Georgia On My Mind - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Jazz · 08-13-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralMao

Are you kidding me? International law? South Ossetia was and always has been Russian. Just because the Georgians grabbed it due to anti-Russian feelings with the fall of the Soviet Union doesn't mean it's theirs. Hell, the Ossetians are helping the Russian troops fight against the Georgian's. You want to talk about International law, let's talk about the fact that the Ossetians want to be under Russian control, and in that case, the truth comes out; Russia is currently liberating it's own territory.

There are no gray shades. Just the bs anti-Russian propaganda the news is constantly projecting.
-----Added 12/8/2008 at 09 : 35 : 12-----

No, it is not debatable. You can't argue logic and hard facts. Russia had peacekeepers, they were attacked, they responded justifiably. It goes beyond that too. In the last 16 years, thousands of Russians have been killed, dozens of villages have been razed, and Russia has been provoked time and time again. But of course, if people knew that, then the Russians wouldn't seem so bad, would they?

Imagine, if you will, me rubbing my hands with glee at seeing this post.

First, South Ossetia has not "always" been Russian. It is most definitely not a historical part of Russia, which, depending on when you set the era is between 500 and 750 miles farther north. Given that Tolstoy fought in the Causasus in the 1840's, and that it wasn't annexed by the Russian Empire until 1803, calling any part of Georgia a historical part of Russia ignores, well, history. It also ignores the fact that it's the historical homeland of the Ossetians, who claim Stalin as one of their own (through his father).

The Ossetians are a distinct people who have mostly assimilated with the Georgians but have remained separate. When Stalin was in the Kremlin, he elevated several Ossetians to high posts over Georgians, and he considered their assimilation a problem. So when you say that 96% of Ossetians have Russian passports and imply that they are ethnic Russians, you really sound like a tool of the Kremlin and one that is particularly uninformed.

Let me know if you want me to give you citations for the above. Anyone willing to spend 5 minutes researching it can find all of that information easily, but I've found Montefiore and Riasanovsky quite informative. If you've got source material that differs, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, well, your posts really have nothing to do with historical facts.

General Mao, you are confusing Georgian and Chechens. The Georgians have not killed Russian troops; Chechen rebels/irregulars/terrorists/bandits have. The Ossetians have held no referendums stating that they want to be annexed by Russia. The Georgian Army has not "razed villages", Russian or otherwise. Any statements to the contrary are completely unfounded. You are right that there are no shades of gray here; Ossetia is a part of Georgia. Russia invaded it. If you want to shine bright lights on border conflicts, why don't we talk about the Russians and Chinese lobbing shells at one another across the Amur. If you have evidence to the contrary, though, let's see it. Otherwise, well, you venture close to the definition of "trolling".

jorgelito · 08-13-2008, 09:11 PM

Here's an update and summary so far:

Quote:

Winners and losers after Georgia conflict

By Paul Reynolds
World affairs correspondent BBC news website

Georgian President Saakashvili
Under pressure: Georgian President Saakashvili
There are some clear winners and losers in the conflict over South Ossetia - and the crisis has shown the need for a fresh start in relations between Russia and the West.

First, the balance sheet:

Winners

Russia: It has emerged strongly, able to impose its will in South Ossetia and sending a clear signal about its readiness to assert itself.

It agreed to a ceasefire plan when its objective - control of South Ossetia - was achieved. The plan basically calls for no further use of force and some kind of return to the position before the conflict. However, Russia's foreign minister said Georgian troops would "never again" be allowed to resume their role as part of the joint peacekeeping force agreed with Russia in 1992. It is not clear whether Russian forces will be reduced to the battalion-sized unit allowed for in that agreement.

This is unlikely. Think more of Cyprus in 1974, when the Turks intervened, making similar claims about protecting their kith and kin. They are still there.

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin: He confirms that he is the power in the land. He gave strong performances throughout, especially when accusing the West of double standards by ignoring the casualties caused in Georgia's attempt to take over the enclave.

"What is surprising is the sheer scale of the cynicism - calling black white and white black, portraying aggressors as victims," he said. That goes down well at home.

The South Ossetians: The separatist movement will be in greater control now that Russia has taken over completely.

Old Europe: France and Germany, which are cautious about letting Georgia and Ukraine into Nato, will feel vindicated. They think that a country like Georgia with a border dispute should not yet be allowed in.

Losers

The dead and wounded, of course: There are no accurate figures, but they might run into the hundreds. One problem has been the lack of reporting from inside South Ossetia. The initial Russian claim that a thousand and more were killed in the Georgian attack cannot be verified.

President Saakashvili of Georgia: He has been championed by the Bush administration but he failed in his attempt to impose Georgian control over South Ossetia and has to pay a price. Harsh words are being said about him by some European governments, where there has been private criticism of what one close observer called his "sudden and emotional" decision.

The truth: This has been a difficult conflict in which to sort out the facts. Russia failed to back up its claims of Georgian atrocities and did not allow reporters and international observers in to check them. Georgia made all kinds of claims that Russia was invading, including a statement that Russian troops had taken over the town of Gori which proved not to be so.

The US and UK at least have chosen to represent this as Russian aggression. Yet it was Georgia that attacked with a rocket barrage which by its nature was indiscriminate.

Russian Prime Minister Putin
Rising Russia: Prime Minister Putin

The West: Once again, the West was taken by surprise. The word in Washington (and London) is that President Saakashvili was warned to exercise restraint. If so, not only has Russia come out on top against a potential Western Nato ally, but that potential ally ignored serious advice from its mentors.

This raises the issue of what happens now.

The need for a new start

The fact is that the West needs Russia and Russia needs the West. Russia wants (or will want) to be better integrated into the world economic system and to be taken seriously as a diplomatic partner.

The West needs Russian support in the confrontation with Iran and Sudan, for example.

And perhaps the West needs to acknowledge that the Russians did have a case. It needs to explain why it helped Kosovo but questioned Russia's right to help South Ossetia.

However, there is already talk in Western capitals about retaliating against Russia for what is seen as its "disproportionate" response to the Georgian attack.

The following measures might be considered:

Blocking a new Russia/EU agreement: This covers a wide range of issues from trade to human rights. The old agreement is running out and negotiations must start on a new one. It is a symbol of good co-operation.

Restating Nato's commitment to Georgian and Ukrainian membership: This was agreed in principle in April and might be reaffirmed at a Nato meeting in December. However, there is no timetable and realistically, the conflict probably puts this off into the distant future.

Blocking Russian membership of the World Trade Organization: There could also be a questioning of Russian membership of the G8 group of leading industrial countries.

Whatever the outcome, the fortunately relatively small-scale war over South Ossetia has highlighted the present unsatisfactory situation between Russia and what one still has to call the West.

alkaloid · 08-17-2008, 12:48 AM

Perhaps we should shut up about Georgian situation and stop sounding like such hypocrites. We really fucked up in Iraq and Afghanistan. And perhaps we should support the Russian effort to stop Saakashvili's cynical effort to initiate ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia. And nice timing starting the war during the Olympics too, asshole. He should be hunted down and tried for his crimes against humanity.

Let's just remember who started this: Georgia.
Let's remember that majority of 2000+ "war casualties" are due to Georgians bombing South Ossetian civilians.

I say we send American troops to Georgia and help the Russians punish this Clown of Georgia.

Bear Cub · 08-18-2008, 04:41 PM

Halifax · 08-19-2008, 12:04 AM

It's hard for me to comment on all of this because I have a great deal of personal affection for Russian language and culture, but I really, honestly believe that when it comes to the two other superpowers in the world, (or at least soon-to-be superpowers)—Russia and China—it is the Russians with whom we Americans have the closest kinship. They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth though at times headstrong or boorish, even reckless. We ought to be friends with these people, but even after 16 post-Soviet years it seems that all we can do is antagonize. And all the while, we try to cuddle up to China despite all their abuses and oppression. The only reason I can see for it is that the latter has us by the balls financially while the former doesn't.

jorgelito · 08-19-2008, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halifax

It's hard for me to comment on all of this because I have a great deal of personal affection for Russian language and culture, but I really, honestly believe that when it comes to the two other superpowers in the world, (or at least soon-to-be superpowers)—Russia and China—it is the Russians with whom we Americans have the closest kinship. They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth though at times headstrong or boorish, even reckless. We ought to be friends with these people, but even after 16 post-Soviet years it seems that all we can do is antagonize. And all the while, we try to cuddle up to China despite all their abuses and oppression. The only reason I can see for it is that the latter has us by the balls financially while the former doesn't.

Like Russia doesn't have abuses and oppression? Really, way to reduce 1.3 billion people to a dehumanized homogeneous monolith. I also think your view of the Russian is way off the mark:

"They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth"

Try telling that to the Chechens, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, Estonians, etc...

Halifax · 08-19-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Like Russia doesn't have abuses and oppression? Really, way to reduce 1.3 billion people to a dehumanized homogeneous monolith. I also think your view of the Russian is way off the mark:

"They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth"

Try telling that to the Chechens, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, Estonians, etc...

Whoah, hold up there! Of course there are Russian abuses! I'm not a fan of Putin & Co, not at all. I just question why we pick one large, problematic country to deal with over the other. With China, our policy is to work with them while still condemning the wrongs they do. With Russia, though, our policy is to encircle them with our allies and plant a "missile shield" on their doorstep. Just seems a little one-sided is all. And I'm not trying to stereotype the Chinese people. (If you noticed, I was speaking about China—that is, the government—not the Chinese.) I just think that culturally and historically, we share more in common with the Russians.

UKking · 08-22-2008, 11:34 AM

However bold Russia may feel though, they're hemming themselves in already. Last week, Poland signed a treaty with the US to allow some kind of missile defense thing on their turf, something Poland has been reluctant to agree to until now. I guess we can assume Russia's recent actions have got East European states nervous and thinking on the same page as us... Russia wont get far without friends.

ottopilot · 08-22-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alkaloid

Perhaps we should shut up about Georgian situation and stop sounding like such hypocrites. We really fucked up in Iraq and Afghanistan. And perhaps we should support the Russian effort to stop Saakashvili's cynical effort to initiate ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia. And nice timing starting the war during the Olympics too, asshole. He should be hunted down and tried for his crimes against humanity.

Let's just remember who started this: Georgia.
Let's remember that majority of 2000+ "war casualties" are due to Georgians bombing South Ossetian civilians.

I say we send American troops to Georgia and help the Russians punish this Clown of Georgia.

Yes... that's exactly what Pravda says about the whole thing (NBC too).

Scenario: Imagine Russia is the U.S. and Georgia is Mexico ... and the U.S. decided to invade Mexico because "we say" some of their border towns really really want to be part of the U.S.A. ... and that the Mexican military unjustly fired on U.S. forces while occupying Mexican territories... oh, and look over there, while we're at it, let's head toward Mexico's sweet oil pipeline that competes with ours... oops, we destroyed the Mexican military bases and equipment along with vital public infrastructure... and say, look at that nice chunk of waterfront property for ports, I think we'll stay here for a while and protect those Mexicans ... I mean "separatists".

That would be a more accurate description of what is happening in Georgia.

Just curious - since you mention it... what do you feel that were the failures in Iraq and Afghanistan?

UKking · 08-22-2008, 01:09 PM

I was watching some financial news today, and apparently investors are pulling out of a lot of stuff in Russia.

It was just interesting that there's an aspect of financial warfare that I never considered. It wasn't done purposely for that, but some investors just don't feel safe with throwing tons of money into any businesses over there due to the conflict.

08-18-2008, 04:41 PM	#44 (permalink)
Bear Cub The Reverend Side Boob Location: Nofe Curolina	__________________ Living in the United Socialist States of America.

08-19-2008, 12:04 AM	#45 (permalink)
Halifax Upright Location: Republic of Tejas	It's hard for me to comment on all of this because I have a great deal of personal affection for Russian language and culture, but I really, honestly believe that when it comes to the two other superpowers in the world, (or at least soon-to-be superpowers)—Russia and China—it is the Russians with whom we Americans have the closest kinship. They're our sort of people: industrious, resourceful, lovers of life, capable of profound friendship and warmth though at times headstrong or boorish, even reckless. We ought to be friends with these people, but even after 16 post-Soviet years it seems that all we can do is antagonize. And all the while, we try to cuddle up to China despite all their abuses and oppression. The only reason I can see for it is that the latter has us by the balls financially while the former doesn't. __________________ Philosopher-in-Training “The present writer…writes because for him it is a luxury which becomes the more agreeable and more evident, the fewer there are who buy and read what he writes.” —Søren Kierkegaard

08-17-2008, 12:48 AM	#43 (permalink)
alkaloid Dead Inside Location: East Coast, USA	Perhaps we should shut up about Georgian situation and stop sounding like such hypocrites. We really fucked up in Iraq and Afghanistan. And perhaps we should support the Russian effort to stop Saakashvili's cynical effort to initiate ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia. And nice timing starting the war during the Olympics too, asshole. He should be hunted down and tried for his crimes against humanity. Let's just remember who started this: Georgia. Let's remember that majority of 2000+ "war casualties" are due to Georgians bombing South Ossetian civilians. I say we send American troops to Georgia and help the Russians punish this Clown of Georgia.

08-22-2008, 11:34 AM	#48 (permalink)
UKking Crazy	However bold Russia may feel though, they're hemming themselves in already. Last week, Poland signed a treaty with the US to allow some kind of missile defense thing on their turf, something Poland has been reluctant to agree to until now. I guess we can assume Russia's recent actions have got East European states nervous and thinking on the same page as us... Russia wont get far without friends.

08-22-2008, 01:09 PM	#50 (permalink)
UKking Crazy	I was watching some financial news today, and apparently investors are pulling out of a lot of stuff in Russia. It was just interesting that there's an aspect of financial warfare that I never considered. It wasn't done purposely for that, but some investors just don't feel safe with throwing tons of money into any businesses over there due to the conflict.