Manic_Skafe

This is really quite silly but do you have proof of such proclamations?

It's been well said by others already, but you can't remove an issue from it's context and also discuss it fairly. Rarely ever do I listen to the radio or watch the news but I certainly do watch movies and go out in public - I just can't so easily pretend to have my finger to the pulse of an entire race of people simply through whatever I've learned from the media and my own experiences.

There's obviously more to all of this than you care to think about. Why is that?

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essendoubleop

I'd like to interject here and say that this is a great topic, and a great discussion. As a recent graduate from a university where I took many classes where we were purportedly allowed to discuss any topic in a free and safe environment, race was the one topic that was firmly taboo, and dogmatic at that. I find it ironic that this is the probably the most important topic of our times (globalization and the fusion of cultures from around the world) and we are shackled by the events of a previous world. I do, however, think the discussion of race is a privilege that can't be shared by all. Someone who has no contact with those outside their own immediate culture and cocoon may be hindered by a world of stereotypes and fallacies from the a world that was full of isolation and is increasingly becoming irrelevant.

This is part of why I think the discussion of race is such a tricky subject. Not everybody knows exactly where they stand as far as understanding their own familiarity with people from different backgrounds and racess in comparison with others from their own in-group, and until people start opening up and are willing to even talk about race (let alone walking through the gauntlet of up-to-date political correctness), little progress can be made.

I've been impressed with the discussion so far. I'm certainly not an expert on racial relations (more knowledgeable about human psychology in general and genetics), though I appreciate discourse on a "taboo" subject.

levite

For me, I think the difference between calling black people "niggers" or suchlike, versus, for example, people calling me a kike, or using other similar anti-Semitic language, is that while I might be rather offended, I am probably most likely to assume that the user of the slur is just ignorant; and based on my prior experience with such, I would be right a majority of the time. The majority of people in America who use anti-Semitic language or stereotypes don't even realize it's what they are: they're ignorant about Jews, and are usually very amenable to being corrected, and once educated, are generally ashamed at their own previous ignorance. You just don't find a large number of really hardcore, vitriolic, in-your-face anti-Semites in America these days, especially not in the cities.

On the other hand, racism is alive and well. Just because we have a black president doesn't mean that there aren't more racist fucks out there than we can imagine, who use the word "nigger" with casual indifference amongst their white friends, who are happy to laugh at the occasional "nigger" and "coon" jokes, who really, genuinely don't believe black people are equal to white people-- whatever the law may say-- and if you asked them, they would certainly not want their daughters to marry one of "them." These aren't people who would put on sheets and go out lynching, or even necessarily people who would snub a black co-worker at the office Christmas party. They are parlor racists, and they flourish the way that genteel anti-Semites flourished in 19th century Europe: which is to say, they infest the country like lice, bourgeoning everywhere.

But my point is this: I can feel free to take or leave being offended at anti-Semitic remarks in this country, because the US has little history of institutionalized anti-Semitism, and what exists today is far-flung and little tolerated. Most of us Jews have a certain remove from it.

But a black person in America lives at the ebb tide of a hideous history of institutionalized racism and subjugation, a tide that, if lessened, is nonetheless still washing around them. We white people can often little conceive this, because to us, it's history. It's something we read about in books, and watch documentaries about on the History channel. But to black folks, it's the stories they've heard growing up from their parents, grandparents, sometimes even great-grandparents. And it combines with the constant little annoying experiences of being given the eye by mall cops, or getting pulled over for DWB, losing out on jobs or opportunities to non-black people; or being presumed a drug user, or a thief, or a pursuer of white women; or being presumed good at sports, bad in the classroom, or presumed sexually exotic; or being treated condescendingly, patronizingly, or being told one should be "grateful." All of these things are routinely part of the lives of black people. They are wrong, and they are the little poison fruits that are borne on the ancient and hard-fought weed of racism. All that history, all that wrongness, all that poison is heard by black people in the utterance by non-blacks of the word "nigger."

Is it sensible that black people claim the word amongst themselves as a watchword? No. But what emerges from cultural trauma does not have to be rational. I don't pretend to understand the phenomenon, and I know my friends and I don't go around saying "Hey, what's up, kike?" On the other hand, I have a close friend in rabbinical school who tells shockingly offensive Holocaust jokes, and I laugh like hell at them, to just about the exact opposite degree that I would be furious if I ever heard a non-Jew crack those jokes.

I think this is one of those things about which we just have to respect each other's cultural peculiarities.

That said, I do think this discussion is a healthy thing!

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tisonlyi

If a racist fuck, snears at a black person from a position of power (say as part of a leering group) and throws in 'spearchucker' with added emphasis, then i'd say it's just as bad as 'nigger'.

It's the intention to insult and what is being insulted (the fibre of your being as well as your race's being vs you having poor vision with regard to "four eyes") that causes offence.

IMHO.

As for a continuum of offensiveness, it's always going to be dependent on the person.

Myself, I'm much more likely to be offended by 'polite' language said with a snear than any disposable, but insulting word.

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ring

Bravo, tisonlyi, Bravo.

Well said.

Even the snear, without the words.
It could be the body positioning,
and the hate vibes emanating off the hater,
that can, and do speak volumes.

Zenturian

I am of the opionion that only niggers say nigger these days. When ever I hear that word, I look around and its being said by the most ill mannered blacks. I have yet to here the word utterd by well behaved people of any color. I actually find the the whole controversy hilarious, as the world is pretty much only used by the very people who would go bannas if anyone else used it.

Xerxys

^^ Yes, yes, yes!! Only niggers say nigger with the insulting intentions. I am short of words for this thread because it is my experience that very many people don't have a legitimate feeling about the entire issue either way EXCEPT when things don't go their way.

Ananas

Maybe we should all have a John Howard Griffin experience and then revisit this topic.

It may be that those looking from the outside can only apply an intellectualized analysis of the hurt, anger, degradation such words cause to the targeted groups. Then, on the other hand, outsiders may not understand the psychology of taking ownership of a pejorative term in order to lessen the meaning and denigration of a word.

Bottom line is that the original intent of the word was to designate a certain group of people, and by association remove them from the circle of humanity (it was easier to enslave someone who you didn't believe was human). It continued after slavery because people still wanted to believe that former slaves were still less than human, less American, so deserved less than equal treatment.

As a social experiment, the descendants of slaves/former slaves should start pasting confederate flags in their car windows and joining KKK organizations.

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dippin

Neither of you have been in the south, then.





Now, with regards to the topic at hand, it is amazing to me how people want to completely ignore context.


Nigger, the word, comes from the Portuguese word negro. The Portuguese ran the slave trade, so there is no question as to how the word nigger entered the English language. It was a word used to dehumanize African slaves. Dehumanize often in quite literal ways, such as not counting as a full person in the census, etc. As slavery came to pass, racists clang on to the word to reaffirm the status of less than human of blacks in society.
Eventually, blacks started coopting the word, as many discriminated groups do, as a way of empowering themselves.


Now, a word by itself cannot offend anyone. You say nigger to a poor Angolan boy who never heard it before and he wont care. But the fact is that the word is still being used with the intent to offend and dehumanize others in the US. The fact that it is sometimes used in a non-offensive or non-aggressive manner doesn't change that fact. When a white person uses the word nigger as an insult against a black person, that white person is not simply using the word as any other insult, but is using it precisely because of the historical context of the use of that word.

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

The difference between calling someone a dumbass and someone a nigger is that nigger is only offensive because it comes with quite a few centuries worth of slavery and dehumanization. Nigger as a word makes no reference to someone's mental ability (like dumbass) or anything else. There is no way nigger can be used with the intent to offend and not be racist, because that is really all there is to the word: a word that contains the connotation that blacks are less than human.

Before you come back with the "but blacks use it too" argument, the key difference is that blacks have tried to coopt the word to lessen its blow, and whenever they use it on each other, nigger is never the "punchline" of an insult. They never yell "nigger" in isolation at each other, nor will you hear "you're a nigger" said in that way.

essendoubleop

This caused me to laugh out loud. I'm presuming you did this intentionally, but if not...

Which literally means "black."

dippin

Among other things, but it also means dark or shadowy. Which again points to the importance of context, so I don't get why you are laughing out loud.

Let me go even further here: In Brazil and Lusophone Africa, the word Negro is actually the preferred term of reference for blacks as an ethnic group. That is so not because of some magical quality of the word, but because of historical context. Preto (which means Black too, but is more used on day to day life to refer to the color) was the word with the dehumanizing context in Brazil, Angola and elsewhere, so "preto" is the offensive reference term over there, and not negro.

So much so that the "Black Consciousness Movement" from South Africa was translated as Movimento da Consciencia Negra in Brazil.


So all of this really just reinforces my previous point, and as such I don't see what is so funny about it.

Xerxys

Errr, dippin, In my earlier post, I said it was my experience. The black community DO use the word nigger (historical content et al) to dehumanize and INSULT each other. Do some of the basest of the white community do this too? Of course they do ...

I am in the capital city of NC and I have little contact with the outskirts of the rural areas. Here, my experience of racial slurs is they are often used by blacks against blacks themselves. A black person will readily call a white person, "my nigga" in friendly terms and insult a fellow black person WITH THE SAME DAMN WORD!!

dippin

I have never seen any situation where black people used nigger as the insult itself. Part of sentences that are used in confrontations, yes, but Ive never seen or can imagine a situation where a black person simply yells "nigger" to another, or simply says "you're a nigger."

In any case, again context means the world. A black person using that word will never have the same meaning as a white person. In any case, the fact that black people have appropriated the word among themselves is really not enough to make the original intent of the word non-racist.

Baraka_Guru

it's been said in some capacity already, but much of the N-word is about reappropration of language. It happened in the gay community as well.

Dyke and faggot were derogatory labels applied to homosexual women and men respectively. The gay community have reappropriated these words completely. Now it is so common, many don't even think of the original sense of the word. We talk about dyke culture, dyke moms, etc. They say things like, "I'm meeting a fag friend of mine for dinner." They took the negative power directed at them, and they made it their own.

The problem with nigger is that the history is longer and more ingrained on the wider culture, and the connotation is far heavier. But this doesn't mean that black culture hasn't reappropriated the word for its own use; it's just that the word remains largely political.

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essendoubleop

Because you were saying how wrong it was for people from Portugal to call them black, then you refer to them as blacks four times after that. I understand the point of context, and agree, the word carries a massive amount of weight in one region of the world while the same word translated is considered the politically correct term. When you go around the world and that same explosive word has wildly varying levels of connotations, it reaches a level of absurdity. I'm not sure if that diminishes the edge it has in America because, as stated, the context, but understanding a more encompassing view on its history puts it in perspective somewhat.

cellophanedeity

Reclaiming words takes away some of the negative power. Remember in the 90's when it was suddenly cool for women to wear shirts and jewelry with "bitch" on it? That was women deciding that if people were going to call them "bitch," then they would too, because whatever they were they were proud of it.

I can't stop you from calling me a dyke, but I can take the word and make it into something to be proud of. I'm a dyke! I fuck women! I'm BRILLIANT. Dykes are awesome!"

You eventually have to stop fighting ideology by asking people to stop calling you "bad words." You eventually need to change the connotation of the words themselves by embracing them. Seems crazy, but look how well it's done with the queer-fag-dyke community.

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squeeeb

damn, i wanna be a dyke.

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dippin

In the US, black has been one of the acceptable terms. In Brazil, the Azores, etc. Negro is one of the acceptable words. It's been that way not because of some magic quality of the sound, but because of how it's been used historically. I really don't see how you can miss that when the point is precisely that historical context matters. Words don't have power by themselves, it is the social context that gives them their meaning.

cellophanedeity

See, the word "dyke" can now have positive meaning too!

(mind you, I'm not really a lesbian. I'm a bi-slut, another reclaimed word.)

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squeeeb

when did it have a negative meaning? really, i'm 40 fucking years old, all my life i thought dyke just meant lesbian.

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cellophanedeity

As Wiki suggests:
I've just heard too many men use the word "dyke" in an intensely negative way.

Also, I wouldn't be called anything worse than "caker" or "heathen" for my ethnic/religious background. There are worse words to call someone, of course, but it's just an example I can directly relate to.

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wooÐs

I believe the politically correct term this year is 'thug' when referring to African American degenerates.

squeeeb

ok, so this is interesting.

what if people took an adjective, say for example "tall" and started using it pejoratively.

that movie was tall. don't be so tall. that chick is so tall.


would all the tall people suddenly be offended?

*i don't mean to mesh this thread with the "that's so gay" thread or hijack this thread.

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cellophanedeity

If "tall" was something that was regarded as something "inferior to standard" then maybe. But yes, we should probably move over to "That's So Gay" if we want to continue.

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jewels

Absolutely. You can't say words are just words and that people need to chill. That's bullshit. Words have meanings and people need to consider others' experiences before they fling them around.

Utilizing these slurs inadvertently causes others to continue using them. ("Well, if Joe uses it, I can too.") Let's expand our vocabulary and find words that mean what we want to say and utilize those instead.

Labels suck. Using slurs as labels and keeping them in perpetual motion is even worse.

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dlish

damn right! part of the reason why i'm glad you're back

ive been subjected to labels and racist comments, so have my family members, and my parents when they migrated to australia, who were one of the first ethics in the area. we were called "wogs" and "dago's", and still do, thought not to the extent when my parents first stepped foot in the early seventies.

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Xerxys

I honestly don't get what your saying here. It's alright for a black person to say something like ... "that motherfucking nigger better watch his tongue" than it is for a white person? What, history makes it alright? Since when do two wrongs make a right, or two same kinds of infractions are wrong on different levels? The sentence very clearly expresses distaste in the person who is employing the use of the word. Are you saying that a white person saying the exact same thing with the exact same inflection carries heavier meaning?

MSD

The term doesn't exist in isolation. It has centuries of meaning behind it. Yes, a white person saying it carries heavier meaning than a black person.

Xerxys

^^ Dude, I'm sorry but I may have mentioned earlier I am illiterate.

If it doesn't exist in isolation then wouldn't that mean it's not alright to say it at all? Black or white?

dippin

First of all, notice that the n word, by itself, is not the insult there. That in the first place makes it different, and makes it explicit that the usage is completely different.

The second difference is that a black person appropriating that term to refer to another one, and using it in that entirely different context, has a different meaning than a white person using the n word as the insult itself, a word that is only offensive because of its history of being used by whites to deny the basic humanity of blacks. In one instance it is a throwaway insult as appropriated by those who it is normally used against, in the other it is an insult that has been systematically used for centuries to dehumanize an entire group of people.

mrklixx

But, if a homosexual man calls a heterosexual (as far as we know) man a faggot, in anger, then the "homosexual community" gets all in an uproar.

Which brings me to a question. If a black celebrity were to call a caucasian celebrity a nigger, in anger, do you think the "black community" would be upset? Would it bother you (you=TFP members)?

Now another question.

I was acquainted with a caucasian man that was very fond of using the phrase "no to bad for a white man/woman" For example, his wife would cook dinner, and after he was done eating, he would say "Mmmm, not to bad, for a white woman." I heard this so much, in fact, that I found myself using the phrase occasionally. So my question is, would this be offensive in mixed racial company, or to the overly PC?

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jewels

The black community as a whole might not be upset, but there are quite a few that would agree with me that nobody should be using it. These types of slurs need to be erased from our culture. I know I don't speak for all TFPers, but it bothers me immensely and it SHOULD bother the entire black community. The problem is that it's been accepted as a way to poke fun at one another, or put down others even within the black community. In order to move on from stereotypes and labeling, those words have to go.

Sigh. Idealism isn't bliss.

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FelixP

Dippin, I can't help but think that you've never been in a mostly black, lower class setting. Black people are among the MOST rascist people you will ever meet. I can't tell you how many times I've heard black people make fun of other black people for being "too dark". Comments like, "Go back to africa nigga" or "That bitch be so dark she nasty", etc. So it's not just a case of black people trying to remove some of the hurt from the word.

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dippin

Im from Brazil and I live in Atlanta, and I have to go pretty much everywhere as my job in a public policy evaluation company requires, so I think you assumed wrong.

No doubt there is racism in the African American community. But that neither justifies or softens white racism.

Xerxys

Is that what you feel we might be doing? Justifying racism of ANY sort? This is the 21st century and I shall never tire of saying that. All things are equal (at least when it comes to this case) and white CANNOT POSSIBLY be worse than black racism.

dippin

what is the result of white racism and of black racism, and how widespread is each? How many whites have been killed, wrongfully convicted, fired or denied raises by the color of their skin?

Xerxys

The result of white racism is greater than that of black racism. This is in the past. Not anymore though. I believe we now live in a world of equal opportunity.

Now, the effect of black racism (>>against fellow blacks) is still ongoing. In fact, it has been going on for so long that it's going to be unique in itself. I don't mean it will rival the past atrocities committed by the racists against blacks, I don't think it is possible ... but it is/will be distastefully monumental.

dippin

the idea that racism is a thing of the past is a total myth not borne out of any evidence. Take the fact that even though drug usage across races is virtually the same, blacks are about 2.8 to 5.5 times more likely to be arrested and given jail time for it (we are talking simple possession, not possession with intent to distribute or anything like that.).

Take the fact that virtually every case of unwarranted police shootings had African American victims, and that black suspects are more than 6 times more likely to be killed by the police than white suspects, and that almost every major metropolitan area in the nation has had a recent case where the police killed unarmed, passive African Americans (including a case in Georgia where a 92 year old woman was shot and then framed by cops in order to avoid blame). Or how about the fact that even when controlling for education levels, industry type, education and experience blacks still experience higher unemployment levels and lower income? How about the "controversy" over the removal of the confederate flag from the Georgia state flag?


Just because the era of Jim Crow has ended, it doesn't mean that racism has.

guy44

Is this a joke? I don't mean to be rude, but that's a ridiculous idea.

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Manic_Skafe

While this thread has gone far off topic, I'd appreciate it if you could explain what this means as I can't make heads or tails of it. What are you talking about?

Also, leaving race out of the matter entirely, one doesn't have to look to hard to see significant differences in basic level opportunities between the well off and the poor. The idea that we live in a world of entirely equal opportunity is baseless and nonsensical at best.

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