Racism is in your brain - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Lasereth · 05-05-2008, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Your 'list' is used to whip up fear and hatred of black people because it doesn't tell the whole story. And you still haven't told me where you got it from, but I understand if you'd rather not say...

Whipping up fear and hatred of black people wasn't my intention. If that's what those facts are causing then I regret posting them. I'm just responding to the article in the OP statement. The article is proving that many people have different subconscious feelings about black people and I'm saying that there's a reason for it, and that this reason isn't racist. I'm not a racist, I'm actually an <I>extreme</I> supporter of racial equality and black rights. I just think that lots of people in the US are scared of admitting that black crime is a real problem and they think it's racist to be suspicious of young black men in a gangster neighborhood when it's not.

Obama really set it in stone at the 2004 Democratic National Convention and that's why I'm voting for him (sorry for derailing but it does apply).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Do you believe that a young black man who was brought up in a stable middle-class, mixed-race community is more apt to be a criminal than a young white man brought up in the same community? Just because he happens to be black?

No, I don't believe that. I suppose those facts sort of reflect that as well. They're certainly bloated from gang/low income environments and it's not far-fetched to say that the facts are taken extremely out of context.

I was being thick-headed by not seeing this. I'll leave the facts in this thread so the ass end of it will make sense but I don't endorse them.

You learn something new everyday -- that's why I like TFP. I never even considered that black crime stats were probably unrealistic and uneven because of crime havens. Thanks for opening my eyes to that.

This is the stuff I think about on the way to work.

mixedmedia · 05-05-2008, 05:10 AM

Well, gee, this wasn't the reaction I was expecting. I guess I should question all of my expectations, eh?

I don't think many people are afraid of admitting that crime in black communities (and in most disenfranchised communities regardless of race) is a problem. I know that is not true for me - it's a very serious problem. Rather they want people to understand the nature of the problem without reacting fearfully. Yes, if a person ends up stranded at night in a crime-ridden district it would be rational for them to be afraid. But you cannot rationally carry this fear around with you everywhere you go - especially if you are using the stereotype of what a 'thug' looks like. I don't know about you, but I have met young men - white, black, hispanic - who 'look' like thugs but are very nice, sweet people. And conversely, I have met young men who look upright and trustworthy who were total scumbags. I know other people have to have observed this...I think we rely on stereotypes even when our own experience tells us otherwise. No doubt it is because of our instincts to separate and compartmentalize like others have said, but I don't think it's a reliable system for operating in the world today and I think it needs to evolve. There's nothing wrong with thinking a little more and reacting a little less.

Cynthetiq · 05-05-2008, 08:30 PM

I don't care if they are black, white, or whatever, if I'm walking down a dark desolate street, I'm wary of ANYONE and EVERYONE.

This has happened to me in NYC, SF, LA, Prague, Ibiza, Madrid, London, Salzburg...

Willravel · 05-05-2008, 08:32 PM

We all have the potential for racial bias or hatred, but it's not "racism in your brain". I hope that's clear. You aren't born racist. No one is.

Ustwo · 05-05-2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

We all have the potential for racial bias or hatred, but it's not "racism in your brain". I hope that's clear. You aren't born racist. No one is.

You are born with instincts that can lead easily to racism.

Willravel · 05-05-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You are born with instincts that can lead easily to racism.

Yes, but that's only a potential. It's not being born hating gay people or black people or women. That's important to remember when reading the article. The article is not excusing the behavior at all.

Cynthetiq · 05-05-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Yes, but that's only a potential. It's not being born hating gay people or black people or women. That's important to remember when reading the article. The article is not excusing the behavior at all.

I think what you are stating is that racism isn't in your GENES, but it certainly is in your brain.

Willravel · 05-05-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I think what you are stating is that racism isn't in your GENES, but it certainly is in your brain.

The possibility of racism is, in some studies, linked to certain biological traits. Racism specifically isn't caused by the brain, though, just the potential. It's like being born with weak bones. There's no guarantee that you're going to break bones, but because of your medical condition it's more likely. The birth defect doesn't cause the breaks, though, a fall or something else does.

Cynthetiq · 05-05-2008, 09:14 PM

You've just contradicted yourself in these last posts.

No one has stated the cause, just where it's located. Racism is located in your brain, it's not located in your left hand or little pinky toe.

UKking · 05-07-2008, 07:24 AM

Do you think that deep down, no matter what race, everyone is at least little bit racist?

My thoughts:

Yes, of course we are, though racist's probably not the right word - prejudiced is better. People tend to hang out with people who are like them, and that goes for physical appearance as well as in terms of interests and personality. It makes sense on a biological level that we'd be tuned to do that, as developing clans and tribes is a sensible way to protect genetic data and be able to procreate with a set of similar people/animals/whatever.

It's something that it'd be much better for people to come to terms with rather than attempt to fight against. The pie-in-the-sky attitude that if we all group together and try hard enough, prejudice won't exist any more, is naive and incredibly annoying.

Willravel · 05-07-2008, 07:47 AM

We all have cognitive bias. We are not all racist. There's a sizable difference.

World's King · 05-07-2008, 08:30 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I fucking hate white people.

Yes, I'm white.

lotsofmagnets · 05-07-2008, 08:37 AM

wasn´t this only just discussed?

edit:
and here it is: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=134650

Ustwo · 05-07-2008, 09:03 AM

blahblah454 · 05-07-2008, 09:48 AM

Wow, what the hell was that from Ustwo? Who would even put that on?

Cynthetiq · 05-07-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blahblah454

Wow, what the hell was that from Ustwo? Who would even put that on?

get a little culture

... if you read the lyrics you'd also find that the things they mention are a little bit racist.

Everyone's A Little Bit Racist Lyrics click to show

it's been a hit broadway show touring the nation and even had an exclusive stint at Wynn Hotel in Las Vegas.

Avenue Q

Quote:

Avenue Q opened off-broadway at the Vineyard Theatre in March 2003, where it gained rave reviews, and was extended four times!

It won the 2003 Lucille Lortel Award for Outstanding New Musical, as well as a nomination for the 2003 Outer Critics Circle Outstanding Off-Broadway Musical award.

It began previews at the Golden Theatre on July 11th, 2003, with a July 31, 2003 opening.

AVENUE Q WON THREE 2004 TONY AWARDS INCLUDING BEST MUSICAL!

Congratulations to the cast and crew for receiving THREE 2004 TONY AWARDS including Best Musical, Best Book of a Musical and Best Original Score.

jewels · 05-07-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

However - WHY the blacks are more likely to turn to crime in the US and UK is not often addressed.

I contend that what colour you are has little or no impact on how likely you are to become a criminal.

Your upbringing is the key factor, and it is possible to suggest that "because of prejudice, blacks are held down, and people at the bottom of the pile become criminals more often than ones at the top".

In otherwords, racism causes criminality, not the other way round. If we could crack racist assumptions, we might crack criminality.

Bingo!

The media's exploitation of stats such as those Lasereth quoted are one of the reasons that racism is perpetuated.

Personally, I don't believe it's passed down. My grandmother had not spoken positively of the blacks from the poor neighborhoods she lived in. My own parents acted as though race was a tabu subject, although they never actuallly taught me anything one way or the other.

I grew up in white suburbia and other than the nice man who waxed our floors when I was a child, I'd never seen a black person up close until I was in the 7th grade. I was curious, fascinated and outspoken and was one of the first to befriend her. Yes, it was because she looked different. But she was the one who made me realize that she was just another human being with the same dreams and needs as mine.

When my oldest daughter was in a diverse day care center and after two years of playing and learning there, came to me one day and asked why her friend was brown and she wasn't. She hadn't even think that she was different from him until someone pointed it out to her. How can I believe it's genetic?

Oh and I don't think we're all racist, although many still are. I think we all have prejudices, or biases, as will says it.

lotsofmagnets · 05-07-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blahblah454

Wow, what the hell was that from Ustwo? Who would even put that on?

the same ppl that brought us "the internet is for porn"

Willravel · 05-07-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

You've just contradicted yourself in these last posts.

No, fortunately I've been perfectly clear all along: the possibility of racism is in your brain. Racism specifically is caused by environment. I was trying to clarify an assumption that could accompany the vague thread title.

This thread isn't even really about racism, but rather cognitive bias. It's a shame that the author of the article in the OP chose to use sensationalism over science. Pseudo-scientific terms like "implicit bias" are used to excuse shocking and extreme examples of cognitive bias.

Cynthetiq · 05-07-2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

We all have the potential for racial bias or hatred, but it's not "racism in your brain". I hope that's clear. You aren't born racist. No one is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

No, fortunately I've been perfectly clear all along: the possibility of racism is in your brain. Racism specifically is caused by environment. I was trying to clarify an assumption that could accompany the vague thread title.

This thread isn't even really about racism, but rather cognitive bias. It's a shame that the author of the article in the OP chose to use sensationalism over science. Pseudo-scientific terms like "implicit bias" are used to excuse shocking and extreme examples of cognitive bias.

oh. sorry I didn't see how clear that first statement was with that big NOT right before "racism in your brain".

Willravel · 05-07-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

oh. sorry I didn't see how clear that first statement was with that big NOT right before "racism in your brain".

It's too bad you're not understanding this. I was clarifying my point about potential, and ensuring that people weren't confusing said potential with the misleadingly vague thread title.

I'll elaborate by showing the thread title next to the summarization from the article:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynth

Racism is in your brain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summarization

Deep within our subconscious, all of us harbor biases that we consciously abhor. And the worst part is: we act on them

First off it's very important to point out that while racism is a type of bias, it is not all biases. The biases suggested in the summarization may include racism for some people, but in reality (if you've read the article) you can see that it's referring to a number of different biases. Thus, the thread title is misleading. Because of the misleading thread title, and the established fact that many TFP members are unwilling to read an article that's much more than a few paragraphs, I came the the conclusion that it's entirely possible that someone might skip the article in the OP (which has problems of it's own) and take the thread title at face value as fact, one might imagine is supported by the big fat article.

That not being the case in the least, I figured it was important to clarify simple facts. I'll outline them here:
1) Biases are not all subconscious. Some are conscious.
2) "Racism is in your brain" in the way you apparently mean it ("No one has stated the cause, just where it's located. Racism is located in your brain, it's not located in your left hand or little pinky toe.") is about as vague as "my car keys are located in the United States". Not thinking you were saying something so totally and completely obvious, I hoped that it was simply a mistake drawn from a poor article, like racism develops in the brain. That was what I was speaking to.
3) If you would like to get real scientific information about the subject of the article, I suggest googling "Cognitive Bias", looking at the wiki page, and then look under "further reading". The article itself is vague, sensationalized, and includes very little scientific data.

Cynthetiq · 05-07-2008, 12:44 PM

see Will, that's much more informational of a post than your one sentence wonder that you are still defending.

cognitive bias, or any bias doesn't change the end result or effect. If that's the scientific word that makes it acceptable for those that cannot hear what it really boils down to, well that's great for them.

Since you brought up wikipedia: bias crime

Quote:

Hate crimes (also known as bias motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation.[1]

see the word BIAS there?

Bias Crimes: What Every Adelphi Student Needs to Know

Quote:

What is a Bias-Related Crime?

A swastika spray-painted on the University's Interfaith Center door.
A student physically assaulted by a group yelling racial slurs.
Harassing letters containing homophobic epithets mailed to lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgendered students.

These are just a few examples of how bias-related crimes can touch a college campus. Also called hate crimes, bias crimes are criminal acts such as aggravated harassment, arson, assault, criminal mischief, or murder committed by an individual(s) motivated by a bias against the victim's age, ancestry, color, disability, gender, national origin, race, religion, religious practice, or sexual orientation.

Hmmm Bias AND Race, acestry, national origin....

Willravel · 05-07-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

cognitive bias, or any bias doesn't change the end result or effect.

It doesn't change the effect, but it changes the treatment considerably. We are, after all, in agreement that bias should be something to overcome, yes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

If that's the scientific word that makes it acceptable for those that cannot hear what it really boils down to, well that's great for them.

It's not about making something acceptable. It's about providing factually correct information instead of making up terms. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Likewise cognitive bias by any other name is still cognitive bias.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Since you brought up wikipedia: bias crime

Why are you changing the subject?

Cynthetiq · 05-07-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

It doesn't change the effect, but it changes the treatment considerably. We are, after all, in agreement that bias should be something to overcome, yes?

It's not about making something acceptable. It's about providing factually correct information instead of making up terms. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Likewise cognitive bias by any other name is still cognitive bias.

Why are you changing the subject?

being a little cognitively biased against black people isn't any less racist a statement. listen to the absurdity as you read it aloud:
I'm not racist, I'm just cognitively biased against blacks.

and the whole world now needs treatment because we use the words cognitive bias?

I didn't change the subject, you suggested that the bias is the problem, I'm making sure that bias doesn't change the fact that it's still predjudice and racism.

Willravel · 05-07-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

being a little cognitively biased against black people isn't any less racist a statement. listen to the absurdity as you read it aloud:
I'm not racist, I'm just cognitively biased against blacks.

and the whole world now needs treatment because we use the words cognitive bias?

I didn't change the subject, you suggested that the bias is the problem, I'm making sure that bias doesn't change the fact that it's still predjudice and racism.

That statement would be incorrect. Again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel, Who was trying to tread lightly

...while racism is a type of bias, it is not all biases.

Racism is a type of bias, but there are many kinds of bias which are not racism. Sexism and ageism are two examples. One can be sexist without being racist.

Cynthetiq · 05-07-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

That statement would be incorrect. Again:

Racism is a type of bias, but there are many kinds of bias which are not racism. Sexism and ageism are two examples. One can be sexist without being racist.

within the context of the article it's racism, but the rest of it I can agree with... they are all still predjudice.

Willravel · 05-07-2008, 01:27 PM

From the article:

Quote:

That is, many people unwittingly associate “female” with “weak,” “Arab” with “terrorist,” or “black” with “criminal,” even though such stereotypes undermine values such as fairness and equality that many of us hold dear.

The article is just as broad as I am on this. Within the context of the article, it's overall bias.

sapiens · 05-07-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

From the article:

The article is just as broad as I am on this. Within the context of the article, it's overall bias.

What do you mean by "overall bias"?

Willravel · 05-07-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

What do you mean by "overall bias"?

I mean not one specific type of bias, like racism.

pai mei · 05-07-2008, 01:52 PM

Do not be racist. Most of the gypsies around here, 70% I would say are thieves or drug dealers or beggars, or pimps, or something else illegal.
But I do try to take each of them as a new person when I have to talk to one, a bandit is a bandit no matter his color , and so is a friend.

sapiens · 05-07-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I mean not one specific type of bias, like racism.

I thought perhaps you were making an argument about the domain generality of the psychological mechanisms underlying cognitive biases. You weren't. I agree the article discusses other biases as well. That doesn't seem worth debating.

That humans have cognitive biases doesn't surprise me. That those cognitive biases are reflected in cognitive neuroscience research doesn't surprise me either. I do find the implicit (as opposed to explicit) racism angle interesting.

Scientific American is a popular press publication. It's not surprising that there isn't much data in the article. If you want to get "scientific information" about the topic, I would avoid wikipedia and go to the articles referenced in the OP.

hunnychile · 05-07-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotsofmagnets

this thread is starting to move away from prejudice and towards outright racism.

What's the difference between racism and prejustice. Are they not equally the same issue/mind set?

I do think both are learned based upon experiences and upbringing. I wasn't prejustice against people of Islam until I worked with several (men) engineers who didn't want me to create graphics for them at Texas Instrument in
the 80s because I was a woman. Whoa! Even though I was one of the top 3illustrators in the Semiconductor support grapghics department at the time. They acted with gender bias and felt that this mattered to their project. They never gave me a chance - even though I was willing to do a great job for them (even though they were negative from the "get go") and I wasn't prejustice that they thought & spoke openly how we women were inferior to any man in my/our position. I felt a feeling of prejustice against me. Intersesting eye opener. But sadly, I became quite predjustice against men who were Islamic ever since. I didn't understand what their lack of totlerance was all about and it made me bitter & spread the "disease" of racism to me.

sapiens · 05-07-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunnychile

What's the difference between racism and prejustice. Are they not equally the same issue/mind set?

In the social psychological literature, prejudice is considered to be the general attitude you have toward members of a particular group. A prejudice can be positive or negative. Typically, it has an affective component.

Discrimination typically refers to behaviors directed toward others because of their group membership.

Stereotypes (in the social psych literature) refers to generalized beliefs we hold about groups - what we think members of a particular group are like.

Racism, in my opinion, is a combination of some or all of the above related to a particular racial group (such as they are).

Most of the social psych literature I am familiar with makes the distinctions above. That doesn't make the distinctions above any more or less valid than anyone else's opinion, though if you're reading social psych studies about the topic, such definitions might help.

Ustwo · 05-07-2008, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

Scientific American is a popular press publication. It's not surprising that there isn't much data in the article. If you want to get "scientific information" about the topic, I would avoid wikipedia and go to the articles referenced in the OP.

A tangent but, SA used to be one of my favorite science magazines you could find at a news stand. Now, its pretty meh, though it does have pretty pictures.

05-05-2008, 05:10 AM	#42 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, gee, this wasn't the reaction I was expecting. I guess I should question all of my expectations, eh? I don't think many people are afraid of admitting that crime in black communities (and in most disenfranchised communities regardless of race) is a problem. I know that is not true for me - it's a very serious problem. Rather they want people to understand the nature of the problem without reacting fearfully. Yes, if a person ends up stranded at night in a crime-ridden district it would be rational for them to be afraid. But you cannot rationally carry this fear around with you everywhere you go - especially if you are using the stereotype of what a 'thug' looks like. I don't know about you, but I have met young men - white, black, hispanic - who 'look' like thugs but are very nice, sweet people. And conversely, I have met young men who look upright and trustworthy who were total scumbags. I know other people have to have observed this...I think we rely on stereotypes even when our own experience tells us otherwise. No doubt it is because of our instincts to separate and compartmentalize like others have said, but I don't think it's a reliable system for operating in the world today and I think it needs to evolve. There's nothing wrong with thinking a little more and reacting a little less. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

05-05-2008, 08:30 PM	#43 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I don't care if they are black, white, or whatever, if I'm walking down a dark desolate street, I'm wary of ANYONE and EVERYONE. This has happened to me in NYC, SF, LA, Prague, Ibiza, Madrid, London, Salzburg... __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

05-05-2008, 09:14 PM	#49 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	You've just contradicted yourself in these last posts. No one has stated the cause, just where it's located. Racism is located in your brain, it's not located in your left hand or little pinky toe. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

05-07-2008, 07:24 AM	#50 (permalink)
UKking Crazy	Everyone is a little bit racist Do you think that deep down, no matter what race, everyone is at least little bit racist? My thoughts: Yes, of course we are, though racist's probably not the right word - prejudiced is better. People tend to hang out with people who are like them, and that goes for physical appearance as well as in terms of interests and personality. It makes sense on a biological level that we'd be tuned to do that, as developing clans and tribes is a sensible way to protect genetic data and be able to procreate with a set of similar people/animals/whatever. It's something that it'd be much better for people to come to terms with rather than attempt to fight against. The pie-in-the-sky attitude that if we all group together and try hard enough, prejudice won't exist any more, is naive and incredibly annoying.

05-07-2008, 08:30 AM	#52 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I've said it before and I'll say it again. I fucking hate white people. Yes, I'm white. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

05-05-2008, 08:32 PM	#44 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	We all have the potential for racial bias or hatred, but it's not "racism in your brain". I hope that's clear. You aren't born racist. No one is.

05-07-2008, 07:47 AM	#51 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	We all have cognitive bias. We are not all racist. There's a sizable difference.

05-07-2008, 08:37 AM	#53 (permalink)
lotsofmagnets Upright Location: reykjavík, iceland	wasn´t this only just discussed? edit: and here it is: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=134650 __________________ mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

05-07-2008, 09:03 AM	#54 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x9CSnlb-ymA&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x9CSnlb-ymA&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

05-07-2008, 09:48 AM	#55 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	Wow, what the hell was that from Ustwo? Who would even put that on?

05-07-2008, 01:52 PM	#70 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Do not be racist. Most of the gypsies around here, 70% I would say are thieves or drug dealers or beggars, or pimps, or something else illegal. But I do try to take each of them as a new person when I have to talk to one, a bandit is a bandit no matter his color , and so is a friend. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"