joe100

So there are two issues.

1. Recording artists are getting involved in extremely bad contracts with the recording labels.

2. Consumers are obtaining copyrighted material without paying for it.

Both issues need to be cleaned up and fixed.

Issue 2 is not justified by issue 1.

TaLoN

knowledge belongs to everyone and music is pretty much inluded in knowledge. im not stealing anything...all i am doing is giving a big "BITCH PLEASE" to the RIAA. albums should cost no more than the price to produce them.

i have more than enough money to buy cds; but i don't lie down like a beaten dog and take it

TaLoN

gwr_gwir

"Just because you think somebody is overcharging for their product you think it is OK to steal it.

If you guys actually created your own product and then somebody was stealing it you would be the biggest complainers on the planet."

lesse here.. 1. I know the RIAA is overcharging. try looking online for a few minutes, and you'll find all kinds of articles that support the artists, not the RIAA, which is screwing the artists almost as much as they (RIAA) are trying to screw the public. 2. it's not stealing. it's free exchange of information between 2 parties. if need be, people will go back to FTP and AIM transfers. nature finds a way. 3. Some artists create, then post their songs on kazaa/etc intentionally, because it's a d@mn good way to get publicity cheap. 4. most of the music put out today is crap. I might buy a CD if I want to support the artists (such as the LOTR soundtracks), or if I like the band (such as dc Talk), but I'm not paying 20 bucks for one bloody stinking song.

__________________
Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor.
-- Robert Heinlein

Derwood

They shouldn't charge more than the cost of production? Are you high? Do you think there is a single product being sold in this country that is sold at cost? You think your car cost $20,000 to make?

The only products I can think of that is sold at a loss are video game systems. It costs more than $179 to make an X-Box, but MS more than makes up for it by charging $50 per game.

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

joe100

If you are talking about sharing non public domain music then you are a thief. Simple as that.

insider

OK, so this is my first post on here and I'm probably going to piss a bunch of people off, but here it goes.

I have worked in the music industry for over 12 years. I have been an artist, an artist manager, a booking agent, a tour manager, a distributor, a record label owner and now I own my own record store. I've pretty much done everything there is to do in the music industry.

There are a lot of misconceptions in these posts about how much the artists and record labels make. Artists get more per disc than what you think. If they write their own songs, an artist can easily make $2 or more per CD sold. That is why it is so important to purchase the disc. Also, the record label doesn't make as much as you think. I'll break it down for you.

Most CDs are a $17.98 list price which I sell in my store for $15.99.
I pay $12 for that CD from a wholesaler.
That wholesaler pays around $9.50 for that disc from the label.
The label has to pay the artist their $2 from the sale of that disc.
The label also has to pay the manufacturing of about $.50 per disc and packaging
That leaves $7 for the label.
The label has shelled out about a million dollars to record, market, promote and distribute that CD. They have to recoup that money somehow. Record labels have staffs of thousands of people. They send out thousands of promo copies of those CDs for free (which not only costs them money for manufacturing, but also for mailing them!). They print thousands of promo posters and bin cards. They buys hundreds of ads in magazines.

You aren't all naive enough to think that you are discovering these bands all on your own are you? You found out about them through the marketing that these labels have done. These artists that you love so much wouldn't even have a chance to make a CD if it wasn't for the label signing them and putting up the money to record their album. And don't give me the whole "you can record your CD yourselfat home and distribute it on the internet" thing either. Do you know how many local bands record their own discs and never go anywhere? An artist needs the marketing power of a record label in order to be succesful.

I'm not saying that you have to be a on a major label. But an artist needs to focus on what they do best: making music. They need to leave the marketing and distributing to the labels because that's what they do best. And it costs money to do that.

I hate this whole "CDs cost too much" argument. CDs are the cheapest form of entertainment. How many of you paid $8 to sit through that 3 hour crappy Matrix movie? How many of you pay $4 for a beer at the bar? How many of you spend $6 on dinner at McDonalds? All of those things are gone almost immediately. $15 for a CD that you can have forever sounds like a pretty good deal to me!

Besides, don't pretend like everything else you buy is such a great value. When you buy a car, you aren't paying for the metal that it is made from. You are paying for all of the labor that went into making that car. All of the research and development. All of the design. All of the testing. Do you get it? It's the same thing with CDs. You aren't paying for the plastic. You are paying for everything that went into the creation and distribution of that music.

It just comes down to the fact that it is the nature of humans to take advantage of a situation if they have the opportunity. Nobody complained about how much an artist was or wasn't getting paid before the internet. Don't pretend like you care now. It comes down to the fact that if humans have the ability to get something for free (whether it is right or wrong) they will.

People feel like they are "entitled" to free music. Like it is owed to them. Guess what? It's not. Music is a creation by someone that deserves to get rewarded for it. You have no right to decide whether that person gets paid or not. If your boss told you that you were no longer going to get paid for working you wouldn't work for him anymore. Well guess what? If artists don't get paid for their work, you will soon have fewer songs to choose from on your favorite download site.

I could go on for days, but I need to close up my store and go home. I've had this store for 3 years and have never made a penny. I get my ass handed to me every day. I watch people go to Best Buy and get CDs for below my wholesale cost. I watch a person buy a CD and tell all of his friends right in front of me that he will burn them all a copy when they get home. But I keep doing this because I love it. I love it when a kid comes in and his face lights up when he buys that new CD from his favorite band. I love the conversations that all of us music nerds have about our favorite CDs. I love the debates over whose favorite band is the best. The people who shop here are true music fans. They want the packaging. They want to support the artist. They want to support the local indie store. They love the fact that they have their own personal music consultant. It's an experience that many young people are missing out on. My store is a place where I know all of my regular's names. I know what music they like. I call them at home and tell them that that rare out of print CD they were looking for just came in used.

Those days sadly are coming to an end for many indie retailers. Indie stores are dropping like flies and I blame thieving bastards that think completely about themselves. But then again, isn't that what America is all about...me...me...me.

Double D

Good post - obviously both heartfelt and informed.

It matters not if you piss people off, just that you speak to the issue and don't insult anyone personally. You did that well.

Thanks!

dasixth

What really sucks is everyone has some really good points for both side of the issue.

Stealing is wrong, I totally agree there. I used to download a lot of stuff. Harder to find older songs and a lot of stuff I was interetsed in and never heard. I can honestly say though that I bought A LOT of cds because I actually got to hear them and see that there was more than one song that was good. I know a lot of people do not do this but doesn't it have some good qualities?

In the same respect though, cd's are expensive! There is nothing worse than hearing a song, you love it, you spend $15 on it to end up with basically a single.

There is one thing on this board I had a real problem with though. Someone on here said that "if you can't afford it, you don't deserve it". That is rediculous! How much do you even like music? I buy as much as I can, a lot more than most. When I don't have money for a cd I want, does that mean I don't deserve it? NO! That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

The whole issue is one fine line and it seems like not enough people want to meet half way, or the wrong people do not want to meet half way.

Please someone tell me if I am nuts because I am not a tech type. I know a little but not a lot, but with the technology out there shouldn't there be some way that you could make a program that would allow you to listen to the music but not download it to keep or more importantly to burn? I can not speak for everyone but I think a lot of people would be happy with that. I definitely would I don't want to steal it but I want to hear it so I know if it is worth my hard earned money. That would probably improve the quality of cds also because the better the cd, and the more people that can check it out, the more the artists will sell.

Just no easy answers!

forecheck

insider, thanks for the post from somebody who is close to the topic.

Sometimes I say things a little too harshly and I can offend people. Which isn't my intent.

yatzr

i think this thread has turned to crap. you're either for downloading or you're not and I don't think that anything that anyone says is really gonna change somebody's mind, so it's basically turning into a fight. I don't think that we can come to a definite conclusion as to if its right or not, and I think the only people who can are the artists who made the music, and last I checked there's about as many musicians that are for it as there are against it.

I'm not gonna say if its right or wrong...I'm only gonna say that it shouldn't be up to the RIAA to choose. If an artist wants his music spread through downloading, I don't think its the record label's place to say otherwise...but on the same note, if an artist doesn't want his music spread through downloading we should respect that.

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Derwood

The argument that you download to preview the CD is somewhat faulty. You don't need Kazaa for that. cdnow.com has real audio clips of all the tracks on all the albums they sell for you to preview.

I'm the one who said that if you can't afford it then you don't deserve it. The wording there wasn't as clear as I wanted it to be. What I was trying to say was that a CD is a product with a price. That means that those who can afford the price can have it, and those who can't, can't. I don't feel entitled to an Escalade when all I can afford is a Neon...

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

drawerfixer

I've gone completely to the Apple Music Store now...

I know it's not out for PCs yet, but I hope people are 'moral' enough (or whatever) to pitch a buck for a song they lick.

I think it's the best solution yet.

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They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

The Atomic Boy

While I am a strong believer in downloading music to preview a cd before you actualy buy it I think that file sharing has showed us that the old saying of morals are just the fear of being caught is true for more people than you may like to think. I'm not saying that everyone who uses file sharing networks are wrong but many people do abuse them.

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All problems no matter how complex can be solved with fire and/or duct tape.

losfp

I've actually bought MORE CDs because of p2p sharing. I've checked out heaps of music that I might never have bothered with, and as a result, I've bought more music. Agree though, that the system is open to abuse - I know plenty of people who say they will never buy a CD again, when they can just download it from Kazaa or whatever.

I think Apple's music store is heading down the right path - offering people the chance to purchase single tracks that they like, at a price that's not terrible.

Even if I've downloaded a whole album, I will still buy it if I like it. (exception - CDs with crappy copy protection on them. I WON'T shell out just so the record companies can tell me how I can listen to the music)

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Grrr... Argh....

TaLoN

Notice the key word here is should .

Derwood

The video game industry is booming, particularly the non-PC platforms (PS2, X-Box, GC). Those games are terribly overpriced, and yet no one complains about THEM gouging prices, etc. etc. Why? Because at this point, you can't pirate X-Box games. Believe me, if someone figured out how to fileshare Metroid Prime or GTA Vice City, suddenly everyone would be anti-Sony or whatever and claim that stealing the games is justifiable because blah blah blah.

Just because you think you can rationalize the stealing of music doesn't make it right.

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

gariig

I thought I read one place that CD ALBUM sales are actually up from a few years back, but CD SINGLE sales just plummeted to nothingness. So that they clump these two figures together and you can now say that you are selling way less CDs. However, your album CD sales are actually up since file sharing took place. I will try to find this later.

When I bought CDs a lot I got a whole bunch of crap. I would hear one or two songs I liked and get the CD and then one more might be of equal quality but the rest just got skipped. That just sucked! Also, I know a lot of people got singles, but now you download that one descent song and save $4.

The RIAA should have jumped on the p2p bandwagon when the rest of us did. The Apple Music Store should have opened in 1999 or 2000, but they sat on a damned good thing and let the rest of us have a little power. They are going to have to kick and scream to get that power back...I think I hear them yelling right now.

Gariig

TaLoN

????? haven't you ever noticed that it takes 100x the number of people to create video games than it does to create music? music artists make money in so many other ways than cds, video game creaters can only make money from game sales

Derwood

'

i don't know about 100x, but I acknowledge the efforts of many people. I'm just saying that people would justify stealing games too if they could be fileshared

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

GakFace

Alright then, An artist should only sell his painting for the cost of supplies... the tickets to a concert should only cost how much it is for a singer to use his voice...

Now i could go on, but i just don't feel the need. Have you ever heard of PROFIT? Without PROFIT, one cannot LIVE. Notice this.. if they sell for the COST, then what money is LEFT to use to LIVE. See if they sell for the cost of it, then um someone is gonna be poor. I'm all for them selling it for more than cost, just not 20 bucks. Don't be ignorant, don't be cheap.

I'll download music, but mainly to find music that I like. If I like them, I'll get their CD when I have the cash to do so (and can find them), if not... well why the fuck am I going to keep the music on my computer if it SUCKS? you guys say you're gonna download cause it all sucks.. Why the FUCK are you keeping sucky music on your computer? Thats beyond me... aw well.... Flame.. er um... rant .. ummm..... Elaborate On

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RoboBlaster:
Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

TaLoN

art should be art, not business. as soon as it turns into a money making process, then it isn't art. it is called "selling out". if you guys think that everyone in entertainement should be raping people of their money then go ahead and think that way. im done with this topic

Double D

no profit = no income = starving artist

Derwood

as someone who is an artist (I design lighting and scenery for theatre), I have to say that there is nothing romantic about a "starving artist". It's downright miserable and pathetic. Anyone who is an artist would like to make a living doing their art, otherwise you have to have another job, which takes time/energy from creating your art.

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

LeeRoy

Damn so many good points going both ways ??? Tell you what, I think I'll just sit back, wait, and see how things evolve. It's only music and the music in my head is usually better anyway.

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cant sleep clowns will get me

yatzr

No matter what anybody says, I still don't think it's the RIAA's place to say if you can or cannot download music. It should be up to the MUSICIANS...but just like the RIAA, everyone here is forgetting the fact that many musicians WANT their music spread through downloading. And its mainly the small bands that are being threatened by starvation. These bands want nothing more than for tons of people to hear their music, so why should the RIAA not allow that?

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Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

Derwood

A couple of points:

1. the RIAA, in theory, is supposed to represent the artists' best interests. Thus their lawsuits.

2. If artists WANT their music downloaded, they should feel free to post every MP3 of every song they have recorded onto their own website for free download.

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

yatzr

Thank you derwood, now if you go back up and look at my long post about the record label math, you'll see that the RIAA basically takes the songs away from the artists by nabbing the copyrights...so even if an artist wanted to post his stuff on a website, the record label wouldn't let him because he doesn't own the copyrights to his own friggin music! Now many artists can NEVER get those copyrights back or if they do they can't give them to their family and they go back to the RIAA when they die! This is why the RIAA should be stopped. They are the ones stealing from the artists.

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Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

Eggy

I steal the good and buy the best. Music is an art form, not a business. If an artist really loves to make music but can't get by on it, then they'll do it on the side while they work 9 to 5 like everyone else.

Before I got my computer and CD burner, I bought dozens of albums, none of which I feel have been worth my money. Since I've gotten them, I've downloaded or burned dozens more that would not have been worth spending money on. I've also bought every album I've found that I felt was worth my money.

Hell, I want to be a musician someday. Not because of the money, but because I love music and the way it communicates to people. If I have to work a normal job on the side to get by, so be it.

But these greedy RIAA fuckers make me sick.

RaGe2012

The RIAA is a bunch of terrorists...I say we get the Air Force to start bombing the crap out of THEM.

Anyone who supports the RIAA is a huuuuge fat honking tool.

__________________
"Yesterday we bowed our heads to kings and bent our necks to emperors. But today we kneel only to truth..."
- Kahlil Gibran

SuperMidget

insider: if you happen to check back, would you be doriangrey (sp?) from the [H]?

IMO Apple is taking a step in the right direction. Once it comes out for the PC I plan on using the service (unless they jack up the price).
As for downloading music, I do download music. In my defence, I own the album for about 50% roughly. It is faster to download a song than rip it from .cda to .mp3. However, the rest of it is music i cannot find most anywhere else (in Rural South Dakota if it ain't Country or Pop, it doesn't exist) and have you ever tried finding Phil Ochs or Ty Tek on the internet?

Other than that, I tend to be stay out of it. Both sides have good arguements. Until another method comes out that is cheap and effective, the RIAA will be hard pressed to keep up with the geeks of the world.