Two UVA students in semester at sea program expelled, put off boat in Greece - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Poppinjay · 08-11-2008, 08:32 AM

I usually don't like parents meddling in a collegiate decision when their precious cargo has been caught cheating, but this seems like overkill.

University of Virginia students accused of plagiarism, expelled from program | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

Quote:

Two students accused of plagiarism and violating the University of Virginia's honor code were expelled from a global studies program. They left their ship in Greece while their counterparts continued on the summer voyage.

One of the students, Ohio University senior Allison Routman, said she was shocked when a professor accused her of plagiarizing from an online synopsis of a movie.

"Had I thought I had done anything wrong, I, of course, would come forward," Routman said in a telephone interview Friday from her home outside Minneapolis. "I knew the consequences would not be good."

The University of Virginia has a single-sanction honor code, meaning students face expulsion after one violation. Students who participate in off-grounds programs that award academic credit from the school are also subject to the code.

Routman was part of Semester at Sea, a global studies program that offers shipboard coursework.

Routman said her class assignment was to watch a movie, then write a paper relating the film to shipboard or port experiences. She watched "Europa Europa" and consulted Wikipedia for the proper historic terminology. The professor alleged that she used three phrases identical to those on the online entry about the movie: "when the Germans attacked the Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa," ''German speaking minority outside of Germany" and "who had been released from a concentration camp."

"In my opinion, that was historical details, they weren't full sentences," said Routman, who added that there are only so many ways to say the same thing.

University officials disagreed, and the case went before a panel. Routman was found guilty of plagiarism, and her appeal was denied. Another student was convicted of plagiarism in a separate proceeding, and both had to disembark at a port outside Athens.

Routman noted that a day before the professor returned students' papers to the class, he told them that he suspected several of them committed plagiarism. If they came forward to make a "conscientious retraction," they wouldn't face honor-code punishment.

About five students did so, and received zeros on their papers, but Routman didn't come forward because she didn't think she did anything wrong.

"No one had ever defined paraphrasing for me," said Routman, who said she probably will have to extend her college career by a quarter because she won't get credit for Semester at Sea. "It was one of those things I'd kind of heard; I didn't think of what it was."

U.Va. officials said all Semester at Sea participants get detailed training sessions and handouts on honor requirements at the beginning of the voyage. University librarians also are aboard the ship to help answer questions about documentation, according to David Gies, who served as academic dean on last summer's voyage.

Gies doesn't know how many students have been ejected from Semester at Sea, but said there were no honor cases last summer. He said the "conscientious retraction" provision is standard to the honor process.

U.Va.'s honor code originated in 1842, and requires students to pledge not to cheat, lie or steal, or tolerate those who do. A student committee operates the adjudication process, including defending those accused. Students who are found guilty of violating the code are expelled from the university. Those who opt to leave school without requesting a trial are deemed to have admitted guilt.

Routman's father, Brent Routman, contacted university officials while his daughter was still on the ship to complain about the lack of due process for shipboard students, and raised concerns about a lack of a "neutral, nonvoting person to answer questions."

"If you're going to have a death-penalty sanction, then you've got to build in safeguards for kids that are lost in the shuffle," he said. "Theoretically speaking, give her an F, a zero. But to exclude her on the voyage, and expel her, that will be on her record."

He also said that his daughter's case should have fallen under the honor code's "triviality exception" — "if it's trivial, it's not supposed to be actionable. We're talking about a synopsis of a movie."

snowy · 08-11-2008, 09:02 AM

Whoa, she claims no one ever defined paraphrasing for her? I call bullshit. Almost every professor I know discussed plagiarism issues in depth at the start of a course, and the honest in academic work policy at my university was clearly printed on EVERY syllabus, as required by university policy. Furthermore, many of my profs emphasized that "when in doubt, cite." It's really too hard to have too many citations. Perhaps she didn't cite because she was ashamed that she used Wikipedia as an academic resource?

However, I don't agree with their procedure. Expulsion for one violation seems extreme.

Our policy reads:

Quote:

The administration of the classroom rests with the instructor. When evidence of academic dishonesty comes to the instructor’s attention, the instructor should (a) document the incident, (b) permit the accused student to provide an explanation, (c) advise the student of possible penalties, and (d) take action. The instructor may impose any academic penalty up to and including an "F" grade in the course after consulting with his or her department chair and informing the student of the action taken. Using the standard form, the instructor must report the incident and the action taken to his or her department chair, who, in turn, shall forward the report to his or her dean.

If the student is not enrolled in the college or school in which the course is offered, the dean of that college shall forward the report to the dean of the college or school in which the student is enrolled for possible disciplinary action.

Grade penalties imposed as a result of academic dishonesty may be appealed by the student in accordance with the procedures developed by the department and college or school in which the course is offered.

And from the Office of Student Conduct here, elaborating on the process:

Quote:

Q: What happens if I am reported for academic dishonesty?
A: Your instructor or your instructor's Department Chair will notify our office by sending us a report form. The form includes a summary of the incident and your explanation or reaction to the accusations. It also informs us of the instructor's action or recommendations for academic sanctions. Because it is a violation of student conduct regulations a confidential conduct record will be created and a written warning will be issued to you. Typically, first violations are remedied by your participating in a no-cost, on-campus Academic Integrity Seminar which is designed to support your academic and personal development. Second violations are referred to the Student Conduct Committee for resolution that could result in further developmental sanctions or suspension.

Q: What if I don't think I cheated, plagarized, assisted, or fabricated?
A: During the reporting process you will be given an opportunity to explain your situation to your instructor (or the department chair) and provide information you believe is important to be considered in the matter. If you disagree with the the determination of responsibility you may appeal the reported academic dishonesty.

I like our method better; it gives students ample opportunity to learn from the experience without totally humiliating them and/or robbing them of further educational experience.

Willravel · 08-11-2008, 09:23 AM

I can't really say if it's plagiarism unless I saw the context of her paper. I've written papers that likely look like source material before, but it hasn't been plagiarism but rather the wording is obvious. An example:

I'm writing a paper on the Third Reich for a European history class. Obviously some of this report will be done on the history of Adolph Hitler (Godwin!).

I write:

Quote:

Adolph Hitler was born in Adolf Hitler was born at the Gasthof zum Pommer, an inn in Braunau am Inn, Austria-Hungary, on 20 April 1889.

This is written without even consulting Wikipedia, from another source, but it's a very common and reasonable way to state where Hitler was born. If I happen to write a sentence on my own that's very similar or the same as a sentence from elsewhere, am I truly guilty of plagiarism?

MSD · 08-11-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I can't really say if it's plagiarism unless I saw the context of her paper. I've written papers that likely look like source material before, but it hasn't been plagiarism but rather the wording is obvious. An example:

I'm writing a paper on the Third Reich for a European history class. Obviously some of this report will be done on the history of Adolph Hitler (Godwin!).

I write:
This is written without even consulting Wikipedia, from another source, but it's a very common and reasonable way to state where Hitler was born. If I happen to write a sentence on my own that's very similar or the same as a sentence from elsewhere, am I truly guilty of plagiarism?

According to reasonable people, no. According to the professor I never took a class with who would fail people for something as simple as having a period instead of a comma in a citation, yes. The most important thing is that your writing style is consistent from paper to paper.

jorgelito · 08-11-2008, 10:47 AM

Cheating is cheating. It is also very rampant in our colleges and universities. Cheating lowers the standards and demeans us all. Why on earth would you consult wikipedia for a college paper? In any event, a good student can make their case if there is a question regarding their work. Having a good track record establishes precedence.

Bill O'Rights · 08-11-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Why on earth would you consult wikipedia for a college paper?

That was my first thought.

I'd have expelled her that, if not the questionable plagerism. (There are only so many ways to say the same thing.)

Willravel · 08-11-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

According to reasonable people, no. According to the professor I never took a class with who would fail people for something as simple as having a period instead of a comma in a citation, yes. The most important thing is that your writing style is consistent from paper to paper.

That's why I'd want to see the rest of her paper. If it was consistent with her writing, I wouldn't see it as reasonable grounds for expulsion.

JStrider · 08-11-2008, 12:31 PM

I think this response seems pretty extreme, but I dont really know all the details...

as far as using wikipedia... I think its a good way to gain some general knowledge on a topic. for papers I have used it as a way to find other citable sources. if you scroll down to the end of the hitler article there are 10 different books that are referenced, find that book and use it as a source...

snowy · 08-11-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JStrider

I think this response seems pretty extreme, but I dont really know all the details...

as far as using wikipedia... I think its a good way to gain some general knowledge on a topic. for papers I have used it as a way to find other citable sources. if you scroll down to the end of the hitler article there are 10 different books that are referenced, find that book and use it as a source...

I did this quite frequently in university, and many profs I talked to agreed that a good Wikipedia article, with good citations, can be a jumping off point for research--but it shouldn't be what you cite. It should be the starting point.

yellowmac · 08-11-2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

I did this quite frequently in university, and many profs I talked to agreed that a good Wikipedia article, with good citations, can be a jumping off point for research--but it shouldn't be what you cite. It should be the starting point.

Yeah, that about sums up the best use of Wikipedia for educational / paper research purposes.

Of course, let me tell you about the time I caught a student plagiarizing Wikipedia straight up, and claiming it as original work. I was a TA for a prof on campus, and she had me flag papers that got a grade that was atypical for the student who turned it in. In other words, I'd compare their paper grade with their grades on typical homeworks and midterms, and flag anyone that had a positive anomaly. So I get about 3, 4 hits. I google random sentences from each of the papers, and one of them was a straight word-for-word copy of a Wikipedia article.

She confessed to the crime, but if I remember correctly, the prof let her off with just a drop from the course. No failing grade, no mark on her record, nothing.

As for the story in the thread, by my judgment it sounds extreme, and I think they probably should be giving the student the benefit of the doubt in this case.

jorgelito · 08-11-2008, 05:18 PM

The problem is we don't enforce cheating standards enough. I have personally caught dozens of my fellow students cheating and plagiarizing and turned them in but to no avail. The professors and the administration are so scared of being sued. This tacit approval of cheating and dishonesty is a big disservice to the US colleges and universities.

As for Wikipedia, all my professors specifically and strictly forbade it and I agree with that policy. Are we that inept and lazy that we can no longer do research on our own?

I don't think it's extreme at all. She cheated. Maybe the expulsion of that student will serve as a warning and a wakeup call to the thousands of would-be cheaters who don't belong in college in the first place.

Willravel · 08-11-2008, 08:58 PM

MSD was right, it's important to get writing style as a context by which you judge the grammar syntax. If it matches, then it may be more difficult to establish that it was plagiarism.

Still, I could think of worse places than Greece to be dropped off.

abaya · 08-12-2008, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

The problem is we don't enforce cheating standards enough. I have personally caught dozens of my fellow students cheating and plagiarizing and turned them in but to no avail. The professors and the administration are so scared of being sued. This tacit approval of cheating and dishonesty is a big disservice to the US colleges and universities.

As for Wikipedia, all my professors specifically and strictly forbade it and I agree with that policy. Are we that inept and lazy that we can no longer do research on our own?

I don't think it's extreme at all. She cheated. Maybe the expulsion of that student will serve as a warning and a wakeup call to the thousands of would-be cheaters who don't belong in college in the first place.

Agreed on every point. If you ask me, the behavior of the girl AND her father are both reprehensible, and they both should have known better. If that had been my daughter, I would have fully supported the actions of the school, and made sure that she understood that she was responsible for all of her actions. Oooh, she has to stay in school for another quarter. Big freakin' deal.

During my undergrad, a good friend of mine was permanently suspended for plagiarizing on one assignment. He was gone virtually overnight. There was zero tolerance for that, and frankly, I thought the enforcement was excellent (even if I felt bad for my friend--it was still his fault).

Poppinjay · 08-12-2008, 03:28 AM

I think English majors are taught proper usage, but there was a story that came out just prior to this that claimed that other students are not taught proper citation and usage in these days of online research.

At any rate, the three phrases she used would have been considered "common usage" by my school. There were no words that were groundbreaking research in any way.

The difference would be, "Poppinjay, born in 1922, and a user of laudnum at theatrical events says there were no words that were groundbreaking research in any way" would be plagarism. The prior would not. In other words, there's parsing and there's plagarism.

abaya · 08-12-2008, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

I think English majors are taught proper usage, but there was a story that came out just prior to this that claimed that other students are not taught proper citation and usage in these days of online research.

I was an English major, but I was taught proper usage in high school, maybe even junior high. And if you ask me, college-bound students should know this crap, especially at a reputable place like U of Virgina. I really can't manage to think of any excuses for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

There were no words that were groundbreaking research in any way.

