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-   -   2 boys left at Neb. hospitals under haven law: can parents quit? (https://thetfp.com/tfp/general-discussion/140364-2-boys-left-neb-hospitals-under-haven-law-can-parents-quit.html)

snowy 09-15-2008 02:35 PM
2 boys left at Neb. hospitals under haven law: can parents quit?
 
Forgive the somewhat awkward titling of the thread, but once you read the article, you'll see where this is going:

Quote:
OMAHA, Neb. (AP) — Two boys ages 15 and 11 were left at Nebraska hospitals over the weekend, the first youngsters surrendered under the state's new safe-haven law that allows caregivers to abandon children and teens as well as infants, officials said.

A 44-year-old woman dropped off her teenage nephew at Lincoln's BryanLGH Medical Center West on Saturday, saying the boy had behavioral problems that she couldn't handle anymore, Lincoln Police Chief Tom Casady said. The woman is the boy's legal guardian.

The other boy was left at Immanuel Medical Center in Omaha on Saturday, said Alegent Health spokeswoman Kelly Grinnell.

The 11-year-old was dropped off by his mother, who said she believed she could no longer care for him, said Todd Landry, who heads the Department of Health and Human Services' division of children and family services.

The two cases are the first uses of the state's safe-haven law, Landry said. Neither case produced suspicion of child abuse or neglect and neither child appeared to be in immediate danger, he said.

"These were two cases where the caregiver or parent decided the behavior issues were such they felt they could no longer provide good parenting skills," Landry said.

The 11-year-old remained in an Omaha hospital for evaluation and observation Monday, he said. The 15-year-old was temporarily placed in an emergency shelter in Lincoln. The county attorneys and the courts will now step in to determine custody.

Nebraska was the last state in the nation to adopt a safe-haven law, which took effect July 18. It allows any caregiver, not just a parent, to leave a child at any state-licensed hospital without fear of prosecution.

Under previous law, a parent who abandoned a baby could have been charged with child neglect or abandonment, both misdemeanors, or child abuse, a felony.

Most other states have focused their laws on protecting infants.

State Sen. Arnie Stuthman said he introduced the bill intending to protect infants. In a compromise with senators worried about arbitrary age limits, the measure was expanded to include the word "child."

The law doesn't further define child, and some have interpreted that to mean anyone in Nebraska under the age of 19. Others have taken the common law meaning of child — those under age 14.

Stuthman's bill was signed into law as a way of protecting children from immediate danger or harm, said Landry, who didn't believe the two cases Saturday carried that sense of urgency.

Stuthman said Monday that he was surprised that two older children were abandoned on the same day. He said the cases didn't meet the intent of his bill, but he said they will open lawmakers' eyes as to the issues affecting children and families.

"I clearly do not believe this was the intent of LB157," he said.

Stuthman and others have said they are open to revisiting the legislation.
from: The Associated Press: 2 boys left at Neb. hospitals under 'haven' law

I understand the intent of haven laws as they apply to infants, and I can see how this legislation was extended to include "children", but my question is this--do haven laws such as this in Nebraska allow parents to quit being parents? I use the term parent here to mean someone who is responsible for the well-being and raising of a child, whether it's their biological child or not.

Obviously, there are situations where we wouldn't want the child to be left in a bad situation, or a potentially bad situation, and situations where parents do more harm than good, but at what point do haven laws become cop-outs on the part of a parent? How do we judge whether or not a parent gave their all in a given situation?

Personally, I think there are other forms of recourse in both of the situations presented in the article. There are support systems in place, be they government organizations or NGOs that offer support and help for parents in need of assistance in dealing with children with behavioral issues. I do think just dropping off your teenager because he's "too hard to parent" is a cop-out. Being a parent is a tough job, and it seems to me that too many people have children and then have unrealistic expectations of just how difficult a job it is. This legislation needs to provide more hoops for parents to jump through should they wish to drop off their older child--like required parenting classes paid for by the state. Paying for such classes would certainly be cheaper than having to put the child in state care. I find this case in Nebraska absolutely mind-boggling.

Ayashe 09-15-2008 03:36 PM
Without knowing the Mother's side of the story I don't feel that I can give a full comment. For all I know she could have lost her job, lost her home/apartment, had serious health/mental health issues, felt like she was about to lose complete control etc.

I would like to have good faith that this system was put in place to prevent physical, sexual and emotional abuse or to give those children to homes that can provide a more nurturing environment. Yes, parenting is tough, and sometimes parents need a break. This is not meant to be that break, I hope that she gave serious consideration before dropping her children off and giving them up so suddenly.

PonyPotato 09-15-2008 03:41 PM
Gah, how would it feel to be that 11 year old or 15 year old taken to the hospital and dumped because you're no longer wanted?

If it wasn't the intent of the law to allow this to happen, then lawmakers should have written it differently, perhaps with more specific wording. I guess that now it's up to a judge to decide.. we'll see how this goes, I suppose.

Ayashe 09-15-2008 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by merleniau (Post 2524989)
Gah, how would it feel to be that 11 year old or 15 year old taken to the hospital and dumped because you're no longer wanted?

If it wasn't the intent of the law to allow this to happen, then lawmakers should have written it differently, perhaps with more specific wording. I guess that now it's up to a judge to decide.. we'll see how this goes, I suppose.
I definitely agree that is pretty damn cold. I can't imagine what the kids are thinking over this. Without the full details though, it still may have been the better choice. Who knows? I highly doubt it was expected that someone would be dropping off her teenaged sons at the hospital, loopholes are loopholes though, lawmakers have to be explicitly clear.

ASU2003 09-15-2008 03:53 PM
It sounds like the boys need to be sent to a boarding school/behavioral therapy for a while. And the Mom needs to get some training on how to handle boy teenagers. The social workers should come in and be like the SuperNanny show on TV.

I just don't see how she would give up on a son that was smart and well behaved.

The Faba 09-16-2008 10:04 PM
First thought - What a bitch.

Second thought - What a bitch!

Final thought - It is possible that she could not provide the level of care that she thought was necessary for these children. I know if I was a parent and things went into the shitter really fast and really bad then I would want to be able to provide my children with the best possible chance at success... even if it meant success with someone else. Without more information we'll never know if it was a case of a useless parent (probable) or a overly caring and mature decision maker (possible)

Bill O'Rights 09-17-2008 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Faba (Post 2525876)
It is possible that she could not provide the level of care that she thought was necessary for these children. I know if I was a parent and things went into the shitter really fast and really bad then I would want to be able to provide my children with the best possible chance at success.
Stick with your first (and second thought). The kids, as I recall from the local news the other night, were dropped off because of behavioral problems. There are other avenues to take for this type of problem. this was not in keeping with the intent of the law. The only reason that there was no age limit in place is because, as usual, the Nebraska State Legislature could not come to a concensus on where to draw the line. Therefore they opted to just use the most broad definition of child that there is.

Just as a gee whiz...Immanuel Medical Center is where my son was born. Six years ago, tomorrow.

genuinegirly 09-19-2008 11:20 PM
I honestly feel it's a wonderful program to have in place. They gave up the kids for a reason. Assume their reason was sincere. I can't imagine a situation where I would voluntarily give up a child to the system. I'm sure there are extremes of frustration or madness that I just haven't experienced.


My mother works with the emotionally disturbed program at my old high school. She is often bitten, kicked, screamed at, spit on... It can get pretty dang messy (she used to work with autistic kindergarteners, the battle wounds are shockingly similar). Most of the time, the children are emotionally disturbed because of a distressing family situation. Occasionally you run into the off situation where the family is as loving as can be and the child simply is dealing with post-traumatic stress of one form or another (rape, witness of a murder, etc). Extreme behavioral problems are often linked to a poor home environment. Perhaps it is better for these boys that they were voluntarily given up by their guardians.

UKking 09-25-2008 12:05 PM
Wow!

Quote:
Father Leaves 9 Children Under Safe Haven Law

A Creighton University Medical Center Nursing Supervisor told KETV NewsWatch 7 a man left all nine of his children at the hospital Wednesday night.

The children are between 1 and 17-years-old.

The father will not be charged because of the safe haven law which states any child under the age of 19 can be left at a hospital if they're in immediate danger.

This is the fourth case of children ages 11, 13, and 15 being dropped off at a hospital since it became a law in July.
I feel for these kids and wish the best for them.

kurty[B] 09-25-2008 01:39 PM
I understand save haven laws for infants, and even toddlers. I would much rather have a person drop off their baby at a hospital then shake him or her, or put him or her in a plastic bag and throw him in a McDonald's dumpster (sorry, this happened in my town before). But, after about 30 months? If you have gone through that much raising a child, and decide you can not do it anymore? What about adoption? Sure, it is not an instantaneous fix as dropping your children off at the hospital and saying "I'm done", but if you are that serious about it, and have already spent 30+ months raising your child, another year or two of adoption proceeding should not be that bad?

I feel horrible for the kids this is happening to. I think the law needed a bit more time figuring out an age instead of simply stating "a child". Lawmakers should know better than to release a law without specifics and realize if there is room to mistranslate the law it will be mistranslated.

Jozrael 09-25-2008 06:19 PM
I feel the same way as genuinegirly. If a parent wants to give up their kid...I'm not sure they deserve to continue being parents in the first place.

Granted, I've got issues of my own on this subject.

genuinegirly 09-25-2008 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKking (Post 2531923)

I feel for these kids and wish the best for them.
As do I. That's a lot of children to pass along.

Makedde 09-25-2008 08:52 PM
I don't feel I can pass judgement on this woman. After all, none us know the situation that led her to dump the children, do we? For all we know, the teenager could have been abusive, loud, uncooperative. Perhaps the woman just couldn't take it any longer and simply needed a break?
I don't think she left the children simply because she couldn't be bothered caring for them anymore. There would have been a reason for it, and until I know that reason, I cannot pass judgement.

noodle 09-26-2008 03:10 AM
i'd rather see kids dropped off than another case of susan whats-her-name that killed all four of her kids.


after working as a therapist with kids for three years, i can honestly see how it could happen.
and the services available to help children with behavior issues SUCK.
yell at the government and get funding for more support services to keep families intact, or there are going to be more children getting "dropped off".

abaya 09-26-2008 03:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makedde (Post 2532285)
I don't feel I can pass judgement on this woman. After all, none us know the situation that led her to dump the children, do we? For all we know, the teenager could have been abusive, loud, uncooperative. Perhaps the woman just couldn't take it any longer and simply needed a break?
I don't think she left the children simply because she couldn't be bothered caring for them anymore. There would have been a reason for it, and until I know that reason, I cannot pass judgement.
I'd still like to know how/why the heck the most recent guy dropped off NINE of his children. I mean... NINE?? Where was the mother? Why did they have 9 children in the first place, and then dump all of them? What about extended family? What's the story there, seriously...

Bill O'Rights 09-26-2008 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya (Post 2532391)
Where was the mother?
Dead. February 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha World Herald
The couple married at age 18 after their first daughter was born. By 2004, they had nine children.

That March, police officers removed the children from the home. Court records detail the family's troubles:

Officers found a broken septic tank and containers of human waste. The family had had no gas in the home since April 2003 and no water since June 2003.

The officers also found three dogs, four cats, two rabbits, 12 caged mice, two salamanders and one lizard.

A judge ordered the parents to find decent housing, keep a clean home and get jobs.

The children were returned home nine months later, but problems lingered.

Neither parent held a steady job. More than once, the Nebraska Department of Health and Human Services paid their rent when they received eviction notices and paid utility bills when the family was threatened with shut-off notices.

Psychological examinations of the parents found that the mother expressed "distorted thinking." She resisted finding a job, ignored eviction notices, didn't help her husband with the cooking and cleaning — but still wanted to have more children.

And she did.

On Jan. 2, 2007, she gave birth to a daughter. Several days later, she collapsed from a stroke, according to a 2007 article in the North High School student newspaper.

Weakened by stress, the woman died the next month at an Omaha rehabilitation facility. She was 34.

Soon after, the courts closed the social services case.

The couple's oldest daughter told the student newspaper that she took over child-care duties, which she already had shared with her mother. She fed her siblings, checked their homework and sent them to bed.

Despite her busy home life, she managed to graduate a year early in 2007 from North. It was something the girl had dreamed about doing even before her mother died, she told the school's newspaper.

This past July, however, the father lost his job.

That's what he told officers when he left nine of his children at the hospital. He also mentioned his wife's death.

abaya 09-26-2008 05:13 AM
Holy shit. Thanks for the backstory, BoR. 9 children in 16 years? That's beyond fertile... for most women, the average birth spacing without contraception is at least 2 years between children, due to breast feeding and the like... so that is pretty wild. What I don't understand is why the father didn't at least use condoms, if he didn't want any more children?... or maybe he had mental issues as well? That's just really sad, and scary... pretty much psychotic behavior, given the circumstances (MORE CHILDREN!). Very sad for the children, trying to imagine what kind of childhoods they had... :(

MSD 09-26-2008 06:17 AM
It looks like this kind of law will help get children out of households with shitty parenting. You all know how I feel about shitty parenting. Hopefully this will help lead to a reduction in delinquency and crime rates, but it has to be pretty traumatic for the kids, so I don't know if it will work out.

Bill O'Rights 09-26-2008 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya (Post 2532436)
9 children in 16 years?
10. There was an eighteen year old (the oldest) that took care of the rest, after the mother died.

He left all but his 18-year-old daughter at Creighton University Medical Center, saying he wanted to exercise his right to the state's new safe haven law.

Psychological examinations of the parents found that the mother expressed "distorted thinking." She resisted finding a job, ignored eviction notices, didn't help her husband with the cooking and cleaning — but still wanted to have more children.

And she did.

On Jan. 2, 2007, she gave birth to a daughter. Several days later, she collapsed from a stroke, according to a 2007 article in the North High School student newspaper.

Weakened by stress, the woman died the next month at an Omaha rehabilitation facility. She was 34.

Soon after, the courts closed the social services case.

The couple's oldest daughter told the student newspaper that she took over child-care duties, which she already had shared with her mother. She fed her siblings, checked their homework and sent them to bed.

Despite her busy home life, she managed to graduate a year early in 2007 from North. It was something the girl had dreamed about doing even before her mother died, she told the school's newspaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya (Post 2532436)
What I don't understand is why the father didn't at least use condoms, if he didn't want any more children?
That left her 10 children in the care of her 34-year-old husband, who had a history of unemployment, eviction notices and unpaid bills — and a psychologist's determination that he lacked common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya (Post 2532436)
Very sad for the children, trying to imagine what kind of childhoods they had... :(
Don't. Instead, look to system that is so broken, that it allowed this to go on for 18 years.

abaya 09-26-2008 07:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights (Post 2532522)
That left her 10 children in the care of her 34-year-old husband, who had a history of unemployment, eviction notices and unpaid bills — and a psychologist's determination that he lacked common sense.
Ah, that part wasn't in the original quote--sounds like he and his wife were an interesting match. No story on their parents, extended family, etc I suppose?... and since when is "lacking common sense" a psychological diagnosis? I bet there was a hell of a lot more going on there than can be summed up in a newspaper article. Wow.

Bill O'Rights 09-26-2008 08:41 AM
Yeah, well...I disected the meat from the lengthy article. I suppose that I should've provided the link to the original.

Omaha.com Metro/Region Section

Glory's Sun 09-26-2008 12:14 PM
I don't really have a comment directed to the OP.. It sucks for the kids.. it does..but I don't know where I really stand on it.

What I came in here for is I heard on the news somewhere..and someone can help me if I'm wrong here.. but that in New Mexico (think that's the right state) that you can now leave kids in safe haven up to the age of 19. I was sitting there thinking how in the hell can that law get passed when technically the "child" is an adult at 18.

Bill O'Rights 09-26-2008 12:42 PM
Nebraska.
In the state of Nebraska, you are not an "adult until the age of 19. Which...makes it very difficult for parents, that are technically still responsible for these kids, but the federal government says that they can enjoy all of the privlidges of adulthood at 18. That's a whole year to fuck up a lot of shit. Trust me.

Glory's Sun 09-26-2008 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights (Post 2532858)
Nebraska.
In the state of Nebraska, you are not an "adult until the age of 19. Which...makes it very difficult for parents, that are technically still responsible for these kids, but the federal government says that they can enjoy all of the privlidges of adulthood at 18. That's a whole year to fuck up a lot of shit. Trust me.
it was another state as well.. I'll look it up on the new website and see if I can find it.. I swear it was NM.. maybe they are the same way.. not technically an adult until 19..

Makedde 09-26-2008 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya (Post 2532391)
I'd still like to know how/why the heck the most recent guy dropped off NINE of his children. I mean... NINE?? Where was the mother? Why did they have 9 children in the first place, and then dump all of them? What about extended family? What's the story there, seriously...
I read about that just recently. I can't figure that one out, eithor. One would think you should stop having children if you are getting sick of them.

UKking 09-29-2008 05:54 PM
Quote:
Several teenagers and pre-teens left by families at Nebraska hospitals over the past several weeks are mentally ill or have severe behavioral problems, according to the Omaha World-Herald.

The newspaper reports today that families sought help for these violent or out-of-control kids, unsuccessfully.

-- A 15-year-old boy who would punch holes in the wall at home and throw things in school. His father is described in court records as "psychotic and a drug user who had been convicted of misdemeanor child abuse," the World-Herald reports.

The boy was living with an aunt; when she tried calling a statewide human services hotline "she got no useful information," the newspaper said. Separately, officials with Nebraska's child welfare division told the aunt the state couldn't intervene unless the boy committed a crime.

-- A 13-year-old girl who'd been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, fetal alcohol syndrome, and severe behavioral problems. She was prone to fly into rages and and had been living at Boys Town until her great aunt removed her at the beginning of the summer, concerned that the girl was being medicated too heavily.

After the girl smeared her menstrual blood on the walls of her house, the "aunt called agencies for help but said she could not find a program," the World-Herald reports. When the girl tried to jump out of a moving car, her great aunt took her to a hospital and asked for help.

"I can't do nothing for her anymore. It's too dangerous," she told the Omaha newspaper.

-- A 15-year-old boy who'd been diagnosed with depression and using drugs. Over the summer, the boy had been found carrying marijuana and had run away from home before entering a diversion program. When police brought him back, he reportedly began to express suicidical intentions.

His uncle, the boy's guardian, took him to an Omaha hospital for a psychiatric evaluation, but the hospital refused to admit the teeanger when he said he wasn't suicidal.

"Fearing for his life, that's when I made the decision that I made," said the uncle, who then turned the teenager in under Nebraska's new "safe haven" law, according to the World-Herald.

-- An 11-year-old boy who'd threatened to kill his mother and siblings. The World-Herald reports that the mom arranged for the boy to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital but that he refused to take his medications.

"She has exhausted all of her options," according to a police report cited by the World-Herald.

Under Nebraska's new "safe haven" law -- the last in the nation -- seven teens have been dropped off at hospitals over the past several weeks by parents or guardians. The Nebraska law is the only in the U.S. that doesn't set an age limit on children who can be handed over to authorities, no questions asked.

Source
I can't imagine the despair these parents had/have to be feeling.....

troit 10-01-2008 04:14 PM
Better to leave them in the care of someone then noone. Modern day ophans I suppose.

UKking 10-14-2008 03:37 PM
I find it odd that ANYONE can drop the kid off (not just the parent/guardian).

Quote:
2nd out-of-state teen dropped at Omaha hospital

OMAHA, Neb. - A Michigan mother drove roughly 12 hours to Omaha, so she could abandon her 13-year-old son at a hospital under the state's unique safe-haven law, Nebraska officials said Monday.
The boy from the Detroit area is the second teenager from outside Nebraska and 18th child overall abandoned in the state since the law took effect in July.

"I certainly recognize and can commiserate and empathize with families across our state and across the country who are obviously struggling with parenting issues, but this is not the appropriate way of dealing with them, whether you're in Nebraska or whether you're in another state," said Todd Landry, who heads the state's Department of Health and Human Services' division of children and family services.

There was no sign the boy was in immediate danger before he was abandoned, but an investigation into the boy's situation was still continuing, Landry said.

The boy has been placed in an emergency shelter. Landry said the family doesn't appear to have ties to Nebraska and he wasn't sure if the family had sought help in Michigan first.

State officials have met with the boy's mother, Landry said but wouldn't immediately address her reasons for leaving her son. He said he believed the boy's parents were married but wasn't sure if the father agreed to the decision.

"Regardless of why or how, our focus remains on the safety of the child," he said.

Creighton hospital spokeswoman Lisa Stites said she did not know any additional details about the boy abandoned at her hospital early Monday.

Last week, a 14-year-old girl from Iowa was left at an Omaha hospital by her grandparents. The girl has since been returned to her family.

Nebraska's safe-haven law is unlike similar laws in that it allows anyone, not just a parent, to drop off a child, of any age, at any state-licensed hospital without fear of prosecution for abandonment. The law doesn't absolve anyone of other charges like abuse or neglect.
Source

Ayashe 10-14-2008 04:13 PM
From the sounds of it these are some fairly extreme circumstances. Some of these children have mental/emotional ages far less then what their calender age would describe. In view of this, it appears that for some of the most mentally disabled there simply were not enough available options for assistance with the kids. I have a friend who has a physically disabled daughter, you can't just drop her off at a daycare, she has special requirements. I imagine day after day of high demand parenting could be miserable. I personally know of another parent who has three autistic children, I don't know how on earth she manages to keep her sanity.

For people who don't know how to use take advantage of "the system" it must be horribly overwhelming. It seems as though rather than offering Safe Haven there needs to be some other means for helping these families through hard times. Some sort of special Hot-line meant for special cases where they could perhaps offer more than just telephone advice. Having emergency daycare for people who have reached their limit on parenthood. Easy to abuse, that is the trouble. While you may be truly helping one family you have another in which the parents dropped them off so they could take advantage of free care and get high. It is unfortunate that dishonesty in such ways prevents more assistance from being offered to those who are truly in need.


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