Kids are Brain Dead, Education is failing. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mr. Mojo · 07-03-2003, 08:25 AM

Education Conference Focuses on History
Wed Jul 2, 4:45 PM ET Add Politics - AP to My Yahoo!

By BEN FELLER, AP Education Writer

NEW ORLEANS - Apparently the truths in the Declaration of Independence aren't so self-evident.

When Rep. Roger Wicker (news, bio, voting record) asked high school seniors in his Mississippi district to name some unalienable rights, he got silence. So the Republican congressman gave the advanced-placement history students some help.

"Among these are life," Wicker said, "and...."

"Death?" one student said. So much for liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

"It's not so much that they don't know the rote phrases and facts," said Wicker, the sponsor of a House bill to improve civics instruction. "It just demonstrates a real gap in the education of young Americans."

The problem is on the minds of social studies teachers here at the National Education Association conference, where an original copy of the Declaration of Independence is on display. The classroom challenge is not only to make government and history interesting, but to keep students from becoming alarmingly disengaged.

"If our kids walk out of our school systems without an understanding of democracy, democracy will cease," said Dakota Draper, an eighth-grade history teacher in North Dakota. "That's a scary thing."

The nation's civics struggle has even become a late-night staple for Jay Leno (news - Y! TV), who scores laughs showing how people offer ridiculous answers to simple questions.

But educators don't think it's funny. In daily life, it's a lack of understanding about government that prompts people to call Congress when they want the dog catcher, or to complain to a local council member about a federal tax change. Over time, it can add up to disenfranchised and apathetic citizens.

So teachers try to find a way to make history contemporary, to make a civics lesson out of a struggle students care about. Like fighting for a skateboard park or the right to wear hats in school. In short: any lesson they'll take with them.

"I always tell my students: If I see you in the grocery store five years from now, I will not measure my success on can you tell me Hamilton's financial plan, but can you tell me if you voted," Meredith Elliott, an American studies teacher in Utah, said during a round-table discussion at the NEA convention. "If you answer yes, then I've succeeded as a teacher."

Beth Ludeman, a government and history teacher in Wisconsin, said: "I'm much less concerned about a test at any given point as I am making sure the kids I work with have the opportunity to extend those skills through their lifetime. And I've seen them do some pretty phenomenal things with very limited resources."

Still, scores on the nation's benchmark tests might astound the country's founders.

About one third of students in fourth, eighth and 12th grade could not even show a basic understanding of civics at their grade level, according to the last National Assessment of Educational Progress on the subject in 1998.

The same was true for fourth-graders and eighth-graders in U.S. history in 2001; high school seniors fared even worse, with nearly six in 10 below "basic," meaning they lack even partial mastery of fundamental skills.

Some examples:

_ Almost three out of four fourth-graders could not name which part of government passes laws. Most students thought it was the president. (It's Congress.)

_ About three out of four fourth-graders knew that July 4 celebrates the Declaration of Independence. But one in four thought it marked the end of the Civil War, the arrival of the Pilgrims or the start of the woman's right to vote.

_ More than half of 12th-graders, asked to pick a U.S. ally in World War II from a list of countries, thought the answer was Italy, Germany or Japan. (The correct answer was the Soviet Union.)

The sobering results have prompted calls for action.

President Bush (news - web sites) launched a national effort last year to improve civics education, pointing to embarrassing student stumbles over the Pledge of Allegiance and the Gettysburg Address. The Senate has passed a bill to improve civics training for teachers and students, the same idea Wicker is pushing in the House.

Meanwhile, state lawmakers are showing more interest in beefing up a civics curriculum. Such courses typically are offered too infrequently in schools and aren't comprehensive, said Charles Quigley, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Civic Education.

"We tend to focus on the problem, and the problem is fairly extensive," Quigley said. "But we have to recognize there are a lot of people doing very good things in civics and government. Unfortunately, there aren't enough of them."

The key is to incorporate civics lessons in courses throughout the grades, said Cathy Atkinson, a high school social studies teacher in Wisconsin. One idea of hers: ensure student councils are true governments, not social clubs.

"If we could involve the kids more in the decision-making at the school, where they would see immediate impact and the ability to influence, that would put more of the message in them: They can actually do something," she said.

BBtB · 07-03-2003, 09:26 AM

A good book on this subject, 'Lies my teacher told me' by James Loewen. One thing we need to remember on this is its not really the kids fault. History and civic teachers have been slacking off ALOT in the past decade. And even more so the writers of history books and the what not.

sbscout · 07-03-2003, 10:03 AM

in Indiana, the state-required testing does not cover history or science, so guess which subjects get left out until after testing is done????

my kids didn't get their science or social studies books until the 7th week of class - after the ISTEP's were thru...

perhaps it's not just "lazy" teachers...

oh, but I forgot,,, teaching children is an easy job... anyone can do it ~sarcasm~

teachers have to follow the rules set out by the school board...

Stiltzkin · 07-03-2003, 10:10 AM

I shouldn't even get started about this. I'm ignorant as hell, and I'm still way more intelligent and knowledgeable than 90% of my peers. Its sickening. We're all ignorant as hell, just admit it. Don't go around acting like just because you're on TFP that you're not an ignorant fuck, because you are. Its a horrible problem, but its a way of keeping a powerful nation strong. Keep the masses ignorant, so that the government can use the media to easily sway the masses whichever way they want. Most people don't even know that the "War on Iraq" was completely pointless. Everyone thinks we attacked them because they had "weapons of mass destruction" when in fact no signs of such weapons were ever found, by anyone, anywhere, at any time. Didn't Rome do the same thing? Hasn't every major empire done the same shit? Keep their people ignorant as hell? Its the only way to keep a strong nation strong, damn it. Do I need to keep repeating myself? I digress.

Macheath · 07-03-2003, 10:43 AM

I don't know about the deal with second guessing about what would astound the founding fathers here.

I mean, did the founders really anticipate a society where every single person would have to have a certain level of formal education in civics?

I think they more anticipated that people would know freedom and democracy from having to fight for it. Maybe they anticipated strong local social structures where the better educated few would provide trusted counsel on political matters to others in their social sphere.

One thing they perhaps didn't anticipate was social fragmentation at the local level and consolidation of "opinion power" on very complex matters in the hands of a very small, centralized media minority. In this climate, individuals do need to learn formal civics because there is no well educated local counsellor known to them personally who has the resources and trust to protect their interests right up the political food chain.

In this context, the teacher who talked about giving "local" examples of civics (like a skateboard park) wasn't just giving a simple civics analogy but was getting at the heart of civics itself.

krwlz · 07-03-2003, 11:05 AM

I am constantly disgusted by the lack of knowledge shown by my peers.....I guess this study doesnt surprise me in the least.

spectre · 07-03-2003, 01:02 PM

This is beyond sad, it's pathetic. The worst part is that it gives good teachers a bad name. Whenever I try and debate people my own age about history or politics, they either have no clue or say stupid shit like what was quoted in the article.

Wax_off · 07-03-2003, 01:34 PM

Hmmm... Perhaps this is just a generation gap thing. I seriously doubt that kids are less smart than we were, more likely they're being taught things that we don't appreciate and don't understand as valuable. Maybe.

My take on it is that performance in school doesn't neccesarily dictate performance in life. In school I was a serious under-performer. Just barely graduated from high school and dropped out after two years at a community college. But now a decade later, I'm in the top 1% of all wage earners. The skills I learned to make my way in the world diidn't come from school, they came from observations of the world around me. Who's to say kids these days are any different. (although some of them are just total dipshits, but that's always been true.)

juanvaldes · 07-03-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spectre
This is beyond sad, it's pathetic. The worst part is that it gives good teachers a bad name. Whenever I try and debate people my own age about history or politics, they either have no clue or say stupid shit like what was quoted in the article.

Give me my words back!

But it is very true and sad, I don't need to look beyond all the kiddies who pubicly TELL us their age here on TFP.

[Public service] If you see any of these idiots remember to hit the "report post to mods" button. [/Public service]

RaGe2012 · 07-03-2003, 08:19 PM

Well, I don't know if this has anything to do about kids being brain-dead, but here it goes, and tell me if this makes sense...

*ahem*

Kids have NO attention spans whatsoever, I heard it quoted recently that a child's attention span is roughly a half an hour anymore. In this day in age, TV is being substituted for good parenting. WHAT IS THE MOST COMMON LENGTH OF A TV SHOW...duh...30 minutes. Hmmm....

Just something to think about....

The_Dude · 07-03-2003, 08:21 PM

bah, i'm not one of them. i love this stuff

papermachesatan · 07-04-2003, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
bah, i'm not one of them. i love this stuff

same here

cchris · 07-06-2003, 12:04 AM

Kids these days are sharp.
As Adults,we need to be sharper.

07-03-2003, 08:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mr. Mojo Addict Location: NYC	Kids are Brain Dead, Education is failing. Education Conference Focuses on History Wed Jul 2, 4:45 PM ET Add Politics - AP to My Yahoo! By BEN FELLER, AP Education Writer NEW ORLEANS - Apparently the truths in the Declaration of Independence aren't so self-evident. When Rep. Roger Wicker (news, bio, voting record) asked high school seniors in his Mississippi district to name some unalienable rights, he got silence. So the Republican congressman gave the advanced-placement history students some help. "Among these are life," Wicker said, "and...." "Death?" one student said. So much for liberty and the pursuit of happiness. "It's not so much that they don't know the rote phrases and facts," said Wicker, the sponsor of a House bill to improve civics instruction. "It just demonstrates a real gap in the education of young Americans." The problem is on the minds of social studies teachers here at the National Education Association conference, where an original copy of the Declaration of Independence is on display. The classroom challenge is not only to make government and history interesting, but to keep students from becoming alarmingly disengaged. "If our kids walk out of our school systems without an understanding of democracy, democracy will cease," said Dakota Draper, an eighth-grade history teacher in North Dakota. "That's a scary thing." The nation's civics struggle has even become a late-night staple for Jay Leno (news - Y! TV), who scores laughs showing how people offer ridiculous answers to simple questions. But educators don't think it's funny. In daily life, it's a lack of understanding about government that prompts people to call Congress when they want the dog catcher, or to complain to a local council member about a federal tax change. Over time, it can add up to disenfranchised and apathetic citizens. So teachers try to find a way to make history contemporary, to make a civics lesson out of a struggle students care about. Like fighting for a skateboard park or the right to wear hats in school. In short: any lesson they'll take with them. "I always tell my students: If I see you in the grocery store five years from now, I will not measure my success on can you tell me Hamilton's financial plan, but can you tell me if you voted," Meredith Elliott, an American studies teacher in Utah, said during a round-table discussion at the NEA convention. "If you answer yes, then I've succeeded as a teacher." Beth Ludeman, a government and history teacher in Wisconsin, said: "I'm much less concerned about a test at any given point as I am making sure the kids I work with have the opportunity to extend those skills through their lifetime. And I've seen them do some pretty phenomenal things with very limited resources." Still, scores on the nation's benchmark tests might astound the country's founders. About one third of students in fourth, eighth and 12th grade could not even show a basic understanding of civics at their grade level, according to the last National Assessment of Educational Progress on the subject in 1998. The same was true for fourth-graders and eighth-graders in U.S. history in 2001; high school seniors fared even worse, with nearly six in 10 below "basic," meaning they lack even partial mastery of fundamental skills. Some examples: _ Almost three out of four fourth-graders could not name which part of government passes laws. Most students thought it was the president. (It's Congress.) _ About three out of four fourth-graders knew that July 4 celebrates the Declaration of Independence. But one in four thought it marked the end of the Civil War, the arrival of the Pilgrims or the start of the woman's right to vote. _ More than half of 12th-graders, asked to pick a U.S. ally in World War II from a list of countries, thought the answer was Italy, Germany or Japan. (The correct answer was the Soviet Union.) The sobering results have prompted calls for action. President Bush (news - web sites) launched a national effort last year to improve civics education, pointing to embarrassing student stumbles over the Pledge of Allegiance and the Gettysburg Address. The Senate has passed a bill to improve civics training for teachers and students, the same idea Wicker is pushing in the House. Meanwhile, state lawmakers are showing more interest in beefing up a civics curriculum. Such courses typically are offered too infrequently in schools and aren't comprehensive, said Charles Quigley, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Civic Education. "We tend to focus on the problem, and the problem is fairly extensive," Quigley said. "But we have to recognize there are a lot of people doing very good things in civics and government. Unfortunately, there aren't enough of them." The key is to incorporate civics lessons in courses throughout the grades, said Cathy Atkinson, a high school social studies teacher in Wisconsin. One idea of hers: ensure student councils are true governments, not social clubs. "If we could involve the kids more in the decision-making at the school, where they would see immediate impact and the ability to influence, that would put more of the message in them: They can actually do something," she said. __________________ When I jerk off I feel good for about twenty seconds and then WHAM it's right back into suicidal depression

07-03-2003, 09:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
BBtB ClerkMan! Location: Tulsa, Ok.	A good book on this subject, 'Lies my teacher told me' by James Loewen. One thing we need to remember on this is its not really the kids fault. History and civic teachers have been slacking off ALOT in the past decade. And even more so the writers of history books and the what not. __________________ Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ... "I would like about three fiddy"

07-03-2003, 10:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
sbscout Disorganized Location: back home again...	in Indiana, the state-required testing does not cover history or science, so guess which subjects get left out until after testing is done???? my kids didn't get their science or social studies books until the 7th week of class - after the ISTEP's were thru... perhaps it's not just "lazy" teachers... oh, but I forgot,,, teaching children is an easy job... anyone can do it ~sarcasm~ teachers have to follow the rules set out by the school board... __________________ Always question authority... it'll keep the bastards on their toes!

07-03-2003, 10:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
Stiltzkin Junkie	I shouldn't even get started about this. I'm ignorant as hell, and I'm still way more intelligent and knowledgeable than 90% of my peers. Its sickening. We're all ignorant as hell, just admit it. Don't go around acting like just because you're on TFP that you're not an ignorant fuck, because you are. Its a horrible problem, but its a way of keeping a powerful nation strong. Keep the masses ignorant, so that the government can use the media to easily sway the masses whichever way they want. Most people don't even know that the "War on Iraq" was completely pointless. Everyone thinks we attacked them because they had "weapons of mass destruction" when in fact no signs of such weapons were ever found, by anyone, anywhere, at any time. Didn't Rome do the same thing? Hasn't every major empire done the same shit? Keep their people ignorant as hell? Its the only way to keep a strong nation strong, damn it. Do I need to keep repeating myself? I digress. __________________ The most important thing in this world is love.

07-03-2003, 01:02 PM	#7 (permalink)
spectre Junkie	This is beyond sad, it's pathetic. The worst part is that it gives good teachers a bad name. Whenever I try and debate people my own age about history or politics, they either have no clue or say stupid shit like what was quoted in the article. __________________ "Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head

07-03-2003, 10:43 AM	#5 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I don't know about the deal with second guessing about what would astound the founding fathers here. I mean, did the founders really anticipate a society where every single person would have to have a certain level of formal education in civics? I think they more anticipated that people would know freedom and democracy from having to fight for it. Maybe they anticipated strong local social structures where the better educated few would provide trusted counsel on political matters to others in their social sphere. One thing they perhaps didn't anticipate was social fragmentation at the local level and consolidation of "opinion power" on very complex matters in the hands of a very small, centralized media minority. In this climate, individuals do need to learn formal civics because there is no well educated local counsellor known to them personally who has the resources and trust to protect their interests right up the political food chain. In this context, the teacher who talked about giving "local" examples of civics (like a skateboard park) wasn't just giving a simple civics analogy but was getting at the heart of civics itself.

07-03-2003, 11:05 AM	#6 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	I am constantly disgusted by the lack of knowledge shown by my peers.....I guess this study doesnt surprise me in the least.

07-03-2003, 01:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
Wax_off No Avatar, No Sig.	Hmmm... Perhaps this is just a generation gap thing. I seriously doubt that kids are less smart than we were, more likely they're being taught things that we don't appreciate and don't understand as valuable. Maybe. My take on it is that performance in school doesn't neccesarily dictate performance in life. In school I was a serious under-performer. Just barely graduated from high school and dropped out after two years at a community college. But now a decade later, I'm in the top 1% of all wage earners. The skills I learned to make my way in the world diidn't come from school, they came from observations of the world around me. Who's to say kids these days are any different. (although some of them are just total dipshits, but that's always been true.)

07-03-2003, 08:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
RaGe2012 Upright Location: New Jersey	Well, I don't know if this has anything to do about kids being brain-dead, but here it goes, and tell me if this makes sense... ahem Kids have NO attention spans whatsoever, I heard it quoted recently that a child's attention span is roughly a half an hour anymore. In this day in age, TV is being substituted for good parenting. WHAT IS THE MOST COMMON LENGTH OF A TV SHOW...duh...30 minutes. Hmmm.... Just something to think about.... __________________ "Yesterday we bowed our heads to kings and bent our necks to emperors. But today we kneel only to truth..." - Kahlil Gibran

07-03-2003, 08:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	bah, i'm not one of them. i love this stuff __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

07-06-2003, 12:04 AM	#13 (permalink)
cchris Junkie Location: Sydney	Kids these days are sharp. As Adults,we need to be sharper. __________________ There's a fine line between participation and mockery