Plagiarism has nothing to do with "groundbreaking research." It has to do with using words that were written by someone else, and claiming them to be your own. I have no tolerance for this kind of behavior, especially at the university level.

Poppinjay · 08-12-2008, 04:23 AM

Yes, students should be taught proper usage, but they aren't. When I was a junior English major in college, we were required to tutor incoming Freshman on basics of writing research papers. It's part of the "Everybody Gets An A For Effort" problem.

At any rate, the words she used weren't even complete sentences. They weren't unique or special in any way. How few words in a row does it have to be to not be plagarism?

filtherton · 08-12-2008, 04:25 AM

willravel, you're expelled. Pack up your shit. You're getting off in Athens. No, I mean you have to leave the ship in Athens.

Ourcrazymodern? · 08-12-2008, 06:03 AM

Freely admitting stupidity:
If "looking out the window is an act of war" -(no idea for attribution)- thinking about anything you ever heard or read and spouting it elsewhere must resemble these "charges".

Every haiku
has already been written
is false, I believe.

The professor is the one with the problem.

abaya · 08-12-2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

So then by your definition abaya this is plagiarism.

Yes, clearly, Cyn. Is there some question about that?

shakran · 08-12-2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

So then by your definition abaya this is plagiarism.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...s-towards.html

This was posted as original words by willravel in post #9.

And so it would be if Will were publishing this paper or turning it in for a grade. Something tells me he's not seeking academic notoriety with TFP forum posts, however

abaya · 08-12-2008, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

And so it would be if Will were publishing this paper or turning it in for a grade. Something tells me he's not seeking academic notoriety with TFP forum posts, however

Yeah, this is not TFP University here.

But certainly, the effect of (caught) plagiarism on one's online reputation is no less trivial than what happened to those girls' official records. You might not get kicked out of school for it around here, but it's not a terribly flattering behavior... I think we can all agree on that.

Poppinjay · 08-12-2008, 07:39 AM

The effect of (catched) plagiarism on one's online reputation is no less trivial than what happened to those girls' official records. You might not get kicked out of school for it around here, but it's not a terribly flattering behavior. I think we can all agree on that!

Rekna · 08-12-2008, 07:44 AM

Here is a related case:

Wikipedia text:

Quote:

After the Russian Revolution of 1917, Georgia had a brief period of independence as a Democratic Republic (1918-1921), which was terminated by the Red Army invasion of Georgia. Georgia became part of the Soviet Union in 1922 and regained its independence in 1991. Early post-Soviet years was marked by a civil unrest and economic crisis.

Plagiarized text?

Quote:

After a brief period of independence following the Russian revolution, the Red Army forced Georgia to join the Soviet Union in 1922. As the Soviet Union crumbled at the end of the Cold War, Georgia regained its independence in 1991, but its early years were marked by instability, corruption, and economic crises.

This seems pretty clearly paraphrasing and plagiarism to me. What do you all think?

For those who want to know where it is from see the spoiler:

Spoiler:
Mc'Cain's recent speech on foreign policy.

Of course the true crime in all of this is that people are using wikipedia as a source!

et:la · 08-29-2010, 07:19 PM

lol... wiki is simply adorable!
... an annotated index with lots of images in the the public domain.
...also
...the scenario on board brings Milgram's experiment to mind
...and
...ahh...the power... to be judge and jury
...finally...
...why fight it? ...include plagiarism in the system...
...a "0" credit for plagiarism...
...at least someone did some research...lol

Seaver · 08-29-2010, 11:58 PM

Little known fact: Martin Luther King is occasionally incorrectly referred to as "Doctor M.L.K."

He was permanently banned from the title as he was found plagiarizing his thesis.

Plan9 · 08-30-2010, 12:06 AM

It's 0400 EST. So I made the OP a picture.

levite · 08-30-2010, 02:21 AM

Maybe I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, but I think the UVA reaction was insane overkill.

I am a teacher, and no friend to cheaters or plagiarists among my students. And I have caught students doing so, and confronted them accordingly.

But at least in my experience as a student (college, grad school, rabbinical school), plagiarism is confined to text or ideas that are distinctive, or represent more than a few consecutive words in a phrase. Leaving aside for a moment the depressingly frequent use of wikipedia as a source, the three phrases for which this girl was expelled (not one of which is even a complete sentence) represent no style, content, or phrasing unique or distinctive to one author: they are mere factual notations, that could just as easily have been cribbed from the Encyclopedia Britannica articles on those events, or from any decent professor's lectures on the subjects.

If a student hands me an essay on Marie Curie, and it contains the short sentence, "Radium, atomic number 88, is an alkaline earth metal which is intensely radioactive;" I can't possibly see charging that student with plagiarism even if every third science textbook in America has the exact same sentence. Whereas, if the essay contained the sentence, "Radium, atomic number 88, was discovered by Marie and Pierre Curie, the nineteenth-century scientific couple brought together-- ironically-- by a mutual interest in magnetism; but unfortunately, the alkaline earth metal proved intensely radioactive;" I would charge plagiarism. This latter sentence, while conveying the same information, does so in a very distinctive style, it appends additional content, and is cast in a very specific mode of phrasing. Although even in the first case, if the student handed me an essay with not one sentence, but a small paragraph of sentences similarly plain, dry, and factual, all drawn from a science textbook, I might well charge plagiarism also.

But, really, we're at a point where a girl can be expelled from college for borrowing an isolated clause of a sentence, conveying nothing but dry historical fact, for part of an assignment to summarize and synthesize a movie? How is that not just craziness? It's like firing a productive, long-term employee because they accidentally walked home with a mostly-worn-down pencil from work tucked in their pocket. For wholesale stealing of office supplies-- sure, fire them. But for a pencil? And not even a whole one?

I'm sorry, but in my book, judgment without tolerance is just petty tyranny.

ASU2003 · 08-30-2010, 04:47 AM

At least they didn't make her walk the plank...

The_Jazz · 08-30-2010, 04:54 AM

You know, I really love it when someone signs up to ressurect a dead thread with something that's essentially pure nonsense.

No really, I do love it. I get to go back and see some of the old faces and pretend, for just a second, that they're still around.

Plan9 · 08-30-2010, 05:11 AM

I know. I nearly felt threatened by Abaya until I checked the dates.

Shauk · 08-30-2010, 10:28 AM

You guys have a strict definition of dead if 2 weeks without a post means dead.

The_Jazz · 08-30-2010, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

You guys have a strict definition of dead if 2 weeks without a post means dead.

Dear Shauk:

Welcome to 2010.

Sincerely,

Those of us who no longer live in 2008

roachboy · 08-30-2010, 10:44 AM

plagiarism is necessary. progress implies it.

Seaver · 08-30-2010, 11:18 AM

Wow didn't realize it was an old thread.

Anyways, using other people's ideas is not plagiarism. It's only when proper documentation of references is ignored does it implicitly suggest it's an idea or fact discovered directly by the author.

It's WAY too easy to plagiarize today, and measures to enforce it must be kept stringent.

Baraka_Guru · 08-30-2010, 11:28 AM

One of my English professors had us blog about what we read because he felt the essay was dead in the Internet Age.

Ourcrazymodern? · 08-30-2010, 11:41 AM

I'm guessing (professor) was more interested in what you think than in whose words you use to express it.

roachboy · 08-30-2010, 11:54 AM

i never viewed plagiarism as a moral issue. i view it as a social convention: if you're writing academic stuff, be it low-wattage undergraduate stuff or advanced research pieces, there are certain rules. one set of rules involves citation. there's alot of arguments for them, most of which i think are stupid, frankly. the one i don't think stupid has to do with intellectual transparency--here's the tradition with respect to which this project operates, here are the reference points.

there's a real problem with the notion of "originality" in a critical essay. but that's the nature of the form--if there has to be an Authority that stands between a writer/researcher and what is actually of interest, then what much of the critique amounts to is a abstracting and rearranging elements pulled from the Authority. so nothing is "original" really. except the arrangement and suturing. but that seems to me good plagiarism, a recycling and a displacement rather than a copying---so an appropriation that makes the original do something other.

but this was a couple years ago about some hysterical over-reaction on the part of god knows who at uva to some rule breach. obviously these folk thought the plagiarism involves some Ethical Problem. i think that's ridiculous. at the same time, the student(s) obviously had talked to some sort of counsel and were outlining the only plausible defense against a plagiarism charge, which is that s/he/they hadn't understood the rules.

but better to know the rules exactly and violate them deliberately and some some conceptual purpose.

if i was going to go after a student for plagiarism, it'd be more about the intellectual laziness than the copying. i've had to do that before. but you really need to think about launching a formal procedure because you can get a student thrown out of school for it. but i digress.

08-11-2008, 10:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Cheating is cheating. It is also very rampant in our colleges and universities. Cheating lowers the standards and demeans us all. Why on earth would you consult wikipedia for a college paper? In any event, a good student can make their case if there is a question regarding their work. Having a good track record establishes precedence. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

08-11-2008, 12:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	I think this response seems pretty extreme, but I dont really know all the details... as far as using wikipedia... I think its a good way to gain some general knowledge on a topic. for papers I have used it as a way to find other citable sources. if you scroll down to the end of the hitler article there are 10 different books that are referenced, find that book and use it as a source... __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

08-11-2008, 05:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	The problem is we don't enforce cheating standards enough. I have personally caught dozens of my fellow students cheating and plagiarizing and turned them in but to no avail. The professors and the administration are so scared of being sued. This tacit approval of cheating and dishonesty is a big disservice to the US colleges and universities. As for Wikipedia, all my professors specifically and strictly forbade it and I agree with that policy. Are we that inept and lazy that we can no longer do research on our own? I don't think it's extreme at all. She cheated. Maybe the expulsion of that student will serve as a warning and a wakeup call to the thousands of would-be cheaters who don't belong in college in the first place. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

08-12-2008, 03:28 AM	#14 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I think English majors are taught proper usage, but there was a story that came out just prior to this that claimed that other students are not taught proper citation and usage in these days of online research. At any rate, the three phrases she used would have been considered "common usage" by my school. There were no words that were groundbreaking research in any way. The difference would be, "Poppinjay, born in 1922, and a user of laudnum at theatrical events says there were no words that were groundbreaking research in any way" would be plagarism. The prior would not. In other words, there's parsing and there's plagarism. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

08-12-2008, 04:23 AM	#16 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Yes, students should be taught proper usage, but they aren't. When I was a junior English major in college, we were required to tutor incoming Freshman on basics of writing research papers. It's part of the "Everybody Gets An A For Effort" problem. At any rate, the words she used weren't even complete sentences. They weren't unique or special in any way. How few words in a row does it have to be to not be plagarism? __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet Last edited by Poppinjay; 08-12-2008 at 04:26 AM..

08-11-2008, 08:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	MSD was right, it's important to get writing style as a context by which you judge the grammar syntax. If it matches, then it may be more difficult to establish that it was plagiarism. Still, I could think of worse places than Greece to be dropped off.

08-12-2008, 04:25 AM	#17 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	willravel, you're expelled. Pack up your shit. You're getting off in Athens. No, I mean you have to leave the ship in Athens.

08-12-2008, 06:03 AM	#18 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Freely admitting stupidity: If "looking out the window is an act of war" -(no idea for attribution)- thinking about anything you ever heard or read and spouting it elsewhere must resemble these "charges". Every haiku has already been written is false, I believe. The professor is the one with the problem.

08-12-2008, 07:39 AM	#22 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	The effect of (catched) plagiarism on one's online reputation is no less trivial than what happened to those girls' official records. You might not get kicked out of school for it around here, but it's not a terribly flattering behavior. I think we can all agree on that! __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

08-29-2010, 07:19 PM	#24 (permalink)
et:la Upright	lol... wiki is simply adorable! ... an annotated index with lots of images in the the public domain. ...also ...the scenario on board brings Milgram's experiment to mind ...and ...ahh...the power... to be judge and jury ...finally... ...why fight it? ...include plagiarism in the system... ...a "0" credit for plagiarism... ...at least someone did some research...lol

08-29-2010, 11:58 PM	#25 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Little known fact: Martin Luther King is occasionally incorrectly referred to as "Doctor M.L.K." He was permanently banned from the title as he was found plagiarizing his thesis. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

08-30-2010, 12:06 AM	#26 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	It's 0400 EST. So I made the OP a picture. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-30-2010, 02:21 AM	#27 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	Maybe I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, but I think the UVA reaction was insane overkill. I am a teacher, and no friend to cheaters or plagiarists among my students. And I have caught students doing so, and confronted them accordingly. But at least in my experience as a student (college, grad school, rabbinical school), plagiarism is confined to text or ideas that are distinctive, or represent more than a few consecutive words in a phrase. Leaving aside for a moment the depressingly frequent use of wikipedia as a source, the three phrases for which this girl was expelled (not one of which is even a complete sentence) represent no style, content, or phrasing unique or distinctive to one author: they are mere factual notations, that could just as easily have been cribbed from the Encyclopedia Britannica articles on those events, or from any decent professor's lectures on the subjects. If a student hands me an essay on Marie Curie, and it contains the short sentence, "Radium, atomic number 88, is an alkaline earth metal which is intensely radioactive;" I can't possibly see charging that student with plagiarism even if every third science textbook in America has the exact same sentence. Whereas, if the essay contained the sentence, "Radium, atomic number 88, was discovered by Marie and Pierre Curie, the nineteenth-century scientific couple brought together-- ironically-- by a mutual interest in magnetism; but unfortunately, the alkaline earth metal proved intensely radioactive;" I would charge plagiarism. This latter sentence, while conveying the same information, does so in a very distinctive style, it appends additional content, and is cast in a very specific mode of phrasing. Although even in the first case, if the student handed me an essay with not one sentence, but a small paragraph of sentences similarly plain, dry, and factual, all drawn from a science textbook, I might well charge plagiarism also. But, really, we're at a point where a girl can be expelled from college for borrowing an isolated clause of a sentence, conveying nothing but dry historical fact, for part of an assignment to summarize and synthesize a movie? How is that not just craziness? It's like firing a productive, long-term employee because they accidentally walked home with a mostly-worn-down pencil from work tucked in their pocket. For wholesale stealing of office supplies-- sure, fire them. But for a pencil? And not even a whole one? I'm sorry, but in my book, judgment without tolerance is just petty tyranny. __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

08-30-2010, 04:47 AM	#28 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	At least they didn't make her walk the plank...

08-30-2010, 04:54 AM	#29 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	You know, I really love it when someone signs up to ressurect a dead thread with something that's essentially pure nonsense. No really, I do love it. I get to go back and see some of the old faces and pretend, for just a second, that they're still around. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-30-2010, 05:11 AM	#30 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I know. I nearly felt threatened by Abaya until I checked the dates. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-30-2010, 10:28 AM	#31 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	You guys have a strict definition of dead if 2 weeks without a post means dead.

08-30-2010, 10:44 AM	#33 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	plagiarism is necessary. progress implies it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-30-2010, 11:18 AM	#34 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Wow didn't realize it was an old thread. Anyways, using other people's ideas is not plagiarism. It's only when proper documentation of references is ignored does it implicitly suggest it's an idea or fact discovered directly by the author. It's WAY too easy to plagiarize today, and measures to enforce it must be kept stringent. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

08-30-2010, 11:28 AM	#35 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	One of my English professors had us blog about what we read because he felt the essay was dead in the Internet Age. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-30-2010, 11:41 AM	#36 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I'm guessing (professor) was more interested in what you think than in whose words you use to express it. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

08-30-2010, 11:54 AM	#37 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i never viewed plagiarism as a moral issue. i view it as a social convention: if you're writing academic stuff, be it low-wattage undergraduate stuff or advanced research pieces, there are certain rules. one set of rules involves citation. there's alot of arguments for them, most of which i think are stupid, frankly. the one i don't think stupid has to do with intellectual transparency--here's the tradition with respect to which this project operates, here are the reference points. there's a real problem with the notion of "originality" in a critical essay. but that's the nature of the form--if there has to be an Authority that stands between a writer/researcher and what is actually of interest, then what much of the critique amounts to is a abstracting and rearranging elements pulled from the Authority. so nothing is "original" really. except the arrangement and suturing. but that seems to me good plagiarism, a recycling and a displacement rather than a copying---so an appropriation that makes the original do something other. but this was a couple years ago about some hysterical over-reaction on the part of god knows who at uva to some rule breach. obviously these folk thought the plagiarism involves some Ethical Problem. i think that's ridiculous. at the same time, the student(s) obviously had talked to some sort of counsel and were outlining the only plausible defense against a plagiarism charge, which is that s/he/they hadn't understood the rules. but better to know the rules exactly and violate them deliberately and some some conceptual purpose. if i was going to go after a student for plagiarism, it'd be more about the intellectual laziness than the copying. i've had to do that before. but you really need to think about launching a formal procedure because you can get a student thrown out of school for it. but i digress. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-30-2010 at 11:56 AM..