Glory's Sun

based on prior discussions with SF, I wouldn't say it's the latter. That isn't an insult.. just merely a point to say that he often has a pre-conceived notion and doesn't persuade from that view no matter what evidence is presented.

Tully Mars

Well, if he's not having a good laugh then, well, then I just don't know what to say.

Either way I'm done with this horse it's still dead, beating it more won't change anything.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Strange Famous

No, Im not saying that.

I dont deny that it is a logical possibility that a woman could commit some form of sexual assault on a man (with a sex toy or something if the man was tied up or injured) - but what I am saying and what I think you know I am saying is that in the real world, cases of this happening are so rare that it is almost a non existent event.

If all the women in your office constantly smacked you on the arse - yes that would be a problem - but it doesnt happen, and in nearly every case of sexual harrassment in the work place the victm is a woman being mistreated by an aggressive male who is abusing a position of authority. Sexual harrassment is a shameful thing, and I think we devalue the experience of real women who are victims of this by talking about fantasy scenario's were all the women in your office spank you or whatever it is youre going on about.

I hope I dont need to have a discussion about the bird's and the bee's with you - but sexual intercourse in the normal sense CANNOT occur if the male is not willing, for quite clear biological reasons.

A woman cannot force a man to have sex if he doesnt want to. That is a fact that cannot be disputed by any clear clear thinking person. I read one of the articles posted in this thread - and it claimed he first way in which men could be victims of sexual assault by women was if they got drunk with a woman and slept with her and in the morning didnt find her attractive. To be honest I find this prety outrageous to compare real sexual assault to a guy making a drunken mistake.

No man can be forced to have sex if he doesnt want to do it. If he regrets it later, this isnt assault, this is regret. To have sex the man must actvely and physically consent.

_

With regrads to this case - I have never denied that the actions of these girls were thoughtless, over the top, and a mistake. All I am saying is our response should be proportionate and realistic. They should lose their jobs, and in my opinion thats all

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Frosstbyte

If despite ample evidence to the contrary you're completely unwilling to consider the fact that these girls are no better than your average date-rapist or child molester, I guess that's up to you. I have nothing else to say here except that I'm shocked and appalled that people still have views like this about the two genders.

SecretMethod70

And it is abundantly clear that that is all you read. Especially considering one of the studies talks about how men can become sexually aroused despite being unwilling. It is a biological response, plain and simple. One reason why humanity has advanced as far as we have is an understanding that we build upon the knowledge of others. The fact you can be told - and shown - by literally every single other person in this thread save one that what you are saying is absolutely wrong, and yet continue to hold onto your view that well gee, women are just so pretty and wonderful and smell so nice, they just don't do things like this and golly if they did I'd sure be a lucky guy, aww shucks!...well it's just sickening. It's unfortunate that apparently you're contact with women is so rare that you'd welcome disrespectful sexual assault while you are mentally incompetent and incapable of even understanding what's going on...but perhaps if you had a more equitable view towards women that wouldn't be the case. God knows if I thought about women the way you do - and was open about it - I probably wouldn't have any of the female friends I have. Idealizing someone is never a good thing, and despite thoughts to the contrary it is actually disrespectful to that person, not more respectful. I hope, for your sake, that you never have to deal with a family member that has Alzheimer's, because you would be shocked, in retrospect, at the sheer stupidity that is coming out of your keyboard right now.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Baraka_Guru

Touché. Just remember that any notion of fantasy was yours to begin with.

I'd like to see this concern of devaluing transferred to the men and women in the OP article too. But I think that too would be a fantasy, by the look of it. I pity your negative views of both men and women.

Thanks to smeth, frosst, tully, and others for your attempts to temper this thread with reason, but I think I'm done here--at least with this aspect of it.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

what jumps out so far as i am concerned in this case is that these girls seemed to treat the patients they abused as toys first and as human beings maybe to the extent that the abstract idea of these folk being humiliated made them more interesting as toys.

i can't imagine such a sequence of events getting started without a wholesale breakdown of empathy. so to my mind, the ethical problem these girls performed is central--this is obviously abuse legally--it is obviously an abuse of power----but the ethical dimension is kinda chilling. it's like something went dead inside these people.

when i think about this situation--to the extent that it is present for anyone through the accounts linked in this thread---i do base my evaluation on an empathetic reaction, but it goes toward the folk with alzheimers. it's such a horrific disorder which already undermines any sense of agency by scrambling the way memory organizes itself...and in the facility that is set up to care for them, they are treated like toys.

i don't see a defense of this being possible.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Glory's Sun

you sir, are sadly misinformed.

I'm clear thinking. I've seen enough data on this subject in the past month that I wanted to pull my hair out. Literally.

In this case, there is mention that a man had a finger shoved up his ass. Correct? Would that not constitute anal penetration i.e. anal sex? The patient was unwilling for this to happen.. ergo, a man had sex without being willing.

SMeth has already alluded to the other aspects of unwilling male sex so I don't need to rehash that again as you are simply thick headed and have no clear intent on seeing the case or the facts for what they really are. I cannot fathom why someone would simply stick to their guns when their argument has been blasted so full of holes that there really is no ground left to stand on.



I'm not even going to bother posting link after link, stat after stat, because there have been multitudes posted so far and you seem to ignore them. Maybe it's because secretly you hope that you get groped by a female co-worker.

Tully Mars

Well I was done with this thread but... Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in...

These laws vary state to state. I'm not aware of any federal sex crime laws, as far as I know they're all handled at the state level. Any of you professional legal type people out there feel free to correct me.

In Oregon the act of inserting a finger into another person without their consent would be unlawful sexual penetration. In this case since the victim was unable to give consent due to mental defect, mental incapacitation or physical helplessness. This would be a class A felony and what's known as a measure 11 case. Measure 11 is a law passed by popular vote and it assigns minimum sentences for certain crimes. Here's how it reads for Oregon-


Oregon Sex Crime Information | Rape, Sodomy, Sexual Abuse Felonies

So, in Oregon, based on the girls statements in the police report the major crime here would be Unlawful Sexual Penetration I, which is treated the same as Rape I or Sodomy I for the purposes of sentencing.

Under measure 11 Unlawful Sexual Penetration in the first degree carries a min. sentence of 8 years, 4 months. Measure 11 also mandates juveniles over 15 charged with these crimes to be tried as adults.

Oregon Ballot Measure 11 (1994) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that's just that one act (crime.) Reading through the police report I can assure you there are a bunch of other charges these girls could be charged with, I wouldn't be surprise to see a DA charge 10 to even 30 counts against some of these girls. DA's like to charge every possible count they can, ever see someone who accused of killing one person be charged with 3 or 4 counts of murder? It not that unusual.

OK, now I think I'm done here.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Strange Famous

It is my view that the views mostly expressed in this thread are not based upon clear thinking, but instead gender bias.

I have been asked many questions and have done my best to answer them.

I ask one question - do those who have posted claims that these actions are rape or serious crimes really have the courage of your convictions.

If you step outside of this being a debate, do you really want to see these girls spend significant time in prison and potentially have their lives destroyed - because of these actions? Actions which I intrepret as AT WORST being unpleasant pranks, and realistically in most cases being over excited horseplay.

Let us have a true understanding of what has happened.

There are NO reports of injuries suffered
There is ONE instance of a CLAIM made that someone had a finger slipped up their bum. The rest of the claims amount to little more than horsing around. (ie - patting the guy on the butt, laying in bed next to him, splooshing water at him, etc)
The men have not been physically harmed, and the sum of the complaint is that these old men, who are gravely ill and have probably had very little sexual activity in a great time have been exposed to sexualised horseplay by a bunch of pretty teenage girls.
I dont say this in a flippant way, but as I stand now, if you would tell me that at 90 when I was on my last legs and vulnerable, a 19 year old nurse would dry hump me - I would NOT complain. If I knew a male relative of mine was exposed to this, I would NOT complain on his behalf. Whether you want to admit it or not, most people in the world feel the same way.
-----Added 5/12/2008 at 02 : 36 : 51-----
Whether you find a study that says this thing is neither here nor there, because every man in this world knows that arrousal is not a purelt biological and automatic response.

I can tell you for a fact that I know that a pretty girl and an unattractive girl doing the same thing results in different responses in terms of arrousal. I know that if I watched a pornographic video with a pretty girl I would get an erection, and if I watched a pornographic video with two dudes I would not. I know that is a girl I wanted gave me a lapdance I would get an erection, and if a 16 stone, 5 foot tall, bald headed 50 year old women gave me a lapdance, I wouldnt. I know for a fact that if a girl put her hand on my lap it would arrouse me, and if a man did it wouldnt.

The problem with quoting this study and that study and then claiming because some academic writes something its a fact is that ignores reality and common sense. Our experience and own lives tell us these basic truths in relation to this matter.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

I don't think I'm going to bother posting after this, because it is clear that you're either not reading or not comprehending anything that is being written here. I hope it's the former, but I fear it's the latter.

You are, quite literally, the only person (well, except that one other post in this thread) who has not seen a huge problem with this situation. Some choice comments from a different site I also frequent, just for further example...And, since everyone at that other site appears to have their head on straight, I tried to shake up the discussion a bit and told them about this "other guy" I was discussing the issue with. I told them this...Among other things, they described these views as "sickening."

And as someone whose 90 year old grandfather has Alzheimer's, and whose family may no longer be able to afford paying for in-home care because of the global economic downturn and may instead have to put him into a nursing home within the year, I can tell you with absolute certainty that, yes, I do "want to see these girls spend significant time in prison and potentially have their lives destroyed."

Even reading your description of their actions shows a complete lack of comprehension regarding what has happened. You're warped view of women has apparently made it impossible for you to comprehend that these acts were not "horseplay," but violent acts with the intent of angering, not playing around. The girls themselves have confessed as much!! You've got to have your head pretty deep in the sand (or pretty far up something else) to read about this and think it was "horseplay."

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Strange Famous

Both of my grandfathers were sick and vulnerable before they died... it doesnt change my intrepretation of the way the world is.

Anyone who thinks 5 years in jail is a "slap on the wrist" is not in touch with reality

I see the other quote you have brought up is a statement that if the person was related to one of the patients he would commit murder against the teenage girls responsible. Even when said in a state of high emotion these sentiments are deeply disturbing and frightening.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

Again with the reading comprehension. I think 5 years in jail is a reasonable sentence, especially considering they would be felony charges which they can be required to disclose in job applications. Except, since I bothered to read and comprehend the articles I also know that they are likely not to get any jail sentence.
-----Added 5/12/2008 at 03 : 32 : 10-----
Strange Famous, here's another link for you to ignore which talks about how the sexual response of males is involuntary: The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Manic_Skafe

You've got it backwards. It's gender bias that allows you to assert in contrast to all of the evidence presented, that these girls acted without any serious intent to harm.

You've attached your own anecdotal truths to the situation and erased away the fact that women in this case and guilty of sexually assaulting and harassing the (defenseless) invalids to whom they were entrusted.

There's no such thing as "sexualized horseplay" with the mentally handicapped. The victims aren't even lucid enough to completely grasp what's being done to them.

You do realize that if you were to have the great misfortune of being in the shoes of these victims, you probably wouldn't be of the mental capacity to complain let alone enjoy it.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

mrklixx

SF, do you think that performing sexual acts on a male child is immoral? If so, is it ok if they give their "consent", and no physical harm has been done?

What if you were blindfolded and someone began sucking your penis. Are you saying that it is 100% impossible that you may become aroused?

