Ranked: The Ugly Tourist 2008 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 07-06-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

View: Most Obnoxious Tourists? The French
Source: Time
posted with the TFP thread generator

Most Obnoxious Tourists? The French
Friday, Jul. 04, 2008
Most Obnoxious Tourists? The French
By Bruce Crumley / Paris

Remember the tightwad tourist whose baggy shorts, frequent complaining and shouted questions about why none of the locals spoke any English made the ugly American the world's Visitor From Hell? Well, it's time for Archie Bunker to move over and make way for Petulant Pierre. According to a recent international survey, the French are now considered the most obnoxious tourists from European nations, and behind only Indians and the last-place Chinese as the worst among all countries worldwide. And it's not only the rest of the world that have a gripe with the Gallic attitude: the French also finished second to last among nations ranking the popularity of its own tourists who vacation at home.

But it's the unflattering image being reflected from abroad that may give pause to the millions of French travelers now heading off to summer vacation destinations across the globe. Will that move them to improve behavior the poll characterized as impolite, prone to loud carping and inattentive to local customs? If so, that's just the start: the study also describes the voyageur français as often unwilling or unable to communicate in foreign languages, and particularly disinclined to spending money when they don't have to — including on those non compris tips. Over all, French travelers landed 19th out of 21 nations worldwide, far behind the first-place Japanese, considered most polite, quiet and tidy. Following the Japanese as most-liked tourists were the Germans, British and Canadians. Americans finished in 11th place alongside the Thais.

The survey was carried out among employees in 4,000 hotels in Germany, the U.K., Italy, France, Canada and the U.S. for the French travel website Expedia.fr. The study asked respondents to rank clients by nationality on criteria of general attitude, politeness, tendency to complain, willingness to speak local languages, interest in sampling local cuisine, readiness to spend money, generosity, cleanliness, discretion and elegance. Many replies simply conformed to long-established reputations: Italians, for example, were deemed most style-conscious, and the French the best-dressed tourists.

American tourists fared well in some surprising ways: despite being notoriously language-limited, for example, they top the list of tourists credited with trying to speak local languages the most, with the French, Chinese, Japanese, Italians and Russians coming in last in the local language rankings. Does that mean Americans are the most polyglot tourists on the planet? Maybe not, says Expedia's marketing director for Europe, Timothée de Roux, who notes the poll's focus on hotel operators may explain the counter-intuitive outcome.

"Most hotel staffs around the world speak English, meaning they'll communicate far more easily with native English-speaking American or British clients than with French or Italians who — it's true — are pretty bad with foreign languages," de Roux says.

De Roux explains how external factors similarly account for why Americans wind up as the biggest-spending and best-tipping tourists, while Germans and the French are among the worst penny-pinchers. "Our findings show the average French employee will get 37 vacation days spread over seven trips in 2008, versus 14 for an American — who won't even take them all," de Roux believes. "That means the French tourist will more tightly budget his or her spending over more trips, while the American spends freely on the one or two vacations taken all year."

By contrast, poll finds the French and Americans similar in being perceived as critical and rude when they travel — though for different reasons. The same local attractions that make France the world's top destination for 92 million foreign visitors each year, says de Roux, also explains why over 85% of French vacation in-country — and wind up spoiled by it when they leave. "When they go abroad, French travellers demand the same quality they'd get at home,? de Roux says. "Americans, by contrast, demand the same exceptional service they are used to at home, which is why they rank as the loudest, most inclined to complain, and among the least polite."

Every year we hear of who's ranked the highest and the lowest, blah blah blah. We've hashed out the tip that don't happen in the US by foreigners.

I don't interact with many tourists aside from having to walk around them or through them as they stand in the middle of the sidewalk, top of the escalator, in front of the turnstile. I can't tell where they are from more often than not, but they range all colors and all languages I can pick up.

When we travel, I'm not sure what the impression is, but I know that we don't interact with many other tourist as we like to go off the beaten paths and find outselves surrounded by locals. We try to be polite, try to speak in the local language as best as we can when reading menus and directions. Again, I'm not so sure what the impression or impact is because we travel on shoulder season either before or after the masses of tourists come to town.

Right now we're trying to figure out where to go next, Mexico, Spain, Tunisia were on the short list. Not really sure what we'll do to be the tourist this year.

Randerolf · 07-06-2008, 08:50 AM

I waited on a lovely couple from the UK last night. The woman told me that it was difficult to find white zinfandel across the pond. They were traveling to beautiful Hilton Head, South Carolina.

Living in a burgeoning city, it's always a pleasure to show hospitality to foreign guests.

When I spent sometime overseas, I was disappointed in my fellow Americans in that many of them were critical of "weird food" or "backwards" practices.

As far as our tour guide in Beijing, she shared that she didn't like Spoiler: a sensitive nationality due to being cheap.

By the way, I loved visiting New York in February; you live in a great city, Cynthetiq.

Willravel · 07-06-2008, 09:05 AM

Why leave France? You've got some of the best beaches in Europe, the most famous capital, plenty of history, great food, etc.

percy · 07-06-2008, 09:09 AM

It is nice to see that Canada is high on the list. It is interesting to see that the French are the most rude. I wonder if Canada's ranking is negatively affected at all by our 25% French Canadian population when they travel.

Unless if the French Canadians are different when travelling abroad, they can be downright impolite by demanding it is their God given right to speak their language unconditionally at all times, and everyone should learn French just to appease that desire.

Funny also is the Brits high standing. Maybe I'm just confusing impolite with pompous. And the Japanese. That from my perspective is deserved. They are always happy and polite, and their little kids are so gosh darn cute.

Willravel · 07-06-2008, 09:15 AM

Can Californians be separate from the rest of the country?

Tully Mars · 07-06-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Can Californians be separate from the rest of the country?

No, just you... you're special.

I wonder where Italians are on the list, Maybe I didn't read the article through very well but I only saw where they ranked regarding language.

My hotel owning friend can't stand Italian tourists. A topic which ironically came up when we were discussing how we agreed everyone should be judged based on their individual traits and not their nationality. He said he's turned away several Italians over the years simply because they were jerks while trying to check-in. He suddenly realizes he doesn't have any rooms open. He said he always sends them to one of his competitors he doesn't care much for, who's an aunt of his (I didn't ask.)

We were also discussing my then Italian neighbors who I thought/think are jerks. They freaking complain about everything and seemingly think everyone is out to rip them off.

Grasshopper Green · 07-06-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I wonder where Italians are on the list, Maybe I didn't read the article through very well but I only saw where they ranked regarding language.

My hotel owning friend can't stand Italian tourists. A topic which ironically came up when we were discussing how we agreed everyone should be judged based on their individual traits and not their nationality. He said he's turned away several Italians over the years simply because they were jerks while trying to check-in. He suddenly realizes he doesn't have any rooms open. He said he always sends them to one of his competitors he doesn't care much for, who's an aunt of his (I didn't ask.)

We were also discussing my then Italian neighbors who I thought/think are jerks. They freaking complain about everything and seemingly think everyone is out to rip them off.

I find this ironic simply because of all the places hubby has traveled, he disliked Italy most. He really didn't care for Rome at all and said many of the Romans he met were out to rip off Americans.

dlish · 07-06-2008, 10:51 AM

did i forget to mention that ill be Istanbul Tukey in 3 weeks time??!!?!

get ready for another Gday from _____ Thread very soon!

BadNick · 07-06-2008, 02:29 PM

It seems that a high percentage of French Canadians I encounter at various eastern shore resort towns are exceptionally rude and crude. I've heard other people around here say the same thing.

Tully Mars · 07-06-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNick

It seems that a high percentage of French Canadians I encounter at various eastern shore resort towns are exceptionally rude and crude. I've heard other people around here say the same thing.

I know the Italian-Canadian neighbors I had over the past winter hated French-Canadian especially the folks from Quebec. Then again they seemingly hated everyone, so??

host · 07-06-2008, 03:10 PM

From the OP article:

Quote:

"Our findings show the average French employee will get 37 vacation days spread over seven trips in 2008, versus 14 for an American — who won't even take them all,....

....The same local attractions that make France the world's top destination for 92 million foreign visitors each year,.....

The French are significantly more productive per capita, than Americans, they are more successful at controlling the dominance of the wealthy over every one else, than the bulk of the population in the US has been, and they live in a country more popular with tourists than we do....so it's hard not to admire them and give them credit where it is due....and to ask each other in the US, WTF is wrong with us? Why are we so lacking in employer and government provided benefits, in leisure time, and in financial and social security for our families, especially in time of unforseen and unplanned crisis, like sudden serious illness? Why have we so cooperatively ceded so much of what the average man in French enjoys, to the wealthiest and most powerful? Some of us even take satisfaction in the way things are here. Did I mention that the French enjoy balanced trade, while we borrow $800 billion per year to finance our imports?

Quote:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...KTtGQD91N6HI01
Travel experts: US share of foreign tourists slips

By OSKAR GARCIA – July 4, 2004
LAS VEGAS (AP) — Despite the weak U.S. dollar, a boom in international travel around the world hasn't translated into an explosion of foreign tourists to the United States.

Explanations range from post-9/11 security headaches and lower airfares elsewhere to poor marketing by the U.S. Whatever the cause, travel industry experts say the U.S. is missing an opportunity to make up for the shortfall in domestic tourism caused by high fuel prices.

At Heli USA Airways, one of several operators that whisk visitors on aerial tours of the Las Vegas Strip and nearby Grand Canyon, vice president of marketing and sales John Power said the faltering U.S. economy and competition from other countries are crimping business.

"Right now, there's some other worldwide destinations that are taking some of the marketplace," said Power.

According to the U.N. World Tourism Organization, the United States had 51 million international visitors in 2000, more than 7 percent of the 682 million international arrivals worldwide. But as international arrivals worldwide jumped to 846 million in 2006, the U.S. saw roughly the same number of visitors as it used to — dropping its share to 6 percent.

The U.S. share of international tourism dollars has slipped too, though the U.S. still drew more money than any other single country in 2006 and more than it did in 2000. From 16 percent of the market in 2000, or $82.4 billion, the U.S. took in 12 percent of the $733 billion worldwide tourism market, or $86 billion in 2006.

Major destinations such as Los Angeles, Orlando, San Francisco, Miami, Honolulu, Las Vegas, Chicago, Washington, D.C., and Boston all saw 20 percent to 34 percent fewer travelers in 2006 compared with 2000. Of the top 10 cities, only New York saw more visitors in 2006 than in 2000, with a 9 percent increase to 6.2 million arrivals, according to the U.S. Commerce Department.

Nearly 26 million people traveled to the United States from overseas in 2000. But that dropped drastically after 9/11, according to data from the U.S. Commerce Department's Office of Travel & Tourism Industries. The number bottomed out in 2003 with 18 million overseas visitors, and with 24 million last year still had not returned to previous levels. The figures do not include visitors from Canada and Mexico, whose numbers are up substantially from 2000 but who tend to spend less than other international travelers to the U.S.

Part of the problem is the perception of frosty U.S. attitudes toward foreigners starting at customs, said Roger Dow, president of the Travel Industry Association. That and other factors make it difficult to attract more overseas travelers.

The U.S. should decode its complex entry rules and boost staffing at customs checkpoints, Dow and others said.

"The perception is in spades that we're less welcoming" than other countries, he said.

Vivian Dapal of EuroUSA, a travel agency that caters to groups from Europe, Asia and the Middle East, and Theresa Belpusi, who promotes Washington, D.C., with Destination DC, said American airports are particularly confusing.

"I don't think that people are questioning that we're trying to get our arms around security," Belpusi said. But she said the government should communicate better with "the people that are probably affected the most" — the tourists.

Frequent U.S. visitor George Somerville, of Glasgow, Scotland, said international flights are generally cheaper to places other than the United States.

"In the last 12 months, destinations my colleagues have traveled to include China twice, Singapore, India and Thailand," he said. "Much of that is to do with the price of flights — Air Asia, Emirates and Singapore airlines are doing great deals from the U.K."

Somerville, 40, called customs here a "daunting prospect" that requires fingerprints and retinal scans.

Some in the travel industry also blame how the U.S. markets itself abroad.

Paula Bohaty, a group travel manager for the Nebraska Division of Travel & Tourism, said the industry would benefit from marketing smaller destinations that foreign travelers aren't familiar with and from pitching experiences foreign travelers find novel — like working on a farm.

Top destination cities are spending millions to promote themselves abroad and often compete with one another for foreign visitors, meaning less-obvious destinations with smaller marketing budgets have trouble being heard.

The industry is pushing a bill that would impose a fee on overseas travelers — to be matched by the industry, for about $200 million in all — to fund marketing to foreign visitors and communication of U.S. visa rules. Dow said other countries already do the same.

"It's public diplomacy on the cheap," he said.

The bill has been referred to a House subcommittee and is awaiting a vote in the Senate.

Meantime, Power said his Las Vegas tour company would continue pushing for foreign travelers, but he called on all players to step up.

"Whose customers are they really? Is it the airline, is it the hotel they stay at, is it the sightseeing operator that they go to do an experience with, is it the car rental company?" Power asked. "Ultimately, they're everybody's, and everybody's got to be on the same page."

shesus · 07-06-2008, 03:12 PM

Last year, we went to the Grand Canyon. There was a very odd French family there. The father daughter relationship was a bit creepy and the other people in the group were rude.

Generally, I'm not a fan of tourist behavior, at least in Chicago. I'm sure the majority are fine, but it seems that there are the ones that have the mentality that they are on vacation so fuck everyone else. Which equates to, I'm going to be loud and obnoxious or take up the whole sidewalk and 'gawk and walk' because I haven't seen buildings this tall before. Plus, they're under the assumption that since they're in a city and city people are rude they must be that way to fit in... Nice, love that attitude.

uncle phil · 07-06-2008, 03:20 PM

i've never been anyplace...how does one act someplace else?

JumpinJesus · 07-06-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle phil

i've never been anyplace...how does one act someplace else?

Never the same way they act anywhere else.

telekinetic · 07-06-2008, 03:53 PM

Yay stereotypes! Yay!

Charlatan · 07-06-2008, 03:58 PM

We get a lot of tourists here but most of them are Asian so I can't tell if they are being more or less obnoxious than ordinary as I am not familiar with the various Asian stereotypes (can you tell me how a Burmese tourist differs from a Philippino one?).

I do see a number of western tourists here, and have helped any number of them find their way. They have ranged from backpackers to business travellers and they have all been rather pleasant. Perhaps the greater distance to get here keeps bar high in terms of quality of tourist.

uncle phil · 07-06-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

From the OP article:

The French are significantly more productive per capita, than Americans, they are more successful at controlling the dominance of the wealthy over every one else, than the bulk of the population in the US has been, and they live in a country more popular with tourists than we do....so it's hard not to admire them and give them credit where it is due....and to ask each other in the US, WTF is wrong with us? Why are we so lacking in employer and government provided benefits, in leisure time, and in financial and social security for our families, especially in time of unforseen and unplanned crisis, like sudden serious illness? Why have we so cooperatively ceded so much of what the average man in French enjoys, to the wealthiest and most powerful? Some of us even take satisfaction in the way things are here. Did I mention that the French enjoy balanced trade, while we borrow $800 billion per year to finance our imports?

methinks the intent of this thread is not political, thank you very much...

Tully Mars · 07-06-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

We get a lot of tourists here but most of them are Asian so I can't tell if they are being more or less obnoxious than ordinary as I am not familiar with the various Asian stereotypes (can you tell me how a Burmese tourist differs from a Philippino one?).

I do see a number of western tourists here, and have helped any number of them find their way. They have ranged from backpackers to business travellers and they have all been rather pleasant. Perhaps the greater distance to get here keeps bar high in terms of quality of tourist.

I think the closeness of my local to the US and Canada creates an opposite effect, so I think you could be onto something there. The stuff the tourist do and say here blows me away. Some of my favorites are "How much is that in real money?" and "This would be a nice beach if it weren't for all the Mexicans."

But I have to admit I've said and done some pretty stupid things while on vacation, hopefully not as bad as the ones I've posted above. I think it's easy to just put your brain in sleep mode while vacationing. Kind of like for 48 weeks out of the year you're "on duty," suddenly you're not. Suddenly you're carefree... and it shows.

I was at Yellowstone National Park one time and heard a lady ask a ranger "what time at night do you put the animals away?" I thought she was joking, she wasn't.

Destrox · 07-06-2008, 05:38 PM

Oddly enough from my retail working years in a region that gets A LOT of Canadian traffic, I would have no problem saying my least favorite group of people were the French-Canadians.

They are loud. They are rude. They are fucking messy.

Then they act like they don't speak English around you, but 10 seconds late you hear them speaking it to their friends. Fuck em'

And this goes for a lot of them that I've met over the years.

Also whats with the Jamaica-Canadians? They are like your ghetto of Canada. They come over on these bus trips for mass-retail shopping.

I am so glad I'm done with that. They were worse than your French, or could be of the same. They were always around each other.

My fav?

Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Hispanic/Latinos.

Tully Mars · 07-06-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destrox

Also whats with the Jamaica-Canadians? They are like your ghetto of Canada. They come over on these bus trips for mass-retail shopping.

Still? You'd think with the C dollar and the US dollar being so equal there wouldn't be any point.

MSD · 07-06-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Can Californians be separate from the rest of the country?

Yes. In fact, I'd like to saw it off and let it float away,

host · 07-06-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle phil

methinks the intent of this thread is not political, thank you very much...

From the thread OP:

Quote:

......"Our findings show the average French employee will get 37 vacation days spread over seven trips in 2008, versus 14 for an American — who won't even take them all,".....

The entire Op article is political...from the disparity in the amount of vacation time, to this, also in the OP:

Quote:

...The same local attractions that make France the world's top destination for 92 million foreign visitors each year, says de Roux, also explains why over 85% of French vacation in-country — and wind up spoiled by it when they leave....

The French clearly enjoy superiority in quality of living....the article highlights that....to ignore it is what.....???? Is your point to ignore this superiority, and is ignoring it, not political, too? The article is correct.....something is wrong, but "the French behaving badly" is only one small dimension of what is wrong.

The French may be arrogant, and folks in the hospitality industry may be bothered by how they behave. Why is it not appropriate to react to and discuss the other, possibly even more interesting and significant information in the OP article? France is "the" destination, of all vacation destinations in the world, despite the impediment of a very strong currency (expensive) now in France. Why is that?

I tried to show reasons for that, by sharing an article describing the decline in foreign tourism to the US. The French enjoy the most vacation days, why is that.....what does it mean? The article mentions how few vacation days Americans, on average, get....and it states that Americans do not even "take" all of those many fewer days....why is that?

Destrox · 07-06-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Still? You'd think with the C dollar and the US dollar being so equal there wouldn't be any point.

In Pa, USA:

No sales tax on clothes, shoes, and other essential items.

And what is taxed is only 6%

Tully Mars · 07-06-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

From the thread OP:

The entire Op article is political...from the disparity in the amount of vacation time, to this, also in the OP:

The French clearly enjoy superiority in quality of living....the article highlights that....to ignore it is what.....???? Is your point to ignore this superiority, and is ignoring it, not political, too? The article is correct.....something is wrong, but "the French behaving badly" is only one small dimension of what is wrong.

The French may be arrogant, and folks in the hospitality industry may be bothered by how they behave. Why is it not appropriate to react to and discuss the other, possibly even more interesting and significant information in the OP article? France is "the" destination, of all vacation destinations in the world, despite the impediment of a very strong currency (expensive) now in France. Why is that?

I tried to show reasons for that, by sharing an article describing the decline in foreign tourism to the US. The French enjoy the most vacation days, why is that.....what does it mean? The article mentions how few vacation days Americans, on average, get....and it states that Americans do not even "take" all of those many fewer days....why is that?

The political issues you quoted are in the OP or in the article linked to the OP?

I read the OP and I see a topic and a discussion of how tourists from differing nationalities are perceived by their host nationalities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destrox

In Pa, USA:

No sales tax on clothes, shoes, and other essential items.

And what is taxed is only 6%

Makes sense I guess. Wonder how many actually end up saving anything? I mean by the time they pay travel costs?

host · 07-06-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

The political issues you quoted are in the OP or in the article linked to the OP?

I read the OP and I see a topic and a discussion of how tourists from differing nationalities are perceived by their host nationalities.

Part of what you see are the comments of people who are employed in the service of the French tourists who they are complaining about. French tourists who enjoy much more vacation time and benefits than the people working to serve them, who are the judges of their behavior, as far as the "findings" in the article are concerned.....

Not exactly impartial opinions of the conduct and attitude of the French tourists, at least from the way the information gathering included in the OP was obtained.

How is it that people of a country who are described and predicted to act so offensively when they travel, are the same people who vacation at home 85 percent of the time they are vacationing, are afforded ten percent of the entire calendar year as vacation days, and mostly vacation right alongside the huge influx of foreign tourists to their country? If the French are so objectionable, why is the rest of the world coming to their country in record numbers, to vacation alongside the natives of France?

Cynthetiq · 07-06-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

From the OP article:

The French are significantly more productive per capita, than Americans, they are more successful at controlling the dominance of the wealthy over every one else, than the bulk of the population in the US has been, and they live in a country more popular with tourists than we do....so it's hard not to admire them and give them credit where it is due....and to ask each other in the US, WTF is wrong with us? Why are we so lacking in employer and government provided benefits, in leisure time, and in financial and social security for our families, especially in time of unforseen and unplanned crisis, like sudden serious illness? Why have we so cooperatively ceded so much of what the average man in French enjoys, to the wealthiest and most powerful? Some of us even take satisfaction in the way things are here. Did I mention that the French enjoy balanced trade, while we borrow $800 billion per year to finance our imports?

While that may be the interest you have, the other posters in this thread do not seem to see the same connection.

If this is how you view the world, I guess it's a sad world since you cannot enjoy the simplest of things and understand nor appreciate them for their simplicity.

Sometimes a simple setting of wine and cheese is just wine and cheese, not a metaphor or apparent discussion of Appellation d’origine contrôlée and how the government regulation creates hindrences to the small farmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

From the thread OP:

The entire Op article is political...from the disparity in the amount of vacation time, to this, also in the OP:

The French clearly enjoy superiority in quality of living....the article highlights that....to ignore it is what.....???? Is your point to ignore this superiority, and is ignoring it, not political, too? The article is correct.....something is wrong, but "the French behaving badly" is only one small dimension of what is wrong.

The French may be arrogant, and folks in the hospitality industry may be bothered by how they behave. Why is it not appropriate to react to and discuss the other, possibly even more interesting and significant information in the OP article? France is "the" destination, of all vacation destinations in the world, despite the impediment of a very strong currency (expensive) now in France. Why is that?

I tried to show reasons for that, by sharing an article describing the decline in foreign tourism to the US. The French enjoy the most vacation days, why is that.....what does it mean? The article mentions how few vacation days Americans, on average, get....and it states that Americans do not even "take" all of those many fewer days....why is that?

If it was to be a discussion on politics, then it would have been placed in the politics forum. It was placed in general discussion because well, it's a general discussion on the idea of the Ugly Tourist, not the Geopolitical Tourist or the Political Tourist Destinations.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" -Abraham Maslow

Maybe you need a couple more tools.

I just have to ask, when someone talks to you about the weather do you reply with some sort of geopolitical rant about how the industiralized nations are creating acid rain and polluting the estuaries and watersheds? Or is is just as simple as, "It's rainy weather we're having lately."

I doubt that the French Muslims that live in the ghettos of Paris that rioted in 2005 and again in 2007 enjoy that same wealth and prosperity.

Ninth Nights of Riots NYtimes.com 2005 click to show

Quote:

View: Immigrant Rioting Flares in France for Ninth Night
Source: NYTimes
posted with the TFP thread generator

Immigrant Rioting Flares in France for Ninth Night
November 5, 2005
Immigrant Rioting Flares in France for Ninth Night
By CRAIG S. SMITH
AULNAY-SOUS-BOIS, France, Nov. 4 - France's worst urban violence in a decade exploded for a ninth night on Friday as bands of youths roamed the immigrant-heavy, working-class suburbs of Paris, setting fire to dozens of cars and buildings while the government struggled over the violence and the underlying frustrations fueling it.

The unrest, which has also spread to other parts of France with large North African and Arab populations, prompted the American and Russian governments to warn citizens visiting Paris to avoid its poor, outlying neighborhoods. France reduced train service to Charles de Gaulle Airport after two trains became targets of rioters earlier in the week.

A handicapped woman riding a bus in the Sevran suburb suffered burns over 20 percent of her body Thursday night after two youths doused the inside of the bus with a flammable liquid and set it on fire. Youths have also burned cars in Dijon, in the east, and in Marseille, in the south.

The violence has isolated the country's tough-talking, anticrime interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, whom some people blame for having worsened the situation with his blunt statements about "cleaning out" the "thugs" from those neighborhoods.

France has been grappling for years with growing unrest among its second- and third-generation immigrants, mostly North African Arabs, who have faced decades of high unemployment and marginalization. Critics say Mr. Sarkozy's confrontational approach has polarized the communities and the government.

"It's a game that has been started between the youth and Sarkozy," said a French-Algerian man wearing Chanel sunglasses outside Aulnay's mosque, in a converted warehouse. He would give his name only as Nabil. "Until he quits," he said, "it's not going to get better."

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin met Friday afternoon with more than a dozen youths from troubled neighborhoods at his palatial offices in central Paris, hoping to find a solution to the unrest. He has promised to put in place an "action plan" before the end of the month to improve conditions in the country's poor neighborhoods.

France's foreign minister, Philippe Douste-Blazy, warned Thursday that France risked losing the integration battle in immigrant neighborhoods to radicalization of religious-based movements (diplomatic code for Islamic extremism).

For now, the violence seems to have been the work of unfocused teenagers and young adults without a clear political agenda.

"We see among the rioters kids of 13 to 15, who are swept along, who are encouraged to take all the risks, and the others, the ringleaders, who are used to creating trouble - they terrorize everyone, and don't want to stop," said Franck Cannarozzo, a deputy mayor of Aulnay. "Rather than playing on their Playstations, they attack the police."

The rioting began last week in Clichy-sous-Bois after two teenagers were electrocuted when they hid in an electrical substation from the police. Local youths, who believed the police had chased the boys into the enclosure, took to the streets, setting cars on fire in protest.

This came shortly after Mr. Sarkozy's populist anticrime campaign gathered speed when he declared a "war without mercy" on violence in the working-class suburbs, which were built up during the postwar period to move workers out of the city center and closer to the industrial zones that employed them.

Over the succeeding decades, North African and sub-Saharan immigrants replaced the working-class French who initially populated the neighborhoods. But jobs have dried up as the economy slowed - unemployment in some of the zones is as high as 30 percent - and the suburbs have become the French equivalent of America's inner cities.

While labor immigration tightened in the 1980's, illegal immigration and asylum seekers have kept many of the neighborhoods growing. In 2003, France became the world's leading destination for asylum seekers, surpassing the United States.

Immigration analysts say the current segregation is precursor to an inevitable reshaping of European societies forced to reopen their borders to increase the tax rolls and balance their aging, shrinking populations with immigrants.

Demographic pressures mean North African and sub-Saharan Africans will probably be at the forefront. By many estimates a majority of the 300 million Muslims already living along the Mediterranean's southern rim are under age 20.

Many in those neighborhoods say that they are being stigmatized by the interior minister's campaign and that the increased police presence results in harassment. Even before the deaths that set off the unrest last week, Mr. Sarkozy was pelted with stones and bottles during a highly publicized visit to the Parisian suburb of Argenteuil, where he had gone to outline a new plan to fight crime.

But Mr. Sarkozy has refused to back down, calling for "firmness and justice" in the face of the violence.

His stance has worsened a split in the governing Union for a Popular Majority party between his supporters and those of Mr. Villepin. Both men are vying to become the party's presidential candidate in 2007.

The opposition Socialists, deeply divided since earlier this year over a failed effort to ratify a European constitution, have been quick to capitalize on the unrest, accusing the governing party of neglecting the plight of the disenfranchised French-Arab and French-African youth.

On Thursday, the Interior Ministry released a report on the deaths that touched off the newest rioting, asserting that a third boy who survived the incident had said he and his friends were not being chased and were aware of the danger when they entered the substation enclosure. The report suggested that the boys were hiding from the police because one of those who died had a record of armed robbery and the other was part of a group that had broken into a construction site that evening.

But those points have been lost amid the ensuing violence.

"It's the police who are provoking us," said a bearded man in a white cap and North African robe in Aulnay who would give his name only as Mohamed. "They don't like foreigners."

He said he had moved to France from Algeria in 1971 and lived in the neighborhood for 30 years. All four of his children were born in France, and though he is unemployed, they have all found jobs.

"They say integrate, but I don't understand: I'm already French, what more do they want?" he said. "They want me to drink alcohol?"

Though France has a policy of officially ignoring ethnic differences in favor of French identity, its people have been slow to open their arms to newcomers who are told that they should enjoy the same rights.

"On paper we're all the same, but if your name is Mohamed, even with a good education, you can only find a job as a porter at the airport," said Kader, 23, who works at the airport. He complained that the immigrant suburbs had been neglected by the current government.

While the vast majority of the young people behind the nightly attacks are Muslim, experts and residents warned against seeing the violence through the prism of religion. The cultural divide between these second- and third-generation immigrants and the native French is deeper because they come from Muslim families, but to date the violence has had nothing to do with Islam.

But Islamic radicals recruit in France's troubled neighborhoods, and there is clearly a risk of deepening alienation and anger that could breed more extremism.

Manuel Valls, the mayor of Évry, where dozens of cars have been set afire, said the spreading unrest was more a game of copycats than coordinated action as young people vie to make the evening news. "It's a kind of hit parade by the neighborhoods," he said.

But Mr. Valls said the deeper symptoms of the neighborhoods must be addressed. "Each crisis is bigger, harsher and deeper, more revealing of the failure of our integration model," he said.

80+ Officers hurt in new French riots 2007 click to show

Quote:

View: Police and Protesters Clash Near Paris
Source: NYTimes
posted with the TFP thread generator

Police and Protesters Clash Near Paris
November 28, 2007
Police and Protesters Clash Near Paris
By KATRIN BENNHOLD

Violence in a Paris Suburb November 2007

VILLIERS-LE-BEL, France, Nov. 27 — Dodging rocks and projectiles, the police lined the streets of this tense suburb Tuesday where angry youths have vowed to seek revenge for the deaths of two teenagers who died in a weekend collision with a police car.

Police union officials warned that the violence was escalating into urban guerrilla warfare, with shotguns aimed at officers — a rare sight in the last major outbreak of suburban unrest, in 2005.

More than 80 have been injured so far — four of them as a result of gunfire — and the rage was still simmering Tuesday afternoon. Inside the city hall of Villiers-le-Bel, a group of visiting mayors appealed for calm while police officers dodged rocks outside.

“We are sitting targets,” said Sophie Bar, a local police officer who stood guard outside. “They were throwing rocks at us and it was impossible to see where they came from. They just came raining over the roof.”

The violence was set off by the deaths of two teenagers on a motorbike who were killed in a crash with a police car Sunday night. The scene, with angry youths targeting the police mostly with firebombs, rocks and other projectiles, was reminiscent of three weeks of rioting in 2005.

But senior police officials warned that the violence was more intense this time.

“Things have changed since 2005,” said Joachim Masanet, secretary general of the police wing of the UNSA trade union. “We have crossed a red line. When these kids aim their guns at police officers, they want to kill them. They are no longer afraid to shoot a policeman. We are only on the second day since the accident, and already they are shooting guns at the police.”

Some young men stood by the charred timbers of the town’s police station, laughing and surveying the damage.

Cem, 18, of Turkish origin, declined to give his name because he feared police reprisals. But he and his friend Karim, of Algerian descent, said they both had participated in rioting over the past two days.

“That’s just the beginning,” Cem said. “This is a war. There is no mercy. We want two cops dead.”

Karim added: “The police brought this on themselves. They will regret it.”

Six of the officers hurt in the clashes Monday were in serious condition, according to Francis Debuire, a police union official. Four were wounded by gunfire, including one who lost an eye and another who suffered a shattered shoulder.

The biggest risk, the police say, is that the violence will spread. In 2005, unrest cascaded through more than 300 towns, leaving 10,000 cars burned and 4,700 people arrested.

As night fell in Villiers-le-Bel, the anxiety was evident. Strangers warned people to hide their cellphones because youths were snatching them on the street. People hurried to their homes, while some gathered in knots on street corners. Police helicopters circling public housing developments spotted stockpiles of rocks stacked along the roofs.

Naim Masoud, 39, a teaching assistant in Villiers-le-Bel, said that, in her school, even 8-year-old children talked about racism and discrimination by the police.

“It will take a lot more than riot police to cure this neighborhood,” she said. “These children feel like foreigners. It is inexcusable what they are doing, but the seeds are deep.”

Some of the fiercest clashes Monday took place near a bakery where one of the dead, a 16-year-old known only as Larami because his identity has not been made public, was an apprentice.

Habib Friaa, the owner of the bakery, said Larami had been highly regarded. He was stunned, he added, to learn Monday about his death.

“It’s quite something to say goodbye to somebody on Saturday and learn two days later that he died. We’re like a family here because we’re a small business,” Mr. Friaa said, noting that Larami “was not a delinquent. He was somebody who was learning our profession and he was serious.”

lotsofmagnets · 07-07-2008, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic

Yay stereotypes! Yay!

+1. i host people from all over the world all the time and this is nothing more than stereotyping.

Tully Mars · 07-07-2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotsofmagnets

+1. i host people from all over the world all the time and this is nothing more than stereotyping.

I really do agree with this.

I found it really ironic that during my conversation with my hotel owning friend he would agree whole heartedly with the concept of "people are people, regardless." Then qualify it with "Well, except for the Italians, they're all assholes." I remember thinking "doesn't that completely negate the last ten minutes of our conversation?"

dlish · 07-07-2008, 10:38 AM

90% of the populaton where i liver are either tourists or expats.

learn to live with other people dammit. we all have short comings no matter where we're from.

if you're a dickhead, it matters not where you come from, you're still a cock.

07-06-2008, 08:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
Randerolf Fireball Location: ~	I waited on a lovely couple from the UK last night. The woman told me that it was difficult to find white zinfandel across the pond. They were traveling to beautiful Hilton Head, South Carolina. Living in a burgeoning city, it's always a pleasure to show hospitality to foreign guests. When I spent sometime overseas, I was disappointed in my fellow Americans in that many of them were critical of "weird food" or "backwards" practices. As far as our tour guide in Beijing, she shared that she didn't like Spoiler: a sensitive nationality due to being cheap. By the way, I loved visiting New York in February; you live in a great city, Cynthetiq. Last edited by Randerolf; 07-06-2008 at 08:54 AM..

07-06-2008, 10:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	did i forget to mention that ill be Istanbul Tukey in 3 weeks time??!!?! get ready for another Gday from _____ Thread very soon! __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

07-06-2008, 03:12 PM	#12 (permalink)
shesus Fancy Location: Chicago	Last year, we went to the Grand Canyon. There was a very odd French family there. The father daughter relationship was a bit creepy and the other people in the group were rude. Generally, I'm not a fan of tourist behavior, at least in Chicago. I'm sure the majority are fine, but it seems that there are the ones that have the mentality that they are on vacation so fuck everyone else. Which equates to, I'm going to be loud and obnoxious or take up the whole sidewalk and 'gawk and walk' because I haven't seen buildings this tall before. Plus, they're under the assumption that since they're in a city and city people are rude they must be that way to fit in... Nice, love that attitude. __________________ Whatever did happen to your soul? I heard you sold it Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

07-06-2008, 03:20 PM	#13 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	i've never been anyplace...how does one act someplace else? __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

07-06-2008, 03:53 PM	#15 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	Yay stereotypes! Yay! __________________ twisted no more

07-06-2008, 09:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Why leave France? You've got some of the best beaches in Europe, the most famous capital, plenty of history, great food, etc.

07-06-2008, 09:09 AM	#4 (permalink)
percy Addict	It is nice to see that Canada is high on the list. It is interesting to see that the French are the most rude. I wonder if Canada's ranking is negatively affected at all by our 25% French Canadian population when they travel. Unless if the French Canadians are different when travelling abroad, they can be downright impolite by demanding it is their God given right to speak their language unconditionally at all times, and everyone should learn French just to appease that desire. Funny also is the Brits high standing. Maybe I'm just confusing impolite with pompous. And the Japanese. That from my perspective is deserved. They are always happy and polite, and their little kids are so gosh darn cute.

07-06-2008, 09:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Can Californians be separate from the rest of the country?

07-06-2008, 02:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	It seems that a high percentage of French Canadians I encounter at various eastern shore resort towns are exceptionally rude and crude. I've heard other people around here say the same thing.

07-06-2008, 03:58 PM	#16 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	We get a lot of tourists here but most of them are Asian so I can't tell if they are being more or less obnoxious than ordinary as I am not familiar with the various Asian stereotypes (can you tell me how a Burmese tourist differs from a Philippino one?). I do see a number of western tourists here, and have helped any number of them find their way. They have ranged from backpackers to business travellers and they have all been rather pleasant. Perhaps the greater distance to get here keeps bar high in terms of quality of tourist. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-06-2008, 05:38 PM	#19 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	Oddly enough from my retail working years in a region that gets A LOT of Canadian traffic, I would have no problem saying my least favorite group of people were the French-Canadians. They are loud. They are rude. They are fucking messy. Then they act like they don't speak English around you, but 10 seconds late you hear them speaking it to their friends. Fuck em' And this goes for a lot of them that I've met over the years. Also whats with the Jamaica-Canadians? They are like your ghetto of Canada. They come over on these bus trips for mass-retail shopping. I am so glad I'm done with that. They were worse than your French, or could be of the same. They were always around each other. My fav? Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Hispanic/Latinos. __________________ You bore me.... next.

07-07-2008, 10:38 AM	#29 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	90% of the populaton where i liver are either tourists or expats. learn to live with other people dammit. we all have short comings no matter where we're from. if you're a dickhead, it matters not where you come from, you're still a cock. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy