Modern vs Tribal society - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Shauk · 06-10-2008, 06:25 PM

this just amazes me

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...ws-arrows.html

Quote:

Skin painted bright red, heads partially shaved, arrows drawn back in the longbows and aimed square at the aircraft buzzing overhead. The gesture is unmistakable: Stay Away.

Behind the two men stands another figure, possibly a woman, her stance also seemingly defiant. Her skin painted dark, nearly black.

The apparent aggression shown by these people is quite understandable. For they are members of one of Earth's last uncontacted tribes, who live in the Envira region in the thick rainforest along the Brazilian-Peruvian frontier.

Thought never to have had any contact with the outside world, everything about these people is, and hopefully will remain, a mystery.

it's always sobering to remember that there is a world south of the equator... I find it kind of odd that the majority of "civilized" nations lie north of the equator now that I think about it.

hrmph.

Willravel · 06-10-2008, 06:42 PM

*Caption from picture 1*
"Hey Jerry, is that a Boeing C-17A up there?"
"Where?"
"I'll point with my bow"
"OH. Yeah, it's a Boeing C-17A. Wanna go see Iron Man again?"
"Pssh... I dunno, I still haven't seen Indiana Jones."

lotsofmagnets · 06-10-2008, 06:57 PM

true. probably a bunch of kids that went feral over the weekend.

i wonder how long it will take the loggers to reach them

sapiens · 06-10-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

it's always sobering to remember that there is a world south of the equator... I find it kind of odd that the majority of "civilized" nations lie north of the equator now that I think about it.

The diversity of cultures on the planet is interesting. I also agree that it's interesting that many tribal cultures are at or below the equator. However, for some reason the tribal versus modern and uncivilized versus civilized distinctions rub me the wrong way.

Shauk · 06-10-2008, 08:04 PM

thats why it's in quotations.

who's to say we're civilized when we're responsible for waste, pollution, mass genocidal levels of warfare. If you showed these tribals videos of Hiroshima or WWI era "Red Baron"-esque dog fight, they'd be quite within their means to think we're the root of all evil.

Have you seen the ending to 5th element lately. It's emblazoned in my head, it's a powerful message that transcends historic periods, from the dawn of time and well into our future, we'll keep killing each other and giving people reasons to want to kill us.

whoo! thats another topic isn't it

All that aside, I wonder if they like Jungle music

KellyC · 06-10-2008, 09:55 PM

Fascinating, although I'm not sure if reporting their discovery is a good idea if they want the tribe to be left alone. It's like, "hey look what we found...it's RIGHT HERE!!!"

Randerolf · 06-10-2008, 10:20 PM

What happens when oil or other resources are found there?

Another Camisea gas pipeline Peru carve their way into the interior of Peru?

MSD · 06-10-2008, 10:29 PM

It's like screenshots from Diablo II.

highthief · 06-11-2008, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

it's always sobering to remember that there is a world south of the equator... I find it kind of odd that the majority of "civilized" nations lie north of the equator now that I think about it.

Some suggest it has to do with resources, especially agricultural. The only places where large, domesticable beasts of burden exist naturally (horses, cows) is in the north. Many key crops also originated in the north - Australia, for instance, has nary a single good domestic crop, so its no wonder the aborigines remained as hunter-gatherers.

dlish · 06-11-2008, 02:01 AM

i saw this story nearly 2 weeks ago when it broke.

as curious as i am, i tihnk we should let them be. who's to say our civilisation is more civilised or better than anyone elses.

one day there will be no 'uncontacted tribes' and we will regret the day we decided to contact the last one

Shauk · 06-11-2008, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

i saw this story nearly 2 weeks ago when it broke.

as curious as i am, i tihnk we should let them be. who's to say our civilisation is more civilised or better than anyone elses.

one day there will be no 'uncontacted tribes' and we will regret the day we decided to contact the last one

I know, I think it's something that should be preserved. I feel the "civilized" way of life is nothing but fanciful slavery in a way, at times.

they're content being spiritual/primal beings, and us? well imagine putting one of them in a mcdonalds outfit and you can see the absurdity of our corporate ladder. Arguably their way of life is better.

dlish · 06-11-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

Arguably their way of life is better.

i cant say i agree with their way of life being better. ignorance is bliss.

so if we are ignorant and we are missing out on something that they know, it doesnt make them better.

and vice versa - we believe that they are missng out on technology/god/whateve. doesnt make us better.

each to their own.

but in terms of anthropology, i hope they stay untouched as long as possible

sapiens · 06-11-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

I know, I think it's something that should be preserved. I feel the "civilized" way of life is nothing but fanciful slavery in a way, at times.

they're content being spiritual/primal beings, and us? well imagine putting one of them in a mcdonalds outfit and you can see the absurdity of our corporate ladder. Arguably their way of life is better.

Who knows if they're content or spiritual? Can you tell from the photographs? How is it possible to argue that their way of life is better without knowing more about their way of life?

Shauk · 06-11-2008, 02:21 PM

guess it depends on what you value as "Important" in life, and everything in your surroundings that determine that.

I guess the more "base" lifestyle appeals to me for whatever reason.

sapiens · 06-11-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

I guess the more "base" lifestyle appeals to me for whatever reason.

That's cool. I wasn't arguing against that. I'm just not sure that they are more spiritual or more satisfied in their lives than anyone else is. It's hard to tell from pictures. Even if we ignore this particular tribe and consider other tribes in South America (like the Ache or the Yanomamo who I know a bit about), I'm still not certain that their lives are any better. For me, it sounds a bit like "the noble savage".

All that said, the idea of living in small communities with kin and allies with whom you have "tested the bond" does appeal to me.

jorgelito · 06-11-2008, 04:22 PM

That's a big part of it isn't it? The "white man over romanticization" of other cultures? It reminds me of the Orientalism that was so popular back in the day. Also similar to how many white folks want to keep a native population the way they are when in fact that isn't what they may want. For example Tibet: Many Tibetans want flat screen tv's, Nikes etc but the white folks that travel there complain about all the modernization spoiling the authenticity of it all (whatever that means). Really, it's quite patronizing and condescending. So-called primitive life while I'm sure has its benefits, can be quite harsh. Maybe they would like modern comforts instead of running around the jungle in their underwear shooting bows and arrows.

snowy · 06-11-2008, 05:01 PM

It makes me think of the Prime Directive; I think it could definitely apply here.

Baraka_Guru · 06-11-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

For example Tibet: Many Tibetans want flat screen tv's, Nikes etc but the white folks that travel there complain about all the modernization spoiling the authenticity of it all [...]

I thought it was the Chinese.

But a good point. Leaving the tribe alone for the sake of keeping them "intact" for our own egos is a bit strange.

Willravel · 06-11-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

It makes me think of the Prime Directive; I think it could definitely apply here.

Trekker women are hot.

Baraka_Guru · 06-11-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Trekker women are hot.

Seconded.

Could you imagine tribal Trekker women?

Willravel · 06-11-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Seconded.

Could you imagine tribal Trekker women?

That reminds me of when Deanna Troi devolved into an amphibian...

jorgelito · 06-11-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I thought it was the Chinese.

No, it's the Tibetans too. Especially the young ones. Alot of them are tired of living in poverty and mired in the old ways. When I lived overseas in the 90s, I hung out with a lot of Tibetans. They were very modern and slick and liked to have modern things. They didn't give a squat about the old country in the sense that they liked living in a modern world and the accompanying comforts. I think Time did an article a while back on the big disparity between the old Tibetans and the young ones. How the older ones were hanging on to dying traditions while the younger one's were into their cell phones, learning Chinese and English, and the latest fashions. And also tourist complaints that Tibetans weren't "authentic enough" because they wore blue jeans and sneakers etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

But a good point. Leaving the tribe alone for the sake of keeping them "intact" for our own egos is a bit strange.

I think there is an underlying subtext of cultural imperialism at work in the subconscience going on here as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Seconded.

Could you imagine tribal Trekker women?

Deanna Troi is one hot Trekker! One of my favorites.

MSD · 06-12-2008, 07:36 AM

Tribes like this have no resistance to the most common diseases among us, they rarely survive more than a few months after being contacted. On top of that, they're clearly hostile to outside contact. I'm not one for cultural relativism, but this is a clear case where contact is harmful.

I say we leave them alone.

thingstodo · 06-13-2008, 10:30 AM

We ruined things long ago. Just read the Daniel Quinn book My Ishmael. It talks about the tribal society compared to our society of takers. A movie with Anthony Hopkins and Cuba Gooding Jr. called Instinct was loosely based on the book. Things were much better in the really old days.

The_Jazz · 06-13-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thingstodo

Things were much better in the really old days.

Yeah, gotta love the high child mortality rates, completely insular societies, no medical care and no internet.

"Better"? No way. "Worse"? No way. "Different"? Oh, you betcha.

lotsofmagnets · 06-13-2008, 11:06 AM

i wish i had no teeth

dlish · 06-13-2008, 11:56 AM

usually gravity makes their schlongs much longer...

i wish i lived in those days too

QuasiMondo · 06-13-2008, 02:38 PM

Damn this prime directive nonsense. Drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Onward, progress!

Baraka_Guru · 06-13-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuasiMondo

Damn this prime directive nonsense. Drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Onward, progress!

Drag them?

Kill them and take their land.

Now that's progress.

Willravel · 06-13-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuasiMondo

Damn this prime directive nonsense. Drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Onward, progress!

Oops

thingstodo · 06-14-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Yeah, gotta love the high child mortality rates, completely insular societies, no medical care and no internet.

"Better"? No way. "Worse"? No way. "Different"? Oh, you betcha.

First, you didn't clarify what I meant by the really old days. Second - well, hell, if you didn't clarify, you don't even have a position from whence to debate. And you didn't clarify "better" either.

what is the common meaning for better and relative to what?

Please - take the time to check out the book I mentioned before you jump to shallow conclusions.

Baraka_Guru · 06-14-2008, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thingstodo

We ruined things long ago. Just read the Daniel Quinn book My Ishmael. It talks about the tribal society compared to our society of takers.

This tribe's workers probably get 3 weeks off a month.

The Faba · 06-17-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

Who's to say we're civilized when we're responsible for waste, pollution, mass genocidal levels of warfare.

We have Guitar Hero.

I rest my case. ; )

Shauk · 06-17-2008, 07:38 PM

I've got no clever retort for this, I do believe you caught me with my pants down.

I'm a walking contradiction.

Maybe this is why I like Steampunk.

thingstodo · 06-19-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

I'm a walking contradiction.

I love it when you talk dirty.

stevie667 · 06-19-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

*Caption from picture 1*
"Hey Jerry, is that a Boeing C-17A up there?"
"Where?"
"I'll point with my bow"
"OH. Yeah, it's a Boeing C-17A. Wanna go see Iron Man again?"
"Pssh... I dunno, I still haven't seen Indiana Jones."

'Dude, the church has finally found us! I havn't had a shower in years and this mud is just impossible to get off'
"Hooraay! I'll attract their attention by making a cross with my bow.."

Cynthetiq · 06-23-2008, 07:43 AM

hmmph... fake?

Quote:

View: Secret of the 'lost' tribe that wasn't
Source: Guardian
posted with the TFP thread generator

Secret of the 'lost' tribe that wasn't
Secret of the 'lost' tribe that wasn'tTribal guardian admits the Amazon Indians' existence was already known, but he hoped the publicity would lift the threat of logging

In pictures: the remote Amazonian tribe
Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
The Observer, Sunday June 22, 2008
Article history

Warriors from the Amazon basin tribe, above, paint their bodies red and fire arrows to ward off the plane carrying José Carlos Meirelles, who says that he released the picture in order to highlight the plight of indigenous people in the jungle

They are the amazing pictures that were beamed around the globe: a handful of warriors from an 'undiscovered tribe' in the rainforest on the Brazilian-Peruvian border brandishing bows and arrows at the aircraft that photographed them.

Or so the story was told and sold. But it has now emerged that, far from being unknown, the tribe's existence has been noted since 1910 and the mission to photograph them was undertaken in order to prove that 'uncontacted' tribes still existed in an area endangered by the menace of the logging industry.

The disclosures have been made by the man behind the pictures, José Carlos Meirelles, 61, one of the handful of sertanistas – experts on indigenous tribes – working for the Brazilian Indian Protection Agency, Funai, which is dedicated to searching out remote tribes and protecting them.

In his first interviews since the disclosure of the tribe's existence, Meirelles described how he found the group, detailed how they lived and how he planned the publicity to protect them and other tribes in similar danger of losing the habitat in which they have flourished for hundreds of years.

Meirelles admitted that the tribe was first known about almost a century ago and that the apparently chance encounter that produced the now famous images was no accident. 'When we think we might have found an isolated tribe,' he told al-Jazeera, 'a sertanista like me walks in the forest for two or three years to gather evidence and we mark it in our [global positioning system]. We then map the territory the Indians occupy and we draw that protected territory without making contact with them. And finally we set up a small outpost where we can monitor their protection.'

But in this case Meirelles appears, controversially, to have gone out to seek and find the uncontacted tribe in an area where it was known to be living.

According to his account, the Brazilian state of Acre offered him the use of an aircraft for three days. 'I had years of GPS co-ordinates,' he said. Meirelles had another clue to the tribe's precise location. 'A friend of mine sent me some Google Earth co-ordinates and maps that showed a strange clearing in the middle of the forest and asked me what that was,' he said. 'I saw the co-ordinates and realised that it was close to the area I had been exploring with my son – so I needed to fly over it.'

For two days, Meirelles says, he flew a 150km-radius route over the border region with Peru and saw huts that belonged to isolated tribes. But he did not see people. 'When the women hear the plane above, they run into the forest, thinking it's a big bird,' he said. 'This is such a remote area, planes don't fly over it.'

What he was looking for was not only proof of life, but firm evidence that the tribes in this area were flourishing – proof in his view that the policy of no contact and protection was working. On the last day, with only a couple hours of flight time remaining, Meirelles spotted a large community.

'When I saw them painted red, I was satisfied, I was happy,' he said. 'Because painted red means they are ready for war, which to me says they are happy and healthy defending their territory.'

Survival International, the organisation that released the pictures along with Funai, conceded yesterday that Funai had known about this nomadic tribe for around two decades. It defended the disturbance of the tribe saying that, since the images had been released, it had forced neighbouring Peru to re-examine its logging policy in the border area where the tribe lives, as a result of the international media attention. Activist and former Funai president Sydney Possuelo agreed that – amid threats to their environment and doubt over the existence of such tribes – it was necessary to publish them.

But the revelation that the existence of the tribe was already established will provoke awkward questions over why a decision was made to try to photograph them – a form of contact in itself – in order to make a political point.

Meirelles, one of only five or so genuine sertanistas, has no regrets, arguing that the pictures and video released to the world were powerful and indisputable evidence to those who say isolated tribes no longer exist. 'Alan García [the President of Peru] declared recently that the isolated Indians were a creation in the imagination of environmentalists and anthropologists – now we have the pictures.'

But he is determined to keep the tribe's location secret – even under torture, he says. 'They can decide when they want contact, not me or anyone else.'

About this articleClose This article appeared in the Observer on Sunday June 22 2008 on p34 of the World news section. It was last updated at 00:50 on June 22 2008.

QuasiMondo · 06-23-2008, 08:33 AM

Not as disingenuous as 'Krippendorf's Tribe' but it does take away the joys of discovering a lost tribe.

Oh well, to the 21st Century we go, Onward Progress!!!

Xephani · 04-15-2011, 09:26 PM

I certainly think that tribal people's got more time off - they aren't chained to proping our suck em dry economy that feeds 20% of the people 80% of the wealth - very time, even with re-distribution - face it 80% of us are slaves to the other 20% and it's an illusion that the middle classes will ever reach the top. We're just peddling bicycles for others to lead opulant lives. I'm interested in getting strategies that allow us to get our needs met in more sustainable ways, but also with more equality and less product economy and more support from cradle to grave for our needs - rather than letting some suffer some struggle and some be indulged...

06-10-2008, 06:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
lotsofmagnets Upright Location: reykjavík, iceland	true. probably a bunch of kids that went feral over the weekend. i wonder how long it will take the loggers to reach them __________________ mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable? Last edited by lotsofmagnets; 06-10-2008 at 07:00 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

06-10-2008, 09:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	Fascinating, although I'm not sure if reporting their discovery is a good idea if they want the tribe to be left alone. It's like, "hey look what we found...it's RIGHT HERE!!!" __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.

06-11-2008, 02:01 AM	#10 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	i saw this story nearly 2 weeks ago when it broke. as curious as i am, i tihnk we should let them be. who's to say our civilisation is more civilised or better than anyone elses. one day there will be no 'uncontacted tribes' and we will regret the day we decided to contact the last one __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

06-11-2008, 05:01 PM	#17 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	It makes me think of the Prime Directive; I think it could definitely apply here. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

06-13-2008, 10:30 AM	#24 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	We ruined things long ago. Just read the Daniel Quinn book My Ishmael. It talks about the tribal society compared to our society of takers. A movie with Anthony Hopkins and Cuba Gooding Jr. called Instinct was loosely based on the book. Things were much better in the really old days. __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy.

06-10-2008, 06:42 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Caption from picture 1 "Hey Jerry, is that a Boeing C-17A up there?" "Where?" "I'll point with my bow" "OH. Yeah, it's a Boeing C-17A. Wanna go see Iron Man again?" "Pssh... I dunno, I still haven't seen Indiana Jones."

06-10-2008, 08:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	thats why it's in quotations. who's to say we're civilized when we're responsible for waste, pollution, mass genocidal levels of warfare. If you showed these tribals videos of Hiroshima or WWI era "Red Baron"-esque dog fight, they'd be quite within their means to think we're the root of all evil. Have you seen the ending to 5th element lately. It's emblazoned in my head, it's a powerful message that transcends historic periods, from the dawn of time and well into our future, we'll keep killing each other and giving people reasons to want to kill us. whoo! thats another topic isn't it All that aside, I wonder if they like Jungle music

06-10-2008, 10:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
Randerolf Fireball Location: ~	What happens when oil or other resources are found there? Another Camisea gas pipeline Peru carve their way into the interior of Peru?

06-10-2008, 10:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	It's like screenshots from Diablo II.

06-11-2008, 02:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	guess it depends on what you value as "Important" in life, and everything in your surroundings that determine that. I guess the more "base" lifestyle appeals to me for whatever reason.

06-11-2008, 04:22 PM	#16 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	That's a big part of it isn't it? The "white man over romanticization" of other cultures? It reminds me of the Orientalism that was so popular back in the day. Also similar to how many white folks want to keep a native population the way they are when in fact that isn't what they may want. For example Tibet: Many Tibetans want flat screen tv's, Nikes etc but the white folks that travel there complain about all the modernization spoiling the authenticity of it all (whatever that means). Really, it's quite patronizing and condescending. So-called primitive life while I'm sure has its benefits, can be quite harsh. Maybe they would like modern comforts instead of running around the jungle in their underwear shooting bows and arrows.

06-12-2008, 07:36 AM	#23 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Tribes like this have no resistance to the most common diseases among us, they rarely survive more than a few months after being contacted. On top of that, they're clearly hostile to outside contact. I'm not one for cultural relativism, but this is a clear case where contact is harmful. I say we leave them alone.

06-13-2008, 11:06 AM	#26 (permalink)
lotsofmagnets Upright Location: reykjavík, iceland	i wish i had no teeth __________________ mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

06-13-2008, 11:56 AM	#27 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	usually gravity makes their schlongs much longer... i wish i lived in those days too __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

06-13-2008, 02:38 PM	#28 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	Damn this prime directive nonsense. Drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Onward, progress! __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

06-17-2008, 07:38 PM	#34 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	I've got no clever retort for this, I do believe you caught me with my pants down. I'm a walking contradiction. Maybe this is why I like Steampunk.

06-23-2008, 08:33 AM	#38 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	Not as disingenuous as 'Krippendorf's Tribe' but it does take away the joys of discovering a lost tribe. Oh well, to the 21st Century we go, Onward Progress!!! __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

04-15-2011, 09:26 PM	#39 (permalink)
Xephani Upright Location: Melbourne, Australia	I certainly think that tribal people's got more time off - they aren't chained to proping our suck em dry economy that feeds 20% of the people 80% of the wealth - very time, even with re-distribution - face it 80% of us are slaves to the other 20% and it's an illusion that the middle classes will ever reach the top. We're just peddling bicycles for others to lead opulant lives. I'm interested in getting strategies that allow us to get our needs met in more sustainable ways, but also with more equality and less product economy and more support from cradle to grave for our needs - rather than letting some suffer some struggle and some be indulged...