02-04-2009, 09:32 AM | #1 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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what would you do?
You're in your driveway, under the hood of your car. 3 police officers and 2 state troopers approach you and ask you if you have any weapons. You do happen to be carrying a pistol in a holster on your hip. You point to it, making sure that they see you are not reaching for it. They slam you up against your car, forcibly remove the pistol, then handcuff you. They explain to you that several houses down someone has shot themselves in the head in their vehicle and they are just securing the area. 15 minutes later, the 2 troopers and a single officer come back, uncuff you, and ask you to stay here as they have some questions to ask later. You ask about having your weapon returned to you and why they felt it necessary to violate your rights on your own private property. He doesn't answer, so you pull out the small video recorder to record his actions and non answers, they demand you turn it over. Knowing it is not illegal to videotape in public, you refuse, then they threaten you with a taser. Arrest you, charge you with felony obstruction and resisting arrest.
what would you do?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
02-04-2009, 09:49 AM | #3 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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Lawsuit?
"Securing the area," sounds like some bullshit to me. Last time I checked, suicide isn't contagious. (Granted... I wish it was... we'd have a lot less Emo kids.) ... Wait... DK... were you wearing your "DEATH TO PIGS" shirt, again? Ya know, the one with the cartoon cops being decapitated? You're such a kidder! Last edited by Plan9; 02-04-2009 at 09:52 AM.. |
02-04-2009, 09:50 AM | #4 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Sue the police department. I'll bet with the case this hypothetical person has, they could get decent legal representation for free. And if your lawyer gives you the okay, upload that video to youtube and put it on reddit and digg. The more attention and public outrage the case gets, the less likely it is to happen again.
They can't arrest you for felony obstruction for videotaping them and because of that they can't get you on resisting arrest. |
02-04-2009, 09:53 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Anchorage, AK
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whoa, sounds like a new movie coming out. that is intense. I would try to be calm the whole time, but also try to keep on recording it to show their actions or try to stay in front of their trooper car the whole time since they have video there. other than that, I dont know what to tell ya. But I would press charges.
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02-04-2009, 10:04 AM | #6 (permalink) |
zomgomgomgomgomgomg
Location: Fauxenix, Azerona
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From what I understand, through circular logic the likes of which time traveler paradox's don't even compare with, they can attempt an arrest for a bad/stupid/illegal reason, and then if you resist, legally arrest you for resisting arrest.
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twisted no more |
02-04-2009, 10:11 AM | #7 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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the only video now available is dash cam footage from one police car....wait for it......with NO audio. the digital recorder has turned up 'missing'. so what would you continue to do?
-----Added 4/2/2009 at 01 : 12 : 16----- Quote:
just kidding. no special t-shirt involved.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 02-04-2009 at 10:12 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-04-2009, 10:16 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Knight of the Old Republic
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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They weren't acting unethically or unlawfully until they took the video camera. Them taking the camera is worth bringing up but them cuffing you because you had a gun is just police work. Someone is dead a few houses down, you're sitting there with a gun. It's their job to investigate what happened and you do look suspicious.
If they charged you with resisting arrest then I highly doubt you simply got out a camera and were arrested. If you made a big fuss then they probably hit you with the right charge anyway.
__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert |
02-04-2009, 10:25 AM | #9 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-04-2009, 11:05 AM | #11 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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take the hit?? allow yourself to be railroaded?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
02-04-2009, 11:09 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Registered User
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this is what lawyers are for.
doesn't matter if there isn't any audio on the video or not. get a criminal lawyer to get the charges dropped and then a civil lawyer to sue the shit out of the city. might take a couple of years.. but hey.. it's better than doing nothing. |
02-04-2009, 11:13 AM | #15 (permalink) | |
Knight of the Old Republic
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Quote:
__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert |
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02-04-2009, 11:14 AM | #16 (permalink) |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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I would seek legislative relief, and demand a review and/or suspension of the officers by their internal affairs division.
Failing that, I would kill them.
__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
02-04-2009, 11:22 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-04-2009, 11:22 AM | #18 (permalink) |
Here
Location: Denver City Denver
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Well, first and foremost...
I wouldn't assume I was above the law. No one violated your rights. You're being paranoid. There was a right way to ask about your weapon. You didn't do it. And there is absolutely no reason to ask a cop "why he felt it necessary to violate your rights on your own private property. You are part of the reason the rest of the country thinks people in Texas are fucking nuts.
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heavy is the head that wears the crown |
02-04-2009, 11:24 AM | #19 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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I wouldnt have a gun.
And Im not saying that to take the piss.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
02-04-2009, 11:45 AM | #20 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
This incident happened in Michigan and not to me. Now, maybe you can stop making stupid ass judgement calls and answer the questions applying the rules of law instead of applying your fucked up common sense values?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-04-2009, 11:47 AM | #21 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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Whoever it is, why would they have a metal on them while they were working on their car in their driveway?
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
02-04-2009, 11:51 AM | #22 (permalink) |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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This really only applies to countries that don't have draconian gun laws. It makes perfect sense to me to have a concealed when working on your car in your driveway.
__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
02-04-2009, 11:58 AM | #23 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
I posed this to see how people would deal with law enforcement violating the rights of people, mainly about the camera, and not about the guns. Everything in the incident has the citizen completely within the laws of the country and the state. can we get on with dealing with the legal issues instead of asking' why would'?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-04-2009, 12:02 PM | #24 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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I think to understand why this person ended up in trouble, you'd probably understand why they feel like they need a gun to mend their car on their own driveway - because the answer's will probably be the same?
Legally you can say what you want about it. Common sense would say that to antagonise a load of police for no personal gain and for no logical reason is only going to cause you grief and hassle.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
02-04-2009, 12:10 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
so whether this is greenwich village or downtown detroit is irrelevant. -----Added 4/2/2009 at 03 : 11 : 35----- so being ordered to surrender private property (video camera) with no legal justification is not a violation of a persons right? being arrested for refusing an illegal order is not a violation?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 02-04-2009 at 12:12 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-04-2009, 12:42 PM | #28 (permalink) |
░
Location: ❤
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dk..just so you know, you really frighten me and I worry about you.
It seems like you lay awake at night thinking up all kinds of scenarios to get yourself all worked up on an adrenaline rush. People can become truly physically addicted to this sort of thing, their brains become so used to all the diferent chemicals that are dumped into their system in a 'fight or flight' situation, be it real or imaginary. You need help. |
02-04-2009, 12:46 PM | #29 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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actually, you can. cops do it all the time--it's just a lovely dimension of that brave new world of freedom republican-style. it's typically something on the order of a slap suit--there's nothing to it, but you have to hire a lawyer to get out of it.
as for the op---i was wondering who this happened to, and then it turned out to be a second-hand retelling of a story. from what's here, things took a turn at the point where the hypothetical hero of individual rights asked the cop "why was it necessary to violate my rights" by taking the gun after that hero was told at the outset the rationale for the action. the video taping just confirmed the obtuseness of the hypothetical hero of individual rights. but i have the feeling that stuff's been left out somehow. you have a more complete account, dk? i'm just curious. something feels wrong about your version.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-04-2009, 12:57 PM | #30 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
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Let us hear this again, the property owner was LEGALLY carrying a gun. he committed no crime, was not suspected of committing a crime, nor was there any assertion by the police that he was going to commit a crime. Those three substantiations MUST BE MADE in order for a police officer to detain someone. This is United States Supreme Court precedent people. It is not that hard to follow. your ideas of common sense do not play in to this. If you want them to, write your state representatives and get them to rewrite the constitution and the laws. Quote:
-----Added 4/2/2009 at 03 : 59 : 20----- Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 02-04-2009 at 12:59 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-04-2009, 01:09 PM | #31 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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geez, dk. sounds like you're defending the cops actions regarding the camera. or maybe you misread the statement i made. who knows?
as for cops acting imperious when questioned---this is news how exactly? seriously, dk. this happens all the time. i'm about the last person to defend it---it's obviously an ugly side of wearing a uniform, this impression that comes along with it that your Authority exempts you from questions---but this sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME. i have a dozen stories i can think of about this kind of nonsense off the top of my head. but if that's true, that what's at issue here is an entirely routine abuse of power, then it cannot be the case that you abstracted this story from any number of alternative possible stories with the same plot line for that reason--so this is about the gun. i don't think it is about the gun. i think it's about the above--and as annoying as it is, it also seems to be the sort of thing folk are willing to put up with, conditioned as they are by endless television shows about heroic police who never stamp on basic rights, who never act like assholes etc etc etc.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-04-2009, 01:23 PM | #32 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
Quote:
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 02-04-2009 at 01:39 PM.. |
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02-04-2009, 02:55 PM | #34 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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Can anyone yet explain why the guy was carrying a metal while working on his car on his own driveway?
Since such a thing is obviously bizzare and threatening - the police's reaction has to be judged in relation to this strangeness. So yes, it does matter. Its legal to walk around wearing all black and a balaclava and a sports bag at 3 am round a residential street... but if you did youre behaviour would be judged as suspicious and youd expect to be stopped and searched. The same thing goes to any guy who is armed in his own front yard. The police are gonna obviously think "why has this guy got a metal on him?" and arrest him, because its incredibly suspicious and threatening behaviour.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
02-04-2009, 03:01 PM | #36 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Quote:
BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Analysis: America's gun culture For pro-gun people, you're not going to like the article, but that's how most Europeans see it. |
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02-04-2009, 03:06 PM | #37 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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This isnt about gun ownership in general.
If a guy is tooled up in the middle of the woods, wearing an orange jacket and taking pot shots at wild animals - in America at least this is reasonable. Its about the context of a guy who is tooled up, in a residential area, with kids and women around, who is aggressive when the police approach him. Im the last person to defend police, but they were correct to treat this guy with caution. And the resisting arrest charge suggests the guy was more aggressive than the poster wants to communicate. Whatever articles you can quote, I cant see any reasonable reason for a sane person who does not wish to do anyone harm to be carrying a metal in the middle of the day in his own front garden!
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
02-04-2009, 03:10 PM | #38 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
so, for this particular issue, the gun is irrelevant. -----Added 4/2/2009 at 06 : 12 : 47----- Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 02-04-2009 at 03:12 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-04-2009, 04:08 PM | #39 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Quote:
First, it's upbringing. Most people that are gun-friendly here had guns as a religion in their household. The teaching was simple: you could be in danger, so why risk it? Have a gun. In addition, there's the power. I don't know if you've ever handled a firearm, but they're fucking cool. Cold, precision steel, the connection with virtually every hero in American mythos; even the power of god, the ability to take a life and to make the determination as to whether someone deserves to live or die. Guns are fucking cool. Finally, there's the government. The Second Amendment was originally about protecting one's self from tyranny. That ideal, the patriotic insurrection principle, runs surprisingly strong in the US, especially the South. I don't list these to excuse the behavior, just to explain it. |
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02-04-2009, 05:04 PM | #40 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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Funny, I didn't grow up with guns in the house, don't feel all that powerful with one (as a civvie I'd only ever use one when I'm a situation where I have no choice), and I'm not worried about The Man (TM) all that much.
It's a hobby. It can be abused just like anything else. |
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