Jinn

I don't think .5 would complain much about being uncomfortable.

A third (3.0) sure does.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

blahblah454

I currently drive a minivan to haul shit around, and to take the wife her kid on a road trip to Ontario last summer. It gets a stunning 23 (or so) MPG, it is so brutal. I try to drive that POS as little as possible. But the train is my normal means of transport.

Oh yea, the van is a ford windstar, 98.

Willravel

We've got hydrogen busses in San Jose, but they're fucking expensive as hell. It's something like $50 a mile. I mentioned the idea of simply using solar panels to create electricity that would extract hydrogen and oxygen from water instead of purchasing hydrogen from some really expensive vendors, but I was basically ignored. So instead of an initial cost of solar power and a tiny cost for tap water, we are paying $50 a mile on a program that will likely be cited in the future as a "failure of hydrogen in public transportation". Fucking morons.

Plan9

Yeah, I got a great deal on the trade, too. In the words of WillRavel, "...it was almost rape."

If there is one thing I am... it's practical. I'm a frugal fucker, Martian. I don't need a pickup truck right now in life. I probably won't need one ever again. Why pay the money on gas and insurance? The Vibe is very utilitarian albeit station wagonesque. I get the feeling a lot of people could and should do what I've done with their vehicles.

...

I believe family vehicle choices make the gas crisis what it is... it isn't the cost of a gallon of unleaded, it's the fuel economy of the vehicles we choose to drive. I made a choice and now a gallon of gas goes a lot farther for me. Others should follow suit and quit bitching about their unnecessary Suburbans and H3s.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Ustwo

A modern day Cassandra.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Daughter of Priam, king of Troy?

Ustwo

Thats the one.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

lotsofmagnets

mmm. there are 2 (two) marked electric car parking spots on the main street and i missed a golden photo opportunity with one parking space taken up by a supercharged range rover and the other a brand new mercedes coupe. i used to drive a vw golf but now i have the volvo 850 and i still feel dwarfed my a lot of the icelandic cars. what they do is jack up the suvs and put on 40+" tyres on them so they can handle glaciers and the like as well as very bad snowfalls. then they drive them through the tiny rvk city centre streets...

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

MSD

It looks like I'm getting an Audi when I get a new job (reflashing the ECM for high performance has the added bonus of bumping fuel economy to ~38mpg if you cruise at 70mph,) but I'm still holding on to my idea of getting an H1 and getting waste oil from any of the few hundred restaurants in town that has a deep fryer. Taking a guzzling, polluting vehicle out of the equation and turning it into one that runs on free garbage and has a low carbon footprint (and can off-road and crush small cars and children) sounds like my idea of a good time. Plus, if I ever run out of gas I would have a choice between regular diesel and stopping at the grocery store for a few bottles of veggie oil.

What a waste of expensive tires

thingstodo

You really know how to hurt a guy. You think a Camry is cheap? It's a less expensicv version of the Lexus ES350 which I would have purchased had it been a hybrid. A GEO is cheap, a Camry is a good, solid vehicle and loaded is very nice. What do you drive? Oh, and you'd better check your facts because the average Camry hybrid won't come close to 43 mpg in ordinary driving. It's rated for 34, 35. You must be confused with a Prius that actually get's more than 43 mpg.

As far as nuclear rods in a car, come on - now you're being silly and insulting if you think that's what I thought I meant. Please don't put words in my mouth. My wife does that enough for me.

And the way you talked about Porche struts - how could I tell you were kidding? You basically jumped all over me. By the way, my wife drives a Boxter and the ride isn't that great but it corners like a dream.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Willravel

The 43 thing was keyboard dyslexia. I get it from time to tmie. And I was just razzing you about the Camry. It's a respectable vehicle, of course. Toyota makes very dependable vehicles, some of the most dependable on the road. Still, 34 mpg for a hybrid doesn't seem like much of a deal. The non-hybrid Civic gets that. And the Civic hybrid is rated at 45 mpg highway.
Of course I was also kidding, but the point I was trying to make is that you weren't offering an alternative. You mentioned Europe using nuclear energy, but that only translates to transportation if it's stored electricity, like an electric car.

thingstodo

I feel much better about you.

I've driven a Civic and a Civic is no Camry. Small car vs. much larger car. We need to compare apples to apples. That's why the Geo comparison hit me wrong. And 34 mpg is pretty darn good when the non-hybrid 3.3 L engine of the ES 330 only gets 23 mpg. I've basically cut the relative value of a gallon of gas by 50%. That will save me $800 a year if I drive 15K miles and the price of gas is $3.50/gallon.

This is a relational thing as I'm not going for the absolute best milage but am going for a balance of comfort, style and economy. With leather, auto climate control, electric seats, basically all the major comforts of a Lexus, adds up to a lot. Also, all these non-hybrids produce tons of carbon. Yes, I do have a little tree-hugger in me to say the least. It has been said that the air from a hybrid Camry or Prius tailpipe is cleaner that that of the air you breathe in most downtown city areas.

In terms of electricity, I thought you could easily see I was talking about electric cars. Geez! We're talking about powering cars and you're a pretty smart guy so I didn't think hand holding was needed.

We can power everything we need with clean electricity powered from nuclear plants. I've learned a great deal about that over the past few years since I have a nephew that graduated from GA Tech a few years ago with a degree in nuclear engineering. In fact, Europe (France with some other participating countries - and the USA backed out but now wants in) has a new nuclear technology using fission. You'll see that hitting its stride by 2020 or sooner.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

host

<h3>Tough "Love":</h3>

The least I ever paid for a gallon of gasoline was 19.9 cents, in Galveston, TX, in 1972.....and the most was yesterday, $3.359.....

Time is growing short for the US to either order it's military to "pay back" the investment made in it by a sudden furious attempt to confiscate every other country's nuclear weapons as a prelude to controlling commodities, or.... drastic cuts in US military spending are needed to free up funding for a mass transit buildout and alternative energy technology. We in the US use four times the energy per person than an equal share by population would allocate us, so we're going to feel what is coming, four times as intensely as a lot of the rest of the world.

ObieX

I've gone from putting $5 in my tank to $10 every two weeks. I'm just glad i work only a couple minutes from my house.

__________________
We Must Dissent.

Willravel

In order to replace oil with nuclear, we'd need to build something like 10,000 nuclear reactors (Breeder reactors). At a cost of $3-5 billion per reactor, that would cost at least $30,000,000,000,000 or $30 trillion. And that doesn't even compensate for rising energy requirements that will continue to rise as 10,000 nuclear reactors were built, which would take about 25 years.

Ustwo

Interesting, and yet people think we can replace our energy needs with solar and wind power?

BTW that link is dead, perhaps you can site the source you got it from since it wasn't your original source?

Edit: Hehe googling it did find it sited in some 'interesting' hits. I liked this ones solutions....

Key changes needed
· Urgent need to reduce consumption of fossil fuels, especially
oil, through:
o lifestyle change - eg greater use of public transport,
using smaller cars, car-sharing, holidaying closer to home
o energy efficiency technologies - eg more fuel-efficient
vehicles, better home insulation
o renewable energy technologies - wind, solar, biomass,
water (hydro, wave, tidal), geothermal
o government policies and measures to support these
changes, eg eco-taxes, carbon trading, regulation, R&D
support
o strengthening of the UN Framework Convention on
Climate Change, especially binding targets on the biggest
emitters (the largest being the USA) based on
"Contraction and Convergence" principles (Ustwo note, its now China, expect the left to ignore)
· Urgent need to stem the global flow of weapons, especially
small arms in poorer countries whose environmental resources
are under stress and conflict may occur
o need strengthening of UN programme of action on
eradicating illegal small arms
o need countries to agree a UN arms trade treaty
o USA, which has highest levels of small arms in private
hands and is world's largest arms exporter, is resisting
these efforts
· Urgent need to support post-conflict reconstruction and
conflict prevention activities
o Only receives a small amount of funding
· In 2005, the world spent over $1.1 trillion
($1,100,000,000,000) on its military forces - continuing a
rising trend. Diverting at least some of this spending could
help achieve the aims above, reducing the likelihood of
conflict.
· Reducing dependence on military forces as a way of dealing
with international problems will also help reduce their carbon
emissions!
· The power of corporations, especially military corporations,
with their ability to lobby for favourable policies needs to be
curbed.

http://www.frosinone.org/scuola/diri...%20Warming.pdf
Ah hippies...

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

filtherton

Stupid hippies, what with the wanting to reduce the amount of weapons the US exports, international dependence on military force, and air pollution. Good thing the neoconservative agenda has been so successful, otherwise it might become glaringly obvious that the "hippies" just might have a point.

Ustwo

Being naive is quite funny.

Let me translate into hippese..

Man the UN man can like stop all this by like stopping the corporate nazis in the US man, and like they will stop this man but like with peace instead of guns man.

The us man has too many rednecks with guns man and they are trying to keep their murder man and then they export their murder, its all the USA's fault man, there would be no violence without uncle Sam.

Man like, man we need to use bombs less man, and like do things peaceful like man and man it will save lots of trees man, and like stop global warming, oh god I think I'm going to throw up.

Such thing are kinda cute in young adults, but it grows tiresome.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

No. Reduction is key. Finding more efficient ways to burn what fuel we have left and find ways to not spend the fuel seems a better strategy than a continued trend of using MORE energy.

noodle

I love mine, too. And I think it's Red or Fresnelly that has one, too. My apologies to the one that doesn't.

I drive a ton for work. Last week it was over 450 miles. I get reimbursed 50.5 cents per mile. Minus the 16 miles each way to the office, regardless of if I even go there during the day... stupid IRS... but it's not enough to really offset the damage done on my car. I need oil changes every six weeks.

So to answer the question and quit threadjacking...

Gas prices are killing me.

__________________

ASU2003

For solar/alternative/etc., what we need to do is find a way that individuals can produce the power that they require. I know it would cost me about $35,000 to become energy independent at today's prices. That means, no power plants, no gas companies, just some unknown companies to supply me with geo-thermal heat, solar panels, and electric car parts (for Chevy S-10). 98% of my trips could be done with an electric car (under 10 miles). And I live close to the stores and other things I do. I know I could survive with no gas for my car if they rationed it or something.

Gas prices won't effect me, but they will effect the prices businesses charge, and the salary minimum wage earners will demand.

But, I did ride my bike to work everyday last week (5 days, 3 miles each way). My car gets about 24 mpg in the city, so I only saved about $5. I haven't refilled my gas tank since March 14th though.

tisonlyi

The link you put up there is just a chap saying that ethanol can be produced from switchgrass on a +ve return, high yield basis, the Cornell and Berkeley study I linked to via PhysOrg reports:

If you've got some more info on switch grass that puts some flesh on the bones of the statement through npr, then I'll be out setting up switch grass cooperatives immediately.

Ahh: I went and nosed around for some more info... it seems switchgrass has the potential in some people's eyes, but is a red herring in others'...

The thing that has changed is the oil price, not the cost of the technology.

Above $35 dollars per barrel shale and sand oils start to become economical to extract, above $50 per barrel and they become commercially attractive to extract. The only problem is oil > $50 per barrel. I think, from memory, that economists reckon that world growth will slow by 1% for every $25 in the oil price over $20? something like that.

One good thing for Canada though, it becomes the nation with the second largest oil reserves while oil is over $50 per barrel (tar sands and oil shales are counted towards viable reserves then) - Venezuela is number 1.

Gracias Gringos! Viva Chavez!

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Baraka_Guru

My intent was to point out that this is still in development. I hope we don't give up on this due to initial barriers. We've not come this far without overcoming such barriers. There's a reason why we don't rely so much on whale oil anymore.

I'm not referring to the cost of the technology; I'm referring to the application of it. If it weren't for the enhanced oil recovery method known as steam-assisted gravity drainage (SAGD), the amount of oil extractable from the oil sands would be greatly limited. Surface bitumen as it is has a recovery rate of 20%, whereas those applying the SAGD method get as high as 60%. That's a huge difference. For decades in the tar sands, they've been experimenting with various methods to extract deeper oil. I'm guessing there are still developments to be made. Oil price is the biggest factor for development, but the impact of the technology should not be underestimated.

We should be working toward a way to make switchgrass and other materials (e.g. waste vegetable oil, and other inedible plant materials) a viable source of biofuel. It's entirely possible. I say don't give up.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

I think you've been fighting the hippies for too long, you're starting to see them when they aren't there.

One doesn't need to be a hippie to think that the U.S. is currently blocking efforts to limit CO2 emissions internationally. One doesn't need to be a hippie to resent the amount of weapons that U.S. companies sell to other countries. One doesn't need to be a hippie to believe that the world would be better off if certain entities were less inclined to use military force.

Cynthetiq

didn't we go over what hippies were and where to find them?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

filtherton

Maybe you should mention this to ustwo, he keeps having flashbacks from his anti-anti-war protesting days.

tisonlyi

The con I'm referring to is in the solving of the problems we have with regard to cheap oil, cheap fuel and cheap energy for the _now_. The recent investments in corn, sugar cane, etc, etc on both sides of the pond... for the most part are gov. sponsored con jobs imo. There is probably some valid research going on, but my cynical mind sees Mr Bush delivering (well, regurgitating) a speech mentioning switch grass that has "Go Back To Bed" written all over it...

Solutions to cheap oil problems for the now do not currently include biofuels, because they currently need cheap oil to produce... :s

(Oh, and don't mention whale oil... the last thing we need is the Japanese using more of that kind of biofuel... )

AFAIK, that method is the only reason those heavy oil shales, sands and tars are economically viable at ~$35 rather ~$100... IIRC, even lovely light crudes become commercially unattractive to produce at oil prices of around $15 to the barrel (if i remember the harrowing cries from opec in the mid-late 90's correctly) and uneconomical sub $10 per barrel... Barring miracles, i don't think there's an awful lot further to go after the improvements that were made in the 80's for those very heavy oil shales and sands...

Also, the oil companies will surely remember the burn they 'suffered' from very heavy crudes when oil dropped from ~$70 per barrel in the early 80's to $20 pre barrel and less in the 90's.

And animal materials... that turkey/chicken gut blender seemed like a 'nice' option from what i read about a while back... but there'd be a knock on effect in animal feeds... :s

No giving up in research for biofuels, but we should be applying technologies NOW to reduce demands on cheap oil asap...

Things like this:
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q9vkkFNkE44&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q9vkkFNkE44&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Together with emergency roll-outs for electric vehicles, liquification of coal for trucks, etc, etc...

The fallout from permanently higher, post-peak cheap oil prices could be pretty scary... we need to delay that as far into the future as possible, and the clock is running down fast.

From wikipedia's peak oil entry:

That's pretty much the West's cheap oil supplies. Prices will be heading towards Jupiter from then on.

We won't be heading back to the stone age like some wacky predictions, err, predict, but oil prices are going to keep on climbing for quite some time. We need serious, nigh on draconian mitigation measures in favour of electricity and some sort of great leap sidewards away from the internal combustion engine - and fast... or else we won't be able to afford synthetic rubber tyres for our electric cars.

Anyway, this getting a touch off-topic i think... sorry!

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

filtherton

Fortunately, or unfortunately, we've got coal for centuries.

tisonlyi

Well, yeah... but it isn't a cheap oil alternative... in the same mold as shales, tars and sands @~$35+ to be economical and ~$50+ to be profitable. Also, i'm not sure if you can get the same variety of chemicals out of coal as you can from oil. Diesel and a jetfuel additive, yes. all the other goodies we use up in our fertilizers, plastics, paints, oils, lubricants, waxes, dyes, etc, etc, etc... I'm not so sure.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Tully Mars

Nice post.

You know we put a man on the moon. We had an X-project and a private organization put a man craft into space. How come we can't have a E-project where the winner gets a billion dollars to develop a viable option to the I.C.E.? Second thought- make that a billion euros, really who's going to take you serious if you're offering dollars?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Ustwo

I think you are too sensitive, now take a bath and get a hair cut.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

tisonlyi

Like, woah man, where's he supposed to find hot water, a bath AND a barber at this time of night on the commune?

Heavy trip, man.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Baraka_Guru

I think your powdered wig is on too tight.


* * * * *

Thanks for post #107, tisonlyi. I think with some exceptions, we are generally on the same page.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Filtherton, hippie is a compliment. A big one.

Ustwo

It was funny when you said it in the other thread too.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

filtherton

Well yes, but as far as making electricity, which can be used to power transportation systems, we'll be covered.

I only cut my hair and bathe for potential employers, so hook me up with a salary and free dental work and I'm yours.

Well, any insult from ustwo should generally be considered a compliment. I mean, the guy's so busy, it's an honor for me that he'd take time out of his busy day ironing his white dress shirts, polishing his "I'm a professional white man from the 60's" glasses and shaking his fists menacingly at children to notice li'l old me.

Baraka_Guru

Please, both hippies and Babbitts are guilty of burning way too much fossil fuel.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

thingstodo

I don't know if I buy those numbers. Not based on the numbers my nuclear engineer nephew was sharing with me. And I think he knows his stuff. The alternative is to keep building coal-fired plants. And you have to begin sometime, someplace. Plus, the fission thing he's talking about procides substantially more power from one plant.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Willravel

The alternative is to reduce use considerably, something that will be necessary one way or another eventually. What we should be doing is getting jobs closer to home and biking there. What we should be doing is putting refrigerators and water heaters underground and powering them, along with the rest of the house, with 100% solar energy. The government should be giving massive tax breaks to solar companies, so that they can pass on the savings to consumers.