shakran

back to the original topic, I'd sue for prior restraint and violation of my 1st amendment rights. I would probably also sue for false arrest, as i was doing nothing wrong when they detained me (they can call it detaining me all they want, but if I'm not free to leave, then I'm under arrest, and they can't arrest me unless they have a specific charge in mind when they do). Then I'd seek compensatory damages for the emotional suffering and hardship the traumatic experience caused me, including sleepless nights, fear of leaving my house, and an involuntary flash of terror every time I saw a cop car.

I'd also call every media outlet in town and let 'em know that the cops don't allow people to video tape them anymore. Photojournalists /love/ it when the cops decide our job is now an arrestable offense

Strange Famous

Yeah... go contact the local media and start telling the story.

"I was just fixing my car in my own front yard, and I had a metal on me..."

I dont think you'd need to tell anymore for them to make up their minds.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dksuddeth

so, you're saying right here that it wouldn't matter to you that the guy didn't break a single law, was falsely arrested, had excessive force used upon him, and had his first and fourth amendment constitutional rights violated by law enforcement, you'd dismiss his case out of hand because he carried a gun when you felt he didn't need to?

I'm sure glad that some of the media over here doesn't agree with you.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/39722082.html

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

MSD

Maybe in the UK where blaming the victim seems to be the way they do things, but here all you need to do is tell them that you were thrown against a cop car and arrested for videotaping them, all while doing nothing illegal" and they'll be all over it.

And when did "metal" come into use as a slang term for a gun? Must be a British thing, I've never heard it.

Strange Famous

He was NOT falsely detained, he was detained because someone had been shot and he had a piece on him and was a few hundred yards away. In that case the police acted reasonably until they were sure of the situation.

The charges he faces arent even do with carrying a metal, they are do with threatening and aggressive behaviour he showed towards the police.

Personally, and impartially, I hope a 50 hour community service order that has him picking up garbage every weekend for the next 6 weeks will teach this guy a little common sense.

I bet he feels like a real constitutional hero right now.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dksuddeth

what common sense would that be? to grovel to cops instead of demanding your rights?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

MSD

They were sure of the situation -- they told him that someone down the street shot himself. He was assertive and arguably aggressive toward the police for needlessly roughing him up and acting unprofessionally, then arrested him for obstruction and resisting arrest despite the fact that he had done nothing illegal, had complied with their orders except when they told him to do something that they had no right to make him do, and they had previously let him go and not attempted to arrest him. Then they "lost" the evidence.

If this story as we've been told it is accurate, then the police are acting like thugs when they should be holding themselves to a standard of professional conduct.

shakran

To reiterate MSD's point, here's the quote from dk's initial post:

If they tell me that they know I didn't shoot the guy, and detain me anyway, then that is false arrest. They have no legal right to detain me because, by their own admission, I have done nothing wrong. We do, by the way, have evidence that they know that they have no right to detain this guy, because they confiscated his camera. Why would they care if they were being videotaped if they weren't doing anything wrong. (Yes I'm aware that the previous sentence is exactly what the government tells us when we complain about spy cameras being installed everywhere to monitor the citizens. Turnabout is fair play).

Kingruv

Bravo to you and MSD,

Shakran, what you wrote above is the norm it seems in London and Washington and a host of other places lots of people don't think of. What bothers me more than those who do the surveilling and those who use it are those that see it as normal.
By defending it as normal, this normalizes it, which legitimizes it. Those who feel they have little stake begin to get anesthestized to others rights being trampled. They may have passing thoughts that it's wrong, but too, begin try to justify it as something that society must put up with to be safe. By the time they realize it may be too much, it's too late.

I had mentioned in another place about the 3rd article of the Bill of Rights. No you don't hear much about it because it doesn't seem relevant anymore. We should not forget the reason it was written. (also part of the reason behind the 2nd Article)
The Quartering Act was passed and enforced in colonial America with the proposition of merely having a place for soldiers to billet.

The fact is while few soldiers were in single family dwellings, they were often quartered with families that ran taverns and public houses. The same ones that were places where Colonial opposition met and families that owned and ran them lived. These weren't alone, a lot of immigrants to this country from Europe had had the same problem before moving here.
The idea is clear, chill opposition. There is little difference in that and these intrusions today.
If you can't be secure in your own front yard from arbitrary intrusion and provocation then you're either a prisoner in your own home or you're going to be tagged as "belligerent" and a trouble maker if you speak out.
Strange,
Her Majesty's Goverment may do as it pleases. If Great grandpa George the III, had kept his wits about him and restrained his pride the provocation might never have lead to a revolution. But he did and it did. Now your being overrun and have no way to stop it.
In the mix of all that Britain not only capitulated to the French and Americans but lost a lot more than North America. It seems to me you don't realize what it is your predecessors gave in to in 'reasonable compromises", leaving you little of what was a great country.

As for Americans who don't think it's worth the effort, a little more reading and digging might give you fresh perspective before things get more out of hand.

There is a move on by those who would control this country to turn this into a plantation and the masses into serfs if not slaves.

To quote that icon of law enforcement, Barney Fife, "We've got to nip it in the bud".

Strange Famous

Its not a case of grovelling, more keeping your head down, when it comes to dealing with police.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

so you're just saying that no matter what.. just do what you're told when the police are involved?

yeah..because we all know how law abiding police can be..

You know what the difference between a thug and a cop is?

a badge.

Sure there are some good cops, but most of them get on this little power trip when they get a badge because they know most of the time a court will never go against them and they can do whatever they feel like doing, no matter who's rights they step on.

Strange Famous

there's some good cops and some bad ones and most are inbetween I expect.

I'm not saying anyone should grovel - Im saying that sensible people dont pick fights with those in power for no purpose.

If the guy would have acted cool he wouldnt have caught a case. He acted like a jerk and he did. Like I said - semi-sarcastically - maybe he feels like some kind of hero championing his right to carry a metal while he fixes his car... but if I was in his position I wouldnt be facing 50 hours community service or whatever the sentence will be for the restisting arrest charge. Even if he gets off its a whole load of hassle that could have been avoiding by simply keeping his head down and not making a fuss and filming the two coppers.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

so you're still saying that it's ok for cops to abuse the power because the hassle just isn't worth it..

that solves absolutely nothing.

dksuddeth

thats what i'm hearing. the 'just do what you're told' crap.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

MSD

So you're saying it doesn't matter who's right or wrong as long as the result is peace and quiet?

Strange Famous

Im saying I'd rather be wronged and be left alone than do 50 hours picking crap up off the floor for the sake of feeling self righteous.

Its simply the logical extension of the famous truism - it's better to live on your knee's than to die on your feet (although a few people get confused and get it the wrong way round)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

Yeah, the gun-owning U.S. is confused... we all have it "the wrong way round."

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Glory's Sun

You might get 50 hours Community service, but this man will get nothing because if he has even a half-assed lawyer, did nothing wrong.

It's not being self-righteous, it's simply not letting someone who thinks they can do anything roll all over you. It's about making sure truth is enforced.. not thuggery.

Strange Famous

And two police will testify that he did, against him - a guy who openly confesses to carrying a gun the whole time and who reacted in an aggressive way in the middle of a suspicious death investigation. I wonder who the court would believe to have done nothing wrong?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

it won't even reach the court stage.. because of mishandled evidence.

Even still, even if he did get community service.. so what? At least he didn't pussy out just because someone in a uniform told him to do something. Just bowing down and letting things happen..yeah..that's really a great thing to do... I mean things have always been better that way.. history books lie.

dksuddeth

confessing to exercising a right.......yep. that's gonna go over well with a judge.
attempting to exercise a right by taping the police.........i'd like to hear the explanation of the police on that one.

judge: officers, why did you order the surrender of a video recording device?
officers: your honor, we had a right not to be videotaped.
judge: no you didn't. You are civil servants who have no expectation of privacy in a public setting while performing your authorized duties.

my guess is that if this guy has ANY witnesses, the city will settle any lawsuit before it gets in front of a judge just to avoid any embarrasment.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Kingruv

Strange, If you think a local prosecutor in the U.S. would take up this case to court then you missed the ride on the Durham (NC) Railroad.
Most prosecutors here are gun shy now (pun intended) over getting involved in some police fiasco they can get run over with.
This is likely: IF the cops took this to the prosecutor, the first thing he is going to do is want to talk to and read statements from the state troopers. That would be a problem because their supervisor is going to tell them to steer clear of this and not get drawn into this and thus that department. The prosecutor is going to go back to these guys and say apologize and make this go away, now!

You did understand it was in America and not Britain? Think about it the next time yo go to vote for your local prosecutor. (Or does the Crown doesn't extend you that privilege?)

Glory's Sun

I was wondering how long it would take before Mike Nifong's name came up

dksuddeth

So StrangeFamous, should the guy in the following story also have just said 'yes sir', and done what the nice officers told him?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/ny...bout.html?_r=2

or were disorderly conduct charges necessary to ensure that the guy stops backtalking officers enforcing laws that don't exist?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Glory's Sun

we could fill this thread up with about 1,000 different stories every day. It happens every day in every city.

I'm not saying that the police are all bad, I mean let's face it they have a shitty job, but, that doesn't give them the right to bully and trample on the rights of others.

this is another case that will never even make it to the court room. DA's are ruthless but in most cases, I would say they most certainly aren't stupid.

Strange Famous

If he'd just said "sorry about that" and deleted the picture... he wouldnt have any hassle at all.

Why on earth wouldnt any sane person follow that course of action?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

have you read any of the other posts? I thought we explained why a person wouldn't do that.

A police officer is not the law..yet they act like they are. Anything they do or say is supposed to be taken as fact and as law and it's not even close in many instances. That's why a normal person wouldn't just bow down to anything they were told by a uniform.

Strange Famous

No, you not explained anything covinvingly to me whatsoever.

You talk about what you feel is moral.

I speak of facts. The guy who says "sorry about that" and delete's the picture loses - what? a digital picture, and he's on his way and has no bother.

The guy who starts making a fuss and demanding his rights be recognised gets a trip to the station, a whole lot of hassle and misery, and if he does complain and gets a compensation claim through - his card will be marked.

Which is the best option? To defend a right and suffer for it, or to turn the other cheek, and be at your girls house getting head and drinking a brew while Mr Self Righteous is in a cell & getting his fingers inked?

__

If youre gonna fight The Man, you ought to pick something worth fighting for, rather than the write to photograph a train station, or having to button your lip and let the police give the gun back in his own sweet time just so he can prove to himself he has the power, do you really not agree?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dksuddeth

ok. I'm not quite understanding why you have no concept of rights and liberties. Is this the norm for the UK?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Glory's Sun

It's a Brit thing.. they were never too good at that fighting stuff..

SF: Hassle or not, rights don't exist for nothing. Rights are put in place to make sure that everyone has a life to live. If those rights are abused, then your quality of life is worsened. That's why it is important to make sure that people who try to abuse those rights are made aware of their actions. To simply cower and walk away for the sake of hassle, has never in any action, served a man well. What's the point of living if you can't live with some pride? What's the point in "making it worth fighting for" if you aren't allowed to have all of your rights? To avoid hassle? That's just plain weak.

You keep feeding that machine SF.. someday you might understand..

Strange Famous

you call it weakness, I would say excessive pride is weakness.

If something is worth fighting for, a sensible man fights.

If its for the sake of asking nicely for your gun back rather than whipping out a video camara and asking them coppers why they are violating your rights on tape, or wiping your picture and saying sorry -a sensible man turns the other cheek. Whether the cop has the right to tell you take a picture or not doesnt matter. An adult simply follows the course of least resistance and most favourable result; and adolescent kind of attitude is the one which cant except standing down when you feel youre in the right, even though doing it hurts you.

And if I want a pictue of the train station, I simply take one when the police arent around, not under his nose to wind the copper up.

Back to the original post - I wonder if this gun fanatic is glad of the way he behaved now that he is facing two cases. Bet he wished he smiled at the copper and just asked nicely if he could have his piece back or when he could collect it. Then he woulnt be facing a case would he? Simply saying a few words and not being ruled by his pride and he would have an easy life rather than a hard one.

Its nothint to do with being a coward. People who commit the most crimes dont tend to go out of their way to antagonise police, same as any sensible man.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dksuddeth

um, not even no, but hell no. I cannot agree with this mindset at all. My rights are mine. You will not infringe upon them, for they are mine. Just as I will not infringe upon yours, because they are yours. You say it's sensible to let others with badges order you around as you decide whether it's 'worth it' to stand up for yourself, but I beg to differ. I see it as letting anyone with any sort of power rule over you. I simply cannot understand that mindset.

I'm guessing that once he's awarded money in the tens of thousands, plus his legal fees being paid for, he'll be quite happy.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Strange Famous

Or once he gets a 50 hours community service order, a years probation, or even worse a month's worth of grey days... perhaps not so much.

One guys word against two police... and a guy who is gonna be seen as a "gun nut" by the court and the CPS (or whatever the equivalent of Prosecution Service is in the US)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

vanblah

Maybe if more people would stand up and "demand" their rights we wouldn't have a system that erodes our rights. I do wonder when enough will be enough with regard to the whole thing.

I am not a gun owner. However, I have no problem with people owning guns and most of you would call me a bleeding-heart liberal. Most bleeding-heart liberals wouldn't agree.

This dude in the OP had a choice. In my opinion, he chose wisely. We need more people to be vocal about our rights in the US. Would I do the same? I don't know. I haven't been in that situation. I do own a video camera though and I wouldn't think twice about using it to record a cop if I had it on me at the right time.

Yes, guns are designed for one purpose ... to kill. That doesn't mean everyone who owns guns uses them for their potential. Heck, I have a good friend who has a shot-glass collection and SHE DOESN'T DRINK.

I, too, question the judgment of someone working on a car while wearing a gun ... but dk is right: It's moot. Doesn't matter what I think or even what the COPS think. The law is very clear in this scenario.

dksuddeth

and all of that is possible. The cops could certainly embellish their stories. But I guess we should just let it go and let the cops get worse.

again, all of that could indeed happen. but i can tell you that it would only happen to me once. the next time would get seriously violent if the police decided they could ramrod over my rights with impunity.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

silent_jay

Beter than the US, at least the Brits don't show up to the fight late then try to take all the credit. That was a joke, before someone gets their knickers in a twist.

I see your point SF, it's the same here in Canada, I see no need to carry a gun and get a kick out of yanks that feel the need to. To me a guy carrying a gun while fixing his car is just well almost laughable. I have nothing against guns, I've shot them plenty of times, I enjoy shooting them, I just don't get the need to carry a gun while I'm planting a tree or fixing my car.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Glory's Sun

QFT


And really...even if two cops *say* something and even *embelish* what happened, they still have to hand over the patrol car's tape. Even without audio, they cannot say that they had any right in asking the man to put the video camera down. Again, it's a moot point because the man would be out of the jail as soon as a magistrate saw it, or as soon as the DA tried to take it to indictment panel.

To sit and say that's it unreasonable to stand up for your rights.. *any* right is laughable.

Strange Famous

depends what rights you want to fight for.

The right to take pictures of train stations and carry around foriegn shooters?

Or the right to universal access to health care, to not be the victim of racist behaviour, the right to work for a living, the right to be able to feed your family?

Like I said, in my view part of being a grown up is knowing what battles are worth fighting.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dksuddeth

Of all that you mentioned, I see only ONE that is guaranteed by our constitution. One other has been made solid through our supreme court decisions. The others not only are not mentioned in the constitution but have been explicitly denied via our court systems. Now, to not be the victim of racist behavior.,.....we added that in the 14th amendment.

so your viewpoint and position is really non-sensical and is almost totally opposite of what rights we really have in this country.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Strange Famous

If you have such violent thoughts, maybe gun ownership isnt the best option for you?

After all, putting away a police officer means a lifetime of grey days, or worse if they have a hangman in your state.

Thats pretty serious stuff. For your own sake you have to another when to roll over or keep your head down.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas