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jorgelito 08-08-2008 12:53 PM

Georgia On My Mind
 
What the hell? War between Russia and Georgia. Things are pretty intense and have escalated rapidly. From what I can tell:

Russia supports a rebel independence breakaway group in Georgia, South Ossetia. The Georgians sent in troops and the Russians moved in to back the rebels. Hundreds of dead civilians.

This could get bad.

roachboy 08-08-2008 01:33 PM

Russia battles Georgia over breakaway region of South Ossetia | World news | guardian.co.uk

this page from the guardian has some video and audio clips.

this with a bit more context:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...th-ossetia.htm

still gathering information, but it does appear as though, in the parlance of our times, the shit may hit the fan here quickly, if it hasn't already.

jorgelito 08-08-2008 02:47 PM

It looks like the Georgians were the aggressors although none of the three parties are guiltless. This should make the Olympics more interesting.

I guess this means people will be boycotting Russia and Georgia now.

ktspktsp 08-08-2008 03:00 PM

It's certainly a complicated situation, and I don't know enough about it.

However, I don't see how the Georgians think they can outplay the Russians in a show of force...

Spartanx9 08-08-2008 03:56 PM

oh fun.. war.. that aint good.

Halifax 08-08-2008 05:50 PM

To be honest, I hope the US stays out of it. We've been digging in Russia's backyard for too long. Eastern Europe and the Caucasus belong to Russia's sphere of influence. Hopefully they can settle this quickly and with a minimum of Chechnya-like bloodshed.

kurty[B] 08-08-2008 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halifax (Post 2503632)
To be honest, I hope the US stays out of it. We've been digging in Russia's backyard for too long. Eastern Europe and the Caucasus belong to Russia's sphere of influence. Hopefully they can settle this quickly and with a minimum of Chechnya-like bloodshed.


Agreed, I hope we don't jump any guns. Right now, it sounds like Georgians are requesting American flights for their 2000 soldiers in Iraq to return home to help fight on their homeland. I'm not sure what's happening there.

I'll be following this as more information becomes available.

snowy 08-08-2008 06:43 PM

The NYTimes has an article covering the conflict:

Quote:

Russia and Georgia Clash Over Separatist Region   click to show 

Russia and Georgia Clash Over Separatist Region - NYTimes.com

South Ossetia News - Breaking World South Ossetia News - The New York Times

It's certainly worrying, and I wonder how it will all play out.

girldetective 08-08-2008 06:47 PM

Quote:

ktspktsp said : However, I don't see how the Georgians think they can outplay the Russians in a show of force...
They have allies, including the US.

Seaver 08-08-2008 06:48 PM

If I recall correctly Georgia supports the Chechnyans (sp?) in their conflict because it hurts Russia. It's only right Russia kicks them in the balls in turn.

roachboy 08-09-2008 06:49 AM

apparently south ossetia declared independence and russia was the only other country to recognize it. georgia sees it as a breakway state, so has been engaged in some low-level conflict with a "seperatist group"---which i put in quotes because in this context it's hard tp know what exactly that'd refer to. because states and ethnicities are aligned in the post-stalinist context, the fact that ossetia is majority not georgian seems at the heart of it---from what i've seen (you have too, if you've read about this) most ossetians have russian passports. georgia sent its military into south ossetia on thursday, the russians yesterday. things have apparently grown very ugly very fast.

so there were two opening ceremonies yesterday.

most international organizations are shouting: STOP THAT.

at least 1500 people are dead.


addendum:
apparently georgia applied for nato membership.
so the subtext is clearer...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...eorgia.russia3

jorgelito 08-09-2008 10:59 AM

In my opinion, it looks like the Russians are at fault for invading the Georgians. I know they were supporting/liberating the Separatists but it seems like they were just looking for any excuse to attack the Georgians.

roachboy 08-09-2008 11:04 AM

i've been seeing articles that claim the idea for the russians is to depose the government of georgia itself. if that turns out to be the case, this is about nato, not south ossetia.

dlish 08-09-2008 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver (Post 2503657)
If I recall correctly Georgia supports the Chechnyans (sp?) in their conflict because it hurts Russia. It's only right Russia kicks them in the balls in turn.

FYI people of Chechnya are referred to as Chechens.

i can see the loose ties between the caucasian populations become increasingly tight, and predict more bloodshed with the unification of different nations against a common enemy.

russia obviously didnt learn from the 2 Chechen wars.

Quote:

"It is just as hard to subjugate the Chechens and other peoples of this region, as to level the Caucasian mountains..."

- Russian Gen. Mikhail Orlov, 1820

roachboy 08-10-2008 11:33 AM

apparently, the russians aren't bothering with this pesky border business are are heading straight into georgia.
perhaps someone gave the military faulty maps.
or perhaps this is a bit of "regime change" action.

and it's not like the americans can or will say anything about it.
not really.

Quote:

August 11, 2008
Russian Ground Forces Assault Vital Georgian City
By ANNE BARNARD

This article was reported by Andrew E. Kramer, Anne Barnard and C. J. Chivers, and written by Ms. Barnard.

TBILISI, Georgia — Russian tanks and troops moved through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advanced on the city of Gori in central Georgia on Sunday night, for the first time directly assaulting a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.

Georgian tanks were dug into positions outside Gori and planning to defend the city, said Shota Utiashvili, an official in Georgia’s interior ministry. He said the city of Gori was coming under artillery and tank fire. There was no immediate comment from Russia.

A senior Western official said earlier Sunday that Russian forces were seen moving over the mountains from South Ossetia into Georgian territory near a village called Racha.

A column of Russian forces was also seeking Sunday night to enter Georgian territory from Abkhazia, another separatist enclave to the west, and Abkhaz fighters were massed at the boundary line, an Abkhaz official said in an interview.

The advance appeared to answer the question on which the conflict had been pivoting: Would Russia simply occupy the two separatist territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, or would it push into Georgia, raising the possibility of a full-scale invasion?

Gori, about a 45-minute drive south from the capital of South Ossetia, Tskinvali, sits in a valley that is the main route connecting the east and west halves of Georgia.

Mr. Utiashvili said the Russians were “trying to cut the country in half.” He said that if they tried to occupy Georgia, “there will probably be guerilla warfare all over the country.”

In Washington, American officials reacted with deepening alarm to Russia’s military activities on Sunday. Georgian troops had tried to disengage, but the Russians had not allowed them.

“The Georgians told them, ‘We’re done. Let us withdraw,” one American military official said. “But the Russians are not letting them withdraw. They are pursuing them, and people are seeing this.”

The official said that it appeared that the Kremlin’s objectives, at a minimum, had extended beyond securing the enclaves and now included the destruction of the Georgian armed forces, with an aim of intensifying the domestic pressure on Saakashvili.

“The Russians have gained all of their military objectives,” the American official said. “This is not about military objectives. This is about a political objective — removing a thorn in their side.”

Russia had also doubled the number of its troops in Abkhazia to about 6,000, and Russian warships from the Black Sea fleet were off the territory’s coast. A column of Russian tanks was negotiating with Georgian officials to enter the Georgian city of Zugdidi, just south of Abkhazia, the Abkhaz official said.

Russia also bombed the Tblisi international airport shortly before Bernard Kouchner was due to arrive to mediate on behalf of the European Union. Only light damage was reported.

The senior State Department official said Sunday that the Bush administration would soon offer a United Nations Security Council resolution condemning Russian military action. Russia, a permanent member of the Council, would be sure to veto any such resolution, but the Bush administration is hoping the action could still apply more public pressure on Moscow.

“We will offer today a Security Council resolution that makes clear the international community’s condemnation of the military assault on the democratically elected government of Georgia,” said the official, Richard Grenell, the spokesman for the United States Mission to the United Nations. He said that the United States resolution will focus on Russia’s actions, will not hold Georgia equally responsible, “and will not be wishy-washy.”

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice worked through the night Saturday with other Bush administration officials on the resolution; American diplomats said that they did not want an actual Security Council vote on the resolution until Tuesday or so, the better to draw out the debate and publicly shame the Russian government. While the resolution will carry no punitive weight, the hope is that it could create more pressure for a cease-fire.

Meanwhile, Georgian and Western diplomatic officials said that Georgia had offered a cease-fire proposal to Russia, though Russian officials did not acknowledge receiving such an offer.

A senior American official said that the United States had conveyed the details of a cease-fire proposal by President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia to Russia’s acting ambassador in Washington late Saturday night, and that there briefly were indications that the Kremlin wanted to talk directly with the Georgian president.

"At midnight last night we got from the Russians that they would welcome a call from Saakashvili," the official said.

But the day passed, and through Sunday night in Georgia, the Kremlin had not taken Mr. Saakashvili’s call and negotiations had not proceeded, an advisor to Georgia’s president said.

"He has asked to talk with Putin, and he has asked to talk to Medvedev," he said, of Saakashvili. "But they have refused."

The American official also said that Georgia had managed on Sunday to provide its cease-fire proposals to Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, but there was no reply.

edit--later:

here's another set of factoids which helps put at least some other aspect of this into perspective:


Quote:

ARMED FORCES COMPARED
GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95
RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552908.stm#map

jorgelito 08-10-2008 12:20 PM

The Georgian's aren't innocent either. The real victims are the thousands of civilians massacred. Funny how there isn't much outrage over this.

Anyways, I thought this was touching.

Quote:

Olympic shooters hug as their countries do battle

BEIJING, China (CNN) -- Sharpshooters from Russia and Georgia embraced Sunday after earning medals for their countries, which have been teetering on the brink of war since the Beijing Summer Olympics kicked off last week.
Russia's Natalia Paderina, left, and Georgia's Nino Salukvadze wave during a medal ceremony Sunday.

Russia's Natalia Paderina, left, and Georgia's Nino Salukvadze wave during a medal ceremony Sunday.

Russia's Natalia Paderina and Georgia's Nino Salukvadze hugged after winning Olympic silver and bronze medals, respectively, in the women's 10-meter air pistol competition.

The rivals kissed each other on the cheek after standing on the medal podium with China's Guo Wenjun, who won the gold medal in the event.

Waving flower bouquets high, the women smiled broadly at the audience.

"If the world were to draw any lessons from what I did, there would never be any wars," Salukvadze, 39, said afterward, according to media reports. The reports described the two as friends.

Georgia said it launched an operation in South Ossetia on Thursday after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. Russia, whose forces entered the republic Friday, accuses Georgia of plotting to wipe out Ossetians loyal to Russia. Georgia says Russia merely wants control of an oil pipeline.

Before Sunday, Paderina and Salukvadze had competed against each other several times, including at the 2004 Athens Summer Olympics; the 2005 European Championships in Tallinn, Estonia; the 2006 World Championships in Zagreb, Croatia; and the 2008 European Championships in Winterthur, Switzerland.

Salukvadze's bronze medal marked the first for her country in these Games.

She won a silver medal in the same event two decades ago at the Olympics in Seoul, South Korea, where she also took home a gold for the 25-meter pistol competition. Salukvadze was a member of the then-Soviet Union's 1988 Olympic shooting team.

Sunday's silver medal was first in an Olympics for Paderina, 32.

Despite reports that the Georgia Olympic delegation might return home, team spokesman Giorgi Tchanishvili said Sunday the athletes would stay and compete, according to The Associated Press.

Tchanishvili said that the competitors were ready to leave China if it would help the situation back home, but that Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili sent a message saying the athletes should remain at the Games, AP reported

UKking 08-10-2008 01:01 PM

Photo Gallery: Horror War in the Caucuses

jorgelito 08-10-2008 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKking (Post 2504530)

Thanks for the post; it's good to have some images.

It looks like this was part of some grand strategy by the Russians for land grab and posturing. Also a warning to Ukraine. The Russians seem really aggressive and bent on finishing the task.

At this rate, things could escalate and spiral out of control. Unfortunately, I don't see the US and definitely not the UN stepping in to help.

roachboy 08-11-2008 03:08 AM

if you read the morning's papers you can almost hear the voice of the government of georgia asking: "where's nato?"

george w bush is watching the olympics, taking advantage of being lame-duck; cheney has been doing what cheney does, which is to threaten Consequences, except without being able to specify what they are. in the un, there are problems of language in the security council and another which has to do, as was the case with iraq, with military action regardless of justification carried out by a permanent member state. with this, the problem of structure is made self-evident again--the security council is set up to enable the permanent members total impunity while preserving the illusion of diplomatic engagement. meanwhile, it is impossible to feel much of any sympathy with georgia, except maybe in a david and goliath kinda way, because they decided to move against south ossetia.

meanwhile, again, lots of civilians die.

the olympics continue.
everything is normal.

UKking 08-11-2008 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito (Post 2504674)
Thanks for the post; it's good to have some images.

It looks like this was part of some grand strategy by the Russians for land grab and posturing. Also a warning to Ukraine. The Russians seem really aggressive and bent on finishing the task.

At this rate, things could escalate and spiral out of control. Unfortunately, I don't see the US and definitely not the UN stepping in to help.

I'm sure the Russians see it as quite in-control. And I think you're absolutely right on the Ukraine bit, and that the US probably wont intervene. We can't intervene. All we can do is bark at them, and I'm positive they're absolutely prepared to deal with all our noise throughout however far they wish to escalate their expansion. The UN might be able to affect something... Maybe.... Either way, the US's unilateral days are (thankfully) over.

...I hope.

dksuddeth 08-11-2008 01:56 PM

sometimes I think we need to tap Tom Clancy for our foreign policy advisor.

Ghost Recon video game

Ghost Recon begins in April 16, 2008, with civil unrest in Russia. Ultra-nationalists have seized power in Moscow, with plans to rebuild the Iron Curtain. Their first step is clandestine support of rebel factions in Georgia and the Baltic States. This storyline foreshadows the 2008 South Ossetia War. This is where the Ghosts come in: to silence the rebellion. Armed with some of the most advanced weaponry in the world, the soldiers of the Ghost Recon force are covertly inserted into Eastern Europe and given specific missions to curtail the rebel actions and overthrow their benefactors.

Daval 08-11-2008 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito (Post 2504674)
Thanks for the post; it's good to have some images.

It looks like this was part of some grand strategy by the Russians for land grab and posturing. Also a warning to Ukraine. The Russians seem really aggressive and bent on finishing the task.

At this rate, things could escalate and spiral out of control. Unfortunately, I don't see the US and definitely not the UN stepping in to help.



This is exactly how I view the issue. Russia (Putin) is trying to expand it's borders. This should be of major concern to the west. If I was living in Eastern Europe I wouldn't be feeling to secure right about now.

The world (Nato, UN, etc) need to step in and stop this.

roachboy 08-11-2008 03:56 PM

nato isn't going to do anything.
the americans cannot do anything.
the united nations will not do anything.
no-one will do anything.

i think the russians want a different government in georgia.
i think they'll get one.
"regime change"---the americans have done it for years too, so it's not like there's any moral high ground to be had on this.
i don't see them occupying georgia outright.

in the end, the government of georgia threw the dice and apparently is in the process of losing. they did not have to move into south ossetia. they chose to do it.

meanwhile, civilians die.
people like you and me.
that is what happens in such situations.

BogeyDope 08-11-2008 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by girldetective (Post 2503656)
They have allies, including the US.

America is not now, nor has it ever been, Georgia's ally.

Russia is at no fault, to my knowledge. South Ossetia is 100% Russian. Hell, 96% of them have Russian passports. For years, there have been reports of Georgian troops razing villages and killing civilians. There are estimated numbers of 9,000 more dead because of this. Russia deployed peacekeepers recently to provide a show of force in the area. Georgia, possibly thinking it can create support for it's cause, attacked a local peacekeeping force, and killed 30 Russian Troops. Russia responded and kicked their ass. If anything, I say go Russia.

As for breaking Georgian borders, Vladimir Putin demanded that Georgian troops retreat and disband their weapons by Sunday. This did not happen, hence the invasion of Georgia. Is it me or does it seem as though mass media is making Russia at fault for this all?

Also, to anyone who has heard this, this is nothing like the Afghan-Russo war of 1979. I have heard this claim repeatedly on the news. Afghanistan was a small, neutral nation that was trading with Europe. The U.S.S.R. saw Afghanistan's importance, as the nation is rich in Oil and Natural Gas [about 5% of the worlds oil, and at that time 30% of Russia's oil pipelines ran through Afghanistan], and took them over with no provocation, as opposed to this situation where Georgia killed Russian troops and incited a war.

UKking 08-11-2008 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daval (Post 2505220)

The world (Nato, UN, etc) need to step in and stop this.

Not sure if this was mentioned already, but Georgia 'started it'. Russia is capitalizing on the provocation. So our relative justification for stepping in is dubious. Aside from the fact that it is a war and civilians are dying, what is so special this time? Nothing... Except that it's Russia, and no one seems to want to see Russia get powerful again. In that way, our primary motivation is a somewhat selfish fear. So putting that aside, what real right have we to step in?

So they'll take whatever they can in this instance probably... But the big question is what's next? If they invaded Ukraine, for instance, would there be enough justification then for intervention? No clue, there...

dlish 08-11-2008 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralMao (Post 2505260)
....... Afghanistan was a small, neutral nation that was trading with Europe.



small as in small size? have you seen a map of afghanistan lately?

not that i disagree with most of what you said though... maybe it wasnt well known, but definately not small by any means.

this is getting messy in georgia but i dont see much response from the rest of the world. its like russia vs chechnya all over again. big burly brother showing its military might against a much weaker younger brother. that sounds about right....

the rest of the world will continue to ignore georgia like it did with chechnya. im not so sure about what interests russia has in ossetia, but there must be something. i know that they needed the oil pipes to run through chechnya, so they wouldnt allow it its independance. no ones really spoken about this yet. i doubts its just about russia standing up for south ossetia. theres gotta be something in it for russia.

jorgelito 08-11-2008 08:32 PM

It's really too bad. All of standing around watching another country bully its way into another one (I know, slippery slope). What's next Ukraine?

What can we do? The UN is impotent and completely useless. US is overstretched and not eager to take action. Yes there a ton of conflicts everywhere but we can't keep ignoring them.

Russia may have not "started" it, but its actions are hardly justifiable.

BogeyDope 08-11-2008 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito (Post 2505372)
Russia may have not "started" it, but its actions are hardly justifiable.


Russia's actions are very justifiable. It was originally their land, it was their people being killed by the Georgians, and their peacekeepers were attacked by Georgian troops. I think that is enough justification to take back what is theirs. On top of that, they allowed the Georgians a generous amount of time to withdraw and surrender, but they passed that chance, so all the more reason to continue.

jorgelito 08-11-2008 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralMao (Post 2505409)
Russia's actions are very justifiable. It was originally their land, it was their people being killed by the Georgians, and their peacekeepers were attacked by Georgian troops. I think that is enough justification to take back what is theirs. On top of that, they allowed the Georgians a generous amount of time to withdraw and surrender, but they passed that chance, so all the more reason to continue.

This is debatable.

Nisses 08-11-2008 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito (Post 2505413)
This is debatable.

everything is debatable.

Doesn't mean Mao doesn't have a few very strong arguments.

jorgelito 08-12-2008 12:31 AM

It was a "breakaway separatist movement" in sovereign Georgian territory. The Russian illegally occupied Georgian territory then further violated their sovereignty by issuing Russian passports and citizenships to Georgian citizens. I do not agree that the Russian's actions were justifiable. Were the Russian actions in separatist Chechnya justifiable too? Why is ok for the Russians to suppress a separatist movement in their country but not ok for the Georgians to suppress a separatist movement in their own country?
-----Added 12/8/2008 at 04 : 31 : 59-----
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisses (Post 2505424)
everything is debatable.

Ok, what's your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisses (Post 2505424)
Doesn't mean Mao doesn't have a few very strong arguments.

I disagree.

Pacifier 08-12-2008 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralMao (Post 2505409)
Russia's actions are very justifiable. It was originally their land.

No, according to international law South Ossetia is a part of Georgia.
What would you do if Canada would send some "Peace Tropps" to an US Region?

Both Sides are playing and have different interests, lots of grey shades

I think this sums it up nicely:
Of Helpless Hotheads and Half-Baked Warriors

Miss Mango 08-12-2008 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKking (Post 2504530)

Looks like heres the reporting that those pictures came from.

BogeyDope 08-12-2008 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacifier (Post 2505496)
No, according to international law South Ossetia is a part of Georgia.
What would you do if Canada would send some "Peace Tropps" to an US Region?

Both Sides are playing and have different interests, lots of grey shades

I think this sums it up nicely:
Of Helpless Hotheads and Half-Baked Warriors


Are you kidding me? International law? South Ossetia was and always has been Russian. Just because the Georgians grabbed it due to anti-Russian feelings with the fall of the Soviet Union doesn't mean it's theirs. Hell, the Ossetians are helping the Russian troops fight against the Georgian's. You want to talk about International law, let's talk about the fact that the Ossetians want to be under Russian control, and in that case, the truth comes out; Russia is currently liberating it's own territory.

There are no gray shades. Just the bs anti-Russian propaganda the news is constantly projecting.
-----Added 12/8/2008 at 09 : 35 : 12-----
Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito (Post 2505413)
This is debatable.


No, it is not debatable. You can't argue logic and hard facts. Russia had peacekeepers, they were attacked, they responded justifiably. It goes beyond that too. In the last 16 years, thousands of Russians have been killed, dozens of villages have been razed, and Russia has been provoked time and time again. But of course, if people knew that, then the Russians wouldn't seem so bad, would they?

Fohur2 08-12-2008 06:21 PM

Georgia is the successor to the Georgian SSR and South Ossetia was an Autonomous oblast inside the Geogian SSR.Can you please explain the idea that South Ossetia is a part of Russia.The Russian SFSR had 16 Autonomous Republics,does this mean they can declare independence as well .

jorgelito 08-12-2008 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralMao (Post 2505931)
Are you kidding me? International law? South Ossetia was and always has been Russian. Just because the Georgians grabbed it due to anti-Russian feelings with the fall of the Soviet Union doesn't mean it's theirs. Hell, the Ossetians are helping the Russian troops fight against the Georgian's. You want to talk about International law, let's talk about the fact that the Ossetians want to be under Russian control, and in that case, the truth comes out; Russia is currently liberating it's own territory.

There are no gray shades. Just the bs anti-Russian propaganda the news is constantly projecting.
-----Added 12/8/2008 at 09 : 35 : 12-----



No, it is not debatable. You can't argue logic and hard facts. Russia had peacekeepers, they were attacked, they responded justifiably. It goes beyond that too. In the last 16 years, thousands of Russians have been killed, dozens of villages have been razed, and Russia has been provoked time and time again. But of course, if people knew that, then the Russians wouldn't seem so bad, would they?

Fair enough points. I never said the Georgians were guiltless either. However, what IS debatable to me is whether or not it was justifiable action on the Russian's part. This obviously goes back a ways and is more complicated than we realize.

There hasn't been much anti-Russian bias so far. There has been good reporting on both (or three) side thus far. What I do know is that the Russian "peace keepers" shouldn't have been there in the first place. From all accounts, Georgia is a sovereign country and "South Ossetia" is part of Georgia. Therefore Russia's invasion and occupation of Georgia was a violation of Georgia's sovereignty. If you feel we are wrong here, then please, give us an explanation and walk us through it.
-----Added 12/8/2008 at 11 : 02 : 36-----
Well, it looks like both sides has agreed to a cease fire. We'll see what happens from here.

Pacifier 08-12-2008 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralMao (Post 2505931)
Are you kidding me? International law? South Ossetia was and always has been Russian. Just because the Georgians grabbed it due to anti-Russian feelings with the fall of the Soviet Union doesn't mean it's theirs. Hell, the Ossetians are helping the Russian troops fight against the Georgian's. You want to talk about International law, let's talk about the fact that the Ossetians want to be under Russian control, and in that case, the truth comes out; Russia is currently liberating it's own territory.


No Nation has recognized SOs independence, besinde Russia of course. They have done it just to piss off the Georgians and to do some payback to the West.

Russia is not a peaceloving Liberator, remember what they did to the Chechens when they went for independence?

One of the Problems is, IMO, that there are no commonly accepted rules for seperation. This has caused a shitload of Problems in the past (Chechnya, Kosovo etc.) and will continue to cause problems.

Halifax 08-12-2008 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacifier (Post 2506079)
No Nation has recognized SOs independence, besinde Russia of course. They have done it just to piss off the Georgians and to do some payback to the West.

Russia is not a peaceloving Liberator, remember what they did to the Chechens when they went for independence?

One of the Problems is, IMO, that there are no commonly accepted rules for seperation. This has caused a shitload of Problems in the past (Chechnya, Kosovo etc.) and will continue to cause problems.

True. Just proves that the oft-cited "international law" is a rather tenuous thing. What is founded on besides common consent? A new nation is not a nation it seems unless a majority of other nations decide that it is, (or a majority of the nations that matter). We can make appeals to the "fundamental right of self-determination," but that too is problematic. Again, what is it founded upon? And practically speaking, where do we draw the line that determines which qroups are recognized as legitimate 'nations?' If anyone and everyone has a right to self-determination, then any band of cranks and dissidents can just up and start their own 'nation.'

Fohur2 08-13-2008 03:45 PM

Just a small correction,Russia hasn't recognized SO's independence.So it is in fact invading Georgia since it itself considers SO part of Georgia.That doesn't mean they wouldn't support SO if it wasn't more of an international issue.This new European peace plan for an end to the conflict which was accepted my Mendeleev calls for "the start of international discussions on the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and ways of providing for their stable security".

jorgelito 08-13-2008 04:57 PM

Interesting, thanks for the update.

The_Jazz 08-13-2008 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralMao (Post 2505931)
Are you kidding me? International law? South Ossetia was and always has been Russian. Just because the Georgians grabbed it due to anti-Russian feelings with the fall of the Soviet Union doesn't mean it's theirs. Hell, the Ossetians are helping the Russian troops fight against the Georgian's. You want to talk about International law, let's talk about the fact that the Ossetians want to be under Russian control, and in that case, the truth comes out; Russia is currently liberating it's own territory.

There are no gray shades. Just the bs anti-Russian propaganda the news is constantly projecting.
-----Added 12/8/2008 at 09 : 35 : 12-----



No, it is not debatable. You can't argue logic and hard facts. Russia had peacekeepers, they were attacked, they responded justifiably. It goes beyond that too. In the last 16 years, thousands of Russians have been killed, dozens of villages have been razed, and Russia has been provoked time and time again. But of course, if people knew that, then the Russians wouldn't seem so bad, would they?

Imagine, if you will, me rubbing my hands with glee at seeing this post.

First, South Ossetia has not "always" been Russian. It is most definitely not a historical part of Russia, which, depending on when you set the era is between 500 and 750 miles farther north. Given that Tolstoy fought in the Causasus in the 1840's, and that it wasn't annexed by the Russian Empire until 1803, calling any part of Georgia a historical part of Russia ignores, well, history. It also ignores the fact that it's the historical homeland of the Ossetians, who claim Stalin as one of their own (through his father).

The Ossetians are a distinct people who have mostly assimilated with the Georgians but have remained separate. When Stalin was in the Kremlin, he elevated several Ossetians to high posts over Georgians, and he considered their assimilation a problem. So when you say that 96% of Ossetians have Russian passports and imply that they are ethnic Russians, you really sound like a tool of the Kremlin and one that is particularly uninformed.

Let me know if you want me to give you citations for the above. Anyone willing to spend 5 minutes researching it can find all of that information easily, but I've found Montefiore and Riasanovsky quite informative. If you've got source material that differs, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, well, your posts really have nothing to do with historical facts.

General Mao, you are confusing Georgian and Chechens. The Georgians have not killed Russian troops; Chechen rebels/irregulars/terrorists/bandits have. The Ossetians have held no referendums stating that they want to be annexed by Russia. The Georgian Army has not "razed villages", Russian or otherwise. Any statements to the contrary are completely unfounded. You are right that there are no shades of gray here; Ossetia is a part of Georgia. Russia invaded it. If you want to shine bright lights on border conflicts, why don't we talk about the Russians and Chinese lobbing shells at one another across the Amur. If you have evidence to the contrary, though, let's see it. Otherwise, well, you venture close to the definition of "trolling".

jorgelito 08-13-2008 09:11 PM

Here's an update and summary so far:

Quote:


Winners and losers after Georgia conflict

By Paul Reynolds
World affairs correspondent BBC news website

Georgian President Saakashvili
Under pressure: Georgian President Saakashvili
There are some clear winners and losers in the conflict over South Ossetia - and the crisis has shown the need for a fresh start in relations between Russia and the West.

First, the balance sheet:

Winners

Russia: It has emerged strongly, able to impose its will in South Ossetia and sending a clear signal about its readiness to assert itself.

It agreed to a ceasefire plan when its objective - control of South Ossetia - was achieved. The plan basically calls for no further use of force and some kind of return to the position before the conflict. However, Russia's foreign minister said Georgian troops would "never again" be allowed to resume their role as part of the joint peacekeeping force agreed with Russia in 1992. It is not clear whether Russian forces will be reduced to the battalion-sized unit allowed for in that agreement.

This is unlikely. Think more of Cyprus in 1974, when the Turks intervened, making similar claims about protecting their kith and kin. They are still there.

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin: He confirms that he is the power in the land. He gave strong performances throughout, especially when accusing the West of double standards by ignoring the casualties caused in Georgia's attempt to take over the enclave.

"What is surprising is the sheer scale of the cynicism - calling black white and white black, portraying aggressors as victims," he said. That goes down well at home.

The South Ossetians: The separatist movement will be in greater control now that Russia has taken over completely.

Old Europe: France and Germany, which are cautious about letting Georgia and Ukraine into Nato, will feel vindicated. They think that a country like Georgia with a border dispute should not yet be allowed in.

Losers

The dead and wounded, of course: There are no accurate figures, but they might run into the hundreds. One problem has been the lack of reporting from inside South Ossetia. The initial Russian claim that a thousand and more were killed in the Georgian attack cannot be verified.

President Saakashvili of Georgia: He has been championed by the Bush administration but he failed in his attempt to impose Georgian control over South Ossetia and has to pay a price. Harsh words are being said about him by some European governments, where there has been private criticism of what one close observer called his "sudden and emotional" decision.

The truth: This has been a difficult conflict in which to sort out the facts. Russia failed to back up its claims of Georgian atrocities and did not allow reporters and international observers in to check them. Georgia made all kinds of claims that Russia was invading, including a statement that Russian troops had taken over the town of Gori which proved not to be so.

The US and UK at least have chosen to represent this as Russian aggression. Yet it was Georgia that attacked with a rocket barrage which by its nature was indiscriminate.

Russian Prime Minister Putin
Rising Russia: Prime Minister Putin

The West: Once again, the West was taken by surprise. The word in Washington (and London) is that President Saakashvili was warned to exercise restraint. If so, not only has Russia come out on top against a potential Western Nato ally, but that potential ally ignored serious advice from its mentors.

This raises the issue of what happens now.

The need for a new start

The fact is that the West needs Russia and Russia needs the West. Russia wants (or will want) to be better integrated into the world economic system and to be taken seriously as a diplomatic partner.

The West needs Russian support in the confrontation with Iran and Sudan, for example.

And perhaps the West needs to acknowledge that the Russians did have a case. It needs to explain why it helped Kosovo but questioned Russia's right to help South Ossetia.

However, there is already talk in Western capitals about retaliating against Russia for what is seen as its "disproportionate" response to the Georgian attack.

The following measures might be considered:

Blocking a new Russia/EU agreement: This covers a wide range of issues from trade to human rights. The old agreement is running out and negotiations must start on a new one. It is a symbol of good co-operation.

Restating Nato's commitment to Georgian and Ukrainian membership: This was agreed in principle in April and might be reaffirmed at a Nato meeting in December. However, there is no timetable and realistically, the conflict probably puts this off into the distant future.

Blocking Russian membership of the World Trade Organization: There could also be a questioning of Russian membership of the G8 group of leading industrial countries.

Whatever the outcome, the fortunately relatively small-scale war over South Ossetia has highlighted the present unsatisfactory situation between Russia and what one still has to call the West.

alkaloid 08-17-2008 12:48 AM

Perhaps we should shut up about Georgian situation and stop sounding like such hypocrites. We really fucked up in Iraq and Afghanistan. And perhaps we should support the Russian effort to stop Saakashvili's cynical effort to initiate ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia. And nice timing starting the war during the Olympics too, asshole. He should be hunted down and tried for his crimes against humanity.

Let's just remember who started this: Georgia.
Let's remember that majority of 2000+ "war casualties" are due to Georgians bombing South Ossetian civilians.

I say we send American troops to Georgia and help the Russians punish this Clown of Georgia.

Bear Cub 08-18-2008 04:41 PM

http://www.eatmyshorts.net/files/1218758652.jpg

Halifax 08-19-2008 12:04 AM

It's hard for me to comment on all of this because I have a great deal of personal affection for Russian language and culture, but I really, honestly believe that when it comes to the two other superpowers in the world, (or at least soon-to-be superpowers)—Russia and China—it is the Russians with whom we Americans have the closest kinship. They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth though at times headstrong or boorish, even reckless. We ought to be friends with these people, but even after 16 post-Soviet years it seems that all we can do is antagonize. And all the while, we try to cuddle up to China despite all their abuses and oppression. The only reason I can see for it is that the latter has us by the balls financially while the former doesn't.

jorgelito 08-19-2008 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halifax (Post 2509314)
It's hard for me to comment on all of this because I have a great deal of personal affection for Russian language and culture, but I really, honestly believe that when it comes to the two other superpowers in the world, (or at least soon-to-be superpowers)—Russia and China—it is the Russians with whom we Americans have the closest kinship. They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth though at times headstrong or boorish, even reckless. We ought to be friends with these people, but even after 16 post-Soviet years it seems that all we can do is antagonize. And all the while, we try to cuddle up to China despite all their abuses and oppression. The only reason I can see for it is that the latter has us by the balls financially while the former doesn't.

Like Russia doesn't have abuses and oppression? Really, way to reduce 1.3 billion people to a dehumanized homogeneous monolith. I also think your view of the Russian is way off the mark:

"They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth"

Try telling that to the Chechens, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, Estonians, etc...

Halifax 08-19-2008 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito (Post 2509328)
Like Russia doesn't have abuses and oppression? Really, way to reduce 1.3 billion people to a dehumanized homogeneous monolith. I also think your view of the Russian is way off the mark:

"They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth"

Try telling that to the Chechens, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, Estonians, etc...

Whoah, hold up there! Of course there are Russian abuses! I'm not a fan of Putin & Co, not at all. I just question why we pick one large, problematic country to deal with over the other. With China, our policy is to work with them while still condemning the wrongs they do. With Russia, though, our policy is to encircle them with our allies and plant a "missile shield" on their doorstep. Just seems a little one-sided is all. And I'm not trying to stereotype the Chinese people. (If you noticed, I was speaking about China—that is, the government—not the Chinese.) I just think that culturally and historically, we share more in common with the Russians.

UKking 08-22-2008 11:34 AM

However bold Russia may feel though, they're hemming themselves in already. Last week, Poland signed a treaty with the US to allow some kind of missile defense thing on their turf, something Poland has been reluctant to agree to until now. I guess we can assume Russia's recent actions have got East European states nervous and thinking on the same page as us... Russia wont get far without friends.

ottopilot 08-22-2008 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alkaloid (Post 2508322)
Perhaps we should shut up about Georgian situation and stop sounding like such hypocrites. We really fucked up in Iraq and Afghanistan. And perhaps we should support the Russian effort to stop Saakashvili's cynical effort to initiate ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia. And nice timing starting the war during the Olympics too, asshole. He should be hunted down and tried for his crimes against humanity.

Let's just remember who started this: Georgia.
Let's remember that majority of 2000+ "war casualties" are due to Georgians bombing South Ossetian civilians.

I say we send American troops to Georgia and help the Russians punish this Clown of Georgia.

Yes... that's exactly what Pravda says about the whole thing (NBC too).

Scenario: Imagine Russia is the U.S. and Georgia is Mexico ... and the U.S. decided to invade Mexico because "we say" some of their border towns really really want to be part of the U.S.A. ... and that the Mexican military unjustly fired on U.S. forces while occupying Mexican territories... oh, and look over there, while we're at it, let's head toward Mexico's sweet oil pipeline that competes with ours... oops, we destroyed the Mexican military bases and equipment along with vital public infrastructure... and say, look at that nice chunk of waterfront property for ports, I think we'll stay here for a while and protect those Mexicans ... I mean "separatists".

That would be a more accurate description of what is happening in Georgia.

Just curious - since you mention it... what do you feel that were the failures in Iraq and Afghanistan?

UKking 08-22-2008 01:09 PM

I was watching some financial news today, and apparently investors are pulling out of a lot of stuff in Russia.

It was just interesting that there's an aspect of financial warfare that I never considered. It wasn't done purposely for that, but some investors just don't feel safe with throwing tons of money into any businesses over there due to the conflict.


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