Facebook allows Holocaust deniers a public space - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 05-13-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

View: Holocaust Deniers Gather on Facebook
Source: NYTimes.com
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Holocaust Deniers Gather on Facebook
May 13, 2009, 3:34 pm
Holocaust Deniers Gather on Facebook
By Robert Mackey
Ian Waldie/Getty Images In 2004, a survivor of the Holocaust, Leon Greenman, displayed the number that was stamped on his arm at Auschwitz.

Two bloggers, Michael Arrington of TechCrunch and Brian Cuban of The Cuban Revolution, have been hammering the social-networking site Facebook in recent days for refusing to delete the accounts of groups like “Holohoax” and “Holocaust: A Series of Lies,” which act as forums for Holocaust deniers.

On Tuesday, in a post headlined “Facebook Remains Stubbornly Proud Of Position On Holocaust Denial,” Mr. Arrington wrote:

Facebook is apparently done talking about Holocaust denial for now. A couple of groups that got more out of hand than the rest were taken down, but the company’s policy of permitting the groups on the site remains.

As ABC News reported on Tuesday, Facebook has removed some groups, but stopped short of an outright ban on helping Holocaust deniers to network:

Facebook said it disabled two other controversial groups, “Based on the facts? There was no Holocaust” and “Holocaust is a Holohoax.”

But despite stating that the company finds “Holocaust denial repugnant and ignorant,” it has decided to let three groups continue to exist.

“We have spent considerable time internally discussing the issues of Holocaust denial and have come to the conclusion that the mere statement of denying the holocaust is not a violation of our terms,” Brian Schnitt, a Facebook spokesman, told ABCNews.com in an e-mail.

Schnitt said, however, that in countries where it is illegal to deny the Holocaust, such as Germany, France and Austria, Facebook has decided to ban all Holocaust denial groups.

On Sunday Mr. Cuban wrote in an open letter to Facebook’s chief executive, Mark Zuckerberg, on his blog:

By allowing these groups whether they number 1 or 1,000, Facebook is not promoting open discussion of a controversial issue. It is promoting and encouraging hatred towards ethnic and religious groups, nothing more.

By claiming open discussion as the rationale for allowing these groups to exist, Facebook is playing games with semantics. Facebook is taking form over substance to protect their imaginary subjective corporate line in the sand they have drawn.

Mr. Cuban has also posted on his blog an e-mail exchange he had with employees of Facebook on this issue last year. One of the replies he got from someone on Facebook’s “User Operations” team read, in part:

We take our Terms of Use policy very seriously, and react quickly to take down groups that violate these terms. Specifically, we are sensitive to groups that threaten violence towards people and these groups are taken down. We also remove groups that express hatred towards individuals and groups that are sponsored by recognized terrorist organizations. We do not, however, take down groups that speak out against countries, political entities, or ideas. The goal of these policies is to strike a very delicate balance between giving Facebook users the freedom to express their opinions and beliefs, while also ensuring that individuals and groups of people do not feel threatened or endangered.

In an e-mail interview with a blogger for CNET, Mr. Schnitt, the Facebook spokesman, framed the matter in terms of free speech:

The bottom line is that, of course, we abhor Nazi ideals and find Holocaust denial repulsive and ignorant. However, we believe people have a right to discuss these ideas and we want Facebook to be a place where ideas, even controversial ideas, can be discussed.

Mr. Arrington, who has also ridiculed Facebook for allowing Holocaust deniers to post their opinions on the site, but not allowing some photographs showing women breast-feeding, urged Facebook to take a more black-and-white approach to the issue:

Sure, we can’t shut down the dark places on the Internet where people are free to hate Jews and post pictures of breast feeding mothers. But Facebook can take a stand and say it won’t happen in their back yard. Holocaust denial is hate speech, and it cannot be given a place to take root.

This isn’t a slippery slope, Facebook. It’s evil. Pure evil. Don’t plant a flag on the wrong side of the line. Stand firm against racial and religious hatred, even if you don’t have to. You’ll look back in fifty years and be proud that you did.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz noted that “Facebook was founded by Mark Zuckerberg, a Jewish former Harvard University student.”

Mr. Schnitt told ABC that while some employees of the social-networking service came from families marked by the Holocaust, that was not influencing their decision:

Many of us at Facebook have direct personal connection to the Holocaust, through parents who were forced to flee Europe or relatives who could not escape. We believe in Facebook’s mission that giving people tools to make the world more open is a better way to combat ignorance or deception than censorship, though we recognize that others, including those at the company, disagree.

One unexpected result of the public calls to shut down these groups is that the tiny Facebook group “Holocaust: A Series of Lies” has gotten slightly less tiny in recent days. On Tuesday, ABC reported that when a 25-year-old student from Portland, Ore. “heard that the social networking site was under pressure to ban Holocaust denial groups, he decided to join one.” A visit to the group today, which had 39 members yesterday but has now swollen to 44, shows that the student interviewed by ABC, Abbas Hodroj, posted a message yesterday linking to the ABC Web site and saying, “Hey guys, we are getting the word out there.” What exactly that “word” is though is not clear. Of the 21 comments posted on the group’s discussion wall though, 19 have been posted in the last week and at least half of those take the group to task.

I can't believe that there's people who deny this existed anymore than I can believe that the creationists state their beliefs just as emphatically when the evidence isn't concurring in any shape or form.

I do have a question about holocaust deniers, especially ones that are not Middle Eastern, but are they also advocating any kind of anti-semetic tones to their denials? Meaning, are they just saying, "The holocaust didn't exist." Or are they saying, "The holocaust didn't happen, those jews are liars" or some other anti-semetic rhetoric?

This is about the ability to have a discussion, on whatever subject and level that Facebook decides is acceptable. Since it doesn't violate their TOS in any manner, should they be forced to be removed? Or should it succumb? What is to stop someone from getting the creationists banned? Or any other group?

Personally I believe that it just shows who is what. Facebook links names and photos, makes it easier for me to see who the stupid people and assholes are and avoid them when they are within physical proximity of me.

Plan9 · 05-13-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Personally I believe that it just shows who is what. Facebook links names and photos, makes it easier for me to see who the stupid people and assholes are and avoid them when they are within physical proximity of me.

Bingo. Let the dipshits put faces, names, and work info with their nonsense.

Willravel · 05-13-2009, 01:52 PM

I strongly disagree with their views, but they have a right to share them.

Considering the crappy groups on facebook, I'm surprised anyone cares.

loquitur · 05-13-2009, 01:59 PM

Let 'em put their shit out there. Banning things only gives them the chance to say "see? the truth is being suppressed! the evil joooooooos are just so powerful!!"

That's why I think the laws in certain European countries that make Holocaust denial a crime, or that bar displays of Nazi symbols, are a big mistake. The only country where it might make sense is Germany, and even there I have my severe doubts.

Jinn · 05-13-2009, 02:11 PM

I'd rather this than "Future Trophy Wives", but that's just me.

I think that any site which has the cajones to allow 'free speech' in this sense is better than one that would cave to peer / media pressure to remove "hate groups." How's that saying go? I disagree strongly with your opinion but I will fight for the right for you to speak it?

raptor9k · 05-13-2009, 02:33 PM

deleted

JumpinJesus · 05-13-2009, 02:39 PM

I'm for free speech all the time - not just culturally acceptable speech, but all speech. I detest the censorship of ideas and hold in contempt those who believe it's their place to determine for others what passes for acceptable speech.

levite · 05-13-2009, 03:24 PM

I can't say I'm shocked. There's a fair number of groups on FB that involve anti-Semitism of one kind or another, and I've heard plenty of rumors of others that are racist or hateful in some other way.

I don't like it, but that's the internet. You can't stop everyone from expressing themselves, and unfortunately, the range of people doesn't just go from smart to dipshit, but also includes the vicious and the loathesome. There's no successfully censoring them without taking everyone else with, so there's no censoring them.

That's the way of the world.

If nothing else, I feel like maybe running into these unpleasant little piles of shit from time to time will cure the illusion so many people have that anti-Semitism is either a thing of the past, or at least become a very rare phenomenon.

It's neither.

Baraka_Guru · 05-13-2009, 05:02 PM

There is a reason hate speech is illegal in certain areas and morally wrong everywhere: It was one of the main catalysts of the holocaust.

Willravel · 05-13-2009, 05:03 PM

Hate action is illegal, that's enough for me.

Manic_Skafe · 05-13-2009, 05:29 PM

With so many of users becoming fans of random things that no one really cares about - 3,202,953 Fans of Sleeping - Facebook seems to be only a few months short of shark jumping implosion.

I'm willing to bet that none of this will make a difference a few months from now and even if Facebook are pressured into shutting them down, I'm sure Myspace would be happy to have them. Then again, Myspace would be happy to have anyone these days...

percy · 05-13-2009, 07:22 PM

When I see stuff like this it isn't the people who are posting their views of the Holocaust that necessarily concern me, it is the motives and agendas of the people behind why these people are doing so.

We have white supremist groups who do it because they hate Jews. We have organizations ( who are commissioned by governmental agencies as well as NGO's) to gauge the climate of hatred by setting up the environment to do so. There have even been Jewish groups who encouraged Nazi's to to flourish and have supported them silently all the while looking for future politcal gains, by having these groups prop up the threat of Nazism and anti-semtism .

So I am not really interested in the cover of the book, but rather what the chapters say.

levite · 05-13-2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by percy

There have even been Jewish groups who encouraged Nazi's to to flourish and have supported them silently all the while looking for future politcal gains, by having these groups prop up the threat of Nazism and anti-semtism.

With all due respect, I am not convinced that this is accurate. Short of a couple of very regrettable errors in understanding between Jewish groups and Nazis in the early 1930s, I cannot bring to mind a circumstance such as you are describing here.

Could you perhaps cite one or two specific instances?

Willravel · 05-13-2009, 09:33 PM

Yeah, that sounds a bit out there.

percy · 05-14-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by levite

With all due respect, I am not convinced that this is accurate. Short of a couple of very regrettable errors in understanding between Jewish groups and Nazis in the early 1930s, I cannot bring to mind a circumstance such as you are describing here.

Could you perhaps cite one or two specific instances?

Here you go

Why did the Jewish Congress build up the Nazi Party? - Ezra Levant

MSD · 05-14-2009, 09:46 AM

So I was warned for being a member of a hate group when Something Awful's Anti-Furry Coalition (Furry hate is a running gag on SA) was deleted, but we can have people deny the Holocaust and get away with it. No double standard there at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I do have a question about holocaust deniers, especially ones that are not Middle Eastern, but are they also advocating any kind of anti-semetic tones to their denials? Meaning, are they just saying, "The holocaust didn't exist." Or are they saying, "The holocaust didn't happen, those jews are liars" or some other anti-semetic rhetoric?

Typically, they acknowledge that there were camps, but claim that they weren't death camps, citing arguments like "the residue on this building that's been open to the elements for 50+ years can't have come from Zyklon B," or "a diesel engine can't produce enough exhaust to kill people as many people as quickly as they say it did because there's no way they could have run the engine rich to produce more carbon monoxide,"Then they go on to say that Jews, gays, etc. should be exterminated.

levite · 05-14-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by percy

Here you go

Why did the Jewish Congress build up the Nazi Party? - Ezra Levant

Well, I must admit, I had never heard of this incident before. Nonetheless, I read some of the author's work, and he seems to be both given to imprecision, and politically somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun, which together makes me suspicious.

If you look here, there seems to be a somewhat different view of the incident in question from an apparently reputable source.

I grant you, infiltration and agitation are chancy businesses, which I am sure is why this incident strikes me as surprising-- I would find it difficult to believe that tactics like this are particularly mainstream from Jewish anti-hate groups, although I could certainly believe it from some more fringe elements.

I would still firmly submit that it is probably unfair to characterize even this incident as Jews building up or bankrolling Nazis in order to unfairly distort the threat of anti-Semitism.

roachboy · 05-14-2009, 10:12 AM

the amazing things about these ultra-rightwing revisionists is that they still bother to talk at all given that every last one of their stupid claims have been demolished repeatedly. a good, systematic demolition of robert faurisson's version of this nonsense can be found in the re-edition of germaine tillion's ravensbruck, in the appendices.

CandleInTheDark · 05-14-2009, 08:14 PM

The value of free speech and freedom of association. Idiots are able to rally together to be identified, ridiculed, and generally defeated in the arena of honest debate. More free speech please!

05-13-2009, 02:11 PM	#5 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I'd rather this than "Future Trophy Wives", but that's just me. I think that any site which has the cajones to allow 'free speech' in this sense is better than one that would cave to peer / media pressure to remove "hate groups." How's that saying go? I disagree strongly with your opinion but I will fight for the right for you to speak it? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

05-13-2009, 02:33 PM	#6 (permalink)
raptor9k Crazy Location: Earth	deleted Last edited by raptor9k; 09-08-2021 at 04:56 AM..

05-13-2009, 02:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	I'm for free speech all the time - not just culturally acceptable speech, but all speech. I detest the censorship of ideas and hold in contempt those who believe it's their place to determine for others what passes for acceptable speech. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

05-13-2009, 03:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	I can't say I'm shocked. There's a fair number of groups on FB that involve anti-Semitism of one kind or another, and I've heard plenty of rumors of others that are racist or hateful in some other way. I don't like it, but that's the internet. You can't stop everyone from expressing themselves, and unfortunately, the range of people doesn't just go from smart to dipshit, but also includes the vicious and the loathesome. There's no successfully censoring them without taking everyone else with, so there's no censoring them. That's the way of the world. If nothing else, I feel like maybe running into these unpleasant little piles of shit from time to time will cure the illusion so many people have that anti-Semitism is either a thing of the past, or at least become a very rare phenomenon. It's neither. __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

05-13-2009, 05:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	There is a reason hate speech is illegal in certain areas and morally wrong everywhere: It was one of the main catalysts of the holocaust. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-13-2009, 01:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I strongly disagree with their views, but they have a right to share them. Considering the crappy groups on facebook, I'm surprised anyone cares.

05-13-2009, 01:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	Let 'em put their shit out there. Banning things only gives them the chance to say "see? the truth is being suppressed! the evil joooooooos are just so powerful!!" That's why I think the laws in certain European countries that make Holocaust denial a crime, or that bar displays of Nazi symbols, are a big mistake. The only country where it might make sense is Germany, and even there I have my severe doubts.

05-13-2009, 05:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Hate action is illegal, that's enough for me.

05-13-2009, 05:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
Manic_Skafe More Than You Expect Location: Queens	With so many of users becoming fans of random things that no one really cares about - 3,202,953 Fans of Sleeping - Facebook seems to be only a few months short of shark jumping implosion. I'm willing to bet that none of this will make a difference a few months from now and even if Facebook are pressured into shutting them down, I'm sure Myspace would be happy to have them. Then again, Myspace would be happy to have anyone these days... __________________ "Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

05-13-2009, 07:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
percy Addict	When I see stuff like this it isn't the people who are posting their views of the Holocaust that necessarily concern me, it is the motives and agendas of the people behind why these people are doing so. We have white supremist groups who do it because they hate Jews. We have organizations ( who are commissioned by governmental agencies as well as NGO's) to gauge the climate of hatred by setting up the environment to do so. There have even been Jewish groups who encouraged Nazi's to to flourish and have supported them silently all the while looking for future politcal gains, by having these groups prop up the threat of Nazism and anti-semtism . So I am not really interested in the cover of the book, but rather what the chapters say.

05-13-2009, 09:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Yeah, that sounds a bit out there.

05-14-2009, 10:12 AM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the amazing things about these ultra-rightwing revisionists is that they still bother to talk at all given that every last one of their stupid claims have been demolished repeatedly. a good, systematic demolition of robert faurisson's version of this nonsense can be found in the re-edition of germaine tillion's ravensbruck, in the appendices. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-14-2009, 08:14 PM	#19 (permalink)
CandleInTheDark Addict Location: Where the music's loudest	The value of free speech and freedom of association. Idiots are able to rally together to be identified, ridiculed, and generally defeated in the arena of honest debate. More free speech please! __________________ Where there is doubt there is freedom.