Perhaps you noticed I said that female sexual assault of an *adult male* was virtually unknown. There are a small number of sexual assaults committed by women against children. These women are in my judgment suffering from gender confusion - ie they are biologically women but emtionally are male. (the opposite case would become a cross dresser or even have a sex change)

Simply violence and cruelty are not part of the female character. There are very few violent crimes committed by women, and sexual assault is one of the most violent crimes of all.
-----Added 4/12/2008 at 03 : 03 : 19-----
I have no idea what the girls in this case look like, I dont know if they are pretty or not. My judgment is based on their gender and age, and the gender of the alleged "victims"... nothing to do with whether they are attractive or not.

Do you have any evidence for your claims? Peer reviewed, sociological evidence?

Women have every capacity to be just as violent and just as cruel as men. I will grant that there is less prevalence, or at least reported prevalence (and I can guarantee that people with your attitude are exactly why it's underreported), but that is a far cry from impossible.

Do you have any response to the fact that these girls have reported that they did it to make the elderly people in their care upset? Do you have any response to the fact that these people were suffering from dementia and therefore cannot give consent and are essentially invalids who can't use the bathroom by themselves, let alone fend someone off who wants to torment them? Or do you just have gender stereotypes?

A key piece of evidence is revealed by the article quoted

If the man, even if he was unwell or suffering from mental illness, was being hurt, humiliated or found this activity offensive - he surely would not have become arroused?

The fact that he did is clear evidence that he was not resisting and not being victimised in a conventional sense.

No, I am not going quote sociological studies to say that violence and cruelty are alien to the female personality - it is common sense that this is so. The experience of life which all of us have shows us these things to be true every day.

It is not reported that the people in their care were upset - only that at times they cried out. They did not complain, their families did not complain, and still they do not complain. Are we to believe that of this nursing every one of them sufferes from conditions that effect the memory?

In my view they were not tormented. In my view, whatever age the man is, being groped (which is basically what we are talking about here) by a 19 year old girl is not a "torment"

I don't even know what to do with that. You realize that arousal is not entirely governed by your mental state, right? There are instinctive, hardwired responses to certain stimuli that just happen. I'm sure with about 5 minutes of work you could find plenty of accounts of girls getting wet during a rape, no matter how much they were saying no or resisting. I'm sure with another 5 minutes, you could find tons of stories about guys getting erections at awkward times when they weren't the slightest bit turned on.

That aside, you still don't seem to understand that someone who has Alzheimers can never consent to sexual contact. It is a legal impossibility. Having sexual contact with someone who cannot consent is sexual assault or rape. It's that simple. These girls are getting off with slaps on the wrist because of the attitude you're expressing, when they're no better than guys who would do the same thing.

It is truly a perverse relic in this day of supposed gender equality that people still honestly believe that just because a woman does it it's somehow ok, because hey, the guy got some sexual contact from a peaceful, loving girl that he could've easily stopped at any time with his huge muscles.

dang, that's just sick/evil...

As a man, you should know well enough that an erection alone doesn't equal arousal. An involuntary mechanical reaction from the mentally handicapped doesn't come close to consent for reasons too obvious to outline.

I'd like to meet the ladies where you live.

I'm not trying to be rude here but I can't help but to wonder as to whether you've considered the logical conclusion of your argument. Do the mentally handicapped not have any rights all?

I'd like to hope that you're just trying to keep this interesting.

Funny, cause the most significant link I provided - you know, the one that provided you with the name of a study in The Journal of Sex Research - is all about adult males! Perhaps you were too unconcerned with actually knowing what you're talking about to use your library card to read it? I'd suggest you do so.


And here's a book about it. You can even read a significant chunk of it through Google Books, this way you don't actually have to do anything, like go to a library, to know what you're talking about! That said, I'm sure you'll be interested in getting the whole book from your library. I can't imagine you'd want to profess to know what it's like to be a male sexual assault victim without having any idea what you're talking about. No, that wouldn't be like you.

Oh, and here's more! Again, I'm sure you'll read it...you're not the kind of person to just assume what is and isn't "common sense" with absolutely no research to back you up. You're smarter than that!

You'll notice that the research does show that 25% of men have a positive reaction to sexual assault from a woman. Don't get ahead of yourself though, because the research also shows that men have difficulty accepting that they were sexually assaulted by a female in the first place, regardless of whether or not they liked it. It is unclear whether the men who are indifferent to or even enjoyed their sexual assault feel that way because they have been socialized into the myth that men should enjoy any and all sex they can get, or if they actually enjoyed it. Remember: it used to be a widely held belief that women were at fault if they were raped, and many female victims truly believed this because it was ingrained so deeply into their psyche. In fact, we've got a long way to go regarding social attitudes toward female rape victims as well.

It's funny, I can't find a single journal article arguing that men truly enjoy sexual assault or that women are inherently non-violent. I wonder why that is. I mean, you must have read something reputable about it - you wouldn't just make shit up now, would you?!

Of course, the most important thing here is that this nursing home situation is nothing like the sexual assault of healthy, adult males! As has been stated - over and over again - these are people who in many cases can't even go to the bathroom without assistance, or who couldn't even remember what happened to them 5 minutes later! This sexual assault is very much like that of a child, with the exception of having effects on development.

This is some fucked up shit right here dudes.

I <3 smeth.

Seriously strange: as a poster alluded to above, I know you've got some interesting issues associated with feminine criminal behavior and the punishment thereof - I assume this is related to the same issues? Although somewhat ridiculous, I find your positions moderately fascinating...where else does this extend? Are females inherently submissive, and if so does this play into acceptable roles in society and politics? Is every violent or aggressive (perhaps militarily speaking?) female confused in her gender associations?

And yes, to add to the choir - chicks have some issues. I'd bet this started off small, and rapidly grew as a peer pressure, push-it-to-the-limit sort of thing. Kids will do some pretty bizarre things to fit in and achieve status inside their cliques. I definitely think they should be punished, registered as SOs, and put into heavy counseling. I'm not as positive about the sex offender registry - but that's a general thing as the consequences can be so severe for the rest of someone's life.

Well here you go, here's what the two girls over 18 look like-

http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmo...081inside1.jpg

Not that that make any difference in this case.

I'd just like to point out that since 1997, claims of sexual harassment by males has nearly tripled according to the EEOC. Third Party harassment such as this is justifiable and quite common these days. So anyone who claims that female assault or harassment on an adult male is unheard of or uncommon simply doesn't know the facts.

Don't make me pull out a Host style thread with tons of links. I just did a thesis for my wife on this whole subject. I'm armed to the teeth.

Anyway, the whole point here is that these girls were CARETAKERS. last I checked, taking care of the elderly did not involve rectal exams, lap dances or spitting in the face.

On the whole sex offender registry thing.. I think it's a bit much, however, anal penetration of an unwanted nature, and to a vulnerable person is pretty close to forms of rape.

but no.. no crime has been committed. :rolleyes:

edit: just found this lovely gem of a comment

Hrmm.. you know, it's funny how you want to say that they aren't upset because they didn't complain. You do realize that most rapes go unaccounted for because the person is embarrassed, or they enjoyed it for a split second right? That doesn't mean that a crime hasn't been committed. It simply means that the victim is embarrassed and afraid of ridicule by people of ideas such as yours.

you may enjoy a woman groping you for no reason and you may enjoy it on your death bed, however, it doesn't make it right for someone to take clear and abusive advantage of another person.

and just so you know, you made a comment about topless calendars vs. calendars of men in speedos.. technically you could easily file a harassment case on the matter.. it's called Hostile Work Environment Sexual Harassment. So no, I wouldn't think you were foolish to do so.

It's been a while since I worked with sex offenders or in law enforcement but one of the last trainings I attended dealt, in part, with the changing gender roles in society and how females were engaging in more and more violent crimes. The male/female roles in western society have been in a constant state of change for years.

