For solar/alternative/etc., what we need to do is find a way that individuals can produce the power that they require. I know it would cost me about $35,000 to become energy independent at today's prices. That means, no power plants, no gas companies, just some unknown companies to supply me with geo-thermal heat, solar panels, and electric car parts (for Chevy S-10). 98% of my trips could be done with an electric car (under 10 miles). And I live close to the stores and other things I do. I know I could survive with no gas for my car if they rationed it or something.

Gas prices won't effect me, but they will effect the prices businesses charge, and the salary minimum wage earners will demand.

But, I did ride my bike to work everyday last week (5 days, 3 miles each way). My car gets about 24 mpg in the city, so I only saved about $5. I haven't refilled my gas tank since March 14th though.

The link you put up there is just a chap saying that ethanol can be produced from switchgrass on a +ve return, high yield basis, the Cornell and Berkeley study I linked to via PhysOrg reports:

If you've got some more info on switch grass that puts some flesh on the bones of the statement through npr, then I'll be out setting up switch grass cooperatives immediately. :thumbsup:

Ahh: I went and nosed around for some more info... it seems switchgrass has the potential in some people's eyes, but is a red herring in others'...

The thing that has changed is the oil price, not the cost of the technology.

Above $35 dollars per barrel shale and sand oils start to become economical to extract, above $50 per barrel and they become commercially attractive to extract. The only problem is oil > $50 per barrel. I think, from memory, that economists reckon that world growth will slow by 1% for every $25 in the oil price over $20? something like that.

One good thing for Canada though, it becomes the nation with the second largest oil reserves while oil is over $50 per barrel (tar sands and oil shales are counted towards viable reserves then) - Venezuela is number 1.

Gracias Gringos! Viva Chavez! :cool:

My intent was to point out that this is still in development. I hope we don't give up on this due to initial barriers. We've not come this far without overcoming such barriers. There's a reason why we don't rely so much on whale oil anymore.

I'm not referring to the cost of the technology; I'm referring to the application of it. If it weren't for the enhanced oil recovery method known as steam-assisted gravity drainage (SAGD), the amount of oil extractable from the oil sands would be greatly limited. Surface bitumen as it is has a recovery rate of 20%, whereas those applying the SAGD method get as high as 60%. That's a huge difference. For decades in the tar sands, they've been experimenting with various methods to extract deeper oil. I'm guessing there are still developments to be made. Oil price is the biggest factor for development, but the impact of the technology should not be underestimated.

We should be working toward a way to make switchgrass and other materials (e.g. waste vegetable oil, and other inedible plant materials) a viable source of biofuel. It's entirely possible. I say don't give up.

I think you've been fighting the hippies for too long, you're starting to see them when they aren't there.

One doesn't need to be a hippie to think that the U.S. is currently blocking efforts to limit CO2 emissions internationally. One doesn't need to be a hippie to resent the amount of weapons that U.S. companies sell to other countries. One doesn't need to be a hippie to believe that the world would be better off if certain entities were less inclined to use military force.

didn't we go over what hippies were and where to find them?

Maybe you should mention this to ustwo, he keeps having flashbacks from his anti-anti-war protesting days.

The con I'm referring to is in the solving of the problems we have with regard to cheap oil, cheap fuel and cheap energy for the _now_. The recent investments in corn, sugar cane, etc, etc on both sides of the pond... for the most part are gov. sponsored con jobs imo. There is probably some valid research going on, but my cynical mind sees Mr Bush delivering (well, regurgitating) a speech mentioning switch grass that has "Go Back To Bed" written all over it...

Solutions to cheap oil problems for the now do not currently include biofuels, because they currently need cheap oil to produce... :s

(Oh, and don't mention whale oil... the last thing we need is the Japanese using more of that kind of biofuel... ;) )

AFAIK, that method is the only reason those heavy oil shales, sands and tars are economically viable at ~$35 rather ~$100... IIRC, even lovely light crudes become commercially unattractive to produce at oil prices of around $15 to the barrel (if i remember the harrowing cries from opec in the mid-late 90's correctly) and uneconomical sub $10 per barrel... Barring miracles, i don't think there's an awful lot further to go after the improvements that were made in the 80's for those very heavy oil shales and sands...

Also, the oil companies will surely remember the burn they 'suffered' from very heavy crudes when oil dropped from ~$70 per barrel in the early 80's to $20 pre barrel and less in the 90's.

And animal materials... that turkey/chicken gut blender seemed like a 'nice' option from what i read about a while back... but there'd be a knock on effect in animal feeds... :s

No giving up in research for biofuels, but we should be applying technologies NOW to reduce demands on cheap oil asap...

Things like this:
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Together with emergency roll-outs for electric vehicles, liquification of coal for trucks, etc, etc...

The fallout from permanently higher, post-peak cheap oil prices could be pretty scary... we need to delay that as far into the future as possible, and the clock is running down fast.

From wikipedia's peak oil entry:

That's pretty much the West's cheap oil supplies. Prices will be heading towards Jupiter from then on.

We won't be heading back to the stone age like some wacky predictions, err, predict, but oil prices are going to keep on climbing for quite some time. We need serious, nigh on draconian mitigation measures in favour of electricity and some sort of great leap sidewards away from the internal combustion engine - and fast... or else we won't be able to afford synthetic rubber tyres for our electric cars.

Anyway, this getting a touch off-topic i think... sorry! :)

Fortunately, or unfortunately, we've got coal for centuries.

Well, yeah... but it isn't a cheap oil alternative... in the same mold as shales, tars and sands @~$35+ to be economical and ~$50+ to be profitable. Also, i'm not sure if you can get the same variety of chemicals out of coal as you can from oil. Diesel and a jetfuel additive, yes. all the other goodies we use up in our fertilizers, plastics, paints, oils, lubricants, waxes, dyes, etc, etc, etc... I'm not so sure.

Nice post.

You know we put a man on the moon. We had an X-project and a private organization put a man craft into space. How come we can't have a E-project where the winner gets a billion dollars to develop a viable option to the I.C.E.? Second thought- make that a billion euros, really who's going to take you serious if you're offering dollars?

I think you are too sensitive, now take a bath and get a hair cut.

Like, woah man, where's he supposed to find hot water, a bath AND a barber at this time of night on the commune?

Heavy trip, man.

I think your powdered wig is on too tight. :D


* * * * *

Thanks for post #107, tisonlyi. I think with some exceptions, we are generally on the same page.

Filtherton, hippie is a compliment. A big one.

:lol:

It was funny when you said it in the other thread too.

Well yes, but as far as making electricity, which can be used to power transportation systems, we'll be covered.

I only cut my hair and bathe for potential employers, so hook me up with a salary and free dental work and I'm yours.

Well, any insult from ustwo should generally be considered a compliment. I mean, the guy's so busy, it's an honor for me that he'd take time out of his busy day ironing his white dress shirts, polishing his "I'm a professional white man from the 60's" glasses and shaking his fists menacingly at children to notice li'l old me.

Please, both hippies and Babbitts are guilty of burning way too much fossil fuel.

I don't know if I buy those numbers. Not based on the numbers my nuclear engineer nephew was sharing with me. And I think he knows his stuff. The alternative is to keep building coal-fired plants. And you have to begin sometime, someplace. Plus, the fission thing he's talking about procides substantially more power from one plant.

The alternative is to reduce use considerably, something that will be necessary one way or another eventually. What we should be doing is getting jobs closer to home and biking there. What we should be doing is putting refrigerators and water heaters underground and powering them, along with the rest of the house, with 100% solar energy. The government should be giving massive tax breaks to solar companies, so that they can pass on the savings to consumers.

Really jobs closer to home? People go to where the jobs are, some will move closer, but not all. People balance it with what they consider "quality of life." Your quality of life is not going to be my quality of life, nor will it be anyone else's on this thread. They may be similar but they will not be the same.

You seriously want to live underground?

You've not every lived anywhere that has been a basement have you?

The government already does offer many tax incentives to the solar companies and to those that install solar panels and that the government should be subsidizing those businesses.

People should take it seriously under consideration when applying for jobs, though. Even ignoring that commuting often adds a great deal of stress, and stress is linked to numerous health problems, it simply makes more sense. I used to work in Mountain View, which is a 30 minute drive from my home, but I now work downtown, which not only means I'm about 2 miles away, but it also means I can take the lightrail. These considerations mean I can sleep in longer, I avoid traffic, and I pollute very little.
Not being a refrigerator nor a water heater, I'm not sure where you're getting this.
Not only have I lived in a basement, but I liked it. Not only did I like it, but I'm actually seriously looking into earth sheltering as an option.
MORE! I WANT MORE! MUHAHAHA!! But seriously, the more solar panels are produced, the cheaper they will be. That's the ultimate goal: cheap solar panels for everyone.

>> So...how have gas prices affected you? Has your standard of living changed? Have you made lifestyle changes because of it? <<

One place I notice it in the price of eggs, which has sometimes been triple what it was last year. I wondered about this for a moment and decided that it was not only the high price of getting the product to market, but also that corn has gone up in price too because of farmers selling for alternative fuel.

Edit: I still eat eggs most anytime I want in a high-spirited way, and will continue to do so.

What if the eggs are being sold as alternative fuel?!

As well as turkey guts is what I read.

People aren't you. There are some people who in your area travel 3-4 hours everyday to have a paying job. You should know that what you're proposing is next to impossible in most major metropolitan markets where housing is a huge expense. It's not as simple as waving your hand and decreeing it be so.

Grammar and punctuation. I read it as you wanted to live underground, and then you added:
There's a reason why basements aren't prevelant in California.

I don't want solar panels. Our buildings house 1657 units. There isn't enough area on top of the buildings to give enough electricity to make any real impact, except the cool hip factor of saying that your building is "solar". We also don't have enough sun days here in NYC to justify the costs. We do studies every couple of years to see if it is feasible.

It would be if I hadn't lost that lamp. But really, people should take it into consideration, though. What do you do again? Something with computers?
No, but having a refrigerator and water heater better insulated, like they would if they were in in the ground, would help to make them a lot more efficient.
That's a myth. There are plenty of basements in California, they're just required to meet a higher standard by the county they preside in. I have a basement and a bomb shelter myself. Both survived the 1987 earthquake without a scratch.
You don't need "sun days" to create electricity. Thick meto areas like those you live in could be compensated for by building solar arrays in desolate areas with plenty of sun (Arizona and New Mexico?). What I'd like to do is have people pay into one big fund and then build for everyone, but everyone hates how well socialism works, so build your own.

You know who else liked living underground?

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4...ockeyesgu7.jpg

But they were Neocons. That just raises a whole host of questions. :confused:

I like the blonde one on the right. Plus I'm happy I just paid $0.25/gal less for racegas than I did last month, but I'm not sure why that is surprisingly holding price or going down but it probably has to do with different taxation on "non road use" fuels. Otherwise, my 25 mile commute each way to work which I've been doing for over 30 years ...now sucks even more than before. Not only the gas prices dig deeper into my pocket, but as will alluded to, I wish I had that time for myself as it would add at least 1-1/2 hrs to time I can spend with my family and friends. No way I can find a suitable job closer to home so I just factor this into my "when to retire" equation.

Holy shit... it's David Bowie.

They take it into consideration, they look at how much money they get paid and how much mortgage or rent they can afford. Now what? They realize they cannot live close to work. I can walk to work. These are MY sacrifices and quality of life. Again, my quality of life is not yours. Some people think I'm nuts to live in the city. I think they are nuts for having a 2 hour LIRR train ride.

so there we are. you wave your hand and now what? Just because you say it doesn't make so. Just because you considered it and it may be a possibility and choice for you doesn't mean it's an available choice for everyone.

Starting with a refrigerator, they are pretty efficient. They lose efficiency when people open them. I believe you are fishing for feelgoodness versus reality.

You shouldn't be driving your tuned mitsu I mean you can do so much more than the gas mileage that gets, why aren't you driving a Geo? Because you choose differently.

Funny how that's where you meant. I didn't mention earthquakes because they aren't the concern. Building a basement costs more money than not building a basement. Building a basement addes additional cost to an already strained housing price.

Oh right, desolate areas, so far away and we'll rely on cables to bring that electricity to our fair city. Well then, there's no reason why we aren't doing that already isn't there? Or maybe there really is a reason.

So you don't think that a refrigerator gains heat from it's environment when it's closed? That's interesting.
I own the Mitsu out of necessity. Have you ever driven on highway 17 between San Jose and Santa Cruz? It's a nightmare... that is unless you've got decent power and modified suspension. Like me! And I dare you to find another vehicle that has 320 hp and gets 28 mpg. I get better mileage than a Mazda Miata and I've got more power than most v6 engines. My car is a poster-child for efficiency.
Funny how you weren't clear.
Welcome to the "this has nothing to do with anything" hour. You brought up basements because you misread my posts and now you're trying to make a point that they're expensive? I never said that basements had anything to do with efficiency.
Of course there is, cost effectiveness. Aren't you reading my posts? We need cheaper solar so it becomes a more feasible solution.

I just am not buying 320 hp and 28 mpg. Ain't no way, no how! I wonder how the other poor souls drive your road that don't have big engines and modified suspension. Not sure I'd like to live like that but that's just me!

And by the way, a water heater in the ground wouldn't work as well as an insulated water heater above ground. My basement will stay a nice 60 F if I left it alone. I don't need to cool it in the summer. In fact, I have to heat it with a gas fireplace to take the edge off. Plus, I recirculate the cooler air throughout the house in the summer when we're not watching the big TV system or doing other activities in the basement.

Good luck with that option. No one is going to reduce. They aren't reducing with the SUVs and large pickups even now with $3.50 gas so what will change?

Government is owned by industry so don't look for those tax breaks any time soon - if ever. Thank you lobby industry.

And I'll have to refer to my nephew. There just ain't enough room for all the solar panels needed. Or wind turbines based on todays generating technology.

Forced induction is a beautiful thing, especially when you've got a good mechanic. He modified an AEM standalone fuel management system and I ordered a custom chip from a friend in AZ. 28 mpg highway, about 24-25 mpg city. So long a I don't drive it like a track car.
I'm not talking about a basement. I'm talking about a lot of high R value insulation surrounded by concrete. You have more space when you build below a house, room that would have to be sacrificed in order to make the water heater more efficient above ground.
How many people do you suppose have switched to compact fluorescent light bulbs in the past 5 years? How many do you think have purchased Energy Star appliances? How many Priuses have sold? These are all reducing use of energy by replacing with something more efficient.

Funny how it's "I need this..." and "other people need to change, not me..."

I have the most efficient car humanly possible for my situation. I even went so far as to spend a lot of time and money to make sure that was the case. How the fuck have I not changed?

Do you know the two most efficient two seaters available in the US? The Smart ForTwo, at 41 mpg, and the Mazda MX-5 at 27 MPG. Do you know what that means? I have the second most efficient two-seater right behind a vehicle that's backordered to kingdom come. Not only that, but I didn't buy a new car, when I could have, which saves even more oil.

If I can shave off some more weight, which is my plan, I can improve my MPG even more. My goal is 32 mpg.

well, then... shouldn't you be doing what you should? I mean why be #2, and not be #1?

oh right, again, other people should change.... and not consider their "necesities and needs"

I'm on the list to get a Smart ForTwo, actually.

Still, I've managed to get a hp to mpg ratio that's probably one of the best available. In the world. Why? Because I'm the only one who's unwilling to sacrifice gas for horsepower. The Eclipse turbo gets 28 mpg stock with 210 hp. I've added an additional 110 hp to that without losing a single mpg.

see again, you're allowing yourself to MAKE CHOICES but stating that other people should not have that same freedom.


again, everyone else should change.

What choice am I making?

Cynthetiq - will obviously is driven to get in the last word in this conversation and pick apart each post line-by-line. And he's obviously done some incredible things with his "special" car so he can deal with a most troubling commute that we are fortunate not to have to face. Will has overcome insurmountable odds to make it to the top of the mountain and we should all heed his advice council. He doesn't need to change; we do.

A vast majority of Prius owners didn't have large SUVs. I do know one guy that traded a Ford F150 pick up for a Prius and traded it back a week later.

I was talking about change from people already moving in that direction. I was talking about the people solidly in the other direction. It's very easy to get someone to do something when they're already leaning in that direction, much like it is easy to manage a good employee. Not so easy when their beliefs havenm't changed because behavior follows belief.

The gas prices don't affect me any more than me feeling bad for my driving friends and relatives. I walk and bike and commute(not out of choice, but because I don't own a car).

You may not feel the price in terms of your own transportation but the prices actually do impact you in the form of price increases on everything that relies on fuel to be produced and transported. I think that pretty much covers everything we spend money on!

I found this article and think it speaks to this thread. Will, perhaps yopu could give this a shot ;-))

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...590/1199/PRINT

OAKLAND COUNTY
Manure keeps recycler trotting
Horse owners send waste to power plant

Oakland County horse owners are taking advantage of a one-of-kind program that offers to cart away manure and convert it into electricity.
Mid-Michigan Recycling is picking up the waste free for farms within 35 miles of the Genesee Power Station or for a low cost for farms within 100 miles.
About 65 horse farmers, mostly in Milford, White Lake Township, Highland, Lake Orion and Oxford, have signed up. So far, Mid-Michigan has gathered more than 11,000 tons of waste and straw bedding.
Oakland has 6,900 horses -- more than any other county in the state, according to Michigan State University, which is promoting the program to farmers. The plant's permit allows it to burn up to 110,000 tons of material from horse farms per year, according to MSU.
"We love the service," said Sean Kelly, owner of Topline Dressage, a Clarkston farm that boards and trains 22 horses. Kelly used to spend $250 every three weeks for a company to haul his horses' bedding and manure to a landfill or composting center.
At the power station, the waste is mixed with dead ash trees and other wood waste to fire generators that make electricity. One 36-ton truckload of horse bedding and manure generates enough electricity to power 32 homes for a month, according to MSU.
The program, which began on a pilot basis about eight months ago, is the only one in the state, according to officials with the state Department of Environmental Quality, which regulates the plant.
Mid-Michigan's Donna Snyder, who arranges pickup of the horse bedding and manure, said the program helps offset the rising costs of hay and horse feed.
"The equine industry has really been hammered lately," she said. "This helps the farmers, it helps us, and it's good for the environment. It works."
Katie Callahan, barn manager Grosse Pointe Hunt Club in Grosse Pointe Woods, pays Mid-Michigan Recycling $800 a month to transport the manure and bedding left behind by the club's 40 horses. Callahan used to pay $2,000 a month to have the mess hauled to a landfill.
"It's a huge savings," she said. "And it's being used for something good."
The Genesee Power Station hasn't always been the subject of such positive commentary.
When the plant was built in the 1990s, the primarily poor, African Americans in the surrounding community sued to block its opening, concerned that the plant would release too much lead into the air when it burned wood from demolished homes covered with lead-based paint.
Local leaders contended the plant was located in their neighborhood partly because of racist attitudes that made it easier to pollute in areas populated by poor people or people of color.
The case eventually was settled with an agreement requiring a reduction in the amount of lead that the plant could release.
State air regulator Mike Masterson said the amount of pollution released into the air by burning the farm waste is the same as the amount released by the plant before it started burning the manure mixture.

Get one in Canada, Smartcars are sitting all over the place in dealerships here.

They're right popular down here in Mexico as well. Was kind of taken abck the first time I saw how small they really are.

Personally I try to walk and or take the bus as much as possible. Even though gas here is still around 2.35 a gal. Diesel's just under $2.

Say, Will - how will a Smart Car work on the rugged highway you travel to and from work?

It will look trendy, jeez

I don't even have a car anymore. I walk, take transit or take a taxi.

Gas is frustrating...I'm already a broke college student and they're making me even more broke. I do drive a VW Beetle though so that eases my gas concerns more than the other idiots I see driving these huge trucks that guzzle gas. (If you drive a truck, then I'm sorry) James and I pretty much take my car everywhere since it gets about 35 to the gallon. I'm looking to get a motorcycle...75 MPG baby. Yea.

Keep your organ donor card up to date.

Huh... I just roll with the cute little cartoon heart on my M-class license.

Thanks for the positive outlook, jerk. :mad:

Being close enough to work to ride my bicycle was a big factor in me choosing what apartment I picked, and has been an equally big factor in the house I have chosen to purchase. It didn't have much to do with gas prices, I just enjoy riding my bike. And now that gas prices are higher its a nice perk.

My explorer gets 18-20 mpg on the highway, and 15-17 in the city. But I dont really drive all that much lately mostly just on the weekends or to the grocery store. once I get all the house stuff sorted out I will probably buy a bicycle trailer so I can haul groceries and other larger items with my bike.

http://bikesatwork.com/hauling-cargo-by-bike/

don't know if I'll go with that model its one of the more expensive ones.

... says the man who sticks his fingers between sharp teeth. Danger's a part of life.

here in canada its around $1.25 per liter :|

around 7-10 years ago. it was 30cents and when it rose to 45-50cents it was expensive :|

i take transit, so im good...get to sleep and/or read my book :D

JStrider, I am actually thinking of moving somewhere that is really close to public transit and such, and I am seriously considering selling my vehicle and walking/biking or using public transit everywhere. Seeing that I could haul all my groceries, even large boxes, with my bike is awesome. I had no idea that they made cargo hauler like that for bikes.

There is a reason why motorcycles are called donorcycles by paramedics and emergency ward employees. I wouldn't say that's being negative, just realistic.

There is a greater risk in commuting via motorcycles.

And I say this as someone who rides.

yup....gas is kicking my ass lately.........$121.9 where i'm at,and that's the cheapest here that i've found.


brutal commute to work everyday and now it costs more too......



fuck sakes.

Giant Eagle Fuel Perks for the win! I just filled up for $2.50/gal

I've lived in the sticks all my life, consolidating trips just comes with the territory.

As we move into summer, the motorcycle becomes my primary mode of transportation (yes, I've had a donor card for 35 years or so). Other than a few obscenities at the pump, nothing really changes for me.

I would say thats negative to say to a beginner. But thats your opinion.
I could care less what you think.

Trailers are good, I have a little one, it's one of the old "two toddler" trailers I took all the fabric off and after this political season is over I'm going to use campaign signs to make a floor and sides. I cruised it around the neighborhood with about 100lb in it and it was kind of a PITA, but usable.

Here's what I'm lusting after right now for everyday cargo carry:

http://xtracycle.com/

I'll probably get the bolt-on "free radical" and then save my pennies for this:

http://www.xtracycle.com/product_inf...roducts_id=122

The Big Dummy is getting rave reviews from everyone who bought one sight unseen. One guy who goes by "Devo" has some great footage on YouTube of his tricked out Big Dummy. Gas hits $5 a gallon and I don't think my stepson is going to even want the Jeep Cherokee we have for him... it only gets 18mpg with a rational adult driving it, I'm sure a leadfooted teen would get 14 or so. His father has a Geo Metro for him. (I hate the safety factor but he's gonna do what he's gonna do).

If I sell the Cherokee I could build a really pimped out Big Dummy instead of cannibalizing other bikes.

Oh, it's more dangerous but I ride a bicycle in traffic. Talk about being exposed!

Just manage your risk, take a riding course and stay aware.

As long as you are not a dumbass and pay attention to both yourself and other drivers, a bike should be fine. You just have to be more aware of other people, and weather conditions, and road conditions. But as long as you are not ripping down the highway and driving like a complete douche bikes are great. It also kind of depends on the city that you live in. You will learn what roads to avoid, and which ones are safe. You may have to drive a little further to get where you want (not taking the direct route) but things should be fine.

I say get the bike! Just be responsible.

I don't get it. Will was talking about the high-powered vehicle he needed for his stretch of commute. What you said didn't make sense in context. Even though it would look trendy.

High gasoline prices? I've hardly noticed. I work from home and whenever I travel my clients pick up the tab. Life remains wonderfully sweet.

I was talking about the gutless Smart car looking trendy

had to buy a mini to save on gas...plus i live in la so it's ridiculous.

Right - meant the previous car Will was talking about...the monster 400 hp, 28 mpg thing. Compared to the smart car. "Gutless" trendy - that's funny as hell!!

well there are much cheaper ways to go then the trailer that those guys make.

for starting out I would try to find a kid trailer used on craigslist or freecycle and put groceries and whatnot in it, for most of your hauling needs I would think that would be sufficient and much much cheaper. and you can even strip out the cloth and put down some plywood and bolt rubbermade boxes to it.

check out bikeforums.net for a good bicycle specific forum, and they have a utility bike section which has great info and has many ideas that will help give you ideas for a trailer if you really want to do it.

If they can make all this happen the Smart Car may be trendy AND affordable to operate!

Smarter electric grid could be key to saving power

MILTON, Ontario (AP) — The glowing amber dot on a light switch in the entryway of George Tsapoitis' house offers a clue about the future of electricity.
A few times this summer, when millions of air conditioners strain the Toronto region's power grid, that pencil-tip-sized amber dot will blink. It will be asking Tsapoitis to turn the switch off — unless he's already programmed his house to make that move for him.

This is the beginning of a new way of thinking about electricity, and the biggest change in how we get power since wires began veining the landscape a century ago.

For all the engineering genius behind the electric grid, that vast network ferrying energy from power plants through transmission lines isn't particularly smart when it meets our homes. We flip a switch or plug something in and generally get as much power as we're willing to pay for.

But these days the environmental consequences and unfriendly economics of energy appear unsustainable. As a result, power providers and technology companies are making the electric grid smarter.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Colorado | Toronto | North America | Ontario | Fahrenheit | Boulder | Lisa | Celsius | Milton | Xcel Energy Inc | Direct Energy
It will stop being merely a passive supplier of juice. Instead, power companies will be able to cue us, like those amber lights in Tsapoitis' house, to make choices about when and how we consume power. And most likely, we'll have our computers and appliances carry out those decisions for us.

Done right, the smarter grid should save consumers money in the long run by reducing the need for new power plants, which we pay off in our monthly electric bills. However, if people fail to react properly to conservation signals, their bills could spike.

And certainly a smart grid that can encourage us to conserve will feel different. Envision your kitchen appliances in silent communication with their power source: The fridge bumps its temperature up a degree on one day, and the dishwasher kicks on a bit later on another.

Smart-grid technologies have gotten small tests throughout North America, as utilities and regulators scout how to coax people to reduce their demand for power. But there's little doubt it's coming. The utility Xcel Energy Inc. plans to soon begin a $100 million smart grid project reaching 100,000 homes in Boulder, Colo.

In Milton, an exurb where dense subdivisions encroach on farm fields, a test with the Tsapoitis family and 200 other households reveals what will be possible — and how much more work needs to happen.

Tsapoitis uses his computer to visit an online control panel that configures his home's energy consumption. He chooses its temperature and which lights should be on or off at certain times of the day. He can set rules for different kinds of days, so the house might be warmer and darker on summer weekdays when his family is out.

The family can override those changes manually, whether it's by turning on the porch light or raising the thermostat to ward off a Canadian chill. But the system guards against waste. If midnight comes and no one has remembered to lower the thermostat and turn off the porch light, those steps just happen.

These little tweaks add up nicely for another person testing the Milton system, Marian Rakusan. He's saved at least $300 on utility bills since the program began in September. Tsapoitis and his wife, Lisa, aren't certain of their savings but say their 2,400-square-foot home has lower energy bills than a friend's 1,800-square-footer.

This alone is not revolutionary, because programmable thermostats and other "smart home" controls let people craft similar resource-saving plans. The big change here is the combination of these controls with that blinking amber light on the switch — where the grid talks back.

Milton's local gas and electricity retailer, Direct Energy, will set those amber dots blinking in an emergency. It might happen a few times in a summer month. Maybe there will be congestion in Ontario's overtaxed transmission network. Perhaps a power plant will be down for maintenance. Or rapacious air conditioners will overwhelm electric capacity.

Whatever the cause, at that moment, this section of the grid needs a reduction in demand, fast, or else outages loom.

People in Milton's test are expected to configure a "brownout" setting on their computers, indicating how their homes should respond in such a situation. In this test, Direct Energy also will enforce conservation remotely. It can raise the set temperature in a participant's home by 2 degrees Celsius in the summer (nearly 4 degrees Fahrenheit), reducing its air conditioning load. The company also has permission to shut off the testers' hot-water heaters and electric pool pumps for four hours at time during these power emergencies.

Tsapoitis shrugs at that aspect of the arrangement. It's better than rolling blackouts. Rakusan, however, says he's not sure he likes the idea of the power company tweaking his home's settings.

Indeed, it appears unlikely that broad swaths of the public will accept remote control from the power company. California officials recently had to back away from a proposal to require remote-controlled thermostats in new buildings.

So a more likely scenario is that consumers will get powerful economic incentives to make those decisions themselves.

Typically we pay a flat rate for electricity, even if sometimes it falls below the actual costs of supplying power at a given moment. In a growing number of places, rates move slightly higher in hours that typically are busiest.

An advanced notion of this will be tested this summer in 1,100 homes served by Baltimore Gas & Electric. Pricing plans will vary, but generally the households will pay the cheapest, "off-peak" rates most of the time. Some testers will pay higher rates every weekday afternoon. And all of them will be subject to "critical peak" periods of even higher charges, declared on as many as 12 weekday afternoons with stress on the grid.

The Maryland utility will have its own version of Milton's amber dots. Most of the homes will get 3-inch-high orbs that will glow different colors to indicate the price of electricity: red instead of their usual green, for example, during critical peak periods.

Even this will probably be a primitive step.

Eventually, the smart grid will let rates fluctuate even more dynamically, depending on conditions. That already happens in wholesale electricity markets, in which power suppliers buy energy from power producers. Now that would extend to the retail level — our homes. The price of electricity would dip when demand is softest, typically at night or on mild days, and rise in periods of strain.

There's only one problem. "Consumers are not sitting at home waiting for the latest signal from the power grid," says Rob Pratt, a scientist with the Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. "To get the kind of widespread response that we'd really like to have, keeping it automatic is real important."

In other words, appliances designed to interact with the smarter electric grid will adjust themselves.

Pratt's lab has already built and tested controllers that can make it happen. And over the next decade, Pratt expects homes to get appliance controls with a sliding scale. At one end people could choose something like "maximize my ease and comfort." At the other, "save me the maximum amount of money." The highest-conservation settings might lead dishwashers to start only when electricity prices are at their lowest, or when wind power has kicked on.

When Pratt and colleagues tested aspects of this in 112 homes in Washington state, they determined the average household's electricity bills would drop 10%.

It says a lot that conservation would be encouraged by the very companies that make money off the use of electricity. But they have no real choice.

Electricity use per home rose 23% from 1981 to 2001, according to the Department of Energy. Blame increases in electronics and appliances, and our decreasing tolerance for sweating through the summers. The Census Bureau says 46% of single-family homes completed in the U.S. in 1975 had air conditioning. In 2006 that was 89%.

Meanwhile, meeting that demand is getting trickier. Raw materials that fuel power plants are soaring in price and being eyed more skeptically by regulators concerned about air quality and greenhouse gases. And that's even before the next U.S. president, as seems likely, supports caps on carbon emissions.

"We just can't keep building more coal plants," says Roy Palmer, head of regulatory affairs at Xcel Energy.

So until some bountiful and clean power source can be delivered cheaply, electric utilities are pressured to extend the generating capacity we already have.

The effects of well-chosen reductions in usage — an idea known as "demand response" — can be huge. A mere 5% improvement in U.S. electric efficiency would prevent 90 large coal-fired power plants from having to be built over the next 20 years, according to Jon Wellinghoff, a member of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission who advocates demand response.

Demand response isn't new, but it's existed in low-tech form. Utilities in capacity crunches would call companies and request that they do something to help, like idling an assembly line for a few hours. In some states, residents can get rebates if they let the utility trigger radio transmitters on their air conditioners that cycle the chillers off for a few minutes in strained summer hours.

Now though, technology can do demand response in a more sophisticated way.

Companies such as EnerNOC Inc. have built software and sensor networks that can remotely dim lights or raise refrigerator temperatures inside businesses, in an instant. For homes, upgraded electric meters can offer near-real-time feedback on energy use. And new generations of appliances and thermostats can coordinate with each other and electric meters over in-home wireless networks.

The key hurdle is figuring out how to pay for it all.

The equipment in Milton's tests costs more than $1,000 per house. That will come down with larger-scale efforts, and utilities will save money as networked meters free them from sending out human meter readers each month. But for bigger smart-grid investments, energy companies generally want regulators to let them recoup the costs through higher electric rates. That can get thorny.

This grid concept is odd. It makes sense for it to happen. But reading the article something caught my eye: turning off the porch light automatically at midnight. What if your friend is planning to stop by at 2am? You'd have to go to some trouble to program it properly. I think I'd only go for it if I had a simple override all switch that I could hit at will. I don't like the thought of a glitch malfunction at some central office impacting all of my electronics.

This reminds me of something a friend told me about his time in China in 2001. Water was turned on for only 2 hours every day. Specific hours to use electricity: 6-9pm or some such. They had a government-mandated outage for all utilities that lasted a week.

No thanks.

Let's just say that I wanted my first car to be a Subaru STi....


....but I drive a Honda Accord...:thumbsup:

It affects me mentally but it doesn't affect me financially as much as you'd think.

I think increasing gas prices are a problem but I think in general the problem is overstated (financially).

I fill up once a week, so it takes me about $160 a month on gas. So basically from the good-ole gas prices to now I've lost about $100 a month. $100 a month isn't enough to affect me financially because I made it my goal in life to make a reasonable amount of money.

I hate when people complain about gas prices and coast everywhere and suck the last drop out of the pump and do all these tricks to get better gas mileage and then eat out 10 times a week. Guess what, if you didn't eat out for 2 days you would save the entire difference of the new gas prices.

I also hate when people drive 5 miles in the opposite direction to get gas for 1-2 cents cheaper. I don't care what anyone says, you're losing money doing that.

I also hate when people make fun of my car because it takes 93 premium gas instead of 87. Sorry but if the $3 a tank difference between 87 and 93 gas is a big deal to you then you need financial planning advice from a pro.

So yes, the -$100 sucks every month but it's not nearly as big of a deal as everyone says it is (I'm referring to people who drive the same length as I do per week, not the 100 mile per day commuters).

It's gotten so bad, I've had to start blowing pro family values congressmen for gas money.

Hell, if that isn't the post of the month it's got to be at least the post of the week.

I laughed so hard my dogs just spent a solid two minutes trying to figure out if I was having a stroke.

If you are having trouble paying for gas you need to find an alternative way to go then a car. I ride my bike but that doesn't really work for everyone, I'm also lucky enough to live in a city with incredible public transportation. Most cityies are not that lucky though.

I just got a company vehicle and a company gas card. So how are the prices affecting me? Not one bit anymore.

That would become a taxable benefit though, wouldn't it?

- gas is hovering around $1.25 out here, what is it in Cow-town?

PDX? or Maine?

PDX does have great public transport. Public transport, IMO, is part of the solution. I'm in Mexico now and you can get anywhere, even out to the most remote village via public transport. Larger towns are connected with clean, new, A/C larger buses and out in the rural areas little vans called "Combis" are the way to go. Combis are basically a mini van, usually VW or Toyota. They're everywhere and they're cheap.

I go for weeks at times without driving. If I have to run into Sam Club or Costco I have to drive, just impossible to get a Costco load on the bus.

Gas is also around $1.25 here. And the personal miles are taxable, but the business ones are free.

Still, the taxes I will have to pay on the miles vs. having to pay insurance and pay for gas and maintenance is just insanely low. I go from paying insurance every month, paying for oil changes, paying to wash the vehicle, and paying for gas to: paying like 10 cents (if that) a km. Gas alone costs more than that a km

$1.394/litre here

That equals about $5.57 per US Gallon

Not much. The joys of public transportation.

Caveat - the increased price of gas is reflected in many of the goods and products I purchase, including food. Also, the CTA may increase the fare prices in order to compensate for the increased casts of running a fleet of buses.

yeah food prices have increased something like 6% in the last 3 months.

I checked the gas prices today and they were $4.20 for the 89 I use. I have to fill up tomorrow. I dread the day.

Gonna cost me $50

When I got my car, I filled up for $32

$4.20 ironic price

I'm finding I'm driving less. Not in a "Oh I need to save the planet or my money way". More in a way like it feels instinctive. I can't describe it.

There are still ways I could save money on gas were I to do it. For example I was thinking the other day that not only do I use gas driving to lunch, I'm paying more for lunch or not getting as healthy of a lunch as I could were I to bring a lunch.

I think that now Memorial Day weekend is almost behind us, we will return to being complacent and just paying up at the pump as we normally do.

I filled up the work truck the other day... cost me $140....


Thank God I am getting reimbursed for that.

I always shoot for a tank or less a month. I pay about $10 more a month now.

Xepherys and I bought new bikes a few weeks ago, apparently just in time. Gas here hit $4.09 on Friday and I'm really not expecting it to get cheaper. Like, ever. Boo :(

There are many places we can go with the bikes since we live so close to the downtown area, and having the trailer behind it means we can pick up groceries and stuff, too. Plus, my son looks so badass in his helmet and sunglasses. I wish I could post a pic.

Unfortunately, since the Detroit metro area is so huge and their public transportation system is so fucking pathetic, we'll probably be completely screwed in September when we'll both be commuting 40 miles/day to and from school/work.

At least our cars get 30+mpg. *sigh*

fuck.

It hit a new high here, at $1.29/litre. This is a cent higher than the average price just post hurricane Katrina.

So what is the big emergency for this sudden spike in gas prices? In the span of approx 8 weeks, I have not heard of any real high profile issues in gas producing regions. It's very suspicious to me.

* edit:
I was thinking about a driving vacation this summer, to someplace like Charleston SC. All the press out of the US is stating that driving vacations will be down this year due to the gas prices, so I was initially resigned to staying close to home, maybe do an east coast (Maritimes) tour. But if it is only $4.20 per gallon, no problem baby! Charleston here I come!

It is causing me to think twice or more about jumping in my car to run off somewhere. If I don't really need to go, could walk or get there otherwise, or could share a ride I am more likely to do just that now days. I only hope it is having similar impact on others.

Doesn't affect me at all. I have a 60 mile commute whether I want it or not. Buying a new Fit last year instead of a used e46 is seeming smarter and smarter, however :thumbsup:

I don't know really care what I'm paying for gas right now... as it's an expense I incur as part of my travelling. I find it interesting that I pay as much for gas as I do for the entire car rental. Last trip to Los Angeles it was $48 to fill up the PT Cruiser.

Tonight we're going to NJ, I'll top off my tank which I usually do in NJ since it's about $.30/gallon cheaper AND it's full service!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1..._cars-2007.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1..._cars-2008.jpg

2007 ---------------------------------------------------------------2008

and the traffic... it's a tad lighter...

I pretty much don't drive anywhere I don't have to. Ride my bike, walk or just stay put. It really is ridiculous! :(

$1.434/litre.

Yesterday on my way home from work the word was geting out that the price was up at some places already. A few still had their prices at $1.309/litre. The line-ups were huge.

Anyway, $1.434/liter is about about $5.73 per US gallon.
The difference from 1.309 to 1.434 equals about a 50cent per gallon increase in a couple of minutes.

I am considering carpooling to work on some days but that would mean spending time on the drive in with the person I would have to carpool with. There is only one person at work who lives in the same area as me.

The traffic was never that bad here, but it is pretty much the same as far as I can tell.

CNN posted a story about how there is a 4% decrease since last year.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/26/gas.driving/index.html
I would say that is accurate around me. There are still the same people driving to the same places as before.

Where do you live Sticky? In Calgary it is still $1.299 at most places.

I'm on more airline e-mail lists when I can count. I got this this morning and found several good idea. Hopefully this isn't seen as a "plug" for this airline, I've never flown them. For all I know they suck. But here's there tips on saving gas:

(And no I didn't forward this to anyone, just posted it here. Thought some of it was good info and some even funny.)

Dear Tully,

By now you all know us as being the Kings of Shock Marketing with promotions like the MILF, WTF and more. These promotions are designed to be entertaining, humorous, and of course, impactful. However, our message today is very serious at the core…but you might find a bit of humor nonetheless.

Oil prices are out of control and have more than quadrupled over the past few years. There are a number of factors that have influenced this, but consumption is central to the cause and the only factor that we can control. Americans consume several times the average fuel per capita than the average person on the planet and with oil prices continuing to shoot up it has hurt us as Americans even more than the rest of the world and will cripple our economy if we don't take action now.

The list below is what we refer to as the “Spirit 30/30/30 Plan.” If everyone begins acting on this list of 30 tips in the next 30 days, it will cut fuel consumption by 30% or more, save you thousands of dollars over the next year and will save consumers billions if we all adopt these practices. (And oh…as an added bonus, forget about that South Beach Diet…if followed properly this plan could also help you shed 30 pounds.)

We are proud to say that Spirit is already doing its part to conserve fuel as it has recently upgraded its fleet to all brand new efficient Airbus aircraft. As a result we are using about 30 percent less fuel compared to our old aircraft. This is just one of the many ways Spirit is able to offer low fares.

We challenge you to participate in Spirit’s 30/30/30 Plan by implementing as many of the following 30 steps as possible. (And we encourage you to read to the bottom…because you know Spirit, there’s sure to be an added incentive in it for you too!)

1. Carpool – sharing a ride with up to 3 other people can save thousands of dollars. Here are a few online resources to help you find a few folks to share a ride with: www.erideshare.com, www.icarpool.com, www.carpoolworld.com. If you drive a vehicle that gets just 20 mpg, you can get 80 mpg per person if you carpool with three others. Heck, some of you might make new friends…but you could lose some too if you don't invest in breath mints.

2. Use public transportation and leave the car at home. With the money you save, splurge on the breath mints for this option as well…and share them when necessary.

3. Flying Spirit not only can save you 30%* or more compared to others, we use up to 30% less fuel than many other carriers using older technology aircraft. Still bring the breath mints if you like…but stay away from chewing gum onboard – it’s hard to clean up.

4. Walk or ride a bicycle for those short hops. You'll save gas, you won't have to hunt for a parking spot and it will help you get that buff beach bod you've always wanted just in time for summer!

5. Pay your bills online and get off the junk mail lists. Snail mail not only needlessly wastes fuel (and paper), it requires you to store worthless information in your brain like what stamp prices are these days.

6. Turn up your air conditioning a few degrees and encourage your workplace to do the same. With that new figure you'll have from walking you can wear something skimpy and you'll feel just as cool.

7. Drink tap water instead of buying plastic bottled water. Get a filter to improve the taste or quality. But drink plenty of water, it can improve your health and might assist in even further toning up that new bod. By now, you should be well on the way to dropping those pounds.

8. Did you know many people waste over 30% of their food? All of that food you throw out not only wastes money, but think about the tractors that burned fuel to farm it, the trucks that burned fuel to get it to the store, and the energy used for processing and packaging. Then you throw out this waste and a garbage truck burns fuel to haul it away. Plan out your meals in advance and consider planting a garden. It’s a great way to tan your new fit body!

9. Keep your car tuned up, change your car’s air filter, regular oil changes, etc. You get the picture – you’re car will be as stylin’ as you. Treat your car like your first goldfish, love it as much as you can and feed it constantly, until, finally, it dies.

10. If you only get 15 mpg and you don't have a practical carpooling option, consider getting one of the many vehicles that get 30 mpg or more. If you drive 15,000 miles a year you need 1,000 gallons of gas a year. At 15 mpg and $4 per gallon for gas you will spend over $4,000 a year just at the pump! Consider the fact that if you start getting 30 mpg with a new vehicle, the $167 a month you'll save on gas will put a major dent in that new car payment. Since you're going to be in shape and look great, why not show it off in a new car.

11. Instead of getting a new car, get a scooter. You could get 80 mpg or more, parking is easier and it’s still a decent way to show off that new body. And who knows, you could just start a new breed of consumption conscious scooter gangs!

12. Improve your gas mileage by more than 10% by not speeding. Just think of the money you’ll save when you stop getting those speeding tickets. It would more than cover the costs of having those teeth whitened, which you’ll need to go along with your new bod. Or you could use the extra cash to have hot flames painted down the side of your 80 mpg scooter.

13. Get the excess junk out of your trunk. OK we already know you’re working on getting your hind end in shape, but seriously, we’re talking about all the junk in your car’s trunk here. Stop lugging around stuff you don’t need.

14. Convince your boss that you need to do your part in conserving fuel and saving the environment by working virtually. This could cut your commuting gas consumption by 100% and the time you save from not driving will allow you to work even more…or perhaps frees up the time needed to CALL YOUR MOTHER!

15. With all the gas money you’ll be saving, go buy new compact fluorescent bulbs for your house. They may cost a little more, but they can cut your electricity usage by 80% and depending on your situation, can cut your bill (and energy consumption) by 5%. Just don't forget to turn them off when you don't need them. And given your new figure, you may find that you want to turn down the lights more often. (Don't forget the breath mints.)

16. Get rid of that gasoline powered mower and replace it with a self-powered reel mower. They are inexpensive and you won’t have to buy gas for it. Plus, it’s just another way to tone up and tan that new you.

17. Stop air leaks in your home (we’re not talking about your husband’s hot air here) and cut down your AC drain. There are lots of tips online that will help you find leaks and fix them. Heating and cooling is most likely your biggest use of energy in your home, so ensure you are using it efficiently.

18. Join Spirit’s $9 Fare Club. In addition to getting an unbeatable deal on that much needed – and well deserved – getaway, it definitely makes that new fuel efficient set of wheels within reach.

19. Your hot water heater is probably the second biggest consumer of energy at home. Check the setting and you can probably lower the temperature. You'll use less water anyway given your new body will probably be quicker to wash.

20. Turn off power strips and unplug electronics when not in use. Stand-by power can account for as much as 20% of home energy use. This simple step could save you hundreds per year. Now you’ll have enough extra cash for that full body wax, which will also cut down on your shower time since you won’t have to shave every day.

21. Make sure your attic is properly air sealed and insulated. This could save you hundreds per year. And who knows what treasures you’ll find up there that you could sell on eBay.

22. Install a programmable thermostat and save $100 a year. A variety of choices are available at the FREE SPIRIT Mall at mall.spiritair.com. Shop in the “Green Living” category. Not only will you find the perfect programmable thermostat and other items needed to carry out the Spirit 30/30/30 Plan, but you’ll also earn FREE SPIRIT miles.

23. Use less hot water by installing a low-flow showerhead and save $150/year.

24. Get a home energy audit and save up to 30% on energy bills. Pay for it with your FREE SPIRIT MasterCard. What? You don’t have one yet? Click here and you’ll be on your way to the gift of free travel for taking step 22 to conserve energy.

25. Keeping your tires properly inflated saves on fuel economy and lengthens the life of your tires. If the nearly 250 million registered passenger vehicles in the U.S. were only 7% underinflated and brought their tires up to the specified level, together they would save about $23 billion per year. Trust me…your tires will thank you. Not only are they getting the tender loving care they deserve, but they appreciate that you have less junk in your trunk and you’re new trim self is less of a strain on them.

26. Choose Energy Star appliances, air conditioner, water heater and windows. This could save you hundreds of dollars each year. Put the money saved toward that plastic surgery you’ve been putting off.

27. See if your local electric utility has Smart Meters available in your area. Smart Meters allow you to communicate in real time with your provider about your electricity usage and helps you save money by shifting some of your consumption to off-peak periods.

28. Plan your summer vacation to the Caribbean with Spirit. If you join our $9 Fare Club (click here), an out-of-town trip on Spirit is cheaper than paying for the gas to drive up the road for a getaway. (OK…so we repeated the $9 Fare Club, but what can we say….this is our promotion and the bottom line is that you owe it to yourself to at least check it out. Why wouldn’t you want to be among the elite that receive $9 fares?)

29. Take cold showers – you’ll probably need them anyway...yes, it’s that hot bod thing again.

30. 30. Tell at least 30 other people about the “Spirit 30/30/30 Plan” in the next 30 minutes by forwarding this e-mail to everyone you know. As a token of our appreciation for your help (told you there would be an added incentive in it for you) we have given you a coupon for $30 off our everyday low fares***. Simply enter “GREEN” in the discount box at www.spiritair.com. And the savings don’t stop there – visit spiritair.com to take advantage of our incredible sale with fares from $30 each way.**

This is a serious call to action for Americans. Spirit is calling on all Americans to do their part in reducing fuel consumption by at least 30%. Simply start implementing as many of these 30 simple tips as possible during the next 30 days and together we can save billions.