My thoughts exactly. Thank you for articulating this! I wonder sometimes how people who come to a board whose purpose is the "evolution of humanity, *sexuality*, and philosophy can be so durned closed-minded sometimes.

Most people agree pretty much that if two consenting adults are doing something that's not hurting anybody, they should be left alone. The problem is people who argue that things like prostitution, smoking marijuana, homosexuality somehow "damage our society". They point to crime (if drugs and sex were legal they would be regulated and probably wouldn't attract the fringe crimes that they do now), moral decline (puh-leeze), and "won't somebody please think of the children!?". I guess it is a values question - I value tolerance and freedom more than I value conformity and security. I enjoy being surrounded by people who are different than I am, who think and act differently, and I think our society would be a lot MORE moral if we all extended just a bit of compassion and understanding and quit getting so damned uptight about everything.

/soapbox

<b>Exactly</b> my thoughts. I couldn't agree with you more.

While I <b>like</b> when people agree with me, I tend to learn more from those with opposing viewpoints.

after calling my mother who is a psychologist who treats sex offenders in prison, i can say that is completely untrue.

also, while i am not morally against prostitution, i do have concerns over how it could be enacted safely and responsibly regulated. it's not quite as easy as "oh, wear a condom".

Lurkette & Bill O' Rights, we are on the same page.

My problem, and it's big one, is with those that would come to these boards and lacking clear, concrete arguments for their positions, fall back on rhetoric and dogma and worse, start slinging words like *homo* around.

Bring on the opposing viewpoints, but please articulate them in a way that you do not belittle those that may have a different lifestyle than you. It makes you sound extremely narrow minded.

Most experts would point out that rape is about power and not sexual gratification.

Show me a wealthy older guy in a flash car . . and I will show you his cute, curvy pretty girlfriend!

Maybe if females stopped using their sexuality as a form of currency . . . . . . . . . . . ? Pretty girls dont need qualifications or high-flying careers if they are drop dead gorgeous. An 18 year old with big boobs and a killer smile can wrap a 50 year-ld captain of industry around her little finger.

So lets face it . . if you are an ugly guy with a bit of cash its the only way you are ever going to get close to a total babe . . . . . you see the 'nice' girls ignoring you and holding out for a rich handsome guy and you think "fuck this, I 'm just going to pay for it!" . . . . . . . . . . . . so everyone who is against it should stop 'moralising' . . .its a double-edged sword.

Funny how a rise in crime happens when something illegal moves in.

The solution, make it legal and regulate/tax the shit out of it. The associated crime should decrease. Example: Nevada where the counties that have legal brothels have very low crime rates.

Look what happened during prohibition. Made something common illegal, crime goes through the roof. Unfortunatly when alcohol became legal again, organized crime was already well established and it took decades to get it under control. Especially since the organized crime moved to exploiting other criminalized victimless activities like drugs and prostitution.

Okay, this kind of statement makes me wonder what century you are living in.

Since looks are subjective, we'll just make ballpark generalizations.
Percentage-wise, how many women are drop-dead gorgeous???

Subjectively, maybe 50% of women are average-looking, 20% in the pretty range, 20% in the less than average range, 5% ugly, 5% drop-dead gorgeous.

Why even bother making a statement that applies to at most, 5% of females?

Government regulation has worked out so well in all other industries the government regulates. Amtrak is doing so fabulously well, Enron, the California power generation industry, military contractors, etc.

Define faulty logic.

You seem to be assuming that:

1. This has never before been debated in the history of the U.S.
2. That just because the majority doesn't agree with you they must somehow be wrong.
3. What are elections and lawmaking all about if not majority rules? Everything gets voted on. The majority wins.
4. Has it ever occurred to you that anti-drug and prostitution laws are made by people who are older than yourself, have "been there, done that", and know the pain and suffering a really bad decision can bring?

Prostitution is a victimless act (I refuse to call it a "victimless crime"). No one is getting hurt, someone just wants to have fun and pay for it. People go to amusement parks, don't they? :D

there is a big difference between regulating and actually running an industry (like amtrack or usps)

matter of fact, govt regulates many industries.

banking (sets the reserve ratio, interest rates etc..)
look @ the fed bureaucracy! their purpose is to regulate!

Ummm paying for it is kind of the point. :)

I don't understand this point of view. You would never go to a prostitute. Great! Fine. No problem.

I don't get the position that they will "pay for it".
Is it disease? Hell unpaid for sex can result in disease.
Is it my morality? I don't see what this has to do with anything. If I am seeing a prostitute I'm OK with it in the first place.

Sex is sex. I think one of the main problems people who have a problem with prostitution have is that they equate the emotional attachment of sex with a loved one with the physical act of sex in general. Sometimes I don't want to make love I just want to fuck.

Someone once said that those who pay for sex are actually paying for the woman to leave. A bit crass perhaps but for many not far from the truth. All they want is the sex.

That said I know a number of men that visit prostitutes who are better off for the "relationships" they have with their regular. For whatever the reason (weight, personality, etc.) they don't or can't have a regular relationship with women. This is their only outlet for sex and (quite frequently) contact with women.

Another interesting thought... women who sell their bodies for sex aren't (neccessarily) being exploited. If you want to see exploitation try visiting a sweatshop where women are making less than $5 an hour. Prostitutes make good money.

Ive been on dates that ended with me thinking that I would have been better off hiring a professional. If there was a way to regulate regular STD testing (kind of like health care workers having to undergoing HIV testing if they get stuck) it shouldnt be an issue. In the US the freedom to live in communities like the Amish exsists.

Along those same lines should there be any laws against having multiple wives, or husbands? Or a few other things I wont mention.

Actually, the US is NOT a democracy, despite what your teachers told you. We are a democratic republic. Our founding fathers where very carefull to create a constitution designed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. The rule of law is there to protect the innocent. It should not be used to protect us from ourselves. We have the right to "pursue happiness" and if two people think it will make them happy to participate in a financial sexual arrangement, then they should be allowed too. Whether it actually makes them happy or not is irrelevent.

even though i don't endulge in it, i agree that it should be legal and taxed along with marijuana. if people are gonna do it no matter what, they should at least make some money off of it. it's a huge market. besides, people like to do illegal things for that risk factor. making certain things legal would probably drive the rates of occurance down a whole lot.

morality should be a choice not a legal requirement...

That does not add up - AMS (Amsterdam ) should then have more crime than most. Same should be true of London,Praha,Frankfurt....

Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. So, why isn't selling fucking legal?

I suppose that it makes sense that prostitution is illegal in most areas of the US, because the majority of lawmakers is opposed to it. What I don't understand is <i>why</i> they are opposed to it. If it's a religious stance, whatever happened to separation of church and state? If it's a moral stance, I don't particularly see the moral dillema of sex as a business. Hell, sexuality is like THE American business. Sex sells and is sold everywhere. Except the act of sex itself, which is still sold, but illegally.

With something like this, where the impact to people not involved is nil, I do not see the problem with it. Legalization would reduce the negative aspects of this business. Of course, I also think that legalized drugs would improve the drug situation since it would basically eliminate any sort of black market activities related to drugs and drug related violence. People on drugs can still be a threat to society though, so obviously, that would not be as safe, overall, as legalized prostitution. Still, my point is that, even though I don't use non-medical drugs and don't engage in prostitution, I can see no good reason to outlaw prostitution and a few benefits of legalization.

In reponse to:

I am beginning to believe...

In response to your question: "Why prostitution?" Well, people want sex. Unfortunately, there are not always people who will have sex with them for free, so, depending on how much they want sex, they value sex at some value. If they can get sex for less than this value, they will. Prostitution is just the economic market for sex. There is also a more concealed market, that of dating. For some people, not everyone mind you, just those looking for sex, not really an emotional relationship, a relationship is just a means to get sex. A relationship has some cost in terms of financial and time investments. This is just the same as prostitution, only less obvious and much less illegal.

In response to LittleOralAnnie (no offense intended, you seem like a nice person, but I think we differ ideologically)

I do not think that everyone who goes to a prostitute does sick and twisted things to live out their horny little fantasies. From your post, I gather you have a lot of disdain for people who engage in prostitution. Obviously, you view sex in a much different way then they do. This does not make either of you wrong, however, as that seems to just be a matter of perspective/opinion. The reason that you have your opinion may be suspect. You may wish to carefully analyze why this is.


You see what they do as morally wrong. You don't offer a whole lot of explanation as to why you see it that way, unless that's what the third sentance is about. But I fail to see how diseases and morality relate. Nor do I see how the law and morality relate, besides that the law is generally instituted in order to create a more moral society. Crime, in itself, is not immoral. And as for any negative moral implications of pimp daddies, they are not necessary, I should think, especially with legalized prostitution. If necessary, THEY could be outlawed. Still, I see no reason to outlaw prostitution.


It certainly seems that it is mainly desparate women who are engaging in the selling side of prostitution, but it is their choice. I do not think they get paid a shitload of cash real fast, because if they did, and if it was as truly despicable as you portray it, I should think that all the women would quit pretty fast and go get more enjoyable jobs. But what if the women enjoy sex, and prostitution (hypothetically). Is it wrong to get paid to do something you enjoy? Perhaps they would rather have money than respect. Perhaps they don't value respect. Perhaps they don't see it as selling their body, but simply as a service industry that they have no objections to working in.


Well, I think the health and life risking could be eliminated with proper govermental controls, certification, and legalization. As for morals, I still don't see the moral base for making prostitution illegal. Self image sounds like more of a personal problem to me, and I think that if prostitution affects your self image, that is your business.

Counter arguments welcome.

Nyenrodian: I am liking your country better already :)

I have often wondered what is involved with moving to another country. Another day and another thread, perhaps.

Hm.. Well here in sweden we are a little backwards i think... it is perfectly legal to sell sex.. but it is striclty illegal to buy sex.. Hehe... That is base on the idea that the prostitutes are victims being abused and the johns are rapists and murderers.. Hmm.. don't ask me.. i don't know where that idea comes from.

In my opinion: LEGALIZE IT! That is the only way to make it safe..
It is always going to exist so why the he** try to illegalize it?
No matter how disgusting/perverse/morraly wrong/sinfull we think it is it will always exist as it has always existed..
To some sex is currency (not only prostitutes) and that means it has a marketvalue, if it has a value someone want's to sell to gain profit and someone want's to pay for the pleasure.

'nuf said.

*shrug* I'd never go for it. I'm not into casual sex, didn't even troll for tail at bars when I was single. I do think it shouldn't really be a crime, being inherently victimless (unless you count the prostitute, and that is usually because of the circumstances surrounding the prohibition on prostitution).

Beware the law of unintended consequences.

That's a law now?

Seriously though, what do you mean?

prostitution has brought us many things like the spread of STDs and the word FUCK

did you know fuck is an accronym for

Fornication under concent of the King

used to be posted back in the old country above the doors of prostitution houses.

I'm undecided on the issues there are a lot of things i disagree with that go on in and around areas that involve prostitution. However the act itself I have no problem with.

Looking at the big picture though i do think the laws are in the right place.

Although this thread seems to have died down, I thought this might reinvigorate it. Any thoughts?

The government already does make money off of Prostitution. It's a neverending cycle. There are busts all the time where they take the prostitutes in, fine them, and send them back out to the streets to do their jobs. Maybe a month later they'll do another bust and so on....

Sorry I just don;t agree that it doesn't hurt any one. Ask any forum memeber if they would want their child prostitutng for a living and you will get a (virtually unanamous)"NO"

The fact is simply that prostitution is the most debasing and menial work a person can do. Most prostitutes are degraded by their customers on a regular basis. No one should be subject to that.

Just one man's opinion....

Vermin makes the most powerful point here.

If it was a legal buisness you wouldn't have the pimp problem. Keeping it illegal helps the pimps just like the "war on drugs" keeps the drug dealers in buisness.

prostitution vs porno
 

People get paid in the porn industry, people get paid in the prostitution "industry". The only reason I call it "industry" is people make a living doing this. They are the same thing in my eyes, but I have a cataract.

It's legal here, I don't see any problem with it, it takes a certain type of person to become a prostitute, and another type to visit one - so I don't think it's responsible for any moral breakdowns in society.

Wasn't it Madison who was afraid of appeasing the masses? Just because a majority thinks something in a democracy doesn't neccesarily mean that should be the law. Obviously we have regulations and systems to protect minority "fringe groups" for this very reason. Otherwise by this logic, as long as a majority of people thought it was okay to enslave others, then it would be legally justifiable. However this alientates natural rights and a whole mess of complicated things ;) I'm not trying to compare this to whether or not a community bans prostitution because of their moral beliefs, but I'm trying to make an argument against the general principle of what you're saying.

Jefferson claimed that the purpose of the government was to make roads and deliver the mail (loose quote). IE, moral issues were taken care of inside the household, but it wasn't the place of the government to worry itself in those kinds of affairs.

I have used prostitutes in the past when I was going through a girlfriend drought and didn't want to go through the bs of a relationship just to get sex. I exchanged money for a service, and it was over. We all pay for sex in one way or another (either through dates, emotionally, etc.). I see no problem with it being regulated. In fact, it might help to take the people who prey on young girls naivete (i.e. pimps) out of their lives.

You know it's weird. I am completely grossed out by the thought of paying a prostitute for sex, but have no problems if someone else wants to do that.

In fact I've often thought about attempting to collect money from some of the less attractive women who've approached me. Simply pop a viagra and get paid... -What a dream job.

I wouldnt personally pay for sex but I can see why some people do, and surely if the government made it legal then they would have some protection. Its the same as selling any other good or service, they need trading standards etc.

Rape has nothing to do with sex, it's all about power. legalizing prostitution wouldn't do it a bit of good.

I don't see how consentual sex can be made illegal if not done involving minors. It's stupid IMHO and kinda done just to be "moral". As long as the RULES of prostitution are enforced, I wouldn't think anything would go wrong with it legalized.