I can remember my dad being upset when my mom wore pants one day... outside of the house *gasp!* And when she wanted to get a job? "Well what the hell are the neighbors going to think?" This was in the late 60's, really not that long ago. I came across a book one day in the library at Western Oregon State about being a good wife. It was written in the 50's, mid 50's I think. It gave details on how to plan your day around your husband. Everything from getting up to cook his breakfast to how to keep a clean house without disturbing "his" day. Even had a section regarding making sure you have time to both put on your make-up and have his favorite cocktail waiting for him when he gets home. That was 50 years ago, my how times have changed.

Back to the training- One of the theories put forth by the trainer in that final course I took was as these roles become closer to one another the good comes with the bad. Females are not only enjoying more freedoms, some are engaging in more aggressive behavior. Behavior that has been more typical of their male counterpoints. She (said trainer) had graphs and charts complete with arrows and highlights, mostly from the US Dept. of Justice and the FBI, showing that the rate of violent crimes being committed by females was(is?) snowballing. Everything from robbery to murder to gang violence and yes, even rape was increasing at a dramatic rate.

One of the many things that stuck in my head was child molesters and sex offenders are more often then not victims of abuse themselves. And who gets victimized most often? Females, by far.

skogafoss has a copy of that book. it is weird to read.
-----Added 4/12/2008 at 02 : 45 : 16-----
well, your own UK papers are making a case for an increase in female youth crimes

strange famous, you're assuming as well that all the victims were male. some were poked in the breast. I would assume that breast is used here instead of chest because the victim was female.

Regardless of gender, all of these victims were entrusted to care. There should not have been a question of consent implied or required. Just because you rub a guy's dick and it gets hard, doesn't mean that he is liking it. It means that you are rubbing it.

And yes, gowns, pajamas, robes etc are often the only clothing worn in these facilities.

I find that if you are truly playing the devil's advocate here, then you are taking on Sean Avery proportions...

What, is this taken directly from the 19th century or is it earlier?

I'm not sure who you're making out to be second-class citizens, males, females, or the infirm. They can't all be second-class. I'm not easily confused, but you've accomplished as much in me.

I'm glad others have spoken from my perspective in my stead.

While I haven't seen any sexual harassment charges filed, the patients could easily bring about a sexual harassment suit towards the hospital.

Here's just a few notes to help clairfy why the girls were charged legally

* The victim as well as the harasser may be a woman or a man. The victim does not have to be of the opposite sex.
* The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, an agent of the employer, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or a non-employee.
* The victim does not have to be the person harassed but could be anyone affected by the offensive conduct.
* Unlawful sexual harassment may occur without economic injury to or discharge of the victim.
* The harasser's conduct must be unwelcome.


Sexual Harassment types

One-of-the-Gang Often motivated by bravado or competition, or because the harasser(s) think it is funny (AAUW 2006), One-of-the-gang harassment occurs when groups of men or women embarrass others with lewd comments, physical evaluations, or other unwanted sexual attention. Harassers may act individually in order to belong or impress the others, or groups may gang up on a particular target

Bully In this case, sexual harassment is used to punish the victim for some transgression, such as rejection of the harasser's interest or advances, or making the harasser feel insecure about himself or herself or his or her abilities. The bully uses sexual harassment to put the victim in his or her "proper place.


just by these facts alone it's easy to see why these girls were charged.

There is no reason to take the stance you are taking SF, unless you just see it from your view point only and that you wouldn't mind it happening to you. Just because females are stereotypically the "gentler" species does not exempt them from bad behavior.

If the roles were reversed and a male had done these things to women, the uproar would have been tremendous.. why should we cater to some notion of a double standard? Women deserve better than that, even if it means they get in trouble.. because equal means equal on all levels.. not just the non-criminal levels.

Personally, I am on the fence on this one. I can see what they did can and should be considered wrong and very punishable.

However, when I put myself in the "victim's" shoes, I think differently. If I consider myself an old man that can no longer take care of myself and placed in a home full of people just like me, I would be depressed. To add to that, I am essentially waiting for death and don't completely have my wits with me. Even more depressing.

