AgadorSpartacus

I'm curious to see where the members of TFP stand on various means of achieving pregnancy. There's obviously a wide range of reasons to need ART from a man/woman relationship with fertility issues, single women wishing to become mothers, gay and lesbian couples wishing to become parents, etc (is there an etc?). There's also a wide range within ART of the amount of technology used: insemination w/or w/out medication, IVF, PGD, surrogacy, donated gametes and many combinations of the above and I'm sure others that I haven't mentioned.

Speaking for myself, I'm married and have a husband that has idiopathic ooligospermia. Basically he has enough sperm for IVF, but not enough for an insemination. We tried IVF twice with no success before turning donor sperm insemination. The latter allowed us to fulfill our dream of making a family and we're about to embark on this journey again.

spindles

This is an area I find it funny. I have a strong belief that if you can't conceive naturally, then you shouldn't have children. Having said that, my wife had a "clean out" operation before we conceived as she had endometriosis. The discussions with the surgeon basically talked about the options after this if she did not get pregnant naturally and he was really pushing IVF. It is really here that I find my disconnect. I just can't seem to agree with having IVF treatment.

I'm not religious and I'm really not sure why I find this particular medical procedure wrong - I just do.

I think IVF is helping people have children when they are older, which I'm not sure is a good thing either.

I don't look down on people who do use it, but we decided we would be more likely to not have children at all or adopt if we couldn't conceive naturally (moot point now - 2 boys ages 4 and 2), rather than go through IVF.

__________________
who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

jorgelito

I agree with spindles. I too am against reproductive assistance.

I think there are too many kids available for adoption and that would be a great choice.

Caveat: I'm not a parent yet so my perspective is obviously skewed.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

jewels

I'm surprised to read that jorgelito and spindles are on the same page as me.

I'm not sure why I feel this way, but I do.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Halx

Please, can this humanitarian adoption crap. If a couple want a baby - their own baby, I'm all for helping them do it. A couple should be free to explore any options they have to get their own baby if they want to. I know personally that I want my kid to have my features and my wife's features. I mean hell, that's part of what brings people together. You're no less of a person if you want that.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

AgadorSpartacus

Tell that to all of the people who are on 3yr long waiting lists for domestic adoption or the 2yr process that it currently is for international adoption (laws have tightened dramatically for most international adoptions in the past 2yrs).


$30-40K and up for domestic or international adoption

$12-15K for one round of IVF and get to be pregnant

$700 for one round of donor insemination and get to be pregnant

For us it was a no brainer and I respect my husban immensely for being able to put his ego aside. He'd die for our son and they don't share a strand of DNA, but he got to see the miracle of my belly swell and watch him being born.

If you had ask me or my husband before we tried to get pregnant how far we'd go, I would have said maybe some Clomid and my husband would have told you that there's no way in hell he'd let me be pregnant with someone elses DNA. It's amazing how your perspective changes when faced with certain obstacles.

girldetective

I like science and medicine, and I like humans. Whether adoption or conception by means different than the norm, Im glad people have the opportunity to choose. I hope that those who give forethought and are planful to become a parent are also planful and thoughtful in their parenting.

__________________
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

mixedmedia

I disagree with the anti-IVF argument, as well. I'm not sure why it is that people who can't conceive naturally have to be the ones who take care of the unwanted babies of the world.

You care about it so much? Don't conceive naturally yourselves. Adopt. What difference does it make if you have the ability to easily conceive or not?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Vigilante

I think it's up to the people in question. Who am I to tell them what they can or cannot do?

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

snowy

This is pretty much how I feel about all of this. It's not for me to decide; it's for the couple/individual to decide what's best for them and their potential family.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

jorgelito

Hey you asked the question so I gave my opinion. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

mixedmedia

It's called a rebuttal, jorgelito. You know...DEBATE.

And I didn't take anything from Agador's response that implied she didn't like the fact that you answered.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

PonyPotato

Sometimes I think that I would adopt if I could not conceive a child on my own.. but then I think more about it and it's very important to me to go through pregnancy and childbirth with a child related to both me AND my partner, so ART is a possibility for me. Not sure if we'll need it.. we still have quite a few years before thinking about it seriously.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

jorgelito

Of course I know debate, but I took the tone differently than you interpreted. And I didn't realize this was a debate since she asked for opinions.

Understand that this is the nature of message boards. Things can get lost in the communication, subtleties are lost, nuances missed, interpretations skewed. We go back and forth and sort it out, no harm no foul.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

AgadorSpartacus

It isn't that I didn't like your answer, per say. Many people find ART not up their alley and do go straight to adoption. I was just explaining that adoption isn't as simple as many would think.

mixedmedia

Very well.

Although I am hard-pressed to understand how you took Agador's response as anything other than mild.

And as long as I've been on the planet, asking for an opinion has always been an invitation for debate.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

JustJess

For myself, I don't think I'd do it. My theory about life is that I'm okay with reproducing myself and my partner (i.e. two kids), but if I want more, I'd rather adopt. I'd even be up for adopting an older child at that point. And in terms of the situation in which I couldn't get pregnant, well, I think I would still adopt at that point. Maybe try a little IVF but if it didn't work, I'd be okay.

For everyone else? I'm in favor of whatever will make you happiest, and help you to be the best parent you can be to your kids. I've not dealt with this type of disappointment (not being able to get pregnant through regular means), and I won't judge others' choices. I do wish there were more homes for those kids, but shit. Like MM said, if I'm not adopting the whole world, why should someone else have to?

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

jorgelito

Yes of course,no problem, which is why I added the caveat at the end of my first post (hopefully that explains it). I personally feel adoption is a very difficult process, sometime necessarily so, others not. But in my opinion, I still feel adoption is a great option. It may not be for some but I would hope people would consider it.

It's quite simple really MM. I'm human Who knows, maybe I was distracted, not paying careful attention or maybe I just had bad gas. Regardless, I interpreted it the way I did. I looked at it again (after treating myself to some frozen yogurt) and my guess is probably the first sentence sent me down the wrong path. It happens. We evolve.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

ASU2003

I think it should be limited to one IVF child per couple. Just because there are too many people on this planet, but having a kid is impotant to a relationship.

And I don't like the idea of donor sperm unless it is not possible any other way. And even then there should be genetic testing and DNA quality requirements from the donors.

Reese

I think everyone should be sterilized at birth. Then when they get 25 and score above 110 on an IQ test should they be able to have the procedure reversed and allowed to conceive.. That's just wishful thinking though...

I'm not against IVF, hell I think people that actually go though the trouble of having a child usually end up being more responsible parents anyway.

I'm all for adoption though. I think the need to have your own child is a primal instinct that's manifested itself as a conscious desire. Maybe it's because I have shitty genes.

I'm naming my first kid Cher.. Not like the singer.. but like Chernobyl because they'll be the result of one big fucking accident.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

ngdawg

My kids are lab babies and I am extremely proud of them.
They were conceived after 10 years of trying, including 8 of those years under the care of reproductive specialists.
For those who say "adopt", we tried. And it's real easy to say anything when you aren't in the thick of the situation.(I find there are generally two types that are against fertility treatments-those who don't have kids and those who can get pregnant from toilet seats). I have two nephews adopted at birth and they are great young men; their parents were fortunate enough to have the $50,000 or so it cost to have their kids.
After 10 years, we went with donor sperm and a procedure called GIFT that is no longer used. My twins are now 16 and most here are sick of my bragging, to be sure.
Agador, welcome both to TFP and parenthood. Regardless of how dreams are achieved, everyone should do all they can to achieve them.
I only hope these naysayers never ever have to go thru the trials those of us who are infertile had to endure.

AgadorSpartacus

There really was no other way, well there was, we tried it, it failed.

Go to Sperm Banking with Fairfax Cryobank and see what kind of testing each donor goes through. I believe they only accept somewhere in the neighborhood of 3% of men who want to donate. Unfortunately, not all sperm banks are as persnikety, but Faifax is one of the three largest in the U.S.
-----Added 14/8/2008 at 09 : 31 : 40-----
I couldn't agree more.

Thanks for the welcome.

spindles

I'd like to make it clear, I'm personally against doing IVF myself, but I really couldn't care less if other people wish to do it.

__________________
who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

jewels

Lots of folks making assumptions here.

I've never been against IVF and although I believe adoption should be looked at as an option before couples spend hundreds of thousands of dollars at a mere possibility.

My guess at why I'm not overly thrilled with IVF?

I've been very close to a couple that went through this and personally seen the results of the agony of years of attempts for naught. Yes, I realize when it does happen, it's glorious. But when it doesn't, I don't think anything prepares the couple (person?) if it's just not going to happen for them.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Baraka_Guru

My main concern with IVF is whether there are underlying problems preventing pregnancy that may cause serious problems for the children. Isn't infertility sometimes a sign that you shouldn't have children? I don't know.

Then there are the complications (re: multiple births and the related complications). As long as those involved are well aware of the risks and weigh them carefully, I don't see why they shouldn't be given the opportunity.

When a couple wants a child that badly, I'm sure it's a good environment for one to be born into.

And then, of course, it also provides wonderful family opportunities to the gay community.

I guess my bottom line is to seriously consider the health issues and to be prepared to deal with them appropriately. This is a child (or two or three) we're talking about here.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

MSD

If someone is able to have a healthy pregnancy and is that dedicated to having their own children, who the hell am I to tell them they can't? I'd imagine that someone who goes through that effort is a lot more likely to be a loving, caring parent than average, so it's not like they're putting a burden on society.

As long as it's safe, I'm in favor of allowing just about any medical procedure (within reason.)

ngdawg

Without a doubt, probably the most informed parents regarding their own health and those of their kids are those that have those kids through treatments. We don't just walk into a clinic and ask for drugs and make a baby. Screening alone takes time; all possible reasons for the infertility are explored; we undergo monthly sonograms, monthly blood work, continuous monitoring and regular sitdowns with our specialists. By the time we're done, we know more about hormones, drug interactions, blood test meanings, how our bodies function, what every phase a fetus goes through, what needle is needed for what injection is being done and how much it all costs. We know our doctors' first names, their wives' first names, their home phone numbers and where they went to school. In short, we get educated. We have to be. And there isn't a more wanted child in the world than the one whose parents go through this litany of medical craziness to have it.

grumpyolddude

I come from a family that has never had any trouble making babies.... quite the opposite! Not making babies has been more of an issue for some of us!

I do believe that going through pregnancies, witnessing the development, the nurturing of the mother-to-be, all of it, brought QW and I even closer together than we were. Raising our children has cemented us together permanently. If that can happen to more couples through a little applied science, how could anyone object?

__________________
"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

Halifax

Six billion in the world, struggling to survive on dwindling resources, and still people will do anything it takes—spend tens of thousands of dollars, undergo countless procedures, etc.—just to have that all-important child who happens to carry their own DNA. Am I the only one who finds this the tiniest bit self-centered? I'm not saying these parents are malicious in their intent. Just that raising a child should not be the ultimate end and sum total of your existence.

__________________
Philosopher-in-Training

“The present writer…writes because for him it is a luxury which becomes the more agreeable and more evident, the fewer there are who buy and read what he writes.”
—Søren Kierkegaard

FuriousAvatar

I must agree with Halifax in this regard. While I myself would love to have a child (many years hence from now), I cannot in good conscience burden this planet with another human that will tax it yet further beyond its capabilities. I don't want to judge those who pursue these opportunities to have children because raising a child is a wondrous thing, but I cannot help but think about where our world is heading.

Daniel_

Tried IVF, didn't work. Can't afford to try it again, and it was painful and unpleasant for my wife, and deeply saddening for both of us afterwards.

What you convince yourself is unimportant is that 75% of people don't get a baby. But you pretend you'll be in the 25% that get one.

Sadly, we didn't buck the odds, and the pain is hard to express.

I wouldn't stop anyone going for IVF, but I'd want the companies that so happily take our thousands of pounds or dollars for their own large profits, to re-invest more into supporting the failed cases.

In this country (UK) there are not many kids for adoption, and almost no babies. If you adopt, you will most likely be looking at taking on a 5-12 year old kid who's been in care for some time, has a much higher than average chance of being abused, having special educational needs or disabilities.

The idea that there are thousands of women lining up to hand over "unwanted" new-borns vanished with the legalisation of abortion. Statistically, Juno doesn't happen, people.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

mixedmedia

I understand that there are many unwanted children in the world, I just don't understand why it's only people who can't procreate who should feel responsible for them. Fertile people can adopt just as easily as the infertile.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Daniel_

I've never thought of that. You're a very clever woman, MM.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Ayashe

Some couples feel they could not have the same bond with children that don't carry their DNA. Some mothers feel strongly the need to go through the motions of carrying a child and would feel cheated by having to do it another way. There is nothing wrong with either points of view in my mind, it is what fits you, your beliefs and that of your partner. It is an amazing process to carry a child, it allows us to prepare for parenthood in a real spiritual way. It is not something I can explain, I do not know that there are words to explain this at all to be honest. With adoption, you don't have the same moments of bonding to your growing child, no spouse resting his head on your growing tummy.

I don't believe that adoption is wrong in any way. I also do not believe that it is impossible to not feel love and closeness with a child not born out of your womb. I do believe the two can be vastly different and understand why couples would work to be able to share those experiences of pregnancy and bringing a life into the world together.

There are also concerns people have about how to handle the adoption/birth parent questions in later years. To tell your child, or not. Wondering how the child will react, wondering if he/she will feel a need to find their parent. Wondering if the bond you have built over the years will degrade upon them finding their birth parent. A lot to consider for a couple having difficulty creating their own family. I believe that what is right, is what they felt was the correct choice for them.

jorgelito

Actually, there are a ton of fertile couples that adopt. No one ever said it was the sole responsibility of infertile couples to adopt. Hope that clarifies things.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

MSD

Continuation of the species is, necessarily, one of the strongest natural instincts (and I would argue that it surpasses preservation of the self) and an evolutionary trait that has been selected for in the ancestry of everyone alive. I think it's unreasonable to expect people to want to adopt instead off producing their own children. It's human nature, plain and simple.

mixedmedia

Well, of course there are fertile couples who adopt. That's not what I am saying.

I am responding to comments which I find to be rather flippant. Those that purport that if you cannot conceive naturally you should adopt rather than pursue other means of conception. Even to go so far as to call it self-centered, a la Halifax.

When, to me, anyone who feels that way should be opting to adopt first, as well, regardless of their ability to procreate on their own. Maybe no one should have any babies at all until all the unwanted babies, and children, have homes of their own. Somehow, I don't think that idea would go over so well with lots of the fertile folks.

Besides, it's nobody else's damn business what people decide to do.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Nimetic

For myself I think it think there's a boundary beyond which I don't support assisted reproduction.

But I'm not clear where I put that line yet. I don't see anything wrong with IVF though.

ngdawg

There is nothing that any human does that is not "the tiniest bit self-centered". Nothing. Do we do altruistic things that makes us feel miserable? No, we do them to make others happy because it makes us happy.
For what it's worth, my kids are NOT their father's DNA as far as we know and he's just fine with that. We wanted a family, we tried and succeeded in having it.
Know why poor people don't adopt? They can't afford it.
If I want to be identified as a parent, who are you to say that can't be the sum total of my existence? (Not that it is, I'm more, but just saying).
I have adopted nephews. They're not "the adopted ones", they're my nephews. Period.

The most judgemental comments here thus far have been from those who have no kids and probably aren't even married or in serious relationships.
I said it before but it bears repeating: I hope no one who thinks we're somehow contributing to the ills of the world and sundry other negative views never has to go through what those of us who endured these failures went through.
I do hope that those who find themselves in the same despair succeed as well as I and others eventually have.
Daniel, I completely understand your pain and I am sorry you have to go through it. Trust me when I say, don't give up. When you want something badly enough, you find a way to get it.

Halifax

That's a rather cynical view of human nature. And that really is where this issue of whether it is right and proper is decided. I do not subscribe to a reductionist theory of evolutionary biology. We are the product of a scientific process, yes, but that process is itself a product, and therefore we have a purpose beyond the mere propagation of genes. Now, of course there isn't such as a thing as a 100% pure, totally selfless motive, but the admixture of selfishness with selflessness does not mean that selfishness is somehow the dominant and default factor.

I'm not saying that a person can't be. I'm saying that a person shouldn't. And again, that's not some dictate of my own or matter of personal preference on your part. It's inherent in the nature of being human. Nor am I putting parents in some special category. All I'm saying is that obsession with raising children, in making children one's sole object and consummate desire, is no better than taking money, power, or pleasure to be that sole object and desire. But of course, I am criticizing an extreme, so my criticism would doubtlessly need to be moderated to the same degree to which that extreme is modified in practice. Again, there are no pure or unmixed motives, in either direction.

__________________
Philosopher-in-Training

“The present writer…writes because for him it is a luxury which becomes the more agreeable and more evident, the fewer there are who buy and read what he writes.”
—Søren Kierkegaard