thespian86

In a discussion in Politics that began about American Arrogance and misperceptions, a few snide comments turned into a back and forth of sorts; all about who is right and wrong. Within that "right and wrong" this really interesting thing happened. The accusations of who was what nationally began and I think it's a really interesting concept. Publicly, the United States talk a lot about Patriotism. In Canada, there was a popular beer commercial (let the clichés begin) stating "I am Canadian" and it clearly hit home with all of us. The Welsh are British BUT NOT English. The Black Irish, depending on where you are, is either northern or southern Irish. Ruskies, Italian Stallions, etc.

I thought about this simple question; what parts do our Nations play in this global play? What am I not? What offends me? Negativity ensued.

Then it became clearer. I am proud to be Canadian. The war of words I had with Matthew330 is because he is proud to be American. I've never met anyone prouder to be a Brit then Dan or Strange; well, maybe I have hahaha, you're a loud and proud group.

Then it complicated itself again. Clichés are clichés because they are kind of true yes? For instance I don't have a pet beaver but there is an overwhelming beaver population here and we are strangely proud of that. But what complicates the most is that, also something I considered while flaming Matty, there is no such thing as "An American" unless you're referring to someone who is an American citizen; you can't use it as a description of one's personality. Even the description changes from person to person.

This is a pretty tough, and lengthy answer so I don't expect many but I think it's something to think about. How are you perceived? What are you, and why are you; in reference to your Nationality? I've come up with this:

Cliche: Everyone expects us to be the laid back country to the North; forward thinking sure, but we know how to have a good time, and everyone knows they're invited. We are always chilly, we all play hockey, drink beer, hunt and fish, chop logs and build snow forts. By the way, almost all of us do all of those things, and celebrate it. We're educated but soft spoken, a gentler version of the powerful and kind neighbor that lives bellow us.

Personal: I was born in a fairly small town in New Brunswick, Canada called Fredericton and resented it most of my life. It's large enough that you are teased with the idea of success in the "conventional way" (big city, big house, big job, big life), but small enough that your options are so limited that you see that big dream of yours slip away. I have been surrounded by Natural beauty most of my life, as well as a city that is everything. Literally, there is nothing you can say that would describe a city that my city cannot also take credit for.

For instance:
-Next to San Fran, we have the second largest, per capita, gay population in North America.
-We have a thriving arts scene.
-We are driven by the trades, and are certainly a blue collar city.
At the same time we are the capital, and a great deal of the jobs are governmental, and therefore white collar.
-We are the seventh smartest city in the world (smartest, as in forward thinking).
-We are the second best place to buy real estate in Canada right now.
-We are a university town, and have a large population of young people.
-We are a retirement town and have a large population of old people.

Etc, etc.

I started to think about how remarkable my little bubble is; how absolutely incredible my life here was before I grew up too fast. And then I looked outside. The East Coast of Canada has to be one of the most environmentally rich places in the world; the ocean life, the forestry, the natural resources, the animal life, etc. Wow.

And then to the west coast it gets better. Hard nosed, blue collar workers, who believe in socialism (wtf? I was taught by CNN that those contradicted each other). Environmentally forward thinkers, really trying to make a change (Yay David Suzuki et al). A diversity that isn't just a word (First Nation life has always been a part of mine. As well as the french. I feel gifted to live in this place because of that alone). Vastly different climates within the same country. Snow storms that make people cry when they see them from Spain (my ex-girlfriend's grandparents). I love my country.

How did it affect me? Well I grew up in an environment that not only supported but encouraged positive social change. I can remember being young and learning about Medicare. What an incredible concept; thanks Tommy D. Nature walks to learn about the environment first hand, and it's importance. Promoting civility and diplomacy instead of aggressiveness and a conquer all mentality. I was encouraged to explore the wide world of careers and education because here it is important to have both a large amount of white collar and blue collar workers. It is a country of complete possibilities and a diversity like no other. A life of change where it's not always bad, and a fairly laid back feel that lets one explore without the pressure of discovering. And because of this, and several other important influences, I've grown up to be me. I'm pretty proud of that.

You too?

-Taylor

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Aladdin Sane

Taylor, I am a proud American. I love the ideal that my country stands for. But I also love it that you love Canada and the ideal for which it stands. I respect it that you are a proud Canadian. I love it that you dare admit it.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Daniel_

I don't know if I'm proud of being British, any more than I'm proud of being all. Being British s not something I chose, you see, it's something that happened to me. I realise how lucky I am that I was born into a good family in a wealthy part of a wealthy nation in a time of peace.

I am not a patriot per se, but I agree with this statement:

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Willravel

Cliche: Everyone expects one of three things from the San Francisco Bay Area: tech, homosexuals, and liberalism. Being honest, each of these are a part of the whole that is this area, but I think it's an oversimplification.

Personal: I was born in San Jose. I moved away for a chunk of my life, but being back has allowed me to gain the perspective to appreciate the area. The people here are really nice, everyone loves to exercise, most are liberal leaning not just politically but in most things, and it's a safe area to raise a family. I've had conversations with friends of mine that live all over, and usually when they describe how wonderful the place they live is it almost comes off segregated. San Jose may have some racists, but they're pretty quiet. Most businesses here are multicultural. I work with a Japanese man, a Kenyan man, and Guatamalan man, each of whom are colleagues. To be honest the only difference between us is our pasts and our accents.

I've been thinking about pride a lot lately. I've been pretty proud in the past, but there are negative and positive sides to it. Pride, like respect, should be earned. After all, you're talking about your perceptions; something important. Am I proud of my country? Not really. It's got some remarkable attributes, but really it's just another country. I think it was George Bernard Shaw who wrote: "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." This is what undue pride looks like to me. I'd rather be proud of my country for the good it's people does, not just because I'm born in it.


If I were Canadian, I'd be proud of our beavers, too...


Edit: It looks like Danial beat me to the George Bernard Shaw quote!

Reese

I do love George Bernard Shaw quotes

I'm not very patriotic. I think Daniel said everything I was going to say. I consider myself lucky to live in a good country but I think too much patriotism is the same as considering my country better than another I haven't experienced first hand and that's just silly to me.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

shesus

How are you perceived?
Honestly, I'm not sure how I'm perceived. I haven't been in one place for a long enough period of time to fit a cliche. I grew up in West Virginia, so technically, I should be pregnant, barefoot, and living in a trailer. But, that's my cousin because I got out of that area.
As for Chicago, I'm not sure what the cliche is.

What are you, and why are you; in reference to your Nationality?
I was born in America, so that makes me an American. I don't feel proud of my country. Will said pride is earned and at first I didn't agree, but now I see his point of view. This country hasn't done much to make me proud of it. I see too many children falling through cracks in the education system. I see too many people sick and dying because of lack of health care. I see people living on the streets because they have been hit with illnesses (mental or physical) and have no alternative. I see a large national deficit due to obscene amounts of money being spent on war.
With that said, I'm a bitter, but hopeful, American. I'm hoping for a change and I hope it comes soon.

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

Martian

To borrow from our southern neighbours...

Canada: Fuck Yeah!

So let's get the cliches out of the way. I don't drink, but when I was a drinker beer was my beverage of choice; in particular, I drank Blue (Labbatt's to all the Americans). I don'e eat donuts, but I used to make them. I haven't played hockey in years, and sadly my talent for the game was never enough to make it worth my while to pursue anything beyond backyard shinny, but at the same time I make no secret for my love of hockey, which is the only reason I still own a television. I say 'eh.' I can also pick out an American who says 'eh' to fit in; there's a subtlety to the use of that particular syllable that isn't readily apparent to outsiders. I remember seeing beaver dams and lodges in the creeks around my home as a child. I am socially and politically fairly liberal, with a dash of libertarianism thrown in. I am fascinated by guns in a technical sense, but have no desire to own one; the only guns I've ever see were police-issue sidearms or hunting rifles.

Am I patriotic? In a sense, yeah. See, I think Mr. Shaw got it backwards. It's not that I think Canada is the best country in the world because I live here, but rather that I'm incredibly thankful that I have the good fortune to live here because I think it's such a great place. Canada has a lot going for it, and when I consider my alternatives I was come back to realizing that there is no other place on Earth I'd rather live. You might be able to talk me into moving to the UK or Australia, but it'd have to be for a damn good reason and I suspect I'd always miss home.

A few years ago I dated a Catholic girl from Detroit, as some people here may recall. That was an interesting relationship partly because of it's contrasts. We had many a discussion on issues such as this, and on the distinctions between us. She was constantly stymied by our Parliamentary system and I was (and still am) similarly baffled by the US electoral college. The sorts of things that were issues in our daily lives were completely different; the idea of needing some sort of protection when I go anywhere, for example, was an alien concept, and it always confused me that she insisted on locking my door when we were in the apartment.

So, yeah. I love Canada for what it is. If I had the power there are certainly things I'd change; all the same, I can't fathom even wanting to live anywhere else. I could list reasons, but punkmusicfan21 has done a pretty good job of that. A lot of what makes Fredericton interesting applies to the country at large; our diverse natural resources, our multiculturalism, our social and political liberalism. I can't even imagine trying to deal with my health problems in a country where I'd have to pay for every hospital visit, x-ray, or consult; Id've gone destitute years ago, and probably have dragged my poor mother down with me. I feel safe in the streets, even at night. And I know that I can travel almost anywhere in the world and be welcomed with open arms. And these are the things I'm grateful for.

As an aside, Canadian patriotism is very strong, but I think it's largely an internal thing. We talk about it amongst ourselves, but don't shout about it to the rest of the world. The ad punkmusicfan21 mentioned is a prime example of this, and I present it below for anyone who hasn't seen it.



What's particularly notable about this is how it takes pains to make distinctions between Canada and the US. I think there's always been a sort of underlying paranoia here that we're going to be culturally assimilated. Given how much we're inundated with American media, I'm not at all certain it's unfounded.

EDIT - Trawling related videos to the one above, I came across this. Does this guy get to be patriotic?

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

abaya

That's a good summary of my feelings as well. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a critical American. Ktspktsp used to call me a self-hating American, which I think I was for several years in my 20s after initially living in Iceland and having all international friends. Bush has been in office since that time, which had a huge impact on my perspective.

Then I spent a few years in rural Pennsylvania, and came back to Iceland for the last 18 months (Icelanders also believes that their country is truly the best in the world, in every category--and it even has the "awards" to prove it), and I began to reconcile myself with being an American. I knew that I would always be on the outside of Icelandic society precisely because I had been raised elsewhere, and I had to figure out what exactly about America I carried within myself, without disowning it.

Now, I think I can say that I don't hate it anymore, and I will never love it unconditionally, but I do feel some sense of attachment and pride to it along with the same kind of frustration mentioned by shesus. I never want to be a fervent patriot of any country, really (I currently have two citizenships, may add more in the future)--too dangerous. The health of a nation depends on the ability of its citizens to discern truth from among the cliches, and to hold their administration accountable to those truths.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Aladdin Sane

Wow. Much of this matches my story. Back in the dark days of the Cold War, I was said to be a "self-hating American." Like you, I was part of an international crowd. After years of travel and time spent living in Europe, I began to appreciate the United States. Perhaps, like you, this change had something to do with being an outsider in a foreign land.

Your description of Icelandic patriotism is very much like what I've found in most countries I've visited. Often it is covert, but palpable.

I am not intimidated or angered by the patriotism of other nations. In fact, my own love of country allows me to better understand and appreciate patriotism in others.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

guyy

I was born in a certain country. I didn't choose it. It was there when i emerged. I could have just as well emerged somewhere else. Why should i be proud of this particular circumstance?

I don't get it.

shesus

We are born into many things. Under that thought, why do you have to love your parents? Why care about your extended family?

I find that thinking depressing because it seems like a helpless state. It's true that a person was born in a specific area, but that doesn't mean you can't have pride or lack thereof.

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

The_Jazz

Interesting. The more local the area, the more likely I am to take pride in it. I'm exceedingly proud of some of the guys that I grew up with and of my neighborhood. I'm sort of proud of my high school - not many best selling authors AND starting NFL quartbacks come out of schools who average about 100 members of a graduating class. My city has it's ups and downs. The state I grew up in ranks ahead of Mississippi in education, which I guess is nice. And my country, well, let's just say that we've got a longer history of picking the greater of two evils than not.

I have a serious problem with enforced patriotism. I find it moronic that the National Anthem is sung before sporting events (interestingly I give baseball a pass on that because there are some historical roots to it - I'm not claiming consistency). I find the whole "American, love it or leave it" dogma a potential clue to mental retardation - not all accolytes of that school of thought are, but enough are to form a majority.

I have a difficult relationship with Patriotism vs. patriotism. The former is probably best shown in the commercialisation of the flag and the companies that took advantage of the post 9/11 furor. I find the latter to be generally underspoken. I am violently opposed to the former, to the point that I now go out of my way to avoid wearing the flag, especially in pin form (by the way, wearing the flag as an article of clothing is both disrespectful and potentially illegal in my book, flag patches excepted). I do not wear red, white and blue on the Fourth of July. I will display it in front of my house, but only if the sun is shining.

Honestly, I find American Patriots boorish, juvenille and a small step away from any brand of zealot you want to name - Nazi, Communist, etc. A Patriot wants everyone to know that he "thinks right" and "loves his country, do or die". A patriot doesn't care what anyone else thinks and just does what he thinks is right.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo