There is no Jewish race - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 08-20-2008, 07:35 AM

As an atheist, I get slightly annoyed (not offended) when people say that I'm Jewish just because my mom is. Everyone who learns that my mom is Jewish has told me that I am Jewish because of this. My mom's not even real Jewish, you know? After raising me around Hanukkah and Yum Kippur and Passover, even she's an atheist now. My family is that Los Angeles brand of Jewish; you need SOME social circle to belong to, right? I'm not even circumcised.

The idea that you're Jewish because your parents are (specifically, your mother) is actually just a vile lie concocted by a French anti-semite over 100 years ago. I forgot his name, but its in my old college notes kept at my parents house. Can you believe I studied this? The idea was if you could define a Jew by their features and heritage, it would be easier to identify them and thus remove them from society. He drew up the rules of Jewish identification, starting with heritage and moving on to the shape and size of facial features.

Obviously, this was done in a period where hating Jews was all the rage, so people actually listened and this big fiasco was assimilated into popular knowledge. Now, today, when it is now not so cool to hate Jews, this lie persists. People think it is elementary to just suggest that someone is a Jew because their mother is one, or because their nose is big with a crook it in. Well, I'm writing this to re-educate you. You're wrong.

My grandparents might be Jewish, and when I was born, my mother might have identified with the Jewish faith, but I am not Jewish. Judaism is a religion; a personal choice. Please respect someone when they say they are not Jewish, because that probably means they AREN'T.

Xazy · 08-20-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

As an atheist, I get slightly annoyed (not offended) when people say that I'm Jewish just because my mom is. Everyone who learns that my mom is Jewish has told me that I am Jewish because of this. My mom's not even real Jewish, you know? After raising me around Hanukkah and Yum Kippur and Passover, even she's an atheist now. My family is that Los Angeles brand of Jewish; you need SOME social circle to belong to, right? I'm not even circumcised.

The idea that you're Jewish because your parents are (specifically, your mother) is actually just a vile lie concocted by a French anti-semite over 100 years ago. I forgot his name, but its in my old college notes kept at my parents house. Can you believe I studied this? The idea was if you could define a Jew by their features and heritage, it would be easier to identify them and thus remove them from society. He drew up the rules of Jewish identification, starting with heritage and moving on to the shape and size of facial features.

Obviously, this was done in a period where hating Jews was all the rage, so people actually listened and this big fiasco was assimilated into popular knowledge. Now, today, when it is now not so cool to hate Jews, this lie persists. People think it is elementary to just suggest that someone is a Jew because their mother is one, or because their nose is big with a crook it in. Well, I'm writing this to re-educate you. You're wrong.

My grandparents might be Jewish, and when I was born, my mother might have identified with the Jewish faith, but I am not Jewish. Judaism is a religion; a personal choice. Please respect someone when they say they are not Jewish, because that probably means they AREN'T.

Shalom my brother.

But seriously though you are actually very incorrect in your time line of this belief, considering that it is in Jewish Seforim and rabbinical commentary I can not say for sure the earliest, first one I can note (offhand) is from around 70 CE when the Mishnah originated which was the time of the first temple. But basic Jewish belief is if your mother is Jewish you are. If your father is Jewish your mother is not you are not considered Jewish (of course you can always convert).

abaya · 08-20-2008, 07:54 AM

See my response in the "Are you Christian?" thread...

Halx · 08-20-2008, 07:57 AM

I'm not prepared to argue against someone who contradicts my educational studies by citing common belief. Part of my goal when studying religious history, sociology and psychology is identifying when certain concepts throughout history entered into the public mind.

Xazy · 08-20-2008, 08:01 AM

Educational studies? You cited some frenchman by no name from 100 years ago as the source of this belief. I am saying this religious belief comes from Jewish books from 70CE. There are passages in the Torah itself that elude that the child from a man may lead a stray but no comments from the mother. There is fact from the book of ruth about her heritage. But the place I can point out that says it straight forward is in the Mishnah that was done about 70ce (can not pin point exact date).

I believe you have an issue separating whether being Jewish is a religion or a nationality. I believe in it being both.

Rekna · 08-20-2008, 08:04 AM

The problem is Jews are an ethnoreligious group. Meaning the group is defined by both ethnicity and religion. You have the ethnicity but not the religion so it is partially correct to call you jewish.

Quote:

The term Ethnoreligious (or ethno-religious) refers to a group or groups of people unified by a common religious culture but displaying distinct characteristics of an ethnic group. Ethnoreligious communities define their identity neither exclusively by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation, but often through a combination of both.

The Jews are today perhaps the largest and most familiar ethnoreligious community. Ascertaining and defining membership in the Jewish people (the question of "who is a Jew") involves both a traditional religious component and an ethnic one.

Other, smaller or lesser known ethnoreligious communities which combine ethnic identity with religious belonging include the Samaritans, the Parsis, the Assyrians, the Nasranis, the Yazidi (more often considered a religious minority within the religiously-diverse Kurdish ethnicity), and the Mandaeans, among others.

Quote:

Who is a Jew?

Main article: Who is a Jew?

Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used.[18] Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion.[19] At times conversion has accounted for a substantial part of Jewish population growth. In the first century of the Christian era, for example, the population more than doubled, from 4 to 8–10 million within the confines of the Roman Empire, in good part as a result of a wave of conversion.[20]

Historical definitions of Jewish identity have traditionally been based on halakhic definitions of matrilineal descent, and halakhic conversions. Historical definitions of who is a Jew date back to the codification of the oral tradition into the Babylonian Talmud. Interpretations of sections of the Tanach, such as Deuteronomy 7:1-5, by learned Jewish sages, are used as a warning against intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews because "[the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." Leviticus 24:10 says that the son in a marriage between a Hebrew woman and an Egyptian man is "of the community of Israel." This contrasts with Ezra 10:2-3, where Israelites returning from Babylon, vow to put aside their gentile wives and their children. Since the Haskalah, these halakhic interpretations of Jewish identity have been challenged.

Jinn · 08-20-2008, 08:05 AM

I agree with your post, but not your thread title.

There *is* a Jewish Race. There was enough in-group breeding to solidify a set of ethnic characteristics unique from other human ethnic groups. You can be Jewish (religious) without being of the Jewish race.

DNA and the Origins of the Jewish Ethnic Groups

It wasn't just some "old french anti-semite." In the age of DNA, we can tell that there are very distinct racial characteristics of Jews-by-heritage, just like there are distinct racial characteristics of African Americans (black skin, perhaps?)

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

LoganSnake · 08-20-2008, 08:21 AM

If your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish. I'm an atheist too, and so is my mother. However, I am Jewish because my mother is who is Jewish because her mother is, etc. I don't know anything about this French anti-semite but the maternal descent comes from the Halacha laws.

Quote:

Judaism introduced matrilineal descent somewhere in the period of the Second Temple and the Roman occupation according to Prof. Shaye Cohen

Matrilineal Descent in Judaism

Halx · 08-20-2008, 08:24 AM

Forgive me for not having my notes ready. I want to shed some light on why people are so tuned into what makes a Jew, without even considering the religious side of it. Over the last century, this idea has grown into popular culture.

Xazy · 08-20-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Forgive me for not having my notes ready. I want to shed some light on why people are so tuned into what makes a Jew, without even considering the religious side of it. Over the last century, this idea has grown into popular culture.

How can you have someone as 'Jewish' without there being a religion involved?

Halx · 08-20-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

How can you have someone as 'Jewish' without there being a religion involved?

That's my point exactly.

Ayashe · 08-20-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

Educational studies? You cited some frenchman by no name from 100 years ago as the source of this belief. I am saying this religious belief comes from Jewish books from 70CE. There are passages in the Torah itself that elude that the child from a man may lead a stray but no comments from the mother. There is fact from the book of ruth about her heritage. But the place I can point out that says it straight forward is in the Mishnah that was done about 70ce (can not pin point exact date).

I believe you have an issue separating whether being Jewish is a religion or a nationality. I believe in it being both.

As you have said it is a religious belief. Halx does not subscribe to this religious belief, so the point of what it says in the Torah (I assume) is moot to him. I mean this in the most respectful way to you Xazy, I do not mean this to insult your personal beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

I agree with your post, but not your thread title.

There *is* a Jewish Race. There was enough in-group breeding to solidify a set of ethnic characteristics unique from other human ethnic groups. You can be Jewish (religious) without being of the Jewish race.

DNA and the Origins of the Jewish Ethnic Groups

It wasn't just some "old french anti-semite." In the age of DNA, we can tell that there are very distinct racial characteristics of Jews-by-heritage, just like there are distinct racial characteristics of African Americans (black skin, perhaps?)

Jewish Genetics - DNA, genes, Jews, Ashkenazi

I have never understood how a religion can be a race personally. From the medical standpoint we would never do so, it would fall under religion. As interesting a subject can be I have never studied it personally. Like many social groups they preferred to stick to their "own kind" I suppose. Keeping a tighter knit community of one religion I can see how over time there would be similarities.

Not to sound ignorant or go to far off topic, but I wonder if similar points could be found with other religious groups. For example, Catholics with the way they tend to view mixed religion and marriage being frowned upon. Not to attack Catholics either but I know many Catholic churches will not perform a wedding ceremony unless the non-catholic partner converts. I think the same could be said of Muslims, though I do not know much about it personally. At least where I live, there is no question that Muslims have an extremely tight community and tend not to mix much from those outside of it. Thoughts to ponder...

LoganSnake · 08-20-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

How can you have someone as 'Jewish' without there being a religion involved?

Quote:

Being Jewish means you are a part of a religious movement. However, the great majority of Jews become a part of the religious movement through birth and not due to their beliefs or actions. In this way, being Jewish is like being a citizen of a religious movement.

A Jewish identity is automatically bestowed on the babies of Jewish mothers (according to Orthodox and Conservative Judaism) and of Jewish mothers or fathers (according to Reform Judaism). This Jewish identity stays with them throughout life even if they don't actively practice Judaism.

Willravel · 08-20-2008, 08:48 AM

Oy, what a mess.

Go look up "ethnoreligious" and you'll have your answer.

World's King · 08-20-2008, 08:49 AM

I don't fallow the religion but because of my family I still call myself a Catholic.

And Catholicism defiantly isn't a race.

Leto · 08-20-2008, 08:52 AM

what about the term race versus ethnicity? Jinn states that there is a Jewish race. I'm not up on my racial definitions (and I'd hate to do a diservice by using Wikipedia) but I was under the impression that there were historically 3 different races, of which Jewish people - at least the Semitic ones - belong to the Caucasian group.

Now, I've heard that the historical division of races into the three groupings was facile, and categorization has now switched to blood groupings rather than surface physical features. So in this light it may indeed be possible to narrow the 'racial' definition of a like group of people to an ethnicity.

I must do some reading on the current state of this.

Xazy · 08-20-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katyanna

As you have said it is a religious belief. Halx does not subscribe to this religious belief, so the point of what it says in the Torah (I assume) is moot to him. I mean this in the most respectful way to you Xazy, I do not mean this to insult your personal beliefs.

I do not care if he considers himself Jewish or not that is his choice. Other Jews and I will consider him Jewish. I never go around saying you are Jewish or force my belief on anyone at all, but that does not change from a Jewish stand point that if your mother is Jewish you are consider a Jew. I do not care what you believe and do that is between you and G-d not my place to judge. But the point I made as well is this belief is not something new for Jews, this is the Jewish belief and is documented for over 2000 years and comments in the Torah itself lead to it (which makes the origination of the belief way back when).

Rekna · 08-20-2008, 09:11 AM

Ever notice that sometimes the word jew is proceeded by either ethnic or religious?

ie ethnic jews or religious jews. The problem is an ambiguity in the word. The word jew has 2 distinct meanings. However, since lots of ethnic jews are also religious jews people tend to believe there is only 1 meaning for the word jew and that is where Halx's annoyance is stemming from.

PonyPotato · 08-20-2008, 09:28 AM

To Jinn and everyone else in a hubbub about race: biologically, a race is a subspecies. There are no known subspecies of humans, because geographic and sexual isolation is a requirement for defining a true genetic race. The amount of variation within a race must be smaller than the amount of variation within the parent species, something that is impossible to achieve within the constraints of cultural definitions of race.

So, there is no Jewish race, as Hal said. There IS a religion, and there IS an ethnic association with such religion.

Willravel · 08-20-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

There are no known current subspecies of humans, because geographic and sexual isolation is a requirement for defining a true genetic race.

FTFY!

Leto · 08-20-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

To Jinn and everyone else in a hubbub about race: biologically, a race is a subspecies. There are no known subspecies of humans, because geographic and sexual isolation is a requirement for defining a true genetic race. The amount of variation within a race must be smaller than the amount of variation within the parent species, something that is impossible to achieve within the constraints of cultural definitions of race.

So, there is no Jewish race, as Hal said. There IS a religion, and there IS an ethnic association with such religion.

And we are talking biology here aren't we? Thanks for the clarrification.

PonyPotato · 08-20-2008, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

And we are talking biology here aren't we? Thanks for the clarrification.

Jinn started in on race and was talking about it genetically, which is biology. The cultural and biological definitions of race are at arms with one another, actually.

The cultural definition is better served by the term ethnicity, which has already been discussed in the thread (along with ethnoreligious).

Rekna · 08-20-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

To Jinn and everyone else in a hubbub about race: biologically, a race is a subspecies. There are no known subspecies of humans, because geographic and sexual isolation is a requirement for defining a true genetic race. The amount of variation within a race must be smaller than the amount of variation within the parent species, something that is impossible to achieve within the constraints of cultural definitions of race.

So, there is no Jewish race, as Hal said. There IS a religion, and there IS an ethnic association with such religion.

The problem is that when someone says someone is African, or Jewish, or Chinese they are referring to their ethnicity. So if one of Halx's parents were ethnically jewish then calling him jewish would be an accurate description though it could be easily miss interpreted by people to assume that he believed in Judaism.

abaya · 08-20-2008, 10:12 AM

Hal: Do you get just as annoyed when people ask if you are Portuguese, based on your last name? It's also an ethnicity, though granted not one tied up with religiousity (though you might count Catholicism in there).

Halx · 08-20-2008, 10:20 AM

I get annoyed when people ask if I'm Spanish or Mexican or South American based on my last name just because they don't know what they're saying. I'm actually pleasantly surprised when people recognize it as Portuguese. This IS an ethnicity question though, not a race question. As far as I'm concerned though, I have no culture. I'm a suburban atheist mutt. I don't celebrate your holidays. I don't worship your god. I don't respect my family for anything more than the love they give me.

To suggest that I am Jewish is an insult to Jews.

BadNick · 08-20-2008, 10:21 AM

I only have limited personal experience with this issue, but based on that I think it's not uncommon for some people of Jewish heritage to support the idea that one is/can be Jewish even if you have no belief or participation in Judism. My belief (casual, unsubstantiated by any research) is that this idea might be propogated by the "communal persecution" felt by Jewish people since most of us know the magnitude of suffering that has been directed toward Jews. I suppose this must be a powerful wound that binds people together in spite of other major differences...stick together to survive.

My wife and her extended family are of Jewish heritage but have always been religiously/philosophically atheistic; my brother-in-law was not even bar mitzvah'd. I was raised and educated Roman Catholic though since early college days I don't participate or believe in many of Catholic religious tenents...so I don't consider myself Catholic at all. But when my kids, who have not been raised with any association whatsoever to Judism (or Catholicism), ask their mom "what are we?" she says "...you're Jewish because I am". To bring my confusion even closer to home, I was circumcised when I was 9 years old since my Catholic parents became convinced that it was a good medical decision. No wonder I'm so screwed up ....

j/k I'm as normal as the next wacko.

abaya · 08-20-2008, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

I'm actually pleasantly surprised when people recognize it as Portuguese. This IS an ethnicity question though, not a race question. As far as I'm concerned though, I have no culture. I'm a suburban atheist mutt.

Hold up, why is being Jewish about race, not ethnicity and/or religion? What informs that opinion? Race is a social category, made up by humans as a form of categorizing people based on the most easily observable physical traits. Technically, you have just as much Jewish "blood" as you do Portuguese "blood," right?... so why do you have a problem with the Jewish ethnicity, and not the Portuguese one?

And btw, I beg to differ that you have no culture. Live overseas for an extended period of time and see if you still think you have no culture. No human can completely escape the trappings of the environment in which they were raised.

Halx · 08-20-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Technically, you have just as much Jewish "blood" as you do Portuguese "blood," right?... so why do you have a problem with the Jewish ethnicity, and not the Portuguese one?

Both are incorrect. I've had to deal with people ALWAYS spelling my name incorrectly, so its actually a relief when people spell it right the first time and I can appreciate that they know where it originated from. The Jewish thing is downright annoying the same way people can't spell my name right.

Jinn · 08-20-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

To Jinn and everyone else in a hubbub about race: biologically, a race is a subspecies. There are no known subspecies of humans, because geographic and sexual isolation is a requirement for defining a true genetic race. The amount of variation within a race must be smaller than the amount of variation within the parent species, something that is impossible to achieve within the constraints of cultural definitions of race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In 1978, Sewall Wright suggested that human populations that have long inhabited separated parts of the world should, in general, be considered to be of different subspecies by the usual criterion that most individuals of such populations can be allocated correctly by inspection. It does not require a trained anthropologist to classify an array of Englishmen, West Africans, and Chinese with 100% accuracy by features, skin color, and type of hair in spite of so much variability within each of these groups that every individual can easily be distinguished from every other. However, it is customary to use the term race rather than subspecies for the major subdivisions of the human species as well as for minor ones.

Humans can be correctly assigned to races at much greater than 75% accuracy on the basis of morphological traits while chimpanzee subspecies are morphologically indistinct, and difficult or impossible to classify when raised in captivity.

I can spot a "racial" Jew. I can't spot a religious Jew.

World's King · 08-20-2008, 10:46 AM

So what is he?

Jinn · 08-20-2008, 10:53 AM

He is visibly an ethnic African American, despite his partial Puerto Rican heritage and Jewish religion.

Ethnicity is nothing more than phenotype.

I don't really want to get into the "race" vs "ethnicity" debate, because it's a sociological circle jerk about two words which have the same colloquial meaning.

World's King · 08-20-2008, 10:56 AM

Thanks Jinn... It was a joke.

ngdawg · 08-20-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

I can spot a "racial" Jew. I can't spot a religious Jew.

Sure ya can...the men wear yarmulkes and the women wear long skirts and wigs or scarves.
If they're Hasidic, they commonly have beards and peyes(the long curls on their faces) in addition to their distinctive way of dressing.

Leto · 08-20-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

...
I don't really want to get into the "race" vs "ethnicity" debate, because it's a sociological circle jerk about two words which have the same colloquial meaning.

You may not want to, but the term race gets bandied about very loosely. Often mistaken for ethnicity leading to much tangental discussion.

The terms need to be defined to be argued. And they do not have the same colloquial meaning.

levite · 08-20-2008, 11:52 AM

Technically, Hal, you're right: Judaism is not a race. Biologically, a race is as merleniau defined it. and there are no subspecies of human. Semantically, we in the U.S. use the word "race" to refer to characteristics defined by someone's physical appearance, primarily skin color. Neither applies to Jews.

However, Judaism is more than a religion. It is an ethnoreligious culture, meaning that it is a religion, an ethnicity, and a culture, all inextricably fused and intertwined. There have been a number of attempts during modern Jewish history to separate one element of Judaism from another, and all have more or less failed notably.

We call Jews an ethnic group in part because they often share characteristic genetic markers, such as in the case of kohanim (the priestly tribe), nearly 90% of whom share similar markers in Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1 (markers only shared by about 80% of non-kohen Jews, and very few non-Jews at all), or in the case of Ashkenazi Jews, of whom well over 60% are genetically more prone to develop Tay-Sachs disease than other people. In part, we call Jews an ethnic group because they are traditionally endogamous, and all Jews have always agreed that membership in the Jewish people is transmissible by birth. Although it might blur the line with culture, some have also said that the sharing of a common language and a common religion can also be defining characteristics of an ethnic group.

Perhaps the most important cultural aspect of Judaism is that, generally speaking, we say that cultures establish their own membership rules. And although in the case of Judaism, this blurs the boundaries between culture and religion, it is quite clear that from the First Century CE to the Twentieth Century, more or less all Jews agreed that having a Jewish mother meant that the child of that mother was Jewish. Today, the Reform movement of Judaism says that having either parent be Jewish is enough to call the child of those parents Jewish, although this is not accepted by the other movements of Judaism, as there is no traditional basis for such a statement. But even in the case of Reform Judaism, they do not dispute the idea that Judaism is an identity transmissible by birth. Moreover, Jews have always agreed-- at least from the First Century onward-- that once a Jew, always a Jew: whether by birth or by conversion, a Jew is considered Jewish forever by Jewish law and Jewish tradition, regardless of the person's behavior or claims of identity. Even if they reject Jewish beliefs, and go through the rituals of converting to another religion, Judaism still calls such people Jewish-- just non-practicing or non-identifying or (from the religious perspective) sinning Jews. In the past, it is true, such individuals were commonly put in herem, a status not unlike excommunication, or shunning, but such a status is inherently temporary, requiring only the individual's public recantation of his or her former ways (and some also say a trip to the mikveh, or ritual bath) to rejoin normative Jewish society.

I believe when you cite the phenomenon of Judaism being incorrectly called a "race," and originate it with some Frenchman a hundred years ago, you might be confusing two issues: the nature of Judaism as an ethnoreligious culture-- a phenomenon noted frequently long before a hundred years ago-- and the development of anti-Semitic racialist theories by racist scientists of the late Nineteenth Century-- these are the same people who brought us the concepts of craniometry, phrenology, and eugenics for controlled racial hygiene. These latter, it is true, mislabeled the Jews a "race," for the purposes of further anti-Semitism, but their canards ought not to be mistaken for the genesis of the legitimate phenomenon of Judaism as an ethnoreligious culture.

Discussions of Jews and Jewish cultural and religious phenomena are extant in literature as far back as Roman times, including mentions in Suetonius, Socrates of Constantinople, and Procopius, as well as later in commentaries on the Theodosian Code. A number of ancient and medieval writers, especially among the Church Fathers, made comments concerning the Jews, their society and culture, and the difficulty of getting Jews to convert to Christianity, since in doing so they gave up not only their religion but their entire sociocultural experience (my phrasing, not theirs).

Needless to say, Jewish literature is itself very clear on the subject. There are, as Xazy already pointed out, oblique references to ethnic and cultural integrity in the Torah. Certainly, Rabbinic literature (the materials composed during and around the authoring of the Talmud, in the first five centuries of the Common Era) makes frequent mention of Judaism as a "people," and discusses at length the factors and qualities of Jewish identity. Indeed, the term "the Jewish People" has become common parlance over the past 2,000 years-- a terminology not applied to adherents of other Western religions, and for clear reasons.

The idea of Judaism as an ethnoreligious culture is not entirely unique. Many Native American nations would qualify for such a definition, and some of the Hindu religions are inextricably interlinked with membership in certain tribes or clans, from certain areas. A number of sub-Saharan African religions are also peculiar to specific tribal groups from a specific locale. Among the Western religions, it is true that Judaism is the strictest definition of an ethnoreligious culture, but many scholars have proposed that Islam may also be an ethnoreligious culture, since it is also passed on by birth, and shares several other key characteristics with Judaism; although if it is an ethnoreligious culture, its social boundaries are much more permeable than those of Judaism.

As a fellow Jew, I'm sorry to hear that your Jewish identity displeases you, Hal. But by the definitions of the Jewish people, which are commonly held and respected by non-Jews also, you're a Jew, whether you're atheist or not. And hell, being an atheist certainly hasn't stopped lots of Jews from embracing certain aspects of their Jewish identity: most of the founding Zionists who began the State of Israel were atheists, who were none the less proud of their Jewish identities. Regardless, the point is, according to all the traditional definitions of the Jewish people, you are a Jew. What you do with your life is, of course, your own business: nobody will come around and try to force you to interact with Jewish society, or try to make you practice Jewish religion, or to take any pride in your Jewish identity at all.

But it's important that you make a distinction between the issue of Jewish identity as a whole and how that is constructed by the Jewish people and understood by the rest of the world in history, and your own feelings about your identity and your choice to reject it. The latter is entirely your business, and no one should ever say otherwise. The former is something that affects all of the rest of us; and there is enough controversy in the Jewish community right now with identity, given the shenanigans of the Reform movement, and the crisis of assimilation in modern society, that more vituperation-- to say nothing of misinformation-- is deeply counterproductive for the rest of us.

I really hope you don't take offense at this: I like your posts very much, and you seem like an awesome person. And I don't want to be the guy who gets in your face over religion and cultural identity, I really don't. But, as someone who is a professional student of Judaism, I feel like it's really important for me to say these things.

jewels · 08-20-2008, 12:05 PM

When asked, I say that both my parents were Jewish and I have a great deal of pride in my heritage.

Period.

It used to irk me when someone would ask me if I was "Spanish" or "Jewish". I don't view it as a race, but it's obvious that depending where you sit, it's going to look different. If someone wants to know if I'm a practicing Jew, I'll tell them what they want to know. If they want to choose a label for me, there are plenty of others that fit me quite well.

Jinn · 08-20-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Biologically, a race is as merleniau defined it. and there are no subspecies of human. Semantically, we in the U.S. use the word "race" to refer to characteristics defined by someone's physical appearance, primarily skin color. Neither applies to Jews

What the hell are you two talking about? There are absolutely discrete subspecies of humans, and thereby races.

Quote:

SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA GROUP
I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern Africa

A. Khoid (Hottentot) race
B. Sanid (Bushmen) race

II. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa

A. Central Congoid race (Geographic center and origin in the Congo river basin)

1. Palaecongoid subrace (the Congo river basin: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, Angola)
2. Sudanid subrace (western Africa: Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea)
3. Nilotid subrace (southern Sudan; the ancient Nubians were of this subrace)
4. Kafrid or Bantid subrace (east and south Africa: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Natal)

B. Bambutid race (African Pygmies)
C. Aethiopid race (Ethiopia, Somalia; hybridized with Caucasoids)

"OUT-OF-AFRICA" GROUP
I. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies

A. Mediterranid race

1. West Mediterranean or Iberid subrace (Spain, Portugal, Corsica, Sardinia, and coastal areas of Morocco and Tunisia; the Atlanto-Mediterranean peoples who expanded over much of the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe during the Mesolithic period were a branch of this subrace)
2. East Mediterranean or Pontid subrace (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria; Aegean coasts of Greece and Turkey)
3. Dinaricized Mediterraneans (Residual mixed types resulting from the blending of Mediterranids with Dinarics, Alpines or Armenids; not a unified type, has much regional variation; predominant element [over 60%] in Sicily and southern Italy, principal element in Turkey [35%], important element in western Syria, Lebanon and central Italy, common in northern Italy. The ancient Cappadocian Mediterranean subrace of Anatolia was dinaricized during the Bronze Age [second millennium B.C.] and is a major contributor to this type in modern Turkey.)
4. South Mediterranean or Saharid subrace (predominant in Algeria and Libya, important in Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt)
5. Orientalid or Arabid subrace (predominant in Arabia, major element from Egypt to Syria, primary in northern Sudan, important in Iraq, predominant element among the Oriental Jews)

B. Dinaric race (predominant in western Balkans [Dinaric Mountains] and northern Italy, important in the Czech Republic, eastern and southern Switzerland, western Austria and eastern Ukraine. Its distribution in Europe, and that of its derived Dinaricized Mediterranean type, may be associated with the expansion of the Neolithic Anatolian farmers beginning circa 6,500 B.C.)
C. Alpine race (predominant element in Luxembourg, primary in Bavaria and Bohemia, important in France, Hungary, eastern and southern Switzerland)
D. Ladogan race (named after Lake Ladoga; indigenous to Russia; includes Lappish subrace of arctic Europe)
E. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary; outlined in detail in The Nordish Race)
F. Armenid race (predominant element in Armenia, common in Syria, Lebanon and northern Iraq, primary element among the Ashkenazic Jews)
G. Turanid race (partially hybridized with Mongoloids; predominant element in Kazakhstan.; common in Hungary and Turkey)
H. Irano-Afghan race (predominant in Iran and Afghanistan, primary element in Iraq, common [25%] in Turkey)
I. Indic or Nordindid race (Pakistan and northern India)
J. Dravidic race (India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka [Ceylon]; ancient stabilized Indic-Veddoid [Australoid] blend)

II. Australoid Subspecies

A. Veddoid race (remnant Australoid population in central and southern India)
B. Negritos (remnants in Malaysia and the Philippines)
C. Melanesian race (New Guinea, Papua, Solomon Islands)
D. Australian-Tasmanian race (Australian Aborigines)

III. Mongoloid Subspecies

A. Northeast Asian or Northern Mogoloid race (various subraces in China, Manchuria, Korea and Japan)
B. Southeast Asian or Southern Mongoloid race (various subraces in southwest China, Indochina, Thailand, Myanmar [Burma], Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, the last four partly hybridized with Australoids)
C. Micronesian-Polynesian race (predominantly Southern Mongoloid partly hybridized with Australoids)
D. Ainuid race (remnants of aboriginal population in northern Japan)
E. Tungid race (Mongolia and Siberia, Eskimos)
F. Amerindian race (American Indians; various subraces)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarich and Miele, Race: The Reality of Human Differences

There is no accepted genetic standard as genetic knowledge is still too incomplete (as the authors point out, until very recently dogs could not be genetically distinguished from wolves), but there is a long-accepted phenotypic standard based on "sorting accuracy." Basically, by this standard, if the biologists who specialize in the study of a species can sort two different populations of the species based on phenotype or physical traits with 75% or more accuracy they are considered to be separate races. The authors point out that although races, unlike species, are not discrete, so some phenotypic overlap is to be expected of them, the fact is that there are at least twenty human populations that can be phenotypically distinguished from each other with a sorting accuracy of 100%. By the actual standards applied by biologists to non-human species, that of 75% or more sorting accuracy, there are literally hundreds of separate human races. The authors state that most people could even achieve close to 100% sorting accuracy in distinguishing the populations of Athens and Copenhagen. I would add that most people could also probably achieve a greater than 75% sorting accuracy in distinguishing the indigenous populations of London and Paris. So it is only by hypocritical double standards, applying different standards to the human species than non-human species, that biologists can deny the reality of human races. This standard allows the authors to state: "if we employ a straightforward definition of race -- for example, a population within a species that can be readily distinguished from other such populations on genetic grounds alone (that is, using only heritable features) -- then there can be no doubt of the existence of a substantial number of human races."

dlish · 08-20-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

And btw, I beg to differ that you have no culture. Live overseas for an extended period of time and see if you still think you have no culture. No human can completely escape the trappings of the environment in which they were raised.

i couldnt agree more. i havent felt more australian than i do since i moved to another country

jorgelito · 08-20-2008, 12:17 PM

There is no such thing as race.

There are ethnicities and cultures.

Jews are semitic I suppose but quite diverse. Very much so in fact. My time in Israel tells me it is near impossible to pick out "jews" by their phenotypical features. From pasty white Ashkenazis (the ones I'm familiar with having grown up in the northeast), to Ethiopians, to Asians, and the lovely bronze Mediterranean beauties, Israelis or "jews" run the gamut in terms of phenotype and "race".

When it comes to religion, Jews are also varied in their belief. Whether Hasidic, Orthodox, liberal, reform or secular, even Jews themselves have a difficult time coming together. Besides the Arab/Muslim threat, this is one of the biggest issues facing Israel today.

Hal, what's wrong with people asking you if you're Spanish or Mexican based on your last name? It's a fair and innocent question yes? And why are you offended by Jewish stereotypes but not other stereotypes?

Jinn · 08-20-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

There is no such thing as race.

This is the third or fourth time I've seen this in the thread. I'm surprised that it's such a commonly held belief. I understand wanting to believe that races or subspecies do not exist, but they absolutely do, both as a biological and sociological concept (commonly 'ethnicity', in sociological circles). I get the feeling far too many of you have been told by instructors or peers that the world is color blind or that races do not exist, but they absolutely do. I've posted enough citations for this thread, but if you're interested in rectifying your beliefs I can provide additional ones via PM. You could even try re-reading http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...ml#post2510400

08-20-2008, 07:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	There is no Jewish race As an atheist, I get slightly annoyed (not offended) when people say that I'm Jewish just because my mom is. Everyone who learns that my mom is Jewish has told me that I am Jewish because of this. My mom's not even real Jewish, you know? After raising me around Hanukkah and Yum Kippur and Passover, even she's an atheist now. My family is that Los Angeles brand of Jewish; you need SOME social circle to belong to, right? I'm not even circumcised. The idea that you're Jewish because your parents are (specifically, your mother) is actually just a vile lie concocted by a French anti-semite over 100 years ago. I forgot his name, but its in my old college notes kept at my parents house. Can you believe I studied this? The idea was if you could define a Jew by their features and heritage, it would be easier to identify them and thus remove them from society. He drew up the rules of Jewish identification, starting with heritage and moving on to the shape and size of facial features. Obviously, this was done in a period where hating Jews was all the rage, so people actually listened and this big fiasco was assimilated into popular knowledge. Now, today, when it is now not so cool to hate Jews, this lie persists. People think it is elementary to just suggest that someone is a Jew because their mother is one, or because their nose is big with a crook it in. Well, I'm writing this to re-educate you. You're wrong. My grandparents might be Jewish, and when I was born, my mother might have identified with the Jewish faith, but I am not Jewish. Judaism is a religion; a personal choice. Please respect someone when they say they are not Jewish, because that probably means they AREN'T. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

08-20-2008, 07:54 AM	#3 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	See my response in the "Are you Christian?" thread... __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

08-20-2008, 07:57 AM	#4 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I'm not prepared to argue against someone who contradicts my educational studies by citing common belief. Part of my goal when studying religious history, sociology and psychology is identifying when certain concepts throughout history entered into the public mind. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 08-20-2008 at 08:00 AM..

08-20-2008, 08:05 AM	#7 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I agree with your post, but not your thread title. There is a Jewish Race. There was enough in-group breeding to solidify a set of ethnic characteristics unique from other human ethnic groups. You can be Jewish (religious) without being of the Jewish race. DNA and the Origins of the Jewish Ethnic Groups It wasn't just some "old french anti-semite." In the age of DNA, we can tell that there are very distinct racial characteristics of Jews-by-heritage, just like there are distinct racial characteristics of African Americans (black skin, perhaps?) http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 08-20-2008 at 08:16 AM..

08-20-2008, 08:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Forgive me for not having my notes ready. I want to shed some light on why people are so tuned into what makes a Jew, without even considering the religious side of it. Over the last century, this idea has grown into popular culture. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

08-20-2008, 08:01 AM	#5 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Educational studies? You cited some frenchman by no name from 100 years ago as the source of this belief. I am saying this religious belief comes from Jewish books from 70CE. There are passages in the Torah itself that elude that the child from a man may lead a stray but no comments from the mother. There is fact from the book of ruth about her heritage. But the place I can point out that says it straight forward is in the Mishnah that was done about 70ce (can not pin point exact date). I believe you have an issue separating whether being Jewish is a religion or a nationality. I believe in it being both.

08-20-2008, 08:48 AM	#14 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Oy, what a mess. Go look up "ethnoreligious" and you'll have your answer.

08-20-2008, 08:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I don't fallow the religion but because of my family I still call myself a Catholic. And Catholicism defiantly isn't a race. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

08-20-2008, 08:52 AM	#16 (permalink)
Leto Junkie Location: The Danforth	what about the term race versus ethnicity? Jinn states that there is a Jewish race. I'm not up on my racial definitions (and I'd hate to do a diservice by using Wikipedia) but I was under the impression that there were historically 3 different races, of which Jewish people - at least the Semitic ones - belong to the Caucasian group. Now, I've heard that the historical division of races into the three groupings was facile, and categorization has now switched to blood groupings rather than surface physical features. So in this light it may indeed be possible to narrow the 'racial' definition of a like group of people to an ethnicity. I must do some reading on the current state of this.

08-20-2008, 09:11 AM	#18 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Ever notice that sometimes the word jew is proceeded by either ethnic or religious? ie ethnic jews or religious jews. The problem is an ambiguity in the word. The word jew has 2 distinct meanings. However, since lots of ethnic jews are also religious jews people tend to believe there is only 1 meaning for the word jew and that is where Halx's annoyance is stemming from.

08-20-2008, 09:28 AM	#19 (permalink)
PonyPotato Soaring Location: Ohio!	To Jinn and everyone else in a hubbub about race: biologically, a race is a subspecies. There are no known subspecies of humans, because geographic and sexual isolation is a requirement for defining a true genetic race. The amount of variation within a race must be smaller than the amount of variation within the parent species, something that is impossible to achieve within the constraints of cultural definitions of race. So, there is no Jewish race, as Hal said. There IS a religion, and there IS an ethnic association with such religion. __________________ "Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark." — Henri-Frédéric Amiel

08-20-2008, 10:12 AM	#24 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Hal: Do you get just as annoyed when people ask if you are Portuguese, based on your last name? It's also an ethnicity, though granted not one tied up with religiousity (though you might count Catholicism in there). __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

08-20-2008, 10:20 AM	#25 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I get annoyed when people ask if I'm Spanish or Mexican or South American based on my last name just because they don't know what they're saying. I'm actually pleasantly surprised when people recognize it as Portuguese. This IS an ethnicity question though, not a race question. As far as I'm concerned though, I have no culture. I'm a suburban atheist mutt. I don't celebrate your holidays. I don't worship your god. I don't respect my family for anything more than the love they give me. To suggest that I am Jewish is an insult to Jews. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

08-20-2008, 10:21 AM	#26 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	I only have limited personal experience with this issue, but based on that I think it's not uncommon for some people of Jewish heritage to support the idea that one is/can be Jewish even if you have no belief or participation in Judism. My belief (casual, unsubstantiated by any research) is that this idea might be propogated by the "communal persecution" felt by Jewish people since most of us know the magnitude of suffering that has been directed toward Jews. I suppose this must be a powerful wound that binds people together in spite of other major differences...stick together to survive. My wife and her extended family are of Jewish heritage but have always been religiously/philosophically atheistic; my brother-in-law was not even bar mitzvah'd. I was raised and educated Roman Catholic though since early college days I don't participate or believe in many of Catholic religious tenents...so I don't consider myself Catholic at all. But when my kids, who have not been raised with any association whatsoever to Judism (or Catholicism), ask their mom "what are we?" she says "...you're Jewish because I am". To bring my confusion even closer to home, I was circumcised when I was 9 years old since my Catholic parents became convinced that it was a good medical decision. No wonder I'm so screwed up .... j/k I'm as normal as the next wacko.

08-20-2008, 10:46 AM	#30 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	So what is he? __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

08-20-2008, 10:53 AM	#31 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	He is visibly an ethnic African American, despite his partial Puerto Rican heritage and Jewish religion. Ethnicity is nothing more than phenotype. I don't really want to get into the "race" vs "ethnicity" debate, because it's a sociological circle jerk about two words which have the same colloquial meaning. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

08-20-2008, 10:56 AM	#32 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Thanks Jinn... It was a joke. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

08-20-2008, 11:52 AM	#35 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	Technically, Hal, you're right: Judaism is not a race. Biologically, a race is as merleniau defined it. and there are no subspecies of human. Semantically, we in the U.S. use the word "race" to refer to characteristics defined by someone's physical appearance, primarily skin color. Neither applies to Jews. However, Judaism is more than a religion. It is an ethnoreligious culture, meaning that it is a religion, an ethnicity, and a culture, all inextricably fused and intertwined. There have been a number of attempts during modern Jewish history to separate one element of Judaism from another, and all have more or less failed notably. We call Jews an ethnic group in part because they often share characteristic genetic markers, such as in the case of kohanim (the priestly tribe), nearly 90% of whom share similar markers in Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1 (markers only shared by about 80% of non-kohen Jews, and very few non-Jews at all), or in the case of Ashkenazi Jews, of whom well over 60% are genetically more prone to develop Tay-Sachs disease than other people. In part, we call Jews an ethnic group because they are traditionally endogamous, and all Jews have always agreed that membership in the Jewish people is transmissible by birth. Although it might blur the line with culture, some have also said that the sharing of a common language and a common religion can also be defining characteristics of an ethnic group. Perhaps the most important cultural aspect of Judaism is that, generally speaking, we say that cultures establish their own membership rules. And although in the case of Judaism, this blurs the boundaries between culture and religion, it is quite clear that from the First Century CE to the Twentieth Century, more or less all Jews agreed that having a Jewish mother meant that the child of that mother was Jewish. Today, the Reform movement of Judaism says that having either parent be Jewish is enough to call the child of those parents Jewish, although this is not accepted by the other movements of Judaism, as there is no traditional basis for such a statement. But even in the case of Reform Judaism, they do not dispute the idea that Judaism is an identity transmissible by birth. Moreover, Jews have always agreed-- at least from the First Century onward-- that once a Jew, always a Jew: whether by birth or by conversion, a Jew is considered Jewish forever by Jewish law and Jewish tradition, regardless of the person's behavior or claims of identity. Even if they reject Jewish beliefs, and go through the rituals of converting to another religion, Judaism still calls such people Jewish-- just non-practicing or non-identifying or (from the religious perspective) sinning Jews. In the past, it is true, such individuals were commonly put in herem, a status not unlike excommunication, or shunning, but such a status is inherently temporary, requiring only the individual's public recantation of his or her former ways (and some also say a trip to the mikveh, or ritual bath) to rejoin normative Jewish society. I believe when you cite the phenomenon of Judaism being incorrectly called a "race," and originate it with some Frenchman a hundred years ago, you might be confusing two issues: the nature of Judaism as an ethnoreligious culture-- a phenomenon noted frequently long before a hundred years ago-- and the development of anti-Semitic racialist theories by racist scientists of the late Nineteenth Century-- these are the same people who brought us the concepts of craniometry, phrenology, and eugenics for controlled racial hygiene. These latter, it is true, mislabeled the Jews a "race," for the purposes of further anti-Semitism, but their canards ought not to be mistaken for the genesis of the legitimate phenomenon of Judaism as an ethnoreligious culture. Discussions of Jews and Jewish cultural and religious phenomena are extant in literature as far back as Roman times, including mentions in Suetonius, Socrates of Constantinople, and Procopius, as well as later in commentaries on the Theodosian Code. A number of ancient and medieval writers, especially among the Church Fathers, made comments concerning the Jews, their society and culture, and the difficulty of getting Jews to convert to Christianity, since in doing so they gave up not only their religion but their entire sociocultural experience (my phrasing, not theirs). Needless to say, Jewish literature is itself very clear on the subject. There are, as Xazy already pointed out, oblique references to ethnic and cultural integrity in the Torah. Certainly, Rabbinic literature (the materials composed during and around the authoring of the Talmud, in the first five centuries of the Common Era) makes frequent mention of Judaism as a "people," and discusses at length the factors and qualities of Jewish identity. Indeed, the term "the Jewish People" has become common parlance over the past 2,000 years-- a terminology not applied to adherents of other Western religions, and for clear reasons. The idea of Judaism as an ethnoreligious culture is not entirely unique. Many Native American nations would qualify for such a definition, and some of the Hindu religions are inextricably interlinked with membership in certain tribes or clans, from certain areas. A number of sub-Saharan African religions are also peculiar to specific tribal groups from a specific locale. Among the Western religions, it is true that Judaism is the strictest definition of an ethnoreligious culture, but many scholars have proposed that Islam may also be an ethnoreligious culture, since it is also passed on by birth, and shares several other key characteristics with Judaism; although if it is an ethnoreligious culture, its social boundaries are much more permeable than those of Judaism. As a fellow Jew, I'm sorry to hear that your Jewish identity displeases you, Hal. But by the definitions of the Jewish people, which are commonly held and respected by non-Jews also, you're a Jew, whether you're atheist or not. And hell, being an atheist certainly hasn't stopped lots of Jews from embracing certain aspects of their Jewish identity: most of the founding Zionists who began the State of Israel were atheists, who were none the less proud of their Jewish identities. Regardless, the point is, according to all the traditional definitions of the Jewish people, you are a Jew. What you do with your life is, of course, your own business: nobody will come around and try to force you to interact with Jewish society, or try to make you practice Jewish religion, or to take any pride in your Jewish identity at all. But it's important that you make a distinction between the issue of Jewish identity as a whole and how that is constructed by the Jewish people and understood by the rest of the world in history, and your own feelings about your identity and your choice to reject it. The latter is entirely your business, and no one should ever say otherwise. The former is something that affects all of the rest of us; and there is enough controversy in the Jewish community right now with identity, given the shenanigans of the Reform movement, and the crisis of assimilation in modern society, that more vituperation-- to say nothing of misinformation-- is deeply counterproductive for the rest of us. I really hope you don't take offense at this: I like your posts very much, and you seem like an awesome person. And I don't want to be the guy who gets in your face over religion and cultural identity, I really don't. But, as someone who is a professional student of Judaism, I feel like it's really important for me to say these things. __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne) Last edited by levite; 08-20-2008 at 11:54 AM..

08-20-2008, 12:05 PM	#36 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	When asked, I say that both my parents were Jewish and I have a great deal of pride in my heritage. Period. It used to irk me when someone would ask me if I was "Spanish" or "Jewish". I don't view it as a race, but it's obvious that depending where you sit, it's going to look different. If someone wants to know if I'm a practicing Jew, I'll tell them what they want to know. If they want to choose a label for me, there are plenty of others that fit me quite well. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

08-20-2008, 12:17 PM	#39 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	There is no such thing as race. There are ethnicities and cultures. Jews are semitic I suppose but quite diverse. Very much so in fact. My time in Israel tells me it is near impossible to pick out "jews" by their phenotypical features. From pasty white Ashkenazis (the ones I'm familiar with having grown up in the northeast), to Ethiopians, to Asians, and the lovely bronze Mediterranean beauties, Israelis or "jews" run the gamut in terms of phenotype and "race". When it comes to religion, Jews are also varied in their belief. Whether Hasidic, Orthodox, liberal, reform or secular, even Jews themselves have a difficult time coming together. Besides the Arab/Muslim threat, this is one of the biggest issues facing Israel today. Hal, what's wrong with people asking you if you're Spanish or Mexican based on your last name? It's a fair and innocent question yes? And why are you offended by Jewish stereotypes but not other stereotypes? __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter