Cynosure

You are correct in that, at least. However, the word I meant to use is polytheism.

Still, I hold my stance on this issue.

Willravel

The "oh cry me a river" issue? Don't you feel that what happened to the people native to North America was unjust? And who does it serve ignoring that part of our (our meaning the United States, not your family) history?

Cynosure

I was not feigning ignorance. Nor was I being obtuse. My point is that even though I'm a U.S. citizen, I will not be held responsible nor feel guilt for any great misdeeds upon Native Americans (or upon African Americans, for that matter) by my great, great grandfather and his generation, and by generations before that.

I believe that the generation that is responsible for a great misdeed, is likewise the generation that should be held responsbile for apologizing and for making reparations for it, e.g. the Germans of WWII. If not that generation, then maybe the next generation after it – but that's as far as it should possibly go. After that, the statute of limitations, so the speak, has run out. If an apology and reparations haven't been made by that time, then it's too late. It will just have to go down in the books as yet another unatoned atrocity in human history.

Willravel

We're still doing it today, Cyno. The US, today, is not holding up to our responsibilities. We are not honoring our treaties with the remaining Native populations. We are ignoring them. We are responsible, today, for many of the incredible problems modern Native Americans face. Since you've made it clear you'll have no responsibility for anything before your birth, do you take responsibility for this?

If you're not sure what I'm talking about, watch this:
Hulu - 30 Days: Life on an Indian Reservation - Watch the full episode now.

Cynosure

The "cry me a river" response was to those up on a soapbox and melodramatically playing the "white man's atrocities to Native Americans" and the "wars and genocide in the name of God" and the "holidays have become homogenized, and are no longer associated with the full and actual historical facts" cards.

Of course it was unjust.

By all means, teach the full, unadultered story in schools. Just, not to a bunch of 5- and 6-year-olds.

As for the bleeding hearts, the politically correct, and those with a huge, generations-long chip on their shoulder: Quit using Thanksgiving as an annual opportunity to get up on a soapbox and admonish the "white man" for his atrocities against Native Americans, which took place generations upon generations ago. Face it, we're all human beings, and thus we're all – no matter our race, religion, creed, or whatever – capable of committing atrocities, if put in to the "right" environment and subjected to the "right" conditions.

roachboy

you know, this conservative "i'm not responsible for the past, even though i benefit from it" line is really tedious. everything about your line of defense, cyno, is tedious--nothing more, nothing less. the only interesting thing about it is the extent to which benefiting from the past becomes part of the landscape, something for which you need accept no responsibility at all. whatever: it's boring.

my actual position on this question was in my first post to the thread. the holiday is double. it is necessarily double. if you had read the thread, or if you were smarter in how you played the game of debate, you would have gone to that point and pushed at it.

but you didn't--instead you preferred to play the victim role. you don't know shit about the past, it comes up, you're the victim. you, and not the people being referenced---you are the ultimate victim of all this.

poor you, having to maybe think about the historical reference point around which this holiday is built. poor you.
cry me a river indeed.

i'll catch you in another thread. done here.

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Cynosure

For quite some time, our government has pretty much ignored all of the downtrodden, in this country. Meanwhile, big business is allowed to run rampant over and take great advantage of the poor and the underpivileged. And don't get me started about how awful it is to be poor and in trouble, and dealing with the U.S. legal system.
-----Added 26/11/2008 at 05 : 14 : 03-----
To me, reading your idiosyncratic misuse of capitalization and carriage returns, roachboy, is tedious. But I endure it.

timalkin

Too many people are constantly looking for ways to point out how evil the white man is. If they're not pointing this out, they're trying to find a reason to take offense at any little thing that could even be remotely related to their pet causes.

I'm all about questioning our institutions and ways of doing things, but you have to draw a line at some point. Taking offense to the behavior of 5 year olds around Thanksgiving is a bit of a stretch. I can't help but to think "soccer mom" and "I've got too much time on my hands, so I'm going to inflict my socialist sociology teacher's half-brained and emotionally-driven rants on whoever will listen."

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dc_dux

I havent read where anyone is "taking offense to the behavior of 5 year olds."

A mother questioned the policy of the school to perpetuate a fable rather than use the opportunity to educate the 5 year olds about a national holiday on a more factual level.

Why cant adults have reasonable discussions about her concerns without raising the "PC boogeyman" or "socialist sociology teacher's half-brained and emotionally driven rant."

Who is really doing the ranting?

timalkin.....How does socialism come into play here?

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filtherton

What are you talking about? Since when is a commitment to historical accuracy the same as "constantly looking for ways to point out how evil the white man is"? I guess, since, you know, white people have done some pretty fucked up shit. Maybe this is one of the instances where reality has a noticeable liberal (you'd probably call it socialist) bias.

I don't really think you're all that interested in questioning institutions. This is only tangentially about the behavior of 5 year olds. It more has to do with what the people in charge of the 5 year olds compel the 5 year olds to do.

The fact that you think this has anything to do with socialism just makes you even more ridiculous.

Speaking of half-brained emotionally driven rants, check out anyone in this thread who has complained about the school's decision to have the kids not wear costumes.

mrklixx

Soooo, anyone that disagrees with you is mentally deficient? Why didn't you just say that in the first place?

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filtherton

No, you're right. It's the socialist soccer moms who are to blame for everything.

mrklixx

First of all, Michelle Raheja and her posse are about as far from "soccer moms" as you can get. Second, as far as I can tell , the first person to bring up socialism was you. And yet you painted everyone with opposing opinions you yours, as a bunch of slack-jawed half-wits. That seems a bit like a prejudicial dehumanizing stereotype to me.

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dc_dux

You might try reading the posts in sequence, starting with timalkin:
I am still trying to understand why timalkin first brought up socialism....it seems kind of slack-jawed amd half-witted to me.

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filtherton

Let me realign your comments, mrklixx:

mrklixx

Post # 13

Post # 48

I accept your apology.


Just in case there is something wrong with your monitor, I have to point out that the first "aligned" comment was not made by me. Therefore it seems pretty obvious that I don't agree 100% with what timalkin said. And yet because I also disagree with you, I get lumped in with your prejudicial dehumanizing stereotype.

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Tully Mars

---

-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+- Whoa! How about everyone take a nice deep breath, inhale, exhale a couple times and pause before making any more snarky/snide posts? Reading through this thread some posts look like you guys are trying to use each other for batting practice. Let's take it down a notch and be a little more respectful, please.

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dc_dux

Preparing left over Thanksgiving turkey and awaiting the annual red alert from the right that the next battle is imminent:

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filtherton

I just thought it odd that you would choose to focus on what I had said instead of what timalkin had said, especially when timalkin said what he said first. He "brought it there" as they say. I thought that someone whose outrage was as searing and bright as yours would focus his rage on everybody who had acted in the way that had ostensibly caused his anger.

I see where you're going, though. I'll send you pictures if I ever dress my kids up as a stereotypical soldiers in the war for Thanksgiving. After you settle down, perhaps we can get together to express our pure and searing outrage at the fact that other people express their outrage.

mrklixx

I don't know where you, or Tully, or anybody else got "rage" out of my posts. I didn't call anybody names. I didn't swear. I didn't make sweeping generalizations about a group of people.

What I did do was concisely, and 100% factually show that it was you who first mentioned socialism. Then I pointed out that I can agree with part of what someone says, without agreeing with everything they say.

So there's no "settling down" to be done since I was not unsettled.

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Tully Mars

Point of clarification- My attempted intervention wasn't aimed at any one member. I read through the thread and it seemed to me that many on this thread were writing long letters on short pieces of paper.

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filtherton

And I pointed out that only disagreeing with one person for saying a particular thing, when more than one person did that particular thing makes your disagreement disingenuous.

I was the first person to mention socialism, but it was in a completely different context. I brought up socialism to mock people who bring up socialism under ridiculous pretenses, and lo and behold, timalkin obliges me by bringing up socialism under a ridiculous pretense. I responded by again mocking him for bringing up socialism under a ridiculous pretense (you apparently agree with the ridiculousness). So you were 100% factually correct that I was the first to bring up socialism. Congratulations. You were also apparently 100% factually unable to place the significance or context of my use of the word socialism.

As for "sweeping generalizations," when I see a nuanced argument in favor of keeping the costumes, one that isn't solely based on the assumptions that tradition is automatically in and of itself valid, or one that isn't based on vapid appeals to the innocence of children I'll rescind my "sweeping generalizations".

Until then, you can cry foul all you want about my "sweeping generalizations"-- it don't matter to me.

mrklixx

I said I disagreed with the concept. I quoted you because you were the lat one to say it.


So do you believe that the pilgrims practiced socialism or not? Because if you don't, then accusing anyone of disingenuousness is......... (wait for it) disingenuous.

How about that I could care less about the "innocence" of these children. I think that they should be made to suffer just like the rest of us were.

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Coolyo

Woah, I thought Thanksgiving was a (even though it may have been a short time, because wars soon followed it) time when Indians and Colonists got along...

How would it be bad to have children dress up as Indians to celebrate that time of cooperation?

It's not like the schools are having the Indians do war calls and hold tomahawks and do massive raids and slaughters on stage... That would be bad.

filtherton

I guess it probably wasn't clear that I was joking when I said that first bit about socialism.

percy

Hmmm,...it's not ok to dress your kid up as a pilgrim and try to leave an impression of a Thanksgiving tradition but it's ok to put Prop 8 buttons on other 5 year olds. Something is not right here Lucie!!

skizziks

I hope in the future, kindergarten kids are forced to dress up like Roachboay, Will, filtherton, cyno, Mrklixx, and everyone else, and re-enact this thread.

3GPositive

My kids will be dressed as animals this year

abaya

Wish I had more time to get into this (or maybe not, heh), but I just wanted to add that when I taught US History to 11th graders and actually DID use bits from Zinn and others, emphasizing as much of the "true history" as I was aware of, myself... I was accused of being (at various times) a communist, a socialist, a democrat (haha), and someone who hated the US. Straight from the parents' mouth, to be sure.

I'll never forget when one 17 year old girl looked up at me, frowning, after I taught about the shit that went down during the whole Panama Canal acquisition/construction, and said, "You're making me feel like America did a lot of bad stuff."

Now, you cry ME a fucking river.

This was in spring 2003... not that they gave a shit about the Iraq war starting, either.

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Tully Mars

Generation have been spoon fed a sanitized version of US history. I find it odd how upset people get when they hear anything even remotely negative regarding our past.

Well guess what? We really did hand out disease ridden blanket to the indigenous population. But we only did that when it turned out shooting them was costing us too many lives. We really did lock up all the American citizens who happened to have Japanese genes. Probably all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence owned slaves. We've started/supported wars in 3rd world countries just to get a better deal on banana's (might be some sugar cane and tobacco in there too.)
People want the "we are the great, always have been, never did anything wrong" BS. Why? I have no idea. I do know recently I watched a show on George Washington's family farm and after a lot of digging and searching they concluded there never was any fucking cherry tree. Well that's not what my 8th grade US history book told me.

The list of crap we've done wrong is probably equally long as the list of shit we did right. I'd hope we could learn from our mistakes, if we keep denying them i hold out little hope.

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Coolyo

I believe that everything factual stated there is true;

However, I've heard that rant so much, it's almost becoming a cliché. Take some Kanchou chill pills, man.

abaya

I found it very odd as well, since when I was a student of history, I was relieved to find out that there was so much more to learn beyond the "let's grow corn using fish that the injuns gave us" thing (as one example). I didn't care if it was negative or positive--what mattered was that it HAPPENED, period, and I wanted to know what happened... even if it was absolutely repulsive and horrible, and never made it into the history books. I mean, that's history... it happened, whether we want to admit it or not. I did not want to take a "chill pill" about it. (Hello, Matrix?)

It bothered me at a very deep level that the students I was teaching did not care to learn what was true. They wanted to "feel good" about their country--they did not want their dreamworld patriotism to be messed with, not even when that unquestioning patriotism witnessed thousands of young men and women of their own age marching off to a foreign war and getting blown up, or not getting blown up but coming home with PTSD and all kinds of other life-changing ailments. They wanted to remain blind, and believe all that was good about America (e.g. WWII)... and covered their eyes and ears when I would show slides of what America had done in other places, accusing me of making things up, that their nation couldn't possibly be guilty of doing anything wrong, ever. It was fundamentally disturbing, as a teacher, to face that kind of reaction in a classroom... and to know that the parents who were reinforcing those beliefs on the other side, were a brick wall that I could only bang my head against.

Sometimes though, very rarely, I contemplate going back to teach US History and fighting that massive brick wall in American public education. Sometimes I think it's the most responsible thing that I could be doing with my time (particularly since I already have the qualifications for it, so I could step right back into it with my teaching certificate and advanced degree). But sometimes I don't want to think about facing that wall again... it all feels so pointless at times. It's the same feeling I get around here sometimes.

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roachboy

sometimes it seems that ignorance is understood in the states as a fundamental human right. you could say that the states finds itself in the trouble it's currently experiencing in part because the ideological backdrop against which arguments concerning the world gets formulated is rigid, one-dimensional and naturalized. the way "history" is presented in public school is of a piece with the larger tendency to conflate existing political arrangements with nature--it's where the logic gets rehearsed.

fantasy is seamless: it follows that folk would prefer it.

but maybe relativizing the past. dealing with ambiguity and/or problems, is a privilege of fading empire.
we'll soon find out.

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it make you sick.

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abaya

Right. What bothers me is that a teacher who wants to present "history" differently (gasp, more accurately!) in those public schools, runs a risk of being mown down by those bloody helicoptering parents who want the public system to participate in the false-consciousness-producing behavior that they have worked for 15-18 years to instill in their own home and teenagers' brains. It's almost as if they want the public school to be their own little private school... "don't mess with my (or my child's--same thing) worldview... or I'll get you fired. And that's my RIGHT." Sheesh. So much for "education." Regrettably, I don't think I will teach again in public schools if it means I have to weigh my own job security against my own teaching philosophy, which is to teach history AS IT HAPPENED, not as people (parents) would like to believe that it happened in order to prop up their own sense of manifest destiny.

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Tully Mars

Unless you are financially forced or can find a school that's a really good fit I wouldn't do it. I hit a brick wall in the justice system when I transfered from one county to another. I went from a system where the rules and laws mattered to one where they were merely "suggestions." And the ends justified the means at every turn. I banged my head on a brick wall there for eight years. I ended up talking an early retirement. My chill pill these days looks a lot like a sunny beach.
-----Added 4/12/2008 at 09 : 44 : 19-----
I believe if you met me you'd find I'm a very chilled person, no medication needed. I just find some things amazing. Hitler? Bad guy, everyone (ok almost everyone) agrees Hitler was evil. The guy wanted to wipe out entire race of people. Yet step back 50,60 or 70 years from Hitler and the US was trying to wipe out the indigenous population, an entire race(s?) of people. Travel around Germany and I think finding a statue of Hitler will not be an easy task, in fact I think any such display would be illegal. Travel around the western US and you'll find several statues of "heroes" of the "Indian wars."

In the end it may work out for what's left of the tribal population in the US. They seem to be winning back the county one hand of black jack at a time.

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abaya

In some ways I agree (hence why I am not really entertaining thoughts of going back to teach full-time at all), but on the other hand... what would happen if everyone had the same attitude and just gave up on the public system? If things look bleak now, what would they look like for the next generation if they all had shitty teachers who conformed to the party line, etc etc?

I can't let myself believe that the whole system is so fucked up that everyone with a brain and a conscience should abandon it. There has to be something salvageable there... not all of the kids/parents are so reprehensible (I sure did get a lot of kids interested in Iceland back then, hahaha!). A few of them do like to learn. I think what frustrated me is that I had mostly the screw-up kids (as a first year teacher), while a lot of other teachers jockeyed to get AP and Honors kids, etc... and those were the ones who really cared, and whose parents encouraged them to learn the truth, etc. I don't know how fair those divisions are, but I do know that there was a marked difference between the average kid I was teaching, and the average kid that my neighbor teachers had, who would join Model UN and Science Olympiad and all the rest. I just didn't know how to bridge the gap.

If I did go back, I would be afraid of losing my job at times, but I would also feel like it was my responsibility to teach the truth... and if my head rolls as a result, then so be it. I'd move on. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't stop fighting the good fight... or does it??!!

Gaah, I still have one year left of my idealistic 20s, can you tell?
-----Added 4/12/2008 at 09 : 51 : 13-----
Indeed, the tribal casinos (at least in WA state) are a unique demonstration of karma.

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Tully Mars

I'm no artist, stick figures are at times beyond by capabilities. But one day in court while waiting for a case I was doodling. I drew a little cartoon. Two frames. One side had a Union soldier offering blankets and whiskey to an Indian. The next frame had an Indian telling a guy at a black jack table "of course you can double down on those 10's" It was a doodle in the front page of my day runner for a long time. One day a clerical worker in my office saw it and asked "I get the guys offering booze to the Indians but what's under the bottles of booze?" Blankets I told her. She said something to the effect of "So, he wants him to be warm after he gets drunk?" I told her we gave blankets laden with small pox to the Indians, was cheaper and easier then bullets. She thought that was completely false said that was the craziest thing she ever heard. She was 20+ years older then me and a product of the 40-50 education system. Considering many believe we continued to hand out infected blanket well beyond the turn of the century I have no doubt this is a fact she did not learn in school.

It's not just an American thing either. I spent six months living in Japan. The version of WWII and it's causes they learn differ from that taught in US schools by a shocking margin. I had a conversation one day with a friend I met there. He knew Japan had troops in China, but thought it was mainly to keep the Chinese from invading Japan. So you invaded another country to keep them from invading you? Why does that sound familiar? I didn't ask him what he knew about how the Japanese treated POW's.

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The Faba

Oops... our bad.