Then a group of attractive to very attractive teenage girls want to rub my penis and put there butts in my face. I have to admit that I would not be complaining at all. Hell, I would thank them and ask them to continue. I would not care if they put a finger in my butt or spit in my mouth. When compared with the reality surrounding me in that home, I would think the "care" given by the girls was a gift from god.

Again, this is just what I think of when I put myself in the place of one of these victims.

I don't think anyone can actually say what they will really think or how they would act when they are old or in a situation like these patients, until it actually happens.

What FF is an important point, and should not be under-estimated. Empathy is an important factor in all of our moral judgments. I have to say that if I place myself in the place of the men in this home, I feel the same as FF does - I would not be complaining. That may sound flippant, but its genuinely my empathetic interpretation. Everyone might not agree, but I believe that many people, and in fact the majority of people, would.

I dont know how anyone can accuse me of sexism. I am an ardent feminist and supporter of women's rights.

I have never said that men cannot be the victim or rape or sexual assault. I understand that homosexual sexual assaults can take place, and I certainly understand that many men may feel a stigma in reporting these crimes - which society must address, and make clear that being a victim is not a thing to be ashamed of.

I am only stating that there are hardly any real cases of a female sexually assaulting an adult male - not that men cannot be victims of sexual assault at all.

__

I think people throw around moral judgments in a very black and white way. Is it really what we want for these young girls to have their lives ruined because of these juvenile and childish actions? If you want to take a legalistic view - yes, some of the actions could be seen as assault. But I call upon everyone to place themselves in this situation and think honestly. As an old man, gravely ill, with declining powers - would you REALLY feel you were a victim if an attractive 19 year old vigoursly rubbed your crotch or stuck her ass in your face?

You can say "the law written down forbids this action which can be interprated in this way" - but if we speak of real common sense justice - can you put your hand on your heart and say in the situation of one of these men you would consider yourself a victim?

It appears their aim was to demean them, not perform sex acts on them. Honestly? I'd take proper care over sexual assault, please.

I completely disagree Baraka - I cannot see any malice in any of these actions. They were thoughtless, childish, over the top certainly - but I see no intention to harm or demean, only peer pressure and a group of over excited young girls

so someone can actually walk up to you and probe your rectum and you'd agree that there is no malice?

I mean you're basis this on a article, you read on the internet.

You can somehow tell the individuals intentions via someone else's writing, while logging on via webserver all the way from the UK?????

that's fricken' amazing!!! You could supplant Uri Geller!

What branch of feminism did you say you subscribe to? :no:

So you're saying it's okay for me to stick my ass into an old man's face for a little fun...if I were only joking?

Strange Famous: If you don't see any malice, you must not be reading any of the articles...which talk about how they did these things in order to upset the patients.

As for calling yourself a feminist...well, I don't know a single self-identified feminist female who would agree with you. Perhaps you don't realize this, but a large part of past discrimination against women had to do with a warped, idealized view of them which denied them their individuality. Much of the reason behind women's sexual repression comes from the belief that they are more "pure" than men, not out of some intent to deny them pleasure. The "feminists" I know - real women who are active and, dare I say, rather feisty about women's rights - would slap you silly for many of the things you've said about women here.

No, Im not saying that it would be ok for you to do that, as - to the best of my knowledge - you are not female.

Feminism doesnt mean that men and women should be treated exactly equally - by any interpretation.

I have already said that if the people in the nursing home were female and the nurses male - these would be outrageous crimes, which should be punished heavily.

This is why I am talking about legalistic moralism against common sense.

If a women grabs a man's butt or a man grabs a woman's butt - common sense and basic human understanding tell us that these are different things and one is an offensive and one isnt. We all know this in our hearts to be true. The moral legalistic approach will say it is the same thing - and I feel it is this approach which is being used in this case.

I would feel like a victim if I were a married old man who had stayed faithful to my wife for 70 years and some tramp decided to grab my dick and stick her finger in my ass without me being able to say or do anything about it. From a purely physical level, I'm sure my nerves would receive signals of pleasure, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't feel ashamed and violated. I would say I was a victim of someone else's desire to use my body in the way they wanted to, regardless of how I felt about it.

The whole problem with that way of thinking is that it ignores the most important aspect of our entire way of life: agency. Your conclusion and that of FF completely ignores the fact that we fundamentally think as a society (at least in nearly all cases) that people have the unalienable right to decide what happens to them and to their body. The fact that they enjoyed it AFTER makes no difference if they did not consent to it BEFORE.

Furthermore, the girls have admitted to doing this to antagonize the patients. They weren't lovers or even stripper or hookers.

And finally, all of your nonsense about the lack of female on male sexual harassment has been torn to tiny, weeping pieces by SM's sources in post 47. Read them and stop embarrassing yourself.

Actually, you are missing the entire import from the article then. These girls were demeaning their victims as they would pose and take pictures, congregate later to retell their stories and have a great laugh about it.

I agree, thoughtless, childish, and over the top. But also demeaning and without regard for the dignity of those who were placed in the care of these people.

The red herring that you raise about the statistical improbability of women abusing men doesn't hold any merit in this case and does not stand up to scrutiny.

You, sir, do not understand "feminism." But don't worry--it's one of the most misconstrued and misunderstood concepts coming out of the 20th century.

Feminists (especially the academics amongst them) would strongly argue against your double-standardism.

If any of the three women in my office grabbed my butt, I would be offended. Period. Without question. I don't desire any physical contact with them other than that required to carry out our jobs and incidental, unavoidable contact from working in close vicinity. That is in no way different than if I grabbed their butt, because I'm pretty sure they feel the same way.

Sexism is making blanket judgments about either sex without looking at the way specific individuals are acting. You are making outrageous assumptions about these girls based solely on things "you know in your heart to be true" and you are making outrageous assumptions about the reactions of the males because "that's how we'd feel if we really stepped into their shoes." You have said that women are gentle by nature and incapable of violence and that if they are violent, they are only violent because they have gender identity disorder. All of that is the very definition of sexism, whatever you want to label yourself.

So in post #18 when you said-

What exactly were you saying or asking? I mean I'm confused which is it- men can't be sexually assaulted by women or they can be but it's rare?

Sir, your positions not only have no basis in fact they seemingly change at will.

Again, you are seriously ill informed on this subject. You've made one false assertion after another and when confronted with actual facts you've simply dug your heels in harder. It's as if you've dug a hole for yourself and in an attempt to get out you asked for a larger shovel.

I do not deny women individuality anymore than I deny men indivisuality... I merely state what most people here also believe, that men and women are different, and have different characters. There are some biological women who are masculine and some biological men who are feminine, certainly... but the basic characteristics of masculine and feminine have some differences.

I no way to I state that women are in any way inferior, nor do I believe that all women are "pure" of sexless. Certainly it is the case that women prefer one partner and men tend to prefer many parters, ie - that women are more faithful than men... this is known to everyone - but it doesnt mean that women enjoy or appreciate sex less.

I put it to you that you in fact are using negative stereotypes of women - claiming that any feminist will be aggressive and "slap silly" people who disagree with them (ie - you are stating that a feminist in fact has the masculine characteristic of physical aggression)

In fact, feminists and women who defend their rights and call for an end of sexism are perflectly feminine, and the myth of the "butch feminist" I feel you are trying to put across is utterly false.

I have been alive 30 years, and I have seen plenty of people get into fights over all sorts of silly things - and Ive never seen a women "slap someone silly" over a political argument yet.

He meant slap silly in the figurative sense of disagreeing vehemently, being offended and bringing up many counter-arguments to your points. He didn't meant they'd come and slap you in the face. And that's not even close to the mark any of us are making in this thread. Care to respond to any of the real issues?

damn dude.. you must get some sweet ganja.

wtf? How is a sexual assault any different based on the perps gender??

fuck me .. you get closer and closer to the edge with every post on this subject.

You are the one who in a different thread talked about how it is cowardly to hit a man while he is knocked down. Yet here, these patients are incapable of many common functions.. yet it is ok for these girls to assault and humiliate them.. because.. they are girls, and girls doing things aren't offensive? If a girl farts.. it's going to stink, just like a mans.


nonsense. complete and utter nonsense to the nth degree.

No, I said someone would slap you silly - and you're smart enough to know I was speaking figuratively - because what you're saying is so absurdly asinine, not just because she's a feminist and would disagree with you.

Don't kid yourself, when you say things like "violence and cruelty are not part of the female character," you are painting with extremely broad strokes that do deny the individuality of women.

EDIT: But Frosstbyte has the right idea. Let's get back to the real issues that you've yet to address.

Isn't your wife supposed to do her own goddamned thesis?

:lol:

This is like reading Thomas Mallory. I can't even wrap my head around your position strange. The things you are claiming are universal truths, and which I know in my heart to be true, I resounding reject in a universal sense. I don't think I can continue this line of conversation.

In a passing sense, I am interested in seeing how this thing plays out. I think if nothing else, this is just a severe case of a serious problem in nursing homes in general. I've heard horror stories from friends who's family members are in facilities for advanced/terminal care. Stealing food being a major issue...I thought it was pretty despicable when someone stole a friend of mine's grandfather's home-cooked cake. Like I said, I wonder how much of this will fall back on the facility in which this occurred? I would be seriously pissed if my parent/grandparent were treated in this fashion. I would wonder if the civil suits are far behind?

Men are perpetually willing sexual objects that all women have rights to at will.

That's the one claim I'm having the most trouble swallowing. (Please correct me if I have it wrong.) It basically means men are second-class citizens and perhaps don't even have autonomy.

For example, if the women with whom I interact consistently touch me in sexual ways, there is nothing I can do about it. If my SO found out about this and wanted to divorce me, I would be at fault because I was a willing participant, automatically, partly (or wholly) due to the fact that I prefer multiple partners by default based on my sex.

Do I have it right?

what can I say I'm good at papers and such..and I want her to hurry up and finish..

plus the promise of head every day for 2 weeks doesn't hurt :lol:

but anyway..

I'd say the civil suits are not far behind. The facility can be held liable on a slew of charges including the sexual harassment that I posted earlier.

Here in Raleigh there is a case similar to this except the caretakers left a man alone for something like 22 hours and didn't monitor him and he died shortly after someone actually did move him. It's all on tape.. civil suits will be forthcoming in that case as well.

---

-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+- This thread has evolved into more of an male vs female equality issue. I'd like to see those hashed in a different thread. Reserve this thread for the talk of the actual case.

You obviously didn't read the police report that was linked earlier then. The girls flat out said that many of the things they did (hands over the mouth, poking in the breasts, poking in the genitals, spitting in their mouths) were simply to make the patients angry, and then they would laugh at them because they were powerless to defend themselves.

If purposefully making someone who cannot defend themselves angry by touching their genitals or spitting in their mouths isn't malicious or demeaning, I don't know what is.

All right, ardent feminist popping her head in.

Sexual assault is sexual assault, period--regardless of the gender/sex of the perpetrator, regardless of the gender/sex of the victim. Assault is assault, and it's pretty clear that assault was perpetrated here.

As a feminist, I believe we should all be equally treated and have equal opportunities. Therefore, I believe that these girls should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We would do the same to teenage boys who did these things, and we should insist on consistency despite sex/gender here. Despite what you may believe, StrangeFamous, women ARE capable of committing violent crimes and doing horrible things, and the law should treat them just as it would a male who committed the same crime.

I feel horrible for those poor, helpless people who were treated that way. My oma died of Alzheimers. I've been in a care facility like the one described. There was no way my oma could have given consent to anything by the time she was there. She had the mentality of an infant.

Well said snowy.

Alas I fear we're beating a dead horse. Either that or SF is having a bit of fun with us. I'm starting to think the latter.