Cynthetiq

I've been walking past the "Cheerleader who can't say smart stuff" billboard at least once a day for the past few weeks. I keep forgetting to photograph it and post it up here. After a thread devolved into a discussion about the parlance of "gay" I figured it would be a good opportunity to put together something about this. They have more videos on their website another with Hillary Duff.

I'm not really sure what to make of it, I've heard kids since I was one say it, I hear kids say it now. I don't hear kids say the same kind of slur for any others. I hear "that's ghetto." Or hear "ghetto" used in a similar fashion.

In ball busting mode with friends, there's nothing sacred to our slurs and slights we impact upon each other getting almost as vile as the worst version of Aristocrats one has ever heard, but that's in a very specific context of time, place, and participants.

I've spent plenty of time with the GLBT community members, and there are some that find it acceptable to use this kind of language, and there are others who find it unacceptable. I find this no different than those that are within any community and take or don't take umbrage to slurs.

Personally, I don't take umbrage to slurs, never have and never will even though I'm not white, have been teased and mocked as a kid for not being white, confused with being Chinese or Japanese. My parents taught me to not take offense to those kinds of statements.

So for those that don't care, they aren't going to make a big deal about it. They aren't going to put together a group of individuals to collect monies and make a campaign countering this as well, they simply don't care.

Those that do, in my opinion will pass on the offense. They will teach those that probably wouldn't have cared to begin with, to care, to be offended.

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Willravel

I haven't said "gay" in that way since I was maybe a sophomore in high school. When I said it then, it wasn't intended as a slight against homosexuals any more than repeating rap lyrics with "nigga" in them was intended as a slight against black people. Still, I can understand why homosexual people would be offended by it, and if I was caught in a restaurant with a thin mustache calling a funny little racist statue "gay", I'd apologize. I may not think Wanda Sykes is funny, but I wouldn't really mean to disparage her for her sexual preference.

Xerxys

She makes sense, seeing as I am guilty of using the term "so gay" but because I used it to really mean "gay" and not stupid, I think I'm fine.

Baraka_Guru

The LGBT community have been dealing with these kinds of language issues for years. They work actively to appropriate language where they see fit. Some examples of terms they use casually amongst themselves include queer, dyke, and fag. They seem to take what was originally meant to be derogatory and thought: "Well, hey, that's what we are. We're homosexual. Thanks for the words."

In terms of the "gay" usage amongst young people (well, I suppose older people too), it is more of an issue of it being used in a different sense. Originally "fag," "queer," and "dyke" were meant as derogatory tags on people simply to point out their gayness and the fact they were different...Other...wrong....not-straight...going to hell, whatever.

The use we see with "that is so gay," however, has a meaning that hints at "That really sucks," "That is so bad," "That is so unworthy," "That is crap." This is quite different when you think about it.

They've moved from "Gay people are different from us, and so we will make up ways to point that out in a negative connotation to deride them" to "Gayness is bad and wrong and I don't like it, and its a great way to describe other things that are bad and wrong and I don't like."

This is the difference.

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thespian86

It's a generational issue. We are moving out of a generation that is less accepting of homosexuality, and into one that does. We are having kids now, who will be raised to see the difference between gay and straight behavior, but not label it as negative or positive.

I can say that I hate hanging out with queens. They drive me nuts and it is because they are flamboyant and over the top and catty which doesn't jive well with my down to earth, introspective vibe. I don't hate hanging out with them because they have sex with men. My point is that we need to make sure it's okay to dislike a characteristic in people that is often equated with different minorities. I'm completely comfortable with queer theatre, gay and lesbian art, opinion and lifestyle but I don't like hanging out with Queens; that doesn't make me homophobic in the least.

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Zeraph

Am I the only one that sees gay, queer, and faggot as their original usage? 'Happy,' 'odd,' and 'bundle' respectively. Why does the "gay" community even still associate themselves with the word?

I've always seen the evolution of the slur "gay" in mirrored with words like "badass" that have the opposite meaning of their origin because apparently being ironic is "cool." In other words most people I've heard use it have never meant it as a slight toward homosexuals.

There will always be slurs, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Shauk

my stance on this hasn't changed since the last go around. It's all about context.

I'm going to take my rl experience and rank it up there above this knee jerk propaganda.

I have 3 gay friends, 2 ex roomates who were gay and I find it no suprise that 100% of them don't give a rats ass about people who say "that's so gay"

hell, my current roommate is hilarious cuz he totally mocks social convention and the nicey touchy policital correctness movement (which c'mon, is so 90's right?) he generally calls people up, or even me by going "hey faggot, lets got get some food!"

and im like "I don't wanna eat your gay food, i'll get aids"

we just realize how silly it is I guess. But we're good friends. *shrug*

my tongue doesn't feel the need to walk on eggshells to defend the sensibilities of people who can't unclench their buttocks long enough to realize that not everything is intended, in context, to belittle and insult them.

thespian86

Yes, I'm happy to see people shrugging the PC and "Everyone Is Special" movement now. It defeated my whole generation.

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EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

tisonlyi

Language changes over time, "Gay" is a great example.

50 years ago? Happy/A proper name.
30 years ago? Homosexual. Derrogative.
15 years ago? Homosexual. Positive.
last 3-5 years? meaning 'bad' or 'not normal' of some sort.

It's a fad. Storm, meet Teacup. It'll be over before you know it.

I might add that a word taken out of its context is meaningless.

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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

squeeeb

so i guess saying "that's gay and fagtarded" is really really wrong then?

how about queer? is that offensive? a bunch of people marching in the street yelling "we're here, we're strange, of a questionable nature or character, and suspicious!" seems rather absurd to me, but if they want to be proud of that, rock on.

i just do not see it. i really really don't. just because a group of people use a word to describe themselves doesn't give them total rights over that word. gay means happy. gay means homosexual. gay means Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room. it means given to social pleasures, it means dissolute; licentious.

i think dissolute and licentious are pejoratives, right? hmmm...... so i cannot use a word, that could already be taken as a pejorative, in a pejorative sense? even when it has nothing to do whatsoever with the group of people who claim it as their own and in no way is a reflection of that group at all?

it's ok when it works in reverse though. bad used to mean not good. now it means awesome. "that's a bad motorscooter!"

its just crazy how language evolves and changes.

"so there," i ejaculated, right in his face.

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onward to mayhem!

Shauk

yea that's pretty much it, context is king.

I'm not running around trying to state/imply that gay people don't deserve rights or equality.

I just think that trying to change the usage of a word that you never even had claim to to begin with (gay) is a pointless waste of time in the grand scheme of things.

that word doesn't "belong" to anyone, so laying down "the law" in telling people what they can and cannot say is futile. Well if not futile, then presumptuous. Since it appears some people buy in to this.

squeeeb

you hang out with ruling royalty?

do you know Queen Margarethe II of denmark? or Queen Beatrix of the netherlands?

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onward to mayhem!

dd3953

i could care less, because context is king. i know the difference between fighting words and joking words. and if 'gay' is a fighting word, that some how taken away, it will only be replaced with another fighting word. the cycle never ends. people like to fight.

i use whatever words i feel will best communicate what i am trying to say. if that offends someone, then i try to remember not to use those words around them (sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't).

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Cynthetiq

well apparently Perez Hilton cannot make good to those within the community he belongs for using the word faggot. this doesn't help clear it up at all for me....

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mrklixx

So if one says "Perez Hilton is so gay", does that cover it?

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SabrinaFair

This is a pet peeve of mine. I don't correct other people's language most of the time, but I will in my own home if someone says, "That's so gay" in a pejorative manner. It's caused spats between myself and friends/significant others, but I find it extremely bothersome. I'm not one to easily get outraged by little things--in fact, I often find myself suffering from "outrage fatigue." I hang out with guys a lot, so I'm definitely not thin-skinned when it comes to language, and use "motherfucker" and "bastard" as terms of endearment. My best friend and I often call each other, "slut" with affection. But this is one of those things that just bugs me. Maybe it's my interest in linguistics....maybe it's because I'm a protective big sister of a gay man. Whatever the reason, I just don't like it.

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tisonlyi

What the hell did Perez Hilton do?

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Cynthetiq

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

mrklixx

What a wordsmith that Perez is.

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ring

Homosexuality is barely tolerated in our society as it is. (my society, of north america)

In countries with a very strong patriarchal or religious influence,
it's very Taboo.

The disparaging/ nervous jesting/ phobic responses to anything 'homothexual'
is apparent here at TFP as well. (yes the lisp was on purpose)

Fags are the new niggers. (read: fair game)

Women here in north america used to be kinda like niggers,
you know... bartered property.

Mr's-------------meant: Property of Mr.

Many many corners of this round planet, are still filled
with a way of thinking that astounds.

It is a good thing for us to talk to each other about tolerance.

I had a dream about a tribal shamanic queen guy riding on a horse backwards.

No wait---that was a movie.

I'm such a thang.

percy

I think people say things like, 'That's so gay,' as more a buzz phrase to be cool or to classify something not in the context of gay, but for instance refering to gay as stupid, lame, boring,..etc, while not associating homesexuality with those adjectives.

Either way, some people associate it innocently as stated or perjoratively, bringing it into the fray as a dig a homosexuality. Much like those who don't get offended by it while others put it on a pedestal to promote an agenda.

Cynthetiq

Umm, no. Mrs. is a a form of Mistress the feminine of Master, or Mister.

I contend that people are ignornant to words, language, and vocabulary. Instead of educating these people to not be offended by the correct usage of the word, the person lost their job. Shame really.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Charlatan

It's not a matter of whether or not the user of "that's so gay" intends to be disparaging of homosexuals. The simple meaning of the words is that something is being disparaged by its association with being homosexual (i.e. gay).

It's generally frowned upon for people to equate those who are cheap with the money with being Jewish. For example, Carl doesn't want to help pay for a round of beers. His friend says, "Carl, don't be so Jewish."

I can remember this being a common thing people would say when I was growing up. We don't say it so much anymore. We don't use it because we are not so ignorant as to see that the association between Jews and being cheap is at best rude and at worst horribly offensive.

Using "gay" as a pejorative is a similar thing.

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squeeeb

i see your point, and i can almost kind of agree with you.

except there is only one meaning for Jewish, it is used to denote a specific group. "gay" however, has different meanings. it meant something else entirely before a group of homosexuals claimed it as their own. they took the word and changed its meaning, which is cool, that's the beauty of english.


and, for what it's worth, when i say something is "gay" i don't mean bad, inferior, stupid. i just mean its not cool.

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onward to mayhem!

ring

Our family is of Scot heritage.

There was a saying bandied about, concerning Scots and nickels,
and something about squeezing...stuff I overheard as a fledgling. (1965)

For all time, many words have been adopted for both nefarious and benevolent
reasons.

Secret handshake/wink winks:
Excluding, to include those who will not kill you.
Including, to exclude those you want to kill.

or the tangled mirror of the above.

I would never knowingly use a term to purposely offend.

But I may be ignorant of some the newer lingo,
because of its quicksilver nature.

Crochet Hook - still means just a crochet hook, so far, right?

I have yet to hear one of these salad-day lads and lasses,
use the term 'that's so gay', other than an insult.

squeeeb

gee, i don't know where you live, but come out to redneck colorado where i live. gays everywhere. in fact, the only bar i hang out in, turns out is supposedly a gay bar. (perhaps that's why i can't pick up chicks there).

just out of curiosity....can you vote? can you go into any restaurant or store and get served? how exactly are you barely tolerated? perhaps i don't see it because we have gay people all over the town and no one seems to care.

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ring

So the term 'gay' (for you) qualifies as a more tepid form of disapproval perhaps.

Nuances are a slippery fine time, yes?

---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

squeeb.

anecdotal regional experiences are going to vary wildly.

My gender preference has no bearing upon witnessing intolerance/hatred/fear.
but having lived in San Francisco, CA
Philadelphia, PA
San Diego, CA
Newport News, Virginia,
Boulder, Colorado,
Tucson, Arizona,
and numerous bucolic isolated midwestern locales,
has provided a tasty sampling of our country's massive diversity.


So please sir, what is your definition of a redneck then?

Mine is a tangled complicated surface description.
I will admit, that sometimes I am too tired, lazy, confused, or just complacent with the niche,
to hone my thoughts further.

Baraka_Guru

Kids who say it aren't stupid. They know there is a current dominant meaning of gay, and that's "homosexual." When a kid says, "That's so gay," I can only assume, at worst, he kinda means: "That's like a homosexual (which is something I like to ridicule...because faggots are funny and below me... fucking queers....)." Tell me if it's otherwise.

Think of other uses: "That video game is so fucking gay," "The Cubs are fucking gay," "[Your favourite band] is fucking gay."

Does this not mean there is something fundamentally "wrong" with these things? They don't live up to a standard? They're lame? I think there is a tie between this meaning of gay, and the meaning most of us know, which is "homosexual." How can there not be? It's far too coincidental for it to be otherwise.

If you know the dominant meaning of gay today is "homosexual," would you be saying being gay isn't cool?

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

squeeeb

Baraka -

i can't speak for kids today, but i do know my daughter uses it all the time, even with her gay friends.

like me, when she uses it, she isn't thinking about it also meaning homosexual. yeah, we both know the dominant meaning of gay is homosexual, but when we say "that is so gay" we mean it in a totally different way, not related to homosexuality at all. we are not thinking "that is substandard and stupid and distasteful like a homosexual is." it's a completely different word totally divorced from homosexuality when i or my daughter use it in the "that's gay" context.

i think the majority of people who say "that is gay" isn't equating it with being homosexual.

being gay isn't any cooler or not cooler than not being gay. being gay just means you are attracted to the same gender. that's all "gay" means in that usage.

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Xerxys

I get what you're saying. "gay" simply means what you want it to at the time. I'm all for that ... afterall, isn't that where 'context' falls in?

If were going to use linguistics (sp?) perhaps we should consider other languages like Italian, Spanish, Arabic etc etc etc, in general, they all have few words that have a lot of meanings but their comprehension falls under the sentence structure, definition and use. Where as in English, French, etc etc etc we have many words that mean the same things ... but to asighn a definitive purpose to them requires context as well as structure.

That said, we have intentions in a statement such as the way MSD outlighned earlier. The inflection in which a word was said can or cannot be assighned to the general use of the abusive term.

Ultimately, An insult is in the ear of the listener.

Cynthetiq

xerx this is why I do not like the english language. it's important to understand that when words have one single meaning, it's hard to misunderstand what someone has said to you. when the worlds have many meanings.... well do you reminds me of Romeo and Juliet

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Charlatan

This is rarely the case.

The use of "that's so gay" is, in my opinion, just another example of the lazy use of language. It originally stemmed from homosexual = negative. It has since shifted through overuse into a seemingly benign meaning. But the original meant and intent still lingers and it will do so until homosexuals ceased to be called gay.

To be clear, the insult isn't only in the ear of the listener but also in the lazy, inconsiderate use of language by the speaker.

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Cynthetiq

and there's no burden of that on the listener like the use of the word niggardly?

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Charlatan

That's why I said, "the insult isn't only in the ear of the listener."

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Cynthetiq

:P I'm raiding and I'm tired tha's my excuse, your adverbs seemed to be more on the speaker than an even playing field.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

cellophanedeity

I agree whole heartedly with Charlatan.

Even without intent to offend, the casual connection between "gay" and "not cool" is offensive and ignorant. I'm kind of gay, and I'm awesome.

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Charlatan

That part was intentional. I do believe that it's not an evenly weighted thing. The majority of the onus is on the speaker (a ratio that is constantly in flux so don't ask me to quantify).

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Reese

Ghey is my favorite 4 letter word. I can't defend it. Hell, I tried.

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Iliftrocks

Maybe the people who chose a common word to mean something totally different than intended should just give up being upset when people use the friggin word. That's what makes it so "gay". While I don't use the phrase, with the previous exception, I don't have any sympathy for those who get offended. You can't just adopt a word and make it yours and erase the ability of the speakers of the language from using it any damn way they want. Heck, the homosexuals that started using it did no less. Why couldn't they just say that they were homosexual and proud? There's no misinterpretation of homosexual right?

May you be gay and merry throughout your day.

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tisonlyi

The English language is extremely lazy/wanting to use less to say more and always has been.

Phrasal verbs, contractions, etc, etc... It is as it is. (it's as it is)

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--