06-16-2008, 03:01 PM | #81 (permalink) |
Confused Adult
Location: Spokane, WA
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I see someone in this thread trying to rationalize their poor choices and it reminds me much of a serial killer trying to justify stabbing underage girls in the throat.
Seriously, check your mindset. There is no healthy, valid reason for choosing to live the life of an obese person. |
06-16-2008, 03:05 PM | #82 (permalink) | |
Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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Note that taking heroin could also be considered a non-comformist act. Non-conformist does not equate to good.
__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
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06-16-2008, 04:26 PM | #84 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-16-2008, 04:53 PM | #85 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Show me a person who's fat to be a nonconformist. |
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06-16-2008, 05:11 PM | #86 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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He loves to eat, and he doesn't care how many calories it is. He'd rather eat it the right way than the low fat, low calorie way, "No, you can't make popovers that are low fat/low cal that taste any good." He doesn't do anything that's trendy, mass approved, he likes small niche things. He is a nonconformist. He hates Macs, laughs at the 1984 commercial because he believes that all the people in the audience are all Mac users an the face on the screen is Steve Jobs. He doesn't use iPods, prefers Zen. Uses as many products as he can that aren't used by everyone else. He is a nonconformist through and through. I don't know what his tipping point is, but once it's "mainstream" to him, he moves on.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-16-2008, 05:32 PM | #88 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-16-2008, 06:36 PM | #89 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I'd be perfectly okay, actually, with obese people losing the privilege of free health care - provided they lost the responsibility of paying along with that - but beyond that, I can't think of any justifiable penalty. Punish the fake crime by revoking a fake right, I sez. Just to echo, this no-teeth educational legislation seems okay to me. Legislation that's possibly a waste of money, though. (And in other news... yep, sun's setting in a Western direction today.)
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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06-16-2008, 07:14 PM | #90 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Quote:
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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06-16-2008, 07:27 PM | #92 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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I think you might be romanticizing nonconformity. Are you suggesting nonconformists all need to be culture jammers? They can very well be made up by apathy and little else.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
06-16-2008, 07:42 PM | #94 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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If the convention is to be thin and/or healthy, and the standard is to have a certain BMI, and I simply don't give a shit, this is nonconformity.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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06-16-2008, 07:47 PM | #95 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-16-2008, 07:53 PM | #96 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Nonconformity is simply a refusal, an unwillingness, whether through apathy or not.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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06-16-2008, 07:57 PM | #97 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-16-2008, 08:00 PM | #98 (permalink) |
President Rick
Location: location location
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Some folks just have a hard-on to hate fat people, and deep down could honestly care less about the greater good, health care, etc, blah blah blah. Whether it's because they were a fat kid and overcame it with their iron willpower, or their mom/dad/grandma-pa was fat and died of a heart attack, or maybe some fat guy kicked their puppy, they've got it in their mind that fat people are weak and stupid, and that all it will take is some healthier-than-thou to point this out to them (over and over again), to make them wanna turn their lives around so they in turn can live a full prosperous life berating fat people into thinness.
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This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars. |
06-16-2008, 08:07 PM | #99 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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To conform is to act in accordance or to comply with the norm. The norm is to have that healthy BMI, but I love junk food, hate exercise, and don't care what I look like. Am I conforming to this standard of health? If not, what am I doing instead? What is the opposite to conformity? If I'm not conforming, I'm a nonconformist—a nonconformist who refuses to be bound by a certain set of parameters. Whether this is by accident doesn't matter. Your understanding of "nonconformity" is a specific (i.e. limited) usage and only applies within a certain context. You might want to use it here, but it would be more accurate for you to say that fat people aren't being activists if they are apathetic to the issue. And it would be true; they aren't likely steeped in fat activism in this case.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 06-16-2008 at 08:09 PM.. |
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06-16-2008, 08:26 PM | #100 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-16-2008, 09:23 PM | #101 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Also, Schrödinger's big-boned. You're using nonconformity to describe intent, while Baraka is using it to describe action. I can understand your use, but I don't understand your dismissal of Baraka's use.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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06-16-2008, 09:25 PM | #102 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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I think there should be an incentive to lose weight and live a healthy lifestyle. If that means a fine for not exercising and eating natural foods, then so be it.
I would even go one step further and say if 14-15 years olds are overweight, they should get sent to a boot camp type of environment for 6-12 weeks over the summer. It might be hell for them, but their attitude development and increased self-esteem in high school will effect the rest of their lives. |
06-17-2008, 06:04 AM | #103 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Orlando, Florida
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06-17-2008, 07:29 AM | #105 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Orlando, Florida
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Last edited by Terrell; 06-17-2008 at 07:32 AM.. |
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06-17-2008, 07:37 AM | #106 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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BTW, would you still whine about your personal freedom to be unhealthy if you were paying like 35% of your current medical coverage? |
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06-17-2008, 07:51 AM | #107 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Nanny-state policies and regulations are often beneficial to the overall efficiency of the nation. I don't see much problem with that. In a way, it's like legislating a major part of the social contract—a moving force behind the enactment of it, if you will.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
06-17-2008, 07:55 AM | #108 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Somewhere... Across the sea...
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There are some things you are missing about Japanese society and culture that will allow this to work. It will probably give a lot of Japanese workers more quality of life than less.
First, the Japanese are not typically obese. In spite of many "bad" habits health-wise, such as smoking and drinking to excess on a regular basis, being fat isn't such a big problem. But it could be, and that's what the government aims to head off at the pass. By raising awareness to the possibility of the problems and burdens related to being overweight, they are promoting a more fit society. "Metabo bad, fit good". The social pressure here will give this program a high chance at success. Second, business is one of the reasons that there is any problem with weight. Employees often work from 8AM to 10PM or more. Regular employees feel a high sense of guilt if they leave before the boss, therefore they don't. They will wile away several hours with "busy" work until the boss calls it a night. There is a term here that roughly translates to "death by overwork," and there are more than 4000 claims made against companies yearly for this. These employees often eat at their desk, get food from vending machines or convenience stores, or at the fast food places. They are sedentary, with little time to spend at the gym. By putting a financial incentive on the companies, the government will improve the quality of life of employees because companies will make sure that they have the chance to eat healthier food, and get away form their desk for an hour a day or more to exercise. Third, this is not a culture of conformity. It is a culture of shame. People don't conform because they want to, but rather because they don't want to risk embarrassing their family or company by bad behavior. No-one wants to be the one who cost the company money, or lowered their co-workers bonuses. It would be shameful, and would result in the end of promotions and advancement for the worker in question, not to mention the shunning of said employee within the company. Every year we are required to take two health check-ups courtesy of the company and the health system. Hospitals have special buses that they drive to the company that are fully equipped to perform these checks. After age 35, this check includes a yearly cancer screening. It also includes chest x-rays, blood analysis and urine analysis to turn up health problems associated with smoking and drinking in their earliest stages, when they are more likely to be treated quickly and successfully, and most of all, more cheaply than if they were discovered in a more progressed stage. There is some truth to the idea that no-one wants to be a burden to society and all the others paying into the system, but that is a rather minor consideration in the big picture, which is why the Gov't took the approach they did instead of exhorting those that are sick to suicide to relieve the burden.
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The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference. "God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO |
06-17-2008, 07:57 AM | #109 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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I seem to remember awhile back when 'single payer healthcare' was the topic, that it would only be a matter of time when congress, who will be the guarantor or healthcare payments, would regulate such things as how big or small one can be and if one is outside that specified body size, then diet would be regulated.
Do you people truly want some outside entity controlling all aspects of your life? Are you that desirous of ridding yourselves of all responsibility for your actions that you would cede control of your decision making to government legislation?
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
06-17-2008, 08:08 AM | #110 (permalink) | ||
Insane
Location: Orlando, Florida
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The government in such a case have assumed the role of parents and are treating the citizenry (free adults) as if they are children and are telling them what they can or cannot eat, what they should or should not weigh. This is not something that the government of any free society should do. What's next are they going to tell the people that they're grounded or cannot have their allowance if they don't eat their vegetables. Quote:
I don't want the state telling me or anyone else what to eat or in what quantities, whether or not to use drugs, which consenting woman to have sex with, which books to read, which political philosophies to believe, when to go to bed, when or whether to get married, to have sex outside or marriage or not, with or without a condom, to have children or not (I'm childfree), whether or not to get a vasectomy (or for the ladies a tubal), whether or not to use contraceptives, whether or not to have an abortion (for the ladies), or what religion I should believe in. When it comes to personal decisions, my personal philosophy is that the government should have NO, ZERO, ZIP ZILCH authority in those areanas to make decisions, and should butt out as far as adults are concerned. |
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06-17-2008, 08:49 AM | #111 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Terrell, you'd not like to live in a libertarian world. Paying $200 a month for police and firefighter insurance, paying a monthly fee for a private contractor to fix roads between your house and work, paying $20 to mail a letter to a friend who can't afford a computer because Microsoft created a monopoly...
But back to reality, Japan isn't libertarian. Japan's people aren't libertarians. This thread isn't about libertarianism at all, it's about the Japanese and how well this system could work for them. |
06-17-2008, 09:01 AM | #112 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Orlando, Florida
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I support such services as Police, Firefighting, public roads, military, Postal service, public schools, or laws against people violating the person, property or rights of non-consenting 3rd parties. None of those things are affected, however by whether or not I get married, believe in Christianity, have children, engage in pre-marital sex, get or don't get a vasectomy, have a waisline of a certain size, have or don't have a particular BMI, or most other intimite personal decisions. (I wish I could remember where that thought left off) Last edited by Terrell; 06-17-2008 at 03:02 PM.. |
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06-17-2008, 10:34 AM | #114 (permalink) | |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
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And Ratman, I really appreciate your post. I think that's one of the problems with this thread--people don't fully grasp how different Japanese society is from our own.
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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
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06-17-2008, 03:50 PM | #115 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Seriously, governments can't even balance their own checkbooks or distribute welfare and social services in a fair manner or even in a manner that it was written by law, yet we want them to take care of our diet?
It never ceases to amaze me the shit government can fuck up, but what's more amazing is the people who want to give even more power to these failures. I think some of you need a reality check.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
06-17-2008, 04:27 PM | #117 (permalink) |
Wise-ass Latino
Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA
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I want to see this ranking list.
__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator |
06-17-2008, 04:48 PM | #119 (permalink) |
Wise-ass Latino
Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA
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Can you give us something a bit more current? A lot has changed in the last eight years, ya know.
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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator |
06-17-2008, 04:53 PM | #120 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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I support your right to do whatever you want, including eating all you want. But, the government currently just tells you of the health problems (and should also tell you about the social/emotional problems as well). But there isn't any incentive currently for people to live a healthy lifestyle, and with the health care problems that will happen a few years from now, the people who choose to eat what they want and put off exercise should be financially penalized. It may give a few people incentives to not work 5 more hours a week, but exercise or eat a balanced home-cooked meal instead.
How would you feel if the private health care companies started charging people by the pound? They already have a smoking charge and a female charge. I could see them doing this (if they haven't already) with very little reaction because they are doing it in the shareholders best interests. (it's another debate if private companies would do a better job of helping overweight people lose weight or if the government programs would) |
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fat, japan, legislates |
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