Cynosure

...at least, any Chinese-made goods to be ingested into the body, human or otherwise.

What we're dealing with now are Chinese companies/factories that are so corrupt and greedy, they produce milk and milk products tainted with melamine, an industrial chemical – and not accidentally, mind you! – that has resulted in tens of thousands of children getting seriously ill. This sinks lower, much lower, than the hundreds of pets that were sickened, with many of them dying, by Chinese-made, melamine-tainted pet food. (When was that? Less than a year ago?)

The other day, I was reading about Cadbury's having to recall Chinese-made, melamine-tainted chocolates. But it wasn't that big of a news story - no worry, none of those chocolates found their way into the U.S. (Note, I'm being sarcastic here.) But now a Chinese-made, melamine-tainted candy has been found in the U.S. ...

Candy with chemical in Chinese milk found in Conn. - Yahoo! News

Man! Here is the long-time storied Halloween candy that is laced with poison! It's no longer just an urban legend, folks.

Why has the world been putting up with this crap? Why is the U.S. putting up with it?

Like I said: It's time to put a total stop to importing any Chinese manufactured goods that are meant to be ingested. No more second chances, no more grace periods. Recall all Chinese-made products to be ingested, and let those yet to be distributed, rot in their shipping containers at the docks. And any local companies/businesses that suffer for it: Too bad! That's what you get for making such a Faustian deal. And those Chinese companies/factories that manufacture these goods? They can go to hell.

kutulu

Yeah that's not going to happen. Do you have any idea how much processed food (and even meats and fresh produce) is made in China?

However, we are attempting to buy as few things from China as possible for this exact reason. I'm not taking that chance.

sadistikdreams

This is why I try to buy only American made products.

Not only do I not get poisoned, I help lessen the strain on the gas crisis.

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The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials."
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roachboy

that's kinda funny.
how exactly do you determine which commodities are and are not made in china?
does this extend to components of commodities which are not "made in china" because the assembly plants are located somewhere else?

contemporary capitalism is way ahead of you---there's no effective distinction at the level of commodities between china and down the street from where you live. if there's a production facility near you, and it is owned by a corporation of any size, it's stock is held internationally. nothing is located anywhere in particular at the level of production. it's all part of that Great Big Detachment of Markets from the rest of social life that you've been conned into thinking means something.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynosure

Dude, I'm not trying to start some kind of grass-roots "buy U.S.A." movement. I'm just saying we need to stop importing goods manufactured by China that are meant for ingestion, because their companies/factories are so corrupt, they purposely put industrial chemicals into their goods.

That's part of capitalism, too, you know: discontinuing doing business with companies/factories that produce defective and/or harmful products, especially if they're produced that way on purpose.
-----Added 2/10/2008 at 02 : 45 : 22-----
I have a pretty good idea.

Well, if it truly cannot be done (which I think is debatable), then we truly have made a deal with the devil.

pan6467

I have often asked why we would trade with a country that hates us. I believe that they can put anything in the food they ship, in the soles of shoes that are activated by sweat, and so on to truly fuck us over.

Paranoid perhaps, but why allow this scenario to be a possibility? Just for cheaper good?

We live in a country that no longer produces anything..... what that means is our economic future will be getting worse, trade deficits will rise and we will be forced to continue to buy cheaper goods from countries that mean us harm, to which the possibility of those scenarios become more and more realities.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

thingstodo

I personally consume as much as possible that is local and organic. I stay far, far away from processed foods with a few exceptions. I don't each much meat and the meat I do eat is easy to source and doesn't come through the genetic, anti-biotic fueled system. And we eat based on the season so we can easier obtain locally grown produvts.

I sure hope with all that effort I'm able to avoid anything made in China since most durable goods have a country of origin printed on them someplace. I also just read that food labeling will soon require the country of origin to be labeled.

Sadly, I think it is our greedy companies purchasing crap from over their because it is cheep.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Martian

I'm curious to know how you came to the conclusion that the contamination was intentional.

The United States is not economically capable of severing ties with China.

__________________
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I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

roachboy

the industrial food system has problems of contamination way more often than anyone would like, and it's never "intentional"---white rabbit candies are produced in huge volumes (and they're yummy) so i don't see the intentional aspect of it either.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynosure

The melamine was put in there intentionally, not accidentally, because the manufacturers were trying to deceive the examiners into thinking the milk product had more protein in it than it actually does.

Thus, this is not comparable to, say, beef that was unintentionally infected with e. coli, or to produce that was carelessly contaminated with salmonella.

kutulu

It has been widely reported that the melamine was added intentionally.

I agree on the second part though.

Cynosure

True. But when was the last time the U.S. industrial food system manufactured a product that was so screwed up, intentionally or not, that it led to nearly 53,000 people (most of those, children) becoming ill, with more than 12,800 hospitalizations and several deaths?

Daniel_

When was the last time that 1/4 of the world's population lived in the US?

You can't simply say 53,000 people became ill without considering how many millions used the formula in question.

Personally I find it interesting that Americans who have challenged European over-regulation for decades are now realising that there can be benefits to more regulation in several areas. Welcome to the party guys, pull up a chair - we've been saving you a space since the 1950's.

__________________

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And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
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skizziks

And the funny thing is, I can't buy certain cheese from France or certain meat from Italy because the products have not been pasteurized or somehow over purified and they might be dangerous, even though everyone else gets to eat them and enjoy them. (This has little to do with the discussion, I'm just bitching)

Bear Cub

You think consumer products are bad, you should see how bad the structural steel is that holds together both fossil and nuclear power plants...

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Cynosure

A valid point. However, my counterpoint to that, is this: Even if a country has a population of over a billion, it does not lessen the tragedy and the severity of nearly 53,000 members of that population becoming seriously ill from ingesting milk purposely tainted with an industrial chemical.

Or perhaps we should paraphrase Joseph Stalin, and say, "One person getting gravely ill from drinking tainted milk is a tragedy – but 53,000 people getting ill from that, is a statistic."

Whatever. China's population is, what, about four times that of the United States? Well, then... When was the last time the U.S. industrial food system manufactured a product that was so screwed up, intentionally or not, that it led to over 13,000 people (most of those, children) becoming ill, with more than 3,200 hospitalizations?
-----Added 2/10/2008 at 07 : 00 : 22-----
Well, evidently China "hates" its own children.

Charlatan

You see, the thing is... you can argue all you want about not importing food from China but unless Cadbury had told you you would never know that the milk products it used in its chocolates came from China. The label on says who manufactured it and where (e.g. Cadbury in New Hampshire... or somewhere in the west). The lable does not tell you that they sourced their processed coco from Venezuela, their processed milk from China, their processed cane sugar from Indonesia and their high fructose corn syrup from the US.

Globalization has flattened the world to the point where, in many cases, you cannot say where the components for your new handheld device or your processed chocolate bar come from...

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

The_Jazz

There has been a huge uptick in interest in Product Recall Insurance Coverage from importers of Chinese products in the last 90 days.

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filtherton

The free market at work.

genuinegirly

I am frustrated by the melamine incident.
Rather than punishing an entire country, as the OP suggests, why don't we focus on the problem - trace the manufacturers who have used melamine and blacklist them.

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Charlatan

But then how will Ikea manufacture is flat packed furniture (laminated in melamine)?

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

Nimetic

I think the babies are what matters here. The risk to adults in other countries is low.

lotsofmagnets

+1

carry on, nothing to see here

__________________
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she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

thingstodo

Take out the word people and substitute with pets (dogs & cats) and you'll remember the last time many were hospitalized or killed. Our companies bought crap from China and tested it with cheap tests that didn't find what was really there.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Nimetic

This is just knee-jerk nationalism surely.

We might as well say that it's time to stop allowing financial ties with US companies, because they are clearly dishonest and poorly regulated.

pan6467

I know this is a bit off target and will gladly open a new thread on this to carry a discussion.

I believe if ALL companies that did business in the US {i.e. sold goods, in sourced services, etc} were forced to pay US minimum wages, benefits and corporate taxes, along with have the same regulations {worker's comp, worker's rights, pollution controls and so on} Fewer companies would outsource, fewer companies would look overseas for "cheaper labor and less regulations", more product would be made in America.

I am not against free trade, I am against one country having to play by rules others won't, import tariffs are a good example. US steel is still the strongest best made steel, BUT we are getting killed because we have rules to follow and are taxed to death in other countries while sub par steel made in those countries receive subsidiaries from their governments and are taxed extremely low here.

I am a firm believer that countries need to produce their own goods as much as possible and rely on other countries only for what they cannot produce.

If we are to globalize the world economy, then ALL nations need to play by the same rules. Until that happens, we will look for the cheapest labor and the "shortcuts" and keep having poisons in our food supplies and unsafe products.

Anyone remember the Chinese made toys that contained lead sold here a few years ago?

It's pathetic that those who believe Capitalism is so great and that we have the greatest economic society and freest country ever..... are so willing to allow this country to trade with countries that hate us. It is pathetic that those who cry for human rights and talk about how evil "waterboarding" is or how the Chinese have very few civil rights, or how these countries have blood thirsty dictators.... yet will gladly ship jobs over there, send our money over and demand we have lower tariffs so that these countries can thrive and continue paying kids pennies a day, while we watch factories close, businesses go bankrupt and thousands lose good paying jobs to work at Wal Mart or McDonald's. Not to mention watching tax revenue decrease because there are no factories, no production here.... and what little there is has to either be taxed more to make up for the losses or they get tax abatements from cities, counties and states who tax the people more to make up for the lost revenue.

But what do I know? No one fucking cares, it's all about buying the cheapest product because we can't even afford what we make here. Then when shit like the OP happens, tainted pet food, lead painted toys, etc etc ..... it's news for a minute then no one cares anymore and no one wants to think about it or demand change.

Scary days these are.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Charlatan

Pan... you can't have it both ways. Either the market is free, or it isn't. Either there is free trade, or there isn't.

What you are asking for is increased regulation and this runs counter to the ethos of your "free country".

If you are for free markets and free trade... then you will have to take these negative aspects. Your nation will have to adapt. It will have to change.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

thingstodo

Not to put words in pan's mouth but it sure would help if there was enough information to make a global decision. If I don't know a product contains stuff from a country I don't want to globalize with if I don't have enough information to make my decision.

I will do my utmost best to avoid any products containing Chinese food ingredients. I also refuse to shop at Wal-Mart because they are one of the reasons behind cheapness in the way they do business to force the hand of companies that want to be in their stores. Wal-Mart killed Levis.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

pan6467

You are right, it's more fair trade than free.

I also see it as keeping countries and people down. Countries with very little industry that rely on manufactured goods from their countries usually have extremely poor citizenry and bad economies. Whereas, a country that is self reliant has a very good standard of living, a booming economy and can educate their people to advance.

It is impossible to adapt when the other players will change the rules to keep you down. For example, as long as other countries, like China, subsidize their steel industry, keep high tariffs on ours and we don't tariff theirs because we "play by the rules" our steel industry will continue to falter. We can blame wages and benefits and lower them so we can match prices to some degree at home, but overseas we still don't stand a chance.... and here we lower our standard of living severely. I thought we were supposed to show the world how great a free market could be, how it promoted higher standards of living not lower them.
-----Added 5/10/2008 at 12 : 33 : 24-----
I wholeheartedly agree.

They also killed RubberMaid not to mention lowered quality standards on goods so as to have repeat business.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The Faba

*Applause*

Seriously, there needs to be minimum standards of health, quality, etc... instituted for global trade in this world. Not to say that all countries would have to join - it should be more of a 'We won't import or export these goods that fail to meet these standards with or from other countries in this group' thing.

That way, countries that say 'Fuck the proles' can import their lead baby spoons and those who want to have a higher quality of life are guaranteed one. Of course, there would have to be harsh penalties for trying to sneak things through and whatnot.

Ayashe

This sounds so incredibly easy even a child could solve it right? The issue is not necessarily in the minimum standards but with the enforcement. Chinese products have one of the highest rates of being refused entry within the U.S., the method is there to inspect, unfortunately there are not the means to enforce it as it should. I read recently that approximately 1% of all imports are inspected, why? Because there are not enough inspectors to keep up with the demand. Why aren't there? Because inspectors cost money, they cannot be everywhere at once. Unfortunately rather than raise the fees on the importation of products to ensure safer inspections we limit ourselves, picking and choosing which to examine. It happens in all Industries, from child care to restaurants.

If we cannot in the U.S. manage to control our inspections in a manner to keep our people safe we either should refuse to import the goods or pass heavy punishments onto the American manufacturers that receive these products and use them in their industries. Force the companies to police themselves or face indefinite closures.

Charlatan

If you really want to increase inspections on imports but do not want the government (read: the citizens) to pay for this then just make strong laws with significant consequences that punish those who import the goods. Make the importers liable for their products.

If the consequences are significant enough, this will do a few things:

1) it will cause the importers to put pressure on their suppliers to provide them with products that meet the standards.
2) it will raise the price of imports
3) it will level the playing field (or make it closer to level) when comparing the costs of imports vs. domestic

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

curiousbear

Why see the problem as a 'Chinese problem'? It is rather a bad goods supplier. The manufacturer should be severely penalized with Chinese govt assistence.

Cheap and Best - does such a thing exist?

pan6467

We used to do that with "most favored nation status" and trade embargoes and so on.

What has happened is BOTH parties and from what I see BOTH candidates prove that they would rather keep the "free trade" as it is because the ultra rich continue to accumulate wealth while the chasm between rich and poor grows.

One party does it because ultimately they are controlled by big business and while some may want to change that the leaders of that party are too deep into the pockets of big business and are afraid to lose their power. They would rather sacrifice good politicians in their party that want change than to lose their power. Think Contract with America..... great concept, great sales pitch didn't do shit for true change except give them more power.

The other party thrives in economic downturns and when the rich get richer. hus they can promise HUGE ass tax paid programs that in the long run turn into albatrosses and do more damage than they do good. But they get power and with power comes money and control. Think Affirmative action, welfare and so on.... they put those programs in knowing the end results are people will turn to them for help and that they can threaten if they lose power those programs the people are addicted to and need will be in danger.

So in the end we have opened pandora's box so to speak and we can't close it. There would be no power or wealth for them to gain by closing it.

We do that also, try to control what comes in, but when so much comes in and so few samples are checked it makes it very easy to slip anything they want in and no one to know until people get sick.

It makes me truly wonder what gets through that we do not know about.
-----Added 6/10/2008 at 01 : 44 : 40-----
That would work if we paid attention. But we don't. We read or hear about our pets, kids, people getting sick... but unless it truly is someone close and affects us we ignore it and the press buries it.

If more people stood up and truly made a stink over it all, maybe something would be done. But as long as there is no outcry and the press can bury it and make it look not as bad as it is.....no one will truly stand up against it and be taken seriously.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynosure

There are some U.S. companies that are corrupt and greedy, for sure. But the level of corruption and greed among some Chinese companies is on a whole other plane of Hell, and a much deeper one at that.

If and when a U.S. company is ever found to be so corrupt and greedy, that they purposely spike milk products with industrial chemicals like melamine – milk products that are likely to be consumed by babies and children, mind you! – then we can talk about stopping financial ties with U.S. companies.

Until then, STFU with your accusations of "knee-jerk nationalism". That's not what this is about.
-----Added 6/10/2008 at 11 : 06 : 37-----
How about adding the cost of insepctions to the price of the goods? You know, simply make it part of the cost of doing business with foreign companies, especially with those with a record of producing hazardous products?

roachboy

i agree with pan about a universal minimum wage. i think that'd have a wide range of desirable effects. one of them would be a re-regionalization of production because it would wipe out the advantage to be had by locating a production facility in a state with the most repressive labor laws and weakest regulations/enforcement, etc.

but until that happens, you have transnational flows of goods and intense downward pressure on wages and costs. the walmart approach dontcha know--cheap commodities uber alles. if they're safe too, that's nice. but cheap is a priority. and if you find a problem with that, in the upside down world of neoliberalism, then you're not with the volk. what is entailed by cheapness is not a concern. cheap is an end in itself.


as for customs inspections===back in the day i worked in logistics. a) the type of inspections that customs would do are not designed to check on product safety except insofar as (1) it might involve importing insects or other stuff that threatens the bio-balance in the states or (2) there might be problems of handing (spoilage etc.)---but that's an equipment problem and is treated as such. inspection might happen if for some reason there's a discrepency between that the bill of lading/invoices say and what's actually been shipped, but the orientation is revenue first.
it is up toi the fda to issue guidlines and/or restrictions that would snag classes of goods as they are imported---that typically works pretty well except that the guildines are by necessity reactive--so you might now have restrictions on chinese dairy products handled in certain ways, but they could only come about in RESPONSE to a problem, they do not and cannot ANTICIPATE problems.

it is unreasonable to pretend that customs can protect you from much except in this sense.

another thing i learned is that if you want to import pretty much anything, the way to do it is to have repeated shipments from the same place on a regular basis--you might get inspected at first, but as the pattern take shape, your chances of getting inspected start to tend toward zero, especially if you're shipping by ocean. and this was back in the day, before the real budget cuts kicked in.

customs is apparently one of those services that republicans think are expendable until something fucks up and they aren't any more. you know, "pork"....
apparently, with the well-documented revolving door which links corporate agriculture and its regulatory agencies in the states, so is enforcement of regulation, until there's a problem. typically industry is "encouraged" to "self-police"...
yeah.

safety of industrial food production is dependent on the enforcement of regulations in the countries of origin.
that is assured by the presence of the correct paperwork upon arrival in the states.
generally, the system works more than it doesn't, but it's not a terribly reassuring situation when you think about it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynosure

Freedom does not mean "anything goes", no more than free speech allows a person to yell "Fire! Run for your lives!" in a crowded place just for his twisted amusment, when there really is no fire.

No, what you're describing (and seeming to want to advocate, here) is not so much a free market, as it is a black market.

curiousbear

So 'we have a problem that we need to work on'. If we fix it then it will take care the rest isn't it?
My only intention here is that we should always identify the ACTUAL exact problem before jumping in to the solving. Otherwise we will be putting all our efforts on wrong direction. Then problems keep coming.... One day we will run out of our energy

Charlatan

Actually, despite the sarcastic reply I made above, I am advocating for a well-regulated, well-balanced form of capitalism. What many in the west (and the US in particular) keep calling for is less government involvement and increasingly freer markets.

My point is that you cannot have a the kind of free markets that many want without strong laws and oversight. Without this sort of oversight what you end up with is corruption like we see in China.

And it is not just a case of "some bad apples" as some would have it. This sort of inbalance is way too systemic to be a few bad apples. What you see in China is what you can expect in the US if they continue to deregulate and take the attitude that, "the marketplace will correct itself".

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

The Faba

That was kinda what I was driving for. Super-ginormous fines and all that if companies want to try and cheat would force most companies to play ball.