

Maybe, once one enters the working world and does have to pay taxes and further contribute to society, they should be allowed to vote. I can see that, but I can't see how a non-contributing child should have a say...

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Willravel

Sales taxes in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Supreme Court Rules Strip Search of 8th Grader Was Illegal | NBC Washington
Look what happened when elected school board officials were left in charge. The SCOTUS had to step in.
I understand your point exactly. From now on all adults out of work cannot vote. If I remember recent polling correctly, that's nearly 10% of the population.

Punk.of.Ages

If the kid doesn't have a job, he's not spending his own money. This means said kid is not being taxed. Whoever gave him the money is.

This was illegal. This shouldn't happen, and this not happening should be, and is, handled by the people who do have a say.

Why not? If you don't contribute to your community, why be able to have a say in how it's ran?

I'm just saying that children have no real responsibility, and aren't made to make adult decisions. Voting is a right that comes with a lot of responsibility and involves adult decisions.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Willravel

That's not how ownership works. If money is given, the ownership changes. Besides, what if that kid earned the money raking grandma's front yard? That's not even a gift, it's a real contribution.

Some kids have paper routes as young as 12, btw (at least they did when I had a paper route about 12 years ago).
Regardless, elected officials do create and enforce laws to which children are subject. A 14 year old can be charged with breaking the law. A 14 year old can be arrested for breaking the law, but cannot be a part of the process by which we elect law makers? That's patently unfair and, frankly, it's possibly unconstitutional.
Because voting is a right, not a privilege. We allow unemployed people to vote because they still pay taxes and they still are subject to our laws. Being citizen means paying taxes and obeying the law in exchange for governmental services and the right to vote.
In theory, sure, but in practice voting is more often the result of partisanship or ignorance. We can't disallow the right to vote based on merits because it opens the floodgates. What if today we make it illegal for unemployed people to vote and tomorrow we make it so that the amount of taxes you pay determines how much your vote is worth? It's a slippery slope we shouldn't have any part of. Either everyone can vote or everyone can vote. There's no half-way.

Punk.of.Ages

I'm getting away from my point a little, so let me make it clear, I agree that working should have nothing to do with voting. I was just pointing out that if a child earns no money, they don't pay taxes. They don't pay for anything on their own, and, therefore, taxes aren't a loss to them.

My point is that I disagree that just anybody should have the right to vote. What happens when we turn your floodgate analogy around 180 degrees? Do we allow five year olds to vote? Mental capacity and experience have to come into account here. That's what becoming an adult, and taking on the responsibilities included, is all about. Just like everything else being discussed in this thread, the age limit should be set at when one is determined an adult. Our society has deemed that determination as the age of 18.

Because that is the age we choose to make people accountable for their own actions, that should also be the age we're allowed to make any decisions and be accountable for those as well. Sure, a 14 year old can be arrested and convicted of a crime, but, unless it's a particularly heinous crime, they'll also get little more than a smack on the wrist.

When you're a child in this country, your parents represent your opinion. That is how we have set things up. Until that changes as a whole, voting is something that should be left to adults.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Jozrael

Btw, I wasn't joking. I believe the age of consent should be 12. It's only recently in human history that we've arbitrarily decided 18 is the age of maturity, and decided that that (or a couple years earlier) is when you're allowed to start having sex.

I believe at puberty, there are theoretically some children able to give their consent. It's got to be what -they- want though, and I totally understand introducing age-difference restrictions so that those in a position of power over them can't abuse their position. Were the age of consent lowered to 12, we would need a slew of new laws to protect the children in similar ways that they are today. But I don't believe that a blanket ban saying 'sex is wrong' is entirely appropriate until age 16ish.

Obviously I need to give more thought to this to really convey a proper position.

Willravel

What does "pay for anything on their own" mean? Getting money as a gift means a transfer of the ownership of that money. If you don't think children pay for anything, feel free to visit a drug store near an elementary school at around 2:30 p.m.

I got an allowance from I don't know how old because I did chores and such around the house, which mean I had undeclared income long before I was 14 to spend how I saw fit, and every dollar I spent on a taxable item was taxes. I paid taxes long before I was 18, and so did you.
If mental capacity and experience are not prerequisites for adults to vote, why should they be for children?
We try kids as young as 14 as adults all the time. Some people arrested and convicted before turning 18 are serving life sentences.
My parents both voted Republican in 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, and my dad in 2000. They did not represent my views.

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

Knowing consent to sex is a tricky thing. Some young adults are mature enough to make a proper determination, but some aren't. Shoot, some adults don't have the maturity or experience to make a proper determination.

Bill O'Rights

Are you kidding me? Take a look at the tobacco taxes. Tax, tax, tax and tax some more. No representation there. We aren't even allowed to smoke in open air sports stadiums that were built with cigarette taxes. Why? "Cause who'se going to fuss? Only us dirty neer do well smokers.

Sales tax? By that line of thought, my 6 year old is taxed every time he buys a new bakugon, or tranformer toy, with his allowance. Should he vote? Come on, Will. You're a smart man. Exercise a little common sense with this.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

777

Now here's an idea, and with our ecomony in the state that it's in, this'll have the side effect of creating jobs, thousands and thousands of jobs (and raise taxes).

A side from that, the age limits should be set to where the majority of people are mature enough to handle being in those situations.

Driving - 16: This is a limit I'm ok with. Here in CA, you have to go through a driver training course as a requirement to get your licence if the person is between 16 and 18 years of age. Not all parents (including mine) are willing to pay around $500 for their inexperianced driver to roll around in their only car. I would like to remove the driver training requirement for a driver's licence, but add a day of driver training to any moving violation made while the person is still a minor.

Concent - 18: I'm sticking to the 18 years of age on this one. Mostly since that's the age (most) teenagers finish high school. Girls who become pregnant as teens have a tendancy to drop out. The high school I went to has a pregnant minor program that offers day care and a few other services to help teen moms finish school. More of these services So in case an under age girl does become pregnant, there's a system in place so that they can continue their high school education and possibly move on to college.

Although I don't have any numbers for the ages of the fathers that causes teenage girls to become pregnant, I have noticed that these guys are usually in their mid to late twenties. So let's not give them permission to pick up on teenagers by lowering the age of concent.

Drinking - 18: Ok, let's get this straight. At 18, you can be drafted into war and sent to kill and die for the US, but under no circumstances can are brave soldiers have a shot of scotch?! Also, people from 18 - 20 will go to underground parties and have their keggers. When the drinking age is lowered to 18, it will become common to see these younger people in bars and clubs, drinking in public where they can be monitored in case something goes astray. They'll learn that having a designated drive can be a cool thing, they'll drink in front of their parents and family instead of hiding away with a 40 or bottle of Jack, and they won't have to stargger through the streets to get home if these young people are drinking at home.

Voting - 18: Let's leave it here, since it was lowered from 21 after the Vietnam war since we were sending people to kill and die, yet they weren't old enough to have any way to vote against it.

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Willravel

Of course there's representation. Everyone 18 and over that smokes (other than convicts, that's for another thread) has an elected representative and the opportunity to vote. You smoke, you can vote. Bam, representation.
You seem to be having a completely different debate in your head.
By my line of thought, your 6 year old shouldn't have to pay sales tax. That's the deal. Either no taxation or taxation with representation.

The reason I think 14 is the golden age is because 14 year olds can be tried as adults, but it's exceedingly rare for it to happen younger than 14. If one can be tried as an adult, one should have the right to vote on laws.

Give this a read.

Xerxys

@ 777: I'm with you all the way.

Driving is complex and requires attention. 16 is just fine. But make the tests WAY harder and parents either pay for the lessons or teach their kids proper driving skills. And the tests required each and everytime road rules are violated.

Sex HAS to be 18. C'mon people!! Look at the complexities involved in sex. Of course WE ALL want to bump uglies but are under 18 year olds really ready for the phsychological effects of sexual activity? Besides, what about underage/early preganancys? Teen's are well known for recklessnes and irresponsible behaviours because (well duh!!) They're fucking reckless and irresponisble ... ALL of them are. Your daddy was so was you mom and her momma and daddy before her!!

Punk.of.Ages

When a child wants something they'll usually go to their parents and ask for the money. When the parent gives them the money to buy said item, they include tax. The child wouldn't get as much money if it wasn't for the tax. So, it's inconsequential to the child whether or not there are taxes.

Some children do get allowances. I didn't. I did my chores to earn the roof over my head, the shirt on my back, and the food on my plate, but I get your point.

You said in another post "no taxation, or taxation with representation". I can almost get behind the first half of that, but how do we stop adults from giving children their money to buy them things so they don't get taxed?

There should be prerequisites to become an adult, but, unfortunately, that's not how the society we live in works.

If it's a heinous crime they don't deserve any rights, anyway...

They did represent your views. That doesn't mean they represented them properly...

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Willravel

It doesn't matter how they got the money, they got the money. It's their money to spend. When they spend the money, some of it goes to the government. It's really that simple.
Bingo. If it were easy to ensure that children weren't going to be used by adults to avoid paying taxes, I'd simply say don't tax people until they're able to vote... but that doesn't work. The only way to do this is to allow kids to vote.
What rights? Children are taxed without representation, they can't vote, they are often subject to illegal searches, many can't freely practice their own religion... things aren't all that hot for kids and teens. The very least we can do is allow them the freedom to have their voices heard by the government. Allow them the opportunity to become aware that they can change their condition through the right of voting.
Okay, so if you vote for one person but your vote is counted for another, at least your government represented your views... though they didn't represent them properly.