Also, do you know what "morning wood" is?

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This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent.

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highthief

He's done my head in ...

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Strange Famous

There is no comparison between old men and children - it is a completely different question. We are not speaking about children her, but mature men. Children have not developed yet into fully moral subjects. Adults are. These men may be elderly and very sick and vulnerable, but to call them children is very disrespectful. Even if their mental and physical powers have waned they are still men and still entitled to be dignifyed as such.

"morning wood" is of course caused by dreams of an erotic nature. If you dream of dying you dont wake up with an erection, if you dream of a hot girl you may well do so. This simply is further information supporting my point - not denying it.

if I was blindfolded, it would depend on my interpretation. if I thought it was man I wouldnt be arroused because Im not a homosexual, if I thought it was a woman I would be if I wanted to be with that woman in that moment.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

Somehow I missed this edit. Setting aside the general anti-intellectualism you've displayed (there's no "common sense" reason not to believe the Earth is the center of the universe after all)... do you not realize that a good 50% or so of the people behind this research are...males? I guess they must have been castrated at a young age or something though, because to hear you say it anyone with a penis would know that your view is true.

Funny how only 1 of about 45 people so far who have been expressed to your views has even given them any open consideration. It's kinda like the person who constantly complains about the people they try to date. At a certain point you have to have the clarity of mind to realize it's not them, it's you.
-----Added 5/12/2008 at 04 : 02 : 41-----
You clearly have completely avoided exposure to a large portion of the aging populace. Either that, are you're the most unobservant person on this entire planet. At this point in the thread, I'm honestly not sure which.

When you don't remember what happened 5 minutes ago, spend an hour in the bathroom with the shower running...but don't remember to take a shower, and can't go to the bathroom properly without the assistance of someone else...

Honestly, I don't even know where to begin with this. The ignorance is just astounding.
-----Added 5/12/2008 at 04 : 04 : 22-----
Of course it is!

Oh, except it's not.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Strange Famous

Actually the article you quote explicitly supports my statement.

If a man can get "morning wood" in his dreams but cannot get an erection when awake they know that the problems he has when awake are emotional - which in fact is a statement that the act of getting an erection is controlled by emotion (ie - excitement and willingless and desire to have intercourse)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

Uh, no, it means the act of NOT getting the erection, in that case, is emotional. There's a big difference between not getting an erection when you WANT to get one, due to emotional causes, and GETTING an erection when you DON'T want to get one. The point is that erections are rather complex and can be caused (or not caused) by a variety of things. "Morning wood" is an example of the physiological side of things, and sexual anxiety is an example of the psychological.

The female sexual response is far more emotionally based than that of the male, yet many women do get "wet" when they are being raped - which is one source of embarrassment and psychological anxiety. What you are arguing is the equivalent of saying they enjoyed it and therefore there was no victim. These are biological responses, and they are not necessarily connected to our emotions. That emotions can get in the way of them has nothing to do with that fact.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Strange Famous

Im sorry - but even if a man cannot get an erection at will in every case (which may be true for some people some times - for example - yes, if you recently had sex you might not be able to get an erection straight away even f you saw an arrousing sight), it is certainly the case that any man can prevent an erection at any time - simply by thinking of something that is unattractive.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

no body is talking about erections or such. the simple black and white.. and COMMON SENSE factors in this case are as follows:

Spitting water on a resident, lying in bed with a resident, touching a resident on the buttocks, inserting her finger into a resident’s rectum, antagonizing a resident, humping a resident and putting her hand over a resident’s mouth because that resident would scream.

so let's take this one by one shall we?? Maybe this will provide some clear thinking.

Spitting water in the face-- not an assault but, a very offensive thing to do especially to someone who cannot defend themselves.

Lying in bed with a resident--again not an assault, but something that probably isn't in the job description.

Touching a resident on the buttocks-simple assault and sexual harassment. Unless the patient explicitly asked for a touch on the buttocks then it is sexual harassment. Plain and clearly simple.

Insertion of finger into rectum--sexual assault and sexual harassment. If the action was not consented to or done for a purely medical reason, it's a form of rape. Plain and clearly simple.

Antagonizing a resident-- until I know the expansion of the antagonizing I can't comment on this one.

Humping a resident-- now I'm assuming this is for all intensive purposes dry humping or humping such as a dog would do. --assault of a very demeaning nature (much more demeaning than calling them children) and again sexual harassment. Unless the person said "hey cutie, come hump my leg like a dog"

Putting a hand over a residents mouth in order to get the patient to scream-- assault and if you have a good lawyer.. you could pull an attempted murder charge off of this.

So I ask.. who is clearly thinking? Who is really looking at this in black and white?? I'm all for due process and won't assume the girls are guilty until proven to be so, however, if they are found guilty and the evidence shown proves this without any doubt, then yes they should get whatever sentence is merited in the law. They will have abused people who have no way of defending themselves. This is no different than preying on children. Children cannot defend themselves and neither can people in this type of situation.

Now. what are we confused about exactly? Why does it matter if it's a girl or a boy doing these acts? Does it really matter? I don't want to hear some lame ass excuse about the female makeup because if we want to paint with such broad strokes.. all the English are just power hungry murderers who want to control everyone with cunty fingers.

Instead of ignoring what the academics write and going off on some common sense avenue..look at all the evidence presented.. there are many academics spouting the same stats.. and.. one person's common sense is another person's ignorance. Just because you spout common sense doesn't mean you actually have it. In this case, SF, you lack it.


hrmm that's funny.

I can think of the most horrific and disgusting things known to man, and if my wife is playing with me, I'll still get an erection.

mrklixx

But I didn't have any malice, or cause any physical damage in my disrespect, so it's obviously ok.

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Glory's Sun

ftw.

Strange Famous

Not a crime. A disciplinary matter at work at most.

Not a crime and utterly harmless

Harmless, and at worst a misjudgment. The buttocks are of course not a sexual region with regards to the male - so there is hardly even a sexual connotation to this action. It is nothing more than horseplay which did not harm or demean the resident in any way - as he was a male.


The only action in this whole case which could be considered criminal assault (I would call this possibly sexually aggrivated assault rather than anything such as rape - which it self evidentally is not. A woman, biologically, cannot rape a man - because she does not have a penis) But the key question here is the context. Did the man object? Did he complain or feel he was violated? As I stated earlier, do we believe that even a very old man could be so overpowered by a 110 lbs 19 year old girl that his trousers and underpants could be removed against his will and she do this? I put it to you that they were in a situation (however bizzare and inappropriate) when he had willingly removed his clothing and allowed her to place her hand at least in this region.



ie - having an argument with a resident. I am sure that this happens every day in every care home, not a criminal or disiciplinary matter in any way.

Again, over excited horseplay. Maybe a disciplinary offence but hardly a crime in relation to a woman dry humping a man. Women may "grind" against men in dance clubs every night in towns and cities across the world - do you propose rounding them all up and charging them with sexual harrassment?

A disciplinary offence, if it happened as reported, hardly a criminal matter. I think we have to consider the possibility that the hand over mouth was to stifle a cry of another kind. The girls after all did not hold the man hostage 24/7 - if he had wanted to cry for help he simply would have called for help the minute she took her hand away.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Actually, spitting is assault. Just recently in Toronto, a transit driver was assaulted as such by a passenger. Think of some of the dangers as well: hepatitis and meningitis, etc.

And the lying in bed thing depends on the context. It could be assault depending on what was done exactly.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

The buttocks aren't a sexual region? Who are you to decide what is and what isn't a sexual region? Is a females ass any different than a males? Or are your homophobic tendencies showing? Females look at the asses of men, they like them if they are nice.. so it can be a sexual region.. oh.. you mean that by merely touching a man's ass that's there no way for that to turn into arousal right? WRONG.

So first off you're assuming that the male wasn't wearing a gown.. he was wearing trousers and a belt and everything.. and next you're assuming that a man in a facility like this could still hold some sort of power of a 110lb girl. Nevermind the fact that many of them don't even have basic bodily control.. I mean.. how in the world could this have really happened? Girls just don't do these sort of things.

So now you're going on the whole, the female doesn't have a penis and therefore cannot rape a male. It's impossible for men to get raped unless there is a penis involved. That's nice, you just slapped all the women in the face who have been raped by force with objects other than a penis by that sort of logic. If a woman walked up to you while you were somehow incapacitated and shoved a broom stick up your ass would not think you were raped? Of course not.. because she doesn't have a wang. She can't rape you.

Apples/Oranges.. If I go into a strip club I'm WILLINGLY walking in there for whatever purposes I intend on. If however I am admitted into a mental facility, I'm pretty sure that the brochure is not going to list "lap dances upon request"

SF-- I don't know why you keep wanting to play this argument as it's demeaning towards all genders and quite frankly wishy washy at best. Either you simply like to hold firm in any belief even if it is found to be false, or you simply cannot comprehend what is being put in front of you.

I sincerely hope it isn't the latter.

SecretMethod70

I can't believe I'm wasting my fucking time responding to this inanity...Tell that to all the men who enjoy prostate stimulation. Even taking that out of the equation, the butt is very much a sexual organ. You claim that the butt is not a sexual organ because a person is male, which I assume is because you disassociate the butt from male sexual gratification. Except, women are just as likely to get sexual enjoyment out of external butt play than men, and are arguably less likely to enjoy internal anal stimulation than men. The female butt is viewed as a sexual organ because men see it that way. If a woman's butt can be considered a sexual organ because of external attitudes, then so can a man's.

Again, are you fucking kidding me? Do you have any idea what it's like to be in the condition many of these kinds of patients are in? Honestly a 5 year old could take my grandpa out, let alone a 19 year old, relatively athletic (it appears) girl.

Yes, context. Like being in a vulnerable position where you're supposed to be able to trust the people who are taking care of you. As for complaining and feeling violated, how many times does it have to be pointed out that these people had Alzheimer's or some other form of dementia (not to mention that this happens to elderly citizens of sound mind too, and they are often afraid to report such abuses). They very likely didn't particularly comprehend what was going on at the time, and even more likely they didn't remember it long enough to complain to someone else about it.

You are stretching and stretching and stretching to hold onto your precious view of "the fairer sex," and it is getting increasingly ridiculous. But you're right...clearly, they're just picking on these poor, innocent girls for no reason, when they must have had an altercation just like any other normal nursing home altercation. It's just not possible at all that sweet, young, innocent teenage girls, who just don't have any form of impurity in their nature, would ever intentionally upset and antagonize a vulnerable senior citizen for their own amusement.

Yes, because god knows it's such a similar situation to what we have here

Again with the stretching. A girl would just never do anything to harm another human being - it's not in their nature! - so there must have been some other reason for her to cover the patient's mouth! Clearly they're just being picked on by professionals who obviously have no idea how to really care for senior citizens. They're just jealous because the girls thought of stifling their screams first!

Give me a fucking break. And AGAIN...do you seriously not have any fucking clue what Alzheimer's or dementia is? By the time the girl was done, the patient may not have even remembered what happened. It's not unreasonable at all that he or she wouldn't cry for help afterwards.

I'm tiring of this stupidity.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Strange Famous

Women who are sexually attacked in ways that do not involve sexual intercourse are victims of serious crime of course, for which the criminals should face 20 years to life automatically - but simply not rape. Rape is a specific term with a specific meaning.

You are talking about a woman ramming a broom up my arse... but this is not reality, things like that simply dont happen. You might as well come in here and say "but what if the women suddenly turned into a horse and stamped on the man with her hooves"... this is not a scenario with any reflection in the real world.

The core of this argument is that I have addmitted that what the girls did was wrong and they should lose their jobs over it, but I have stated that this is not the serious sex crime that others choose it to see it as. Whether you want to accept it not, the fact is that majority of society agree's with me.

Women are by and large not violent criminals (which doesnt mean that women dont commit crime, but it is usually propert crime).

The article in fact only states that this is a care home - it is others who have taken a "worst case scenario" that all of the people are suffering from very serious senility or alchzeimers and then treated this scenario as a fact.

My grandmother was in a care home for a couple of years before she died, so no - it isnt the case that I have no clue what institutions like this are like. Some people are very vulnerable and some people are mentally as sharp as you or me.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

Clearly you should be the new editor of the dictionary. More importantly, legal definitions have nothing to do with dictionary definitions, but I that's not as easy to look up. Suffice it to say, the legal definition is going to be even more broad.

Uncommon? Sure. Doesn't happen? Hardly.

Considering your lack of even the most basic understanding of dementia, I don't see any reason to lend credence to your view of "reality." And while I'm sure I could find an instance of a woman shoving a broom up a man's ass if I wanted to, this stupidity is no longer amusing to me.

Again, think about this: You're a lone voice out of about 45 people I've seen discuss this situation over the past couple days. The majority of society clearly does not agree with you, but you keep telling yourself that.
-----Added 5/12/2008 at 05 : 39 : 35-----
And more selective reading:

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Frosstbyte

Just answer this one question:

All of the facts you have before you are IDENTICAL in terms of description. The ONLY difference is that the people who did it are male. Everything that happened happened exactly as YOU DESCRIBE it has happened.

Do males face the same consequence for identical acts? A slap on the wrist and lost jobs?

If no, what accounts for a double standard for the consequences of entirely identical actions?

I'm not talking about the proclivity of one sex to do something or to not do something else. I'm saying the same thing happened. Should the sexes be punished differently for factually identical situations, and if so, why?

Glory's Sun

are you fucking serious?? really.. take a step back and look at what you wrote. women just don't stick things up mens asses.. no.. there's never been a case where a woman has shoved things up a mans ass before when it was unwelcome. It's never happened because women are just the "fairer" sex.

What a disgrace you are to women. You want to act like you're noble or chivalrous but in fact you are doing all women a great disservice with your argument. I challenge you to visit any women's prison and ask what they think the makeup of a woman is. If they are possible of doing horrible things like this.

The more you type the more I can't help but feel that the only reason you are taking this stance is because you would love for a woman to do these things to you.

The fact that this in your own words happened in a "care home" is even more damaging. The people are there to be taken care of, and being taken care of does not involve any of the actions these girls are accused of.

so quit looking at your own sexual desires and take a look at it in black and white.. it's a simple case, and a simple resoultion.

Strange Famous

I have already stated that if this case involved male nurses and female patients and I was to say the same thing then the arguments I have made would become disgraceful and without merit and without shame.

If male nurses abused elderly women in this way we would be looking at very serious crimes.

But - and I dont know how many times I can say this or how I can make it more clear - what I am saying - and what the majority of people believe (whether 10 people on a particular internet site agree or not) is that men and women are fundamentally different in some ways. A women slapping a man's arse is a different, a fundamentally different, thing to a man slapping a woman's arse.

It is quite frustrating that all I am saying is these simple and logical truths, and yet again and again I am given pedantic and legalistic arguments from people claiming this isnt true.

__

I am sure if we tried we could dredge up some case, out of context, where an insane woman shoved a broom up a man's arse or whatever - but the real world situation is that men are not sexually assaulted by women. Sex crimes are a disgraceful and disgusting stain on even the most civilised nations. Even in a superpower like the US 1 in 4 women in her life will be sexually assaulted by a male criminal. This is the real world. This is what actually goes on. And rather than face this reality we would rather talk about the out of control antics of some teenage girls in a care home.

At no point have I excused them, and at no point have I said what they did was right or ok. But to compare them, and the actions we have seen listed, to rape and rapists is utterly disraceful in my opinion. Rape destroys people's lives, and is one of the most wicked hate crimes that exist in society, and here we are saying it is the equivalent of a teenage girl slapping an old man on the bum?

We have lost our perspective if we allow ourselves to say such things - even if we make these claims (as I feel some people are doing) in the spirit of winning a logicla argument when they know in their hearts they are not true.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

1 in 33 men are sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

if my wife grabs my ass.. she isn't doing it because she's bored.. she wants some action.

there are fundamental differences between sexes.. but to say that one gender shouldn't be punished for doing something of this nature and another should be is a purely sexist viewpoint and one that does no favors for the rights of women.

a female sticking a finger in a mans bum when the action is not wanted is no different than a male sticking a finger in a womans ass when it is unwanted and in the legal definition constitutes rape.

Strange Famous

On what basis can you call me or allude to the accusation that I am a sex pervert simply because I refuse to be bullied into agreeing with you, Guccilvr? I have made no personal comments in this discussion and I dont see any need for you to make this claim that I only believe what I do because I secretly long to be abused.

The simple facts are that this is being blown out or proportion by a media because it is a "sexy" story. These girls are not sex offenders

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

That seems somewhat misleading. If we're talking about a sexual partner putting her finger in your bum, that's obviously not the same as a man raping a woman. How many men are forcibly raped? For how many men is the action against his will and something he cannot stop?

Glory's Sun

you again ignore the facts. the girls assaulted the men.. there should be no distinction or bias towards the gender doing the assault.

will: the stats were for men who were forcibly raped. granted they may not have been all by women but about 10% were.

Strange Famous

So do you propose that that context makes no difference, ever? That we should be neutral between the fire and the fire engine? If a 5 year old child walks up to you in the street and hits you and a 17 stone heavyweight boxer does the same thing - is it all just the same?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Frosstbyte

You respond to my simple question with, again, an assertion that baseline differences in the way that the sexes function and interact justifies the difference between a lost job, suspended jail sentence and a small fine and 25+ years in prison with a permanent record as a sex offender. And that's ok with you?

The actions would be identical, and yet one person essentially gets off and the other spends the rest of his life dealing with the consequences of actions. Systems of justice are fundamentally premise on the assumption that everyone is equal and that everyone who is guilty of a crime should receive roughly the same sentence. A legal system ought to punish an act, regardless of who the actor is, assuming the actor is found guilty. A legal system with completely different responses to the same actions due to race or sex or creed or sexual orientation is corrupt to its core, because then you're punishing the actor and not the action, in which case it is no longer a fair system, but an arbitrary system, which cannot guide people in how they should act.

Edit: Per above, we distinguish between children and adults because we, as a society, have decided that children (unless they show some sort of gross disregard for human life or safety with some level of intent) don't understand how to act, that they aren't socialized. That's a major distinguishing factor in your example and the example I posed.

Think about this a different way, if a girl drugged you so you were conscious but unable to move, then tied you down and shoved her finger in your ass and rubbed her butt in your face and spit on you, would you be upset? Would that be sexual assault?

What you're saying is that people who are too old and frail to protect themselves must have consented in some way because the actors were female whereas if the actors had been male, they couldn't have protected themselves even if they tried, justifying wildly different consequences for identical events. Don't you see how strange that sounds?

Strange Famous

...

furthermore it seems possible to me that something like 1/36 men would be subject to a serious sexual assault. If we agree that 1/4 women are sexually assaulted in life, we have to keep in mind that around 10% of males are homosexual or bisexual. if 90% of the males commit this disusting level of assault against women, statistically we should expect that the 10% of homosexual males are as a depraved as the 90% of heterosexual males. A figure of 1/36 is roughly statistically equivalent.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas