No, because nothing reinforces that statement. An entire country cannot be held accountable for one of its random denizens murdering someone else who is taking a hike in a bridal gown. Now, if Turkey started murdering every peace-walker who wandered through their country, then yes, we could start to make a case for that position... but until that happens, no. The power of such figures, at least for me, does not source from their deaths. It comes from what they were able to accomplish while they were ALIVE. Anyone can die, especially for a good cause. The death act in itself does not confer an apotheosis.

To me, it only works if she had a death wish going into the project. This would require cynicism, not naivete--which is what I believe was the real case (from the bits I've read--perhaps I've missed something). RB, again maybe I missed this somewhere, but where is the statement that says what her project was designed to engender? I agree with you, if she indeed intended for her "art" to take place upon her death, but I haven't seen proof of that yet.

:sad:

I owe someone some cash.

abaya: i posted the artist statement earlier in the thread (no. 21) and the interpretation that the project is in a bizarre way still operative with this outcome in no. 70.

it's a good project in that sense---while obviously it was not designed to turn out as it did, it still works.

and we are all performing the fact that it does.
except now there's the added twist of wondering whether by doing that, we're aesthetising a rape and a murder.
which we are, no matter what any individual post says--once you start treating this as an example of a type and then shifting to generalized explanations for it, you're in that game. and it is an ugly game.

I've already explained this.
It's a "thing are so bad there, someone couldn't even walk across your country without being murdered" thing.
I never said that was where their power came from. No one starts out a martyr. It's what they do before their death that's galvanized by their death. I never would have heard about the wonderful thing this young woman was trying to attempt had she not been killed.

My apologies then, I must have missed it. I was not following the whole "human nature" discussion of this thread... just had been thinking about it today and wanted to jump back in to the discussion. Do you think that this could not have happened in any country, even in your own backyard? What about that crazy dude who shot up the Amish schoolhouse in PA? Should we Americans be ashamed of him personally? If you think so, then okay... we are really just on different wavelengths here, and no amount of discussion is going to amend that. I'm truly curious... how has this wonderful event changed your daily living, other than inspiring you to post more on TFP? Has it inspired you to walk across Mexico wearing that placard?

Thank you... I did indeed miss the link at the bottom of that post, to the artists' statement. Intriguing, but to be frank, it's just way too postmodern for me to take seriously.

I do agree that we are all performing the fact that it "worked," but I see that as correlation, not a direct result of what the act intended. It is definitely ugly, no bones about that. Isn't martyrdom really about "creating a type," in the end? The act of death becomes bigger than the person... and that is what I dislike about it.

A person died here, tragically. I would never minimize that. The fact that she died from a wholly preventable cause does not increase or decrease my pity for her, but it also does not incite even greater pity for her than it would for the average person being