UKking

Terrible, awful idea.

Death should never be tempted by such hoaxes. Sue the school board, the police department, and anyone of the scumbags involved in this.

If I was a parent, and my kid came home and told me about a hoax the school pulled off like that, I'd want somebody's ass to fry.

Don't manipulate children. Period.

The_Jazz

UKking, it's obvious you don't have kids.

Is this in the best of taste? No. Did it cause any permanent harm? No.

You could sue over this. You would lose and then have to pay the defense costs of whoever you targeted. Others here would call it a frivolous suit; I won't because I hate that term. It is a meritless suit since I don't think that you could prove any harm was done. If it was, then the message got through and the kids will lay off the boozen driving.

I don't have any sort of problem with this sort of thing, namely because a kid in my graduating class in high school was in a drunk driving accident about 3 months before graduation. Thankfully it was a one car accident, and he was the only one hurt, but he was still in rehab when we graduated.

And don't manipulate children? Please. Anyone who's been around a 2 year old for longer than 5 minutes knows that the ONLY way to get them to do what they're told is to manipulate them into cooperating. And unless and until you're ready to start taking on the toy, breakfast cereal and entertainment industries, your indignant stand against manipulation by the schools looks pretty shallow.

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Miss Mango

GREAT idea. I will suggest it to some friends of mine still in high school, although since this is getting so much publicity, kids will be wary in the future.

Tully Mars

I like the idea. Teenager thoughts aren't very deep and it's hard to hold their attention for... what was I talking about? Oh, yeah longer then a couple seconds. Anything to get them thinking about the issue is good.

If I remember right when films such as "red pavement" hit class rooms some parents were pissed at that too.

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Cynthetiq

UK, you obviously don't know about the area in which this happened.

Oceanside is about 1 hour from Tijuana Mexico.

I grew up in the San Fernando Valley which was 2.5 hours from Mexico.

Drinking age in CA is 21. Drinking age in Mexico is 18 or $3.25 whichever you are. At one point I know they started cracking down to restrict closer to 18 but really it is very much a So Cal thing to do on the weekends to drive to TJ get plastered and walk back across the border and DRIVE home.

I can't tell you how many people I helped or carried across the border in Mexico who were just too wasted to do anything but passout.

I know all about it because I was usually the designated driver and I didn't drink a single thing the entire night until I got home or the hotel sometimes at 6am. I can tell you that there were many small fender benders around that time period, of people who drove as far away as Bakersfield to party on the weekends. With the price of gas it is now may not be as problematic, but it still will happen.

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Shauk

UK, you're going to be the minority here obviously, this is brilliant.

The people who weren't going to drink and drive anyway will only have their attitude reenforced, and the people who didn't give it a 2nd thought, will.

this is one of those messages that have to be pushed consistently throughout each year since every year, thousands of new drivers are getting on the roads without any previous experience.

They certainly do not need alcohol in the mix

snowy

They do this at high schools around these parts; my best friend's sister played one of the dead students in their version of this. At my high school they made us watch accidents that occurred due to drunk driving, and then took us outside to show us a car that had been in such an accident and demonstrate how long it takes for the jaws of life to cut open a wrecked car and get people out of it. Personally, I think it's a good eye-opener for a lot of people.

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BadNick

I like the idea and after seeing this I plan to ask our school admins if they have such plans. IMO kids are oversaturated with info and advice about this and presenting it again in a highly impacting manner is beneficial. For those children who are emotionally too fragile to handle this, the parents might want to consider other kinds of help to toughen the kids up for real life.

Now that my two boys are approaching driving age, though they are only 12 & 13 now, I want them to be very aware...even overly aware...of the consequences of driving under the influence.

Bear Cub

At what point do we draw the line for acceptable levels of deception? The general consensus seems to be that this particular incident was acceptable. How does it compare to the incident in which the shooting was staged in the elementary school?

(Just for the record, I have no problem with what went on in this hoax, just trying to draw a comparison.)

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ring

After my 19 year-old cousin and three of his classmates,
were killed in a drunken car crash after drag racing,

With the parents permission, the police put what was left of the
shattered vehicle on one end of the football field...the week before
'Homecoming.' Quite the reality check.

I agree with what Badnick says.

Cynthetiq

A shooting staged at the school plays on the safety that one feels in school. If they were to stage something like that I'd probably agree it's over the line.

The difference is that school is supposed to feel and be safe.

Seeing carnage from a wreck is very effective to remind people that bad things happen.

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sapiens

Has it been demonstrated that such activities actual decrease drunk driving deaths, drunk driving, or even attitudes about drunk driving in the long term (over other methods of education)? I'm all for letting high school students out of class and scaring them, but if it isn't demonstrably better, why waste the time and resources?

Martian

I'm wondering the same thing.

If this is a proven effective method of reducing drunk driving incidents among teens and young adults then it's a valuable program. If it isn't it's a stupid waste of time that borders on cruel.

Never underestimate the 'it can't happen to me' factor. My hunch is that by the time the kids get to high school and/or driving age it's too late to teach responsibility. This sort of thing begins at home and no amount of shock factor can change that.

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LoganSnake

I think it's an awesome idea. Would fully support it if it was used on my kids.

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ratbastid

In my high school they rolled three paraplegics onto the stage during an assembly to talk about their drunk-driving wrecks. Pretty damn effective.

Cynthetiq

here is more information on the program

http://www.every15minutes.com

It seems to be that the program is being touted across the nation with training across America.

The article makes it much more sensationalistic versus the actual:

Righteous indignation be damned in the face of facts where probably some if not most of the kids found it to be more "farce" than something as shocking as being notified a fellow student was killed by some officer walking in to announce it to the class.

Now that I think of it, it sounds like poor management of deliver of bad news since no news is ever delivered by an officer in such a manner that wasn't acutally a PSA.

you can also see that the program has been running since 2001.

I'd like to also add that nowhere does this program associate themselves with MADD. It also does not state MADD in the article in the OP.

There is probably enough data to see if there are some effectiveness of the program.

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ring

I can understand the cruelty factor when the students realized
they had been 'duped'..basically lied to.
I can see how that could erode trust in adults and especially
those in law enforcement.

I do not know the statistics of how effective these mock scenes are either.

There have been programs in large cities where gang violence is so
pervasive, they take very young children already somewhat
involved and aware of the gang scene, to the morgue.

Seeing the bullet ridden bodies as the coroner pulls back the sheet,
takes quite a bit of the romance and coolness out of the world that
they imagine it to be.

It ain't no video game.

The cost of these programs would be well worth it.
So tragic, those in power for the last 8 years have been...well..in power.
But I digress....sorry.

sapiens

So, do you think that you would have been in a drunk-driving accident if you hadn't seen the paraplegics?

If they are empirically demonstrated to work better than other educational programs, then they may be worth it. Otherwise, you're just showing kids bullet-ridden bodies. Fear appeals may be shocking, but they're not necessarily effective at changing behavior.

The OP article does suggest an association:
EDIT: Thanks for providing the links to the program website. It seems a lot less deceptive than the OP article suggests. I'm looking around for investigations of the effectiveness of the program.

ring

How can we measure the effectiveness of any of these programs,
when we take into account their sporadic nature?

It boggles my small brain.

I can only speak from anecdotal experience.

It was very effective in my case.

sapiens

Well, we could give students surveys of their attitudes regarding or experience with drunk driving some time after the program and compare those responses to the responses of students from schools that do not receive the program (or use other educational methods). That would be cheaper than tracking student drinking & driving behavior longitudinally.

Redlemon

That's not the question, really; it's "would you have driven drunk if you hadn't seen the paraplegics?"

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sapiens

Yes, I should have been more clear. Thanks.

ring

I see the logic of that,
yet how do we factor the fact we are dealing with youngsters
who sometimes like to fill out forms full of questions in a flippant
manner like youngsters sometimes do?

A strange peer reviewed study full of peer pressure.
(I really don't mean to be sarcastic..I'm just brainstorming here.)

Seer666

as some one who has lost a loved one to a drunk driver, I am of two minds on this. any thing to keep some dumb fuck from getting behind the wheel when drunk is good. However, having lost many people I care about, something like that is fucked up beyound all means. If you have ever had to go through the shock and pain of sudden lose, then you know just how much it it scars you. To do that to a bunch of kids is just wrong. One more abuse of the system, all "for the children" I said it before, I'll say it again. Fuck he children.

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Willravel

In a related story, four teens were gunned down in front of their classmates to show the dangers of guns. It was later revealed that they were just acting.

Also, an an attempt to reduce teen pregnancies, several young women who had taken school physicals were told they were pregnant. 9 months later, the school admitted it was not true. Everyone laughed at them.

Finally, several teachers were brutally raped in front of their students at a local middle school. Afterwards the rapist took off his mask to reveal McGruff the Crime Dog, who warned that rape was bad.

Frosstbyte

MADD long left the field of trying to prevent drunk driving and has been essentially a temperance cause for quite some time. This is a pretty twisted manipulation, well beyond the means necessary to teach the message they're trying to get across. I would be perfectly ok with them showing the brutal accident scene, but somberly telling people that other people they know are dead is just cruel, and no good intention is going to relieve them of that.

Imagine if someone called you and told you a good friend or loved one had died and let you soak in that pain and sorrow until saying, "JUST KIDDING! Hope you learned something!" I'd be fucking pissed, and I think I'd have good reason to be. The fact that these are high school students and the fact that it's to try to prevent drunk driving doesn't change that.

Will is often prone to hyperbole, but I think his point is well made above.

ring

I agree most definitely wholeheartedly on that point as well.

robot_parade

Yeah, I think this is wrong, too. I'm shocked that so many people here seem to like this idea. It's wrong to lie to people, even for their own good, and even if they're just teenagers, and therefore not real people. Think of all the other situations this could be (mis-) used in. Imagine a police officer came to your door and told you your husband, wife, or child had been killed in a drunk-driving accident. An hour or so later he comes back and says "Not really! Don't drink and drive!". Or your Doctor telling you you have terminal cancer. And hour later, he calls you at home and says "Not really! I just wanted to encourage you to get screened more often!"

Also, this is inherently self-limiting. As it gets more popular, the chances that the kids in the class will have heard of it, and not be fooled.

Imagine the kids being told that a classmate had died in a drunk driving incident, and them not believing it because of this.

Have any actual psychologists signed off on this?

canuckguy

Not sure about this one, personally i would feel faded towards madd/teachers/police/society in general for faking such a horrific event. There has to be equally effective ways to stop kids or anyone for that matter from drinking and driving.

In my school we had the car demonstration and lectures from people injured in drunk driving accidents. I thought they were pretty effective, but did not stop me once from doing this deadly retarded practice.

I would like to add that i grew up with drinking and driving as the norm unfortunately. I remember mixing drinks, yes mixing drinks for my dad while he drove when i was younger. Lovely stuff....once i hit the age 13 i drove when my dad had to much to drink.

Personally I have only drove once while drunk and was luckily enough not to kill anyone or do any damage. I was around 22 years old and out with my then girlfriend and some buddies. So drunk that i did not even remember driving home. Worst feeling ever in the morning of what could have happened. Now i will not even get in a car with someone who has had 1 drink let alone drive myself after drinking.

ring

From an anthropological perspective,
could these type of tactics be considered almost excepted,
given the fact that I grew up with 'Candid Camera'?

The last few times I did watch television, I saw myriad programs,
containing practical? jokes that I considered cruel and offensive.

Cruel, nasty vicarious violence has been the mainstay of entertainment
in this country for decades, and it seems as though it needs to escalate
to keep peoples attention.

Think of all the programs on T.V. alone....where this type of behavior...
is considered funny...

yuck...me go be quiet now..and take a bath.

uncle phil

when i was young, we were all bullet-proof...

we lost a few...

sobered some of us up for a while...

schools are doing this triage thing before prom nights...here and in florida...

love it...

told the principal down in florida where i sub that it was one of the better things that i've seen lately...

he said "thank you" and that he'd do it again...

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Seer666

This is the kind of mind numbingly stupid behavior that makes me want to do violence upon my fellow man. I can honestly say, that given the way I was back in high school, people would have had to sit on me to keep me from assaulting whatever faculty was involved in this.

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jorgelito

Can you post a link or source to this? I have not heard of this happening at all. Where did this happen?

Seaver

Honestly, I'd be pissed.

With that kind of logic the students should take over the school with guns, and kidnap the principal threatening execution.

Just before SWAT took down the place, they jump out and say SURPRISE! We're showing how bad terrorism is! And then open a can of coke with the SWAT, jumping that dumb sideways jump with their hands in the air smiling while the SWAT guys smile and nod approvingly.

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djtestudo

I'm naturally disinclined to pay much attention to MADD, since somewhere along the way (probably when the "DD" went from "Drunk Driving" to "Destructive Decisions") it seems like the organization was taken over by Sheila Broflovski.

But since there seem to be conflicting reports about how this thing works, I'm withholding judgment. If I was a student, I would probably find the version in the original post angering, and the one on the other site just annoying and not worth paying attention to.

Of course, I also never EVER drink enough to have this be an issue and am smart enough to understand the consequences of such an action (at least I believe I am), so that is where my opinion is coming from.

I'm sure if I was a parent my view would be at least somewhat different (though likely not all the way to actually supporting any of this).

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SSJTWIZTA

Oh my. I know exactly how this would play out in my fucked up high school (Haines City high.)
The "play" would be about 10 min. into its run before students started falling asleep, hurling random shit at the stage, and just plain fucking off.

after the scenario, kids would show up to school for the rest of the school year drunker or higher than they usually were in some sort of fucked up protest. Any "hippy" who tryed to defend the thing would be totally ignored or ran off of the campus.

-sigh- my high school was morally fucked, but everyone seemed to get along.

personally, i think that its bullshit. darwin usually falls into play with dumb-asses, unfortunately in DUI cases the drunkard usually is the one who walks away fine.

do i believe you should drink and drive? no.
Does everyone know how horrible it is to do so? i would love to believe so.
Was this the right way to go about things? no, i dont believe so.

what happened to the police coming into class rooms and showing kids photos of DUI wreckage? that always seemed to work on even the most stubborn of kids.

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Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
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Miss Mango

The fourth paragraph down in the article in the OP MADD is mentioned:

little_tippler

I think it's wrong to lie to people about someone's death...especially if it's someone who they cared about. I do think that some people are too sensitive to be put in this situation and it can be traumatic. I'm not in favour of it.

I think the second part, the re-enactment, or the talk that ratbastid mentions with victims of drunk-driving, is not a bad idea.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what happens to you or what you're told - it's how you deal with things and your decision process, based on your character, that will determine an outcome.

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

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FoolThemAll

Those jerks would've driven me to drink.

They couldn't just find a real victim of drunk driving? Obviously, drunk driving must be an epidemic for that school.

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MSD

We did this at my high school, but instead of faking deaths, I dressed as the Grim Reaper and pulled a student out of class every hour and a half (which is closer to the actual frequency of deaths caused by drinking and driving,) who returned a few minutes later with their face painted white. They read facts about drunk driving accidents between classes. I doubt it had any effect on anyone.


MADD may have started out with good intentions, but it is nothing more than a group of moralists who try to force their neo-prohibitionist agenda on everyone. They're the ones who help set up counseling for those who abuse alcohol and try to brand anyone who has ever had more than a sip of communion wine as an alcoholic and force them into their rehab programs. They're the reason that drunk driving statistics are so terrifying because it's recorded as an alcohol-related accident if the driver blows even a .01, if anyone in the car had anything to drink, if a sober driver hits a pedestrian who had been drinking, or if anyone tests positive for any drug; one top of that the statistic arbitrarily adds something like 10 or 15 percent to account for drunk drivers who aren't caught.

MADD do little good, they masquerade as saviors of kids while they advance their extremist agenda unchallenged.