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Halx 08-28-2008 08:12 AM

How would you time travel?
 
I'm thinking of writing a story about time travel, but there is one small detail that I haven't quite settled on. How DO you time travel?

There are plenty of theories about what physical requirements it will take in order to leap back and forth in time, but obviously, nobody knows for sure. What are your theories about time travel?

How does someone jump through time? Is it a mental command? Is it a contraption they build? Is is a Delorean? Is it an alchemical concoction? Is it a portal?

What happens when you go back in time? Do you end up in the same spot you would be, only 600 years in the past? Do you rewind time until you're an infant? Does a paradox prevent you from even existing? Do you solidify within a physical structure that occupies the space that you appear in? Is another dimension created where all the things you do will affect the future, meanwhile your old dimension continues on without you?

Can you travel between those dimensions?

What happens when you go forward in time? Do you occupy the body you would have, only older? Do you replicate and see a double of yourself?

Time travel, being a fictional thing, is very subjective. What do you imagine happening if it could?

The_Jazz 08-28-2008 08:20 AM

Years ago, I wrote a short story about the first time traveler ever, who unfortunately discovered that since the earth revolves around the sun and the sun around the Galactic Center, which is in turn moving outwards, that death by vacuum is very uncomfortable. Given that I suck as a writer and that the idea is pretty derivative, that story remains unread somewhere.

snowy 08-28-2008 08:21 AM

I imagine the most likely scenario, barring some kind of technical machine, is something similar to what happens in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series: the heroine steps through a cracked standing stone in Scotland and ends about 200 years in the past.

Daval 08-28-2008 08:22 AM

I pretty much see it as a mental thing. Close your eyes and visualize where and when you want to be and *pop* there you are. Sort of like Hiro in the show Heroes.

I assume you would be as yourself, dressed as you are now, and I would like to hope that you could somehow control where you appear - it would kind of suck to appear in the centre of a mountain entombed in rock, or in the middle of a battle (would have some 'splainin to do).
-----Added 28/8/2008 at 12 : 24 : 24-----
Just read Jazz's comment about showing up in the vacuum of space. That might be slightly worse than my scenario :)

Willravel 08-28-2008 08:45 AM

There are two directions to go with time travel: science fiction or fantasy. Fantasy is a lot easier, but it's less challenging to the reader and writer, so I'll assume you're going with science.

There are several schools of thought on time travel:
1) It's impossible. The consensus between most physicists is that changing the rate at which humans go through time is simply impossible. The flow of time may not be a constant, but the manipulation of time, in theory, would require more energy than one can even imagine, let alone generate. Think of it this way: the sun has a mass of about 20 x 10^10 kg (roughly). The gravity well it creates stretches far, far beyond the solar system. One would need an atomic clock to measure the time change created by the sun, a normal clock couldn't do it.
2) Go really, really fast. Because time slows as an object comes closer to the speed of light, some scientists (but mostly sci-fi writers) theorize that moving faster than light could propel one backwards in time. This main issues with this are that breaking the speed of light is a touchy subject with physicists. I actually saw a professor of astronomy knifed once over it by a roving band of resident physicists, it's that serious. The only theoretical way for matter to break the speed of light is by manipulating gravity by an obscene amount, which would (referencing #1) require gobs of energy. The most popular instance in fiction of this warping of space via gravity is the warp drive of Star Trek. The energy used in the fictional process is gathered from colliding matter with anti-matter and channeling that energy through a fictional crystal which somehow translates the incredible energy that would theoretically be released from the matter/anti-matter explosion into some form of energy that can be used. That translated energy is sent to the "warp coils" (another totally fictional tech) which somehow generate an incredibly powerful and easily controlled warp bubble. That bubble bends space, making space move faster than light. In order to make this work in a science fiction, you would need to use creative license with the tech that could generate that effect.
3) Quantum theory. Quantum theory is crazy. Even with the recent introduction of M theory, it's still a big mess that we barely understand. One of the most fascinating aspects of quantum theory is the instantaneous transfer of information. This information clearly moves much faster than light, and as such could theoretically, when applied to #2, move outside of time. When we develop a better understanding of this process, we may be able to harness it, but for the time being it's probably far to complex to be used without some artistic license. Also, considering the rate at which this particular area of science is growing, it's possible that your writing's science may become obsolete quickly.
4) http://api.ning.com/files/B9f4nDc6uy...Ss_/TARDIS.jpg

fresnelly 08-28-2008 08:52 AM

I vote for the method proposed in The Light of Other Days by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter.

Unfortunately, that's one of my favourite books and I'd hate to spoil it for you.

Poppinjay 08-28-2008 08:55 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ansimpsons.png

Reese 08-28-2008 08:57 AM

Rips in space/time continuum, so I guess that's a portal? Kind of imagine it looks like a mage portal in Warcraft. You can kinda see what's on the other side, but don't REALLY know when and where it is until you step through it.

hmm.. Speaking of Warcraft and Time travel.. There's a quest in caverns of time. Quite a few years ago, some thugs stole a guy's favorite hat. So, The guy sends you back in time to get his hat from his younger self and bring it to him in the future. So, You go back in time, beat up his younger self and take his hat before the thugs steal it from him. Turns out you were the thugs that stole the hat in the first place :)

Willravel 08-28-2008 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly (Post 2514593)
I vote for the method proposed in The Light of Other Days by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter.

Unfortunately, that's one of my favourite books and I'd hate to spoil it for you.

I was always surprised that religious people weren't more offended by that book.

Poppinjay 08-28-2008 09:04 AM

I think witnessing another time, but not being able to participate might be much more workable. Otherwise, the closest we might come is coming in contact with another planet that is either behind or ahead of us in advancement.

I like the idea of a pensieve.

Baraka_Guru 08-28-2008 09:31 AM

I will stand behind the ideas of quantum theory and meditation. Well, a combination of the two, actually. Start your research with Buddhism and Descartes, perhaps.

Leto 08-28-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz (Post 2514574)
Years ago, I wrote a short story about the first time traveler ever, who unfortunately discovered that since the earth revolves around the sun and the sun around the Galactic Center, which is in turn moving outwards, that death by vacuum is very uncomfortable. Given that I suck as a writer and that the idea is pretty derivative, that story remains unread somewhere.

discussion of angular momentum can be a party pooper.
-----Added 28/8/2008 at 01 : 46 : 53-----
Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly (Post 2514593)
I vote for the method proposed in The Light of Other Days by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter.

Unfortunately, that's one of my favourite books and I'd hate to spoil it for you.

I just finished that last week. Excellent read!

RangerJoe 08-28-2008 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl (Post 2514575)
I imagine the most likely scenario, barring some kind of technical machine, is something similar to what happens in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series: the heroine steps through a cracked standing stone in Scotland and ends about 200 years in the past.

:surprised: My sister and I used to be obsessed with these books. Such a well written series, even if it's romance!


For time travel, I'm going to have to go with quantum theory, but only because my mom, sister, and I used to sit and watch Quantum Leap EVERY week. If time traveling isn't anything like that, including a hologram with a broken remote, then I want no part.

Jinn 08-28-2008 09:49 AM

I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

ratbastid 08-28-2008 09:51 AM

I think the mechanism of time travel is much less interesting than its ramifications. I'm willing to let an author wave their hands about the mechanism, if the conflict that it sets up is worth it.

See, in particular, 1973 novel The Man who Folded Himself by David Gerrold. Brilliant and seminal time-travel fic. At one point he throws a month-long party in his apartment for all of himselves from different times. Crazy. So crazy, in fact, that I didn't just give away the craziest part!

snowy 08-28-2008 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2514631)
I think the mechanism of time travel is much less interesting than its ramifications. I'm willing to let an author wave their hands about the mechanism, if the conflict that it sets up is worth it.

I agree. I'm willing to overlook a lot in this regard if the rest is a good read.

Halx 08-28-2008 09:58 AM

Yes, ratbastid, that's part of why I'm asking the audience about this trivial aspect. I've already got the big picture in my head.

Daniel_ 08-28-2008 10:00 AM

The cleverest method of time travel I came across is still one of my favourite books:

The Number of the Beast (novel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Ayashe 08-28-2008 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn (Post 2514628)
I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

I could only hope that it would never become possible. I believe we are meant to learn from our past and not repeat it.

Good luck with your story Halx, ruby red slippers? A little green pill? Scientific experiment with unexpected results? I haven't the faintest idea.

Willravel 08-28-2008 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn (Post 2514628)
I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

This is contradicted by relativity. Einstein demonstrated that there is no such thing as absolute time. If time is relative, then there is a continuum.

Rat brings up a very good point, but at the same time you don't want a bad explanation of time travel to distract the reader from the story you're trying to tell. Did anyone see the "A Sound of Thunder" movie? Christ...

World's King 08-28-2008 10:27 AM

Get blacked out drunk. Wake up three days later tied to a chair in a Vegas hotel room.

ratbastid 08-28-2008 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King (Post 2514649)
Get blacked out drunk. Wake up three days later tied to a chair in a Vegas hotel room.

Spider Robinson's Callahan's Place series features a characters referred to as a "time traveler" who was in political prisoner in a third world jail for many years. His story was about coping with the changes the world had undergone while he were separate from it.

Jinn 08-28-2008 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn
I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a directed continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel
This is contradicted by relativity. Einstein demonstrated that there is no such thing as absolute time. If time is relative, then there is a continuum.

Happy now? Not denying the continuum, but the directionality of it. (Note: So did Einstein, in his theories of relativity).

Leto 08-28-2008 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_ (Post 2514637)
The cleverest method of time travel I came across is still one of my favourite books:

The Number of the Beast (novel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Ahh yes. I must have read that book over 666 times, it was so good.

MSD 08-28-2008 08:14 PM

If you want science fiction, I'm envisioning a machine that rotates the person to be time traveled around a bundle of cosmic strings at close to the speed of light. At the proper point in the time-like curve, the machine inflicts some sort of normally fatal injury on the passenger to achieve quantum immortality, placing them in just the right point in time to continue as planned. Without the quantum suicide, the machine would balance centrifugal force against the quantum gravity of the cosmic strings to infinitely prolong the passage of time within the machine and let it pass at an arbitrarily fast rate outside, slowing as the desired future point in the time loop approaches.

ngdawg 08-28-2008 08:25 PM

There was a really cool Twilight Zone with Martin Landau who played a time traveler sent back in time to alter history-something about preventing the birth of a man who would start a world war or something.
Well, he gets to the man's grandmother and one thing leads to another and they both get into his time travelling spaceship where he'd planned on taking her to his future. But then, he starts to fade in and out and panic sets in.
When she wants to know what's happening, his reply is, to the effect: I changed the course of history....and...I....was...never...born...
And he disappears, leaving her alone in the time capsule.
Something to consider....

ratbastid 08-29-2008 04:39 AM

Read this. Pure genius.

fresnelly 08-29-2008 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2515024)
Read this. Pure genius.

Awesome!

Halx 08-29-2008 06:38 AM

Hey ratbastid, why are you posting a link without discussion?

:p

ratbastid 08-29-2008 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx (Post 2515057)
Hey ratbastid, why are you posting a link without discussion?

:p

What, "Pure genius" isn't enough discussion for you? ;)

Well... I'll just have to go back in time and alert my former self to your stringent posting guidelines.

...

Okay, I'm back. Damn it, that bastard didn't change it like I told him to! Why do I have to be so fucking stubborn? And why is there a dead butterfly sitting on my desk??

stevie667 08-29-2008 07:39 AM

If you want to avoid annoying paradoxes, use the multi-verse theory (i.e. lots of different dimensions which you time travel to and affect), or if you like paradoxes, make everything happen in your own universe (i.e. grandfather paradox).

I personally like the idea of time being a concrete dimension, so removing yourself from that dimension means you can essential re-insert yourself at another point (like jumping out and then back in a pool) in time. *just had good idea for own story*

In current realistic science fiction some sort of large machinery would be better suited (think hadron collider by-product), but if you like more fantasy then use mental abilities, or if you want retro, go with aliens.

Merlocke 09-04-2008 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly (Post 2515052)
Awesome!

BWAHAHAHAHA - ok that just made my day.
And the forum admin piece was just priceless...

I just googled superman time travel and found this link.
Perhaps the quiz might spark some creative juices for you Hal

Nisses 09-05-2008 01:25 AM

Definitly pure genius, that thread.

Time travelling: you can use ancient monuments as foci with some special events perhaps. Eclipses, position of moon/planets/... , needing a certain item for it to work.

That would suggest using a concrete dimension like Stevie suggested.

Hain 09-05-2008 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2514586)

Will, have I told you I love you, recently?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn (Post 2514695)
Happy now? Not denying the continuum, but the directionality of it. (Note: So did Einstein, in his theories of relativity).

Einstein did? Any who: there is a very interesting new theory of quantum spacetime that only works when the egg heads put some 4-th dimension of spacetime vector pointing towards the future---else the whole system collapses either into an infinitely long 1-D universe or into an infinitesimally small infinitely many dimensioned universe.
Quote:

Article: Using Causality to Solve the Puzzle of Quantum Spacetime
Source: Scientific American (http://www.SciAm.com)

Abstract: "A new approach to the decades-old problem of quantum gravity goes back to basics and shows how the building blocks of space and time pull themselves together
* Quantum theory and Einstein’s general theory of relativity are famously at loggerheads. Physicists have long tried to reconcile them in a theory of quantum gravity—with only limited success.
* A new approach introduces no exotic components but rather provides a novel way to apply existing laws to individual motes of spacetime. The motes fall into place of their own accord, like molecules in a crystal.
* This approach shows how four-dimensional spacetime as we know it can emerge dynamically from more basic ingredients. It also suggests that spacetime shades from a smooth arena to a funky fractal on small scales."   click to show 


Take it from me, time travel is a tricky thing.... :paranoid: Any who:
I agree with those that say meditation---inner-life time travel. Think Butterfly Effect with a machine twist and you have my favorite form of time travel.

UKking 09-05-2008 11:11 AM

Surely these are all the things that will define your book?

There's plenty of stories that detail machines, or experiences of 'traveling' somehow, or through no change at all like the alleyway that goes to 1942 in Goodnight Sweetheart.
I'd like some sort of confusing psychological thing. Where you fall asleep you dream you're in the past at an uncertain point, and by the end of the dream you wake up and it's happened, but it's all so hazy like a dream and there are the all the problems that'd result from that.

clavus 09-05-2008 11:43 AM

I don't care how you time travel, but for the love of GOD, please keep in mind that the planet is moving. Fast.

In the time it takes you to fall off a barstool and hit the floor, the Earth's spin will take you about half a mile east, the motion of the Earth around the Sun will carry you forty miles back West, the drift of our solar system will carry you twenty miles closer to the star Vega, and the spinning pinwheel of our galaxy will take you an additional 300 miles around our galactic center. More or less.

If you travel in time without traveling in space, you are going to end up in the void of space.

The only movie I have ever seen deal with this problem (and it did so poorly) was Primer.

Primer (film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

GREAT movie, BTW.

shakran 09-05-2008 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2514643)
This is contradicted by relativity. Einstein demonstrated that there is no such thing as absolute time. If time is relative, then there is a continuum.

Rat brings up a very good point, but at the same time you don't want a bad explanation of time travel to distract the reader from the story you're trying to tell. Did anyone see the "A Sound of Thunder" movie? Christ...

Exactly. Read Timeline by Michael Crichton. He gets a concept so horridly wrong that it completely deflates his plot because, by his own explanation of time travel, his plot is impossible.

So getting the mechanics is important.

It is relatively (ha ha) easy to go forward in time. We do it routinely, after all. And we can go forward in time faster - - just. . go faster. The closer you get to the speed of light, the faster forward in time you go. In theory if you travel to the Andromeda Galaxy and back at near-light speed, everyone you know will be long dead even though you were only gone 8 years. 8 years to you was many times that to those who didn't go as fast as you.

Travelling backward presents a more special problem. You essentially have to travel at a negative velocity, which is not physically possible in our universe/dimension. The only way to do it would be to envelop yourself in a bubble of space/time that is able to flow backwards. Some say that's possible, others say it's not.

In short, if your characters are going forward in time, just make them go really fast and you're set. If they're going backward in time, you're gonna have to make shit up ;)

ratbastid 09-05-2008 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavus (Post 2519340)
The only movie I have ever seen deal with this problem (and it did so poorly) was Primer.

Primer (film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

GREAT movie, BTW.

YES YES YES. Halx, if you're writing a time travel story, it's CRITICAL you see Primer. Probably a few times--you can't quite get it in one viewing, because there are things early on that you don't know to watch for. And it's well enough built that repeated viewings are logarithmically rewarding.

The "taking a copy of the machine through the machine" thing was BRILLIANT.

Cynthetiq 09-05-2008 01:02 PM

I'd go with ingesting some "miracle" plant, smoking, injecting, etc. The machines are just too played out for me.

MexicanOnABike 09-05-2008 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2519381)
YES YES YES. Halx, if you're writing a time travel story, it's CRITICAL you see Primer. Probably a few times--you can't quite get it in one viewing, because there are things early on that you don't know to watch for. And it's well enough built that repeated viewings are logarithmically rewarding.

The "taking a copy of the machine through the machine" thing was BRILLIANT.

I just came in this thread to say this exact thing. Primer IS THE TIME TRAVEL MOVIE. nothing else comes close to it for me.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 07 : 21 : 05-----
btw in reply to Cyn: I prefer a machine than a drug/plant/meditation. Because if that's the story, I will just expect it to be: "and then I came out of my drug trip and I was still sitting in my living room. It must have all been a dream! wow. I am so changed by what happened that I must now change my life to better myself. " *puke*


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