03-20-2009, 08:35 PM | #41 (permalink) | |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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If this conversation were about the Pope's stance on most other issues, it's likely that I wouldn't even get involved. But it happens to be a trigger issue for me for several reasons. I realize my mistake now and I apologize for misdirecting the conversation by making my comment about the Vatican being obsolete. I should have stayed on topic and maybe folks who support the Pope's views would have actually told us why they support them. I think I addressed your last paragraph in my response to Smeth above.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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03-22-2009, 12:46 AM | #44 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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I could write up a long post that reaches the max character limit, but I felt that I could convey the message in a more succinct manner in a single line. True or false: The pope is a virgin? If my car breaks down, my mechanic better have at least driven a car once in his life, otherwise he really isn't qualified to be telling me anything about my car. The point I'm trying to make here is that if he's talking about spiritual matters, fine, he's got that down pat and is an authority there. If he's talking about sex, then he's taking shots in the dark.
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03-22-2009, 06:01 AM | #45 (permalink) |
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always been under the impression that the "no contraceptives" rule was designed as a way to increase the number of members of a particular religion, assuming that children will be raised under the same religion as their parents.
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03-22-2009, 08:06 AM | #46 (permalink) | ||
Walking is Still Honest
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It's when we get to married Catholics that we might find some relevant critiques.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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03-22-2009, 08:59 AM | #47 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Honestly, I wouldn't go to Hugh Hefner for sex advice either, but he would probably be a better choice as he actually knows what it's like to have sex. If I were going to climb Mount Everest, would I ask an experienced mountaineer or someone in a fancy hat off the street? Is that analogy better? All I'm saying is that the pope has not and will not have sex, so making him some sort of authority on it is a really bad idea.
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03-22-2009, 09:11 AM | #48 (permalink) | ||
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I can't say that I can tell you why someone would speak in support. There's a good amount of vitriol against speaking with the pope that it's easier to just not say anything. Quote:
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03-22-2009, 09:15 AM | #49 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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03-22-2009, 09:24 AM | #50 (permalink) |
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I see it as a feeble disengenous attempt from an educated man,
trying to puff on the dying or dead embers of colonialism. Of course there are many other facts and factoids, surrounding. Women At Burkina Faso Conference Lash Out At African Men |
03-22-2009, 10:05 AM | #51 (permalink) | ||||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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03-22-2009, 10:18 AM | #52 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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__________________
"Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head |
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03-22-2009, 10:30 AM | #53 (permalink) | ||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ---------- Quote:
You're missing my point: that's not the whole of sex advice. It's still incorrect to say that he's categorically a poor choice for sex advice. He's a poor choice for your purposes. There's certain aspects of sex that don't require firsthand experience, most notably but not limited to successful abstinence and moral guidelines. Just for the hell of it, to continue the trend of bad analogies: far better than detailed advice on how to rob a bank is the advice to avoid such a felony. The career crook has more expertise, but some man in a fancy hat off the street likely has better advice.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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03-22-2009, 10:33 AM | #54 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Again, the people decrying that this is about sex, don't seem to understand that this is about spirituality and not about sex.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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03-22-2009, 10:43 AM | #55 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Chicago
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I think the Catholics and pro-Catholic crowd wants this framed as a spiritual debate because it's the only basis from which they can claim authority.
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03-22-2009, 10:49 AM | #57 (permalink) | ||
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---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ---------- this isn't much different than Halal/Kosher and nutrition. It doesn't make sense to those that aren't believers, and it isn't meant to be.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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03-22-2009, 10:55 AM | #58 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Cyn, it's about spirituality AND sex.
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I think the anti-Catholics want this framed solely as a medical debate because it's the only way to marginalize the Pope's thoughts as wholly irrelevant. Which they aren't. ---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ---------- There's nothing dangerous about abstinence.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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03-22-2009, 10:58 AM | #59 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Chicago
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The Catholic Church has a well documented history of catching up with science centuries too late. When it comes to medicine having a "live and let live" philosophy about religion doesn't help. We're talking about the same organization that molested children for years then systematically engaged in covering it up.
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03-22-2009, 11:04 AM | #60 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ---------- Because we all know that abstinence only has proven to be very successful. Abstinence only as a policy doesn't work, condoms do.
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03-22-2009, 11:15 AM | #61 (permalink) | ||
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It's about spirituality and sex for those outside of the catholic realm. I'm not apologizing for them, but having lived as a catholic and living within an orthodox community, it's not my responsibility to chastise someone's spiritual leader's decision.
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Broad stroke there... since it wasn't the entire organization nor was it the entire organization covering it up. ---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ---------- Quote:
When all my friends were busy fucking everything that moved, a few got STDs and some had children. I on the otherhand who was celibate for 3.5 years did not have any of that experience. Seems to have have worked for me.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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03-22-2009, 11:18 AM | #62 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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So who on this thread believes they should stop distributing condoms in Africa? Why?
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
03-22-2009, 11:20 AM | #63 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but I posted Applewhite's pic to make a point, just because the person is a spiritual leader does not make them the absolute truth. They do the best that they can with the information that they have and they can be wrong. (Galileo?) To paraphrase what was said earlier, "yes, that worked for YOU." That doesn't work for everyone, so why not give the option?
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"Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head Last edited by spectre; 03-22-2009 at 11:29 AM.. |
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03-22-2009, 11:38 AM | #64 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Chicago
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I didn't mean to move in this direction with this, I just used it to illustrate a point that ceding responsibility to the Catholic Church to look out for the welfare of millions up on millions of people hasn't exactly historically been the wisest thing to do. I don't see how this issue is any different. The way I see it, we'll allow thousands - if not millions - to die simply to avoid offending some old man in a fancy hat and everyone who else thinks he's the bees knees, but that's just me. Now, that is my own opinion and it's just as smelly as everyone else's, but it's still how I believe. I can't imagine my opinion being any less valid simply because others don't like it or agree with it.
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03-22-2009, 12:21 PM | #66 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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No, it's actually the unprotected sex that directly causes these deaths. And while celibate people have gotten AIDS, be it from drug use or bad transfusions, abstinence actually has a very low infection rate. Roughly, zero.
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03-22-2009, 12:25 PM | #67 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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The basics of the church is free will. Everyone has an option and a choice. To not follow the dogma in this case I believe is a venial sin or a minor one, with a major one being a mortal sin. Sins can be forgiven, so there's plenty of option and choice there. As far as Applewhite's ability to being a spritual leader, it's not much different than Jim Jones or David Karesh. Is it really a good thing to lead your group towards destruction? It doesn't lend for more followers. ---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ---------- Quote:
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03-22-2009, 12:38 PM | #68 (permalink) |
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Cyn?, you say you stepped away from the Catholic church?
It sounds to me me like the ghost echoes of it are still haunting, maybe they always will. I am singling out myself and you collectively. We all have dogma issues from the past and present. I would like it if you would all respond to mixedmedia's question please. |
03-22-2009, 12:49 PM | #69 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
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Yes. It doesn't diminish my understanding of how the RC church thinks and operates. I cannot say the same things about pentacostal, evangelical or any Christian based faith ministries. These aren't ghosts, they are understandings of how the teachings and mechanisms are within the RC churches. I was considering myself at one point in time for the seminary, and even after rejecting that considering being a deacon because of the more lax rules towards chastity and marriage.
It's not much different than understanding how the rabbis influence the lives of their followers in the Judaic faith. Sure I can decry that I love to eat bacon and pork, eating nonkosher items such as beef and chicken, but it has little to do with how they understand their own spirituality and access to God. I don't believe that they should stop distributing condoms. I don't think that the Catholic church can say that condom distribution is within their accepted points of view either. They cannot say,"Sure distribute condoms..." It would go against the normal dogma that they currently have with regards to condoms as a means of stopping pregnancy.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
03-22-2009, 01:27 PM | #70 (permalink) |
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I believe that is why I hear a desperate hollow tone in the pope's voice.
I cannot believe he believes in what he's preaching. For all his super right wing stances, there is a sad undertone to it. Noone likes to have their beliefs violently stripped away, be it the flat earth believers...and so on. Noone prospers under the hamfist of any doctrine. If I came to you with food, it would be because you are hungry. No God strings attached. Strings are tricky things, though, they grow, and it gets complicated. ...I still love the idea and symbolism of breaking bread. What it means to me is fellowship with all my humanoid brethren. I'm hungry. We are all hungry. Let's eat. Last edited by ring; 03-22-2009 at 01:31 PM.. |
03-22-2009, 02:41 PM | #71 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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ring is getting at the point that has been rolling around in my head: iron-clad proclamations are really easy to profess and cling to when they are handed down in times that do not fiercely test them. Now I think you would find relatively few Catholics (especially in the West) who would suggest that Africans abide by Catholic dogma on this issue because they themselves don't abide by it. Imagine if the Pope had been talking about America? I think the outrage would be palpable in comparison. But the Catholic church has been attributed so much domain over Africa that when he says something like this the response is pretty much 'well, I don't agree with him, but it is Africa, after all.' The Pope doesn't speak for all Africans. He doesn't even speak for all Christians in Africa. So when I heard this statement coming from him I wasn't only outraged because, if given his druthers, he would stop the distribution of condoms in Africa, but also because this man who sits in absurd luxury in Rome has established such power over the people in Africa - and through some means of persuasion (not understood by me at the moment) the Vatican has pretty much situated themselves in this role in world opinion.
And, you know, I like to think that ring is right and that the pope really is hanging onto dogma because he has to, but I don't know if it's that simple. I think the Vatican's relationship with Africa is much more complicated than that. And, I believe that those who are attuned to extremely metaphysical worldviews about cause and effect and their place in 'the plan' are much more complicated than that. After all, just look at the real implications of what they are suggesting: the people who have died, who are dying, who will die in the interim before this 'spiritual transformation' are expendable. Of course, they don't come out and say that - they sugar coat what they do say with professions of friendship and compassion, but the implications that the people who have died and will die are meant to die because they don't 'get it' is still there. Saying that, I don't mean to say that I think the Pope and other officials at the Vatican are cruel or evil, I mean that they are coming at this problem from a very extreme religious viewpoint and are very adept at couching their words for public consumption.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
03-22-2009, 02:54 PM | #72 (permalink) | ||||
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As we've seen repeatedly in the United States with abstinence only programs, they just don't work. Quote:
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They were all spiritual leaders, granted, they were all batshit insane, but they're ideals led to the deaths of far fewer than the number that will die because of the pope's decree, and that's the part that's really fucked up to me.
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03-22-2009, 03:17 PM | #73 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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The hamfisted approach seems to work for Orthodox Catholics, Orthodox Jews, Fundamentalist Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists. A dogma is a dogma. You either accept it or you don't. The leaders make the decisions. This is why things like the Council of Nicea I & II, Vactican I & II came to being, to help create and guide the dogma. It's not much different than Marin Luther and his doctrine changes and accessibility to theology. His split from the church is not much different than any of the other Christian sects that split off from the Roman Catholic church, notably the Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox. This is why many groups have different spiritual leaders instead of a single figure head. ---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ---------- Quote:
Understand that the RC Church cannot make a proclamation that condoms should be used. Like you said, it goes counter something else. No one at this time is prohibiting them from getting and using condoms. There's no Holy Army that is confiscating and destroying condoms. People have choices, the pope makes his decree, and people think that that's the only choice that seems to exist. That's the only choice that seems to exist for those that wish to follow the Roman Catholic dogma 100%.
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03-22-2009, 03:23 PM | #74 (permalink) |
Crazy
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I agree with having rock solid beliefs and all good for the pope to have those, BUT this is a time and place where people's lives are at stake for spreading this misinformation, that you need to be able to be humble and say yes you should refrain and that is what we prefer you to do, but if you are going to, stop killing each other with HIV and wear condoms, it is not our view but should you not choose to follow our/your beliefs than use protection. People's lives are in jeopardy and obviously they are not listening to his views of it because the problem is growing, his advice might even be making it worse if they honestly believe that condoms do not protect against disease and choose not to use them because of his advice.
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03-22-2009, 03:26 PM | #75 (permalink) |
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What does all this splitting say to your gut?
The word 'seems' jumps out at me. I am trying to remember the name of an author from a muslim place who witnessed the sharp severe indoctrination of youth at the mosques, and then wrote a very poignant expose about it. I did not grow up Catholic. My two ex-husbands did. (They remember physical torture & mental.) The radical difference between two generations in the US, (alone.), is telling. Last edited by ring; 03-22-2009 at 03:28 PM.. |
03-22-2009, 03:48 PM | #76 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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That's absurd, totally absurd. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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03-22-2009, 03:59 PM | #77 (permalink) |
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Try to imagine....close your eyes if you have to,
THEY, come. They insistently command you you to change and adapt to something foreign beyond your comprehension...but they have food, and other supplicants... YOU, are relevant, Cyn. Not understanding is the most sacred place to be. |
03-22-2009, 05:03 PM | #78 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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I don't understand why you are pandering to my own ego of being relevant, because it doesn't explain why my "gut" or information on history of the Roman Catholic church makes me "feel" any different about this discussion.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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03-22-2009, 07:26 PM | #79 (permalink) |
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A black and white statement.
Not all people who give things away attach strings. Pandering: Do you feel I have appealed to your lower tastes and or desires?, and that I am attempting to exploit your weaknesses? I wasn't pandering to your ego, unless you consider the whole of yourself your ego. I was asking (you)an honest question about your feelings and thoughts on the matter. You stated that you didn't understand why your opinion on the history of the Catholic church was relevant. Expound on that statement please, otherwise I sit here with a big, Huh? |
03-22-2009, 07:32 PM | #80 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
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I don't find it relevant as to how I feel about the splintering of the sects from the Catholic church to the Pope and Africa. It's irrelevant to this discussion.
People like to do things their way. If they don't like the way you're doing something they pick up their marbles and go play somewhere else. Its not much different than that. From the splintering of the beliefs going back to the total of Abrahamic religions to all the way to the giving of food and aid.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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aids, condoms, distributing, epidemic, increases, pope, problem |
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