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Halx 08-28-2008 08:12 AM

How would you time travel?
 
I'm thinking of writing a story about time travel, but there is one small detail that I haven't quite settled on. How DO you time travel?

There are plenty of theories about what physical requirements it will take in order to leap back and forth in time, but obviously, nobody knows for sure. What are your theories about time travel?

How does someone jump through time? Is it a mental command? Is it a contraption they build? Is is a Delorean? Is it an alchemical concoction? Is it a portal?

What happens when you go back in time? Do you end up in the same spot you would be, only 600 years in the past? Do you rewind time until you're an infant? Does a paradox prevent you from even existing? Do you solidify within a physical structure that occupies the space that you appear in? Is another dimension created where all the things you do will affect the future, meanwhile your old dimension continues on without you?

Can you travel between those dimensions?

What happens when you go forward in time? Do you occupy the body you would have, only older? Do you replicate and see a double of yourself?

Time travel, being a fictional thing, is very subjective. What do you imagine happening if it could?

The_Jazz 08-28-2008 08:20 AM

Years ago, I wrote a short story about the first time traveler ever, who unfortunately discovered that since the earth revolves around the sun and the sun around the Galactic Center, which is in turn moving outwards, that death by vacuum is very uncomfortable. Given that I suck as a writer and that the idea is pretty derivative, that story remains unread somewhere.

snowy 08-28-2008 08:21 AM

I imagine the most likely scenario, barring some kind of technical machine, is something similar to what happens in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series: the heroine steps through a cracked standing stone in Scotland and ends about 200 years in the past.

Daval 08-28-2008 08:22 AM

I pretty much see it as a mental thing. Close your eyes and visualize where and when you want to be and *pop* there you are. Sort of like Hiro in the show Heroes.

I assume you would be as yourself, dressed as you are now, and I would like to hope that you could somehow control where you appear - it would kind of suck to appear in the centre of a mountain entombed in rock, or in the middle of a battle (would have some 'splainin to do).
-----Added 28/8/2008 at 12 : 24 : 24-----
Just read Jazz's comment about showing up in the vacuum of space. That might be slightly worse than my scenario :)

Willravel 08-28-2008 08:45 AM

There are two directions to go with time travel: science fiction or fantasy. Fantasy is a lot easier, but it's less challenging to the reader and writer, so I'll assume you're going with science.

There are several schools of thought on time travel:
1) It's impossible. The consensus between most physicists is that changing the rate at which humans go through time is simply impossible. The flow of time may not be a constant, but the manipulation of time, in theory, would require more energy than one can even imagine, let alone generate. Think of it this way: the sun has a mass of about 20 x 10^10 kg (roughly). The gravity well it creates stretches far, far beyond the solar system. One would need an atomic clock to measure the time change created by the sun, a normal clock couldn't do it.
2) Go really, really fast. Because time slows as an object comes closer to the speed of light, some scientists (but mostly sci-fi writers) theorize that moving faster than light could propel one backwards in time. This main issues with this are that breaking the speed of light is a touchy subject with physicists. I actually saw a professor of astronomy knifed once over it by a roving band of resident physicists, it's that serious. The only theoretical way for matter to break the speed of light is by manipulating gravity by an obscene amount, which would (referencing #1) require gobs of energy. The most popular instance in fiction of this warping of space via gravity is the warp drive of Star Trek. The energy used in the fictional process is gathered from colliding matter with anti-matter and channeling that energy through a fictional crystal which somehow translates the incredible energy that would theoretically be released from the matter/anti-matter explosion into some form of energy that can be used. That translated energy is sent to the "warp coils" (another totally fictional tech) which somehow generate an incredibly powerful and easily controlled warp bubble. That bubble bends space, making space move faster than light. In order to make this work in a science fiction, you would need to use creative license with the tech that could generate that effect.
3) Quantum theory. Quantum theory is crazy. Even with the recent introduction of M theory, it's still a big mess that we barely understand. One of the most fascinating aspects of quantum theory is the instantaneous transfer of information. This information clearly moves much faster than light, and as such could theoretically, when applied to #2, move outside of time. When we develop a better understanding of this process, we may be able to harness it, but for the time being it's probably far to complex to be used without some artistic license. Also, considering the rate at which this particular area of science is growing, it's possible that your writing's science may become obsolete quickly.
4) http://api.ning.com/files/B9f4nDc6uy...Ss_/TARDIS.jpg

fresnelly 08-28-2008 08:52 AM

I vote for the method proposed in The Light of Other Days by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter.

Unfortunately, that's one of my favourite books and I'd hate to spoil it for you.

Poppinjay 08-28-2008 08:55 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ansimpsons.png

Reese 08-28-2008 08:57 AM

Rips in space/time continuum, so I guess that's a portal? Kind of imagine it looks like a mage portal in Warcraft. You can kinda see what's on the other side, but don't REALLY know when and where it is until you step through it.

hmm.. Speaking of Warcraft and Time travel.. There's a quest in caverns of time. Quite a few years ago, some thugs stole a guy's favorite hat. So, The guy sends you back in time to get his hat from his younger self and bring it to him in the future. So, You go back in time, beat up his younger self and take his hat before the thugs steal it from him. Turns out you were the thugs that stole the hat in the first place :)

Willravel 08-28-2008 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly (Post 2514593)
I vote for the method proposed in The Light of Other Days by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter.

Unfortunately, that's one of my favourite books and I'd hate to spoil it for you.

I was always surprised that religious people weren't more offended by that book.

Poppinjay 08-28-2008 09:04 AM

I think witnessing another time, but not being able to participate might be much more workable. Otherwise, the closest we might come is coming in contact with another planet that is either behind or ahead of us in advancement.

I like the idea of a pensieve.

Baraka_Guru 08-28-2008 09:31 AM

I will stand behind the ideas of quantum theory and meditation. Well, a combination of the two, actually. Start your research with Buddhism and Descartes, perhaps.

Leto 08-28-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz (Post 2514574)
Years ago, I wrote a short story about the first time traveler ever, who unfortunately discovered that since the earth revolves around the sun and the sun around the Galactic Center, which is in turn moving outwards, that death by vacuum is very uncomfortable. Given that I suck as a writer and that the idea is pretty derivative, that story remains unread somewhere.

discussion of angular momentum can be a party pooper.
-----Added 28/8/2008 at 01 : 46 : 53-----
Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly (Post 2514593)
I vote for the method proposed in The Light of Other Days by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter.

Unfortunately, that's one of my favourite books and I'd hate to spoil it for you.

I just finished that last week. Excellent read!

RangerJoe 08-28-2008 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl (Post 2514575)
I imagine the most likely scenario, barring some kind of technical machine, is something similar to what happens in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series: the heroine steps through a cracked standing stone in Scotland and ends about 200 years in the past.

:surprised: My sister and I used to be obsessed with these books. Such a well written series, even if it's romance!


For time travel, I'm going to have to go with quantum theory, but only because my mom, sister, and I used to sit and watch Quantum Leap EVERY week. If time traveling isn't anything like that, including a hologram with a broken remote, then I want no part.

Jinn 08-28-2008 09:49 AM

I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

ratbastid 08-28-2008 09:51 AM

I think the mechanism of time travel is much less interesting than its ramifications. I'm willing to let an author wave their hands about the mechanism, if the conflict that it sets up is worth it.

See, in particular, 1973 novel The Man who Folded Himself by David Gerrold. Brilliant and seminal time-travel fic. At one point he throws a month-long party in his apartment for all of himselves from different times. Crazy. So crazy, in fact, that I didn't just give away the craziest part!

snowy 08-28-2008 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2514631)
I think the mechanism of time travel is much less interesting than its ramifications. I'm willing to let an author wave their hands about the mechanism, if the conflict that it sets up is worth it.

I agree. I'm willing to overlook a lot in this regard if the rest is a good read.

Halx 08-28-2008 09:58 AM

Yes, ratbastid, that's part of why I'm asking the audience about this trivial aspect. I've already got the big picture in my head.

Daniel_ 08-28-2008 10:00 AM

The cleverest method of time travel I came across is still one of my favourite books:

The Number of the Beast (novel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Ayashe 08-28-2008 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn (Post 2514628)
I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

I could only hope that it would never become possible. I believe we are meant to learn from our past and not repeat it.

Good luck with your story Halx, ruby red slippers? A little green pill? Scientific experiment with unexpected results? I haven't the faintest idea.

Willravel 08-28-2008 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn (Post 2514628)
I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

This is contradicted by relativity. Einstein demonstrated that there is no such thing as absolute time. If time is relative, then there is a continuum.

Rat brings up a very good point, but at the same time you don't want a bad explanation of time travel to distract the reader from the story you're trying to tell. Did anyone see the "A Sound of Thunder" movie? Christ...

World's King 08-28-2008 10:27 AM

Get blacked out drunk. Wake up three days later tied to a chair in a Vegas hotel room.

ratbastid 08-28-2008 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King (Post 2514649)
Get blacked out drunk. Wake up three days later tied to a chair in a Vegas hotel room.

Spider Robinson's Callahan's Place series features a characters referred to as a "time traveler" who was in political prisoner in a third world jail for many years. His story was about coping with the changes the world had undergone while he were separate from it.

Jinn 08-28-2008 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn
I don't believe we'll ever be able to travel "backwards" in time - I'm not convinced it's actually a directed continuum - I think the 'forward movement' of time is only an abstract concept created by humans to understand the progression of their lives.

As a matter of fact, consider any memory you have, an activity "you" participated in. If you consider the molecular structure of your body, very little of "you" was actually there. Most of your cells are not the same cells that were present during that memory.

Time is a measurement we use for categorizing history and laying our lives out in line, but time does not have an inherent directionality, if it exists at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel
This is contradicted by relativity. Einstein demonstrated that there is no such thing as absolute time. If time is relative, then there is a continuum.

Happy now? Not denying the continuum, but the directionality of it. (Note: So did Einstein, in his theories of relativity).

Leto 08-28-2008 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_ (Post 2514637)
The cleverest method of time travel I came across is still one of my favourite books:

The Number of the Beast (novel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Ahh yes. I must have read that book over 666 times, it was so good.

MSD 08-28-2008 08:14 PM

If you want science fiction, I'm envisioning a machine that rotates the person to be time traveled around a bundle of cosmic strings at close to the speed of light. At the proper point in the time-like curve, the machine inflicts some sort of normally fatal injury on the passenger to achieve quantum immortality, placing them in just the right point in time to continue as planned. Without the quantum suicide, the machine would balance centrifugal force against the quantum gravity of the cosmic strings to infinitely prolong the passage of time within the machine and let it pass at an arbitrarily fast rate outside, slowing as the desired future point in the time loop approaches.

ngdawg 08-28-2008 08:25 PM

There was a really cool Twilight Zone with Martin Landau who played a time traveler sent back in time to alter history-something about preventing the birth of a man who would start a world war or something.
Well, he gets to the man's grandmother and one thing leads to another and they both get into his time travelling spaceship where he'd planned on taking her to his future. But then, he starts to fade in and out and panic sets in.
When she wants to know what's happening, his reply is, to the effect: I changed the course of history....and...I....was...never...born...
And he disappears, leaving her alone in the time capsule.
Something to consider....

ratbastid 08-29-2008 04:39 AM

Read this. Pure genius.

fresnelly 08-29-2008 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2515024)
Read this. Pure genius.

Awesome!

Halx 08-29-2008 06:38 AM

Hey ratbastid, why are you posting a link without discussion?

:p

ratbastid 08-29-2008 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx (Post 2515057)
Hey ratbastid, why are you posting a link without discussion?

:p

What, "Pure genius" isn't enough discussion for you? ;)

Well... I'll just have to go back in time and alert my former self to your stringent posting guidelines.

...

Okay, I'm back. Damn it, that bastard didn't change it like I told him to! Why do I have to be so fucking stubborn? And why is there a dead butterfly sitting on my desk??

stevie667 08-29-2008 07:39 AM

If you want to avoid annoying paradoxes, use the multi-verse theory (i.e. lots of different dimensions which you time travel to and affect), or if you like paradoxes, make everything happen in your own universe (i.e. grandfather paradox).

I personally like the idea of time being a concrete dimension, so removing yourself from that dimension means you can essential re-insert yourself at another point (like jumping out and then back in a pool) in time. *just had good idea for own story*

In current realistic science fiction some sort of large machinery would be better suited (think hadron collider by-product), but if you like more fantasy then use mental abilities, or if you want retro, go with aliens.

Merlocke 09-04-2008 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly (Post 2515052)
Awesome!

BWAHAHAHAHA - ok that just made my day.
And the forum admin piece was just priceless...

I just googled superman time travel and found this link.
Perhaps the quiz might spark some creative juices for you Hal

Nisses 09-05-2008 01:25 AM

Definitly pure genius, that thread.

Time travelling: you can use ancient monuments as foci with some special events perhaps. Eclipses, position of moon/planets/... , needing a certain item for it to work.

That would suggest using a concrete dimension like Stevie suggested.

Hain 09-05-2008 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2514586)

Will, have I told you I love you, recently?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn (Post 2514695)
Happy now? Not denying the continuum, but the directionality of it. (Note: So did Einstein, in his theories of relativity).

Einstein did? Any who: there is a very interesting new theory of quantum spacetime that only works when the egg heads put some 4-th dimension of spacetime vector pointing towards the future---else the whole system collapses either into an infinitely long 1-D universe or into an infinitesimally small infinitely many dimensioned universe.
Quote:

Article: Using Causality to Solve the Puzzle of Quantum Spacetime
Source: Scientific American (http://www.SciAm.com)

Abstract: "A new approach to the decades-old problem of quantum gravity goes back to basics and shows how the building blocks of space and time pull themselves together
* Quantum theory and Einstein’s general theory of relativity are famously at loggerheads. Physicists have long tried to reconcile them in a theory of quantum gravity—with only limited success.
* A new approach introduces no exotic components but rather provides a novel way to apply existing laws to individual motes of spacetime. The motes fall into place of their own accord, like molecules in a crystal.
* This approach shows how four-dimensional spacetime as we know it can emerge dynamically from more basic ingredients. It also suggests that spacetime shades from a smooth arena to a funky fractal on small scales."   click to show 


Take it from me, time travel is a tricky thing.... :paranoid: Any who:
I agree with those that say meditation---inner-life time travel. Think Butterfly Effect with a machine twist and you have my favorite form of time travel.

UKking 09-05-2008 11:11 AM

Surely these are all the things that will define your book?

There's plenty of stories that detail machines, or experiences of 'traveling' somehow, or through no change at all like the alleyway that goes to 1942 in Goodnight Sweetheart.
I'd like some sort of confusing psychological thing. Where you fall asleep you dream you're in the past at an uncertain point, and by the end of the dream you wake up and it's happened, but it's all so hazy like a dream and there are the all the problems that'd result from that.

clavus 09-05-2008 11:43 AM

I don't care how you time travel, but for the love of GOD, please keep in mind that the planet is moving. Fast.

In the time it takes you to fall off a barstool and hit the floor, the Earth's spin will take you about half a mile east, the motion of the Earth around the Sun will carry you forty miles back West, the drift of our solar system will carry you twenty miles closer to the star Vega, and the spinning pinwheel of our galaxy will take you an additional 300 miles around our galactic center. More or less.

If you travel in time without traveling in space, you are going to end up in the void of space.

The only movie I have ever seen deal with this problem (and it did so poorly) was Primer.

Primer (film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

GREAT movie, BTW.

shakran 09-05-2008 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2514643)
This is contradicted by relativity. Einstein demonstrated that there is no such thing as absolute time. If time is relative, then there is a continuum.

Rat brings up a very good point, but at the same time you don't want a bad explanation of time travel to distract the reader from the story you're trying to tell. Did anyone see the "A Sound of Thunder" movie? Christ...

Exactly. Read Timeline by Michael Crichton. He gets a concept so horridly wrong that it completely deflates his plot because, by his own explanation of time travel, his plot is impossible.

So getting the mechanics is important.

It is relatively (ha ha) easy to go forward in time. We do it routinely, after all. And we can go forward in time faster - - just. . go faster. The closer you get to the speed of light, the faster forward in time you go. In theory if you travel to the Andromeda Galaxy and back at near-light speed, everyone you know will be long dead even though you were only gone 8 years. 8 years to you was many times that to those who didn't go as fast as you.

Travelling backward presents a more special problem. You essentially have to travel at a negative velocity, which is not physically possible in our universe/dimension. The only way to do it would be to envelop yourself in a bubble of space/time that is able to flow backwards. Some say that's possible, others say it's not.

In short, if your characters are going forward in time, just make them go really fast and you're set. If they're going backward in time, you're gonna have to make shit up ;)

ratbastid 09-05-2008 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavus (Post 2519340)
The only movie I have ever seen deal with this problem (and it did so poorly) was Primer.

Primer (film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

GREAT movie, BTW.

YES YES YES. Halx, if you're writing a time travel story, it's CRITICAL you see Primer. Probably a few times--you can't quite get it in one viewing, because there are things early on that you don't know to watch for. And it's well enough built that repeated viewings are logarithmically rewarding.

The "taking a copy of the machine through the machine" thing was BRILLIANT.

Cynthetiq 09-05-2008 01:02 PM

I'd go with ingesting some "miracle" plant, smoking, injecting, etc. The machines are just too played out for me.

MexicanOnABike 09-05-2008 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2519381)
YES YES YES. Halx, if you're writing a time travel story, it's CRITICAL you see Primer. Probably a few times--you can't quite get it in one viewing, because there are things early on that you don't know to watch for. And it's well enough built that repeated viewings are logarithmically rewarding.

The "taking a copy of the machine through the machine" thing was BRILLIANT.

I just came in this thread to say this exact thing. Primer IS THE TIME TRAVEL MOVIE. nothing else comes close to it for me.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 07 : 21 : 05-----
btw in reply to Cyn: I prefer a machine than a drug/plant/meditation. Because if that's the story, I will just expect it to be: "and then I came out of my drug trip and I was still sitting in my living room. It must have all been a dream! wow. I am so changed by what happened that I must now change my life to better myself. " *puke*

Redlemon 09-05-2008 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavus (Post 2519340)
If you travel in time without traveling in space, you are going to end up in the void of space.

The only movie I have ever seen deal with this problem (and it did so poorly) was Primer.

Spider Robinson also dealt with this issue in one of his later Callahan's novels (I intentionally won't mention which one), but it is a different time-traveler than the one Ratbastid mentioned.

clavus 09-07-2008 09:41 AM

The only safe way to write about time travel is to have some totally alien / mystic mechanism for it, and don't try to explain it. Make sure the characters don't understand it, so they don't need to explain it either.

Sensei Crap 09-07-2008 01:09 PM

My theory is this: Time travel is possible, but at the occurrence of the "event" as in the past, the added extra mass (that previously had not existed in that space/time) would destabilise the universe, as the universe only has a finite amount of mass. To get around this I made a story about the shifting of consciousness, which has no relativistic mass, back and forth through time.

Cervantes 09-07-2008 02:47 PM

I like H. P. Lovecraft's take on time travel (The Shadow Out of Time). You don't send your physical self through time but instead your mind "switch places" with another sentient who lives during that time. You get his or her body while they get yours.

Though the added complexity of narrating what happens in the past and the future at the same time can be a bit too much. Maybe you send your mind and temporarily take over another persons body, placing their mind in some sort of hibernation?

UKking 09-08-2008 06:56 AM

Quote:

How does someone jump through time? Is it a mental command? Is it a contraption they build? Is is a Delorean? Is it an alchemical concoction? Is it a portal?...
It's like the Transporter in Star Trek, but just like that technology, it raises questions. Why destroy the original? You may just project a copy of yourself into whichever place and time you are travelling.

Quote:

What happens when you go back in time? Do you end up in the same spot you would be, only 600 years in the past? Do you rewind time until you're an infant?...
You can only travel back to the time of the invention of the technology (1993), though there are theoretical possibilities for using naturally occurring singularities. Your travel forward is only limited by your power supply...

Quote:

Does a paradox prevent you from even existing? Do you solidify within a physical structure that occupies the space that you appear in? Is another dimension created where all the things you do will affect the future, meanwhile your old dimension continues on without you?
Can you travel between those dimensions?

What happens when you go forward in time? Do you occupy the body you would have, only older? Do you replicate and see a double of yourself?
All possibilities of coutcomes to all uncertain events creates infinitely intricate dimensional threads. Reading one of these as a timeline is the focus of a singular consciousness. Perceiveing aspects of alternate threads from the prime locus of the singular consciousness is what we're talking about here. The thread of "reality" in question is what it is, even with you added. There is nothing to "change". Your thread of origin is not affected...

Quote:

Time travel, being a fictional thing, is very subjective. What do you imagine happening if it could?
Maybe not so fictional as you imagine...

ItWasMe 09-08-2008 07:55 AM

How about a hand held device where you can enter the date you want and go? Possible everything within a 5 foot radius would go with you, so a bad guy could end up going with you to your next destination. Whether you want to automatically end up in the same place, or enter a destination in the hand held device, up to the writer. You could lose the device sometime, and have to go looking for it. Did you drop it when you saw your former self and had to duck quickly? Did he find it and you have to get it back before he figures out how to activate it? You could set yourself up to be able to do series. I think figuring out unsolved crimes/mysteries would be fun.

Willravel 09-08-2008 10:47 AM

Theorizing that one could time travel within his own forum, Halx stepped into the Quantum Leap accelerator--and vanished.

Jefferson 09-08-2008 01:36 PM

I would theorize that the actual jump through time would be caused by a bending of space-time with a chronoton field with a chronoton representing the physical nature of time. Personally, I think the mass displacement would be an interesting subject to broach. To compensate for it, I would make it sort of Quantum Leap style, in that every time a person jumps back, or forward, in time, someone the person that jumped knew or is related to distantly either switches places or dies to compensate for the mass shift.

host 09-08-2008 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2514586)
There are two directions to go with time travel: science fiction or fantasy. Fantasy is a lot easier, but it's less challenging to the reader and writer, so I'll assume you're going with science.

There are several schools of thought on time travel: .....

3) Quantum theory. Quantum theory is crazy. Even with the recent introduction of M theory, it's still a big mess that we barely understand. One of the most fascinating aspects of quantum theory is the instantaneous transfer of information. This information clearly moves much faster than light, and as such could theoretically, when applied to #2, move outside of time. When we develop a better understanding of this process, we may be able to harness it, but for the time being it's probably far to complex to be used without some artistic license. Also, considering the rate at which this particular area of science is growing, it's possible that your writing's science may become obsolete quickly. ...

Disclaimer....my comments are not an endorsement, a solicitation, or an invitation to experiment with any controlled substance/hallucinogencis.

35 years ago, I spent a number of months intensely contemplating the concept of reality and by extension, the meaning of life. This process of discovery, as a rite of passage, seems to have fallen out of favor, but it seemed the most important pursuit, back then. Some I knew were influenced by these inquiries to become deeply religious, but I ended up with an impatience driven curiousity......

I'll throw out a few things to consider..... I don't think you have to physically travel to experience the past or the future, I suspect it coexists in "our world". I don't know if any of this will help with a plot for a story, but I have been impressed with what has come from the Edgar Cayce trance state transcripts, and I visited the Cayce research center in Virginia Beach, 3 years ago.

One of my greatest frustrations is that, in our society, we don't even examine or contemplate our true potential, let alone attempt to "live up to it"...... Maybe this new CERN LHC, slated to come online, this week, will offer up more clues....

Quote:

Akashic Records - Edgar Cayce - Readings

Upon time and space is written the thoughts, the deeds, the activities of an entity – as in relationships to its environs, its hereditary influence; as directed – or judgment drawn by or according to what the entity's ideal is. Hence, as it has been oft called, the record is God's book of remembrance; and each entity, each soul – as the activities of a single day of an entity in the material world – either makes same good or bad or indifferent, depending upon the entity's application of self towards that which is the ideal manner for the use of time, opportunity and the expression of that for which each soul enters a material manifestation. The interpretation then as drawn here is with the desire and hope that, in opening this for the entity, the experience may be one of helpfulness and hopefulness.

Edgar Cayce reading 1650-1
Quote:

The Field: The Quest for the Secret ... - Google Book Search

....was one of a growing number of scientists trying to get some measure of the nature of human consciousness in the wake of the questions posed by quantum phsyics and the observer effect. If the human observer settled an electron into a set state, to what extent did he or she influence reality on a large scale? The observer effect suggested that reality only emerged from a primordial soup like the Zero Point Field with the involvement of living consciousness. The logical conclusion was that the physical world only existed in its concrete state while we were involved in it. Indeed, Schmidt wondered, was it true that nothing existed independenlty of our perception of it?

A Princeton Lab on ESP Plans to Close Its Doors - New York Times
A Princeton Lab on ESP Plans to Close Its Doors
By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: February 10, 2007

...Dr. Jahn, one of the world’s foremost experts on jet propulsion, defied the system. He relied not on university or government money but on private donations — more than $10 million over the years, he estimated. The first and most generous donor was his friend James S. McDonnell, a founder of the McDonnell Douglas Corporation......

...In one of PEAR’s standard experiments, the study participant would sit in front of an electronic box the size of a toaster oven, which flashed a random series of numbers just above and just below 100. Staff members instructed the person to simply “think high” or “think low” and watch the display. After thousands of repetitions — the equivalent of coin flips — the researchers looked for differences between the machine’s output and random chance.

Analyzing data from such trials, the PEAR team concluded that people could alter the behavior of these machines very slightly, changing about 2 or 3 flips out of 10,000. If the human mind could alter the behavior of such a machine, Dr. Jahn argued, then thought could bring about changes in many other areas of life — helping to heal disease, for instance, in oneself and others....

....Several expert panels examined PEAR’s methods over the years, looking for irregularities, but did not find sufficient reasons to interrupt the work. In the 1980s and 1990s, PEAR published more than 60 research reports, most appearing in the journal of the Society for Scientific Exploration, a group devoted to the study of topics outside the scientific mainstream. Dr. Jahn and Ms. Dunne are officers in the society.......
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After a Short Delay, Quantum Mechanics Becomes Even Weirder -- Cho 2007 (216): 4 -- ScienceNOW
After a Short Delay, Quantum Mechanics Becomes Even Weirder

By Adrian Cho
ScienceNOW Daily News
16 February 2007
According to quantum mechanics, light can be either a graceful rippling wave or a hail of bulletlike particles, depending on how you look at it. Now, an experiment shows that an observer can make the choice retroactively, after light has entered a measuring apparatus. The result shows that reality is truly in the eye of the beholder....

...If the second splitter was on, interference between the two pieces directed the recombined wave of probability toward one or the other of two detectors, depending on the difference in the path lengths. If the second beam splitter was turned off so the waves couldn't recombine, then the photon took one path or the other with 50-50 probability, and equal numbers of photons reached detectors. The results, reported this week in Science, prove that the photon does not decide whether to behave like a particle or a wave when it hits the first beam splitter, Roch says. Rather, the experimenter decides only later, when he decides whether to put in the second beam splitter. In a sense, at that moment, he chooses his reality....

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Breaking the Time Barrier: The Race ... - Google Book Search

USAF overflight experiment using Baird's "Noctovision" camera, recorded images in an empty parking lot of cars that had already exited....

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On September 10, a first beam of protons will circulate in the LHC. This will be an exciting time for the CERN staff..

LHC 2008

Secret dimensions
CERN - Secret dimensions

Willravel 09-08-2008 07:31 PM

So it could be possible for human consciousness to operate outside of or manipulate the perception of time.

KnifeMissile 09-09-2008 10:38 PM

I don't mean to hijack this thread but... I... must stop... the spread of... misinformation...

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Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2514586)
2) Go really, really fast. Because time slows as an object comes closer to the speed of light, some scientists (but mostly sci-fi writers) theorize that moving faster than light could propel one backwards in time. This main issues with this are that breaking the speed of light is a touchy subject with physicists. I actually saw a professor of astronomy knifed once over it by a roving band of resident physicists, it's that serious. The only theoretical way for matter to break the speed of light is by manipulating gravity by an obscene amount, which would (referencing #1) require gobs of energy. The most popular instance in fiction of this warping of space via gravity is the warp drive of Star Trek. The energy used in the fictional process is gathered from colliding matter with anti-matter and channeling that energy through a fictional crystal which somehow translates the incredible energy that would theoretically be released from the matter/anti-matter explosion into some form of energy that can be used. That translated energy is sent to the "warp coils" (another totally fictional tech) which somehow generate an incredibly powerful and easily controlled warp bubble. That bubble bends space, making space move faster than light. In order to make this work in a science fiction, you would need to use creative license with the tech that could generate that effect.

All physicists trivially agree that going faster than light implies that there exists some frame of reference for which you can be said to be going back in time. The sci-fi part is in the FTL traveling.

Also, I don't think that StarTrek warp drives use "gravity" to warp space, as such. They just do so, arbitrarily (something mass doesn't do via gravity), by some unspecified mechanism...

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3) Quantum theory. Quantum theory is crazy. Even with the recent introduction of M theory, it's still a big mess that we barely understand. One of the most fascinating aspects of quantum theory is the instantaneous transfer of information. This information clearly moves much faster than light, and as such could theoretically, when applied to #2, move outside of time. When we develop a better understanding of this process, we may be able to harness it, but for the time being it's probably far to complex to be used without some artistic license. Also, considering the rate at which this particular area of science is growing, it's possible that your writing's science may become obsolete quickly.
Quantum theory is crazy but it's just not that crazy.

There is no such thing as "instantaneous transfer of information." Indeed, simultaneity is relative so one must wonder in what reference frame said information was instantaneously transfered in.

There are quantum interactions that may appear to someone with a naive understanding of physics to transfer information instantaneously. Perhaps this is what you're thinking?

As I said before, anything traveling faster than light, even information, is necessarily traveling back in time relative to some reference frame.

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Originally Posted by shakran (Post 2519374)
Travelling backward presents a more special problem. You essentially have to travel at a negative velocity, which is not physically possible in our universe/dimension. The only way to do it would be to envelop yourself in a bubble of space/time that is able to flow backwards. Some say that's possible, others say it's not.

Traveling at a negative velocity is easy. Just go backwards 'cause that's what it means. I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking, here. Again, traveling faster than light allows you to travel back in time.

Having negative mass would allow you to travel faster than light and, hence, back in time. In fact, having negative mass would necessitate you traveling faster than light because it's impossible for negative mass to travel slower than light. Interesting, eh? Maybe this is what you were thinking?

RWE 09-10-2008 01:52 AM

I actually like post #2 in this topic, posted by TheJazz. I've often envisioned time travel going to "the same location" as the same physical point in space. That is, if you were on the earth in New York, there's no guarantee that you'd even end up near earth after time traveling. I think there's some room for creative exploration here--if the time traveler uses some space craft or at least a space-hardy machine, adventures could ensue with the nearby planets, asteroids, or whatever else may be at that point in time.

BadNick 09-10-2008 03:43 AM

While I like to imagine all sorts of interesting scenarios about going back in time, I think we'll find out, or we already know, that time marches on, the arrow of time only points in one direction, the nature of the beast is that it only goes one way. So no matter what kind of worm hole or warp we ever accomplish, we will be able to go forward but never backwards. Even the mundane examples we have of time dilation due to higher relative velocity, such as astronauts when they were in space, or traveling near or at or over the speed of light, when you slow down and compare to a reference that was not doing that, you will have gone forward but you can't go back again. But for interesting stories sake, I like to fantasize about the impossible. At least this is what I think about time travel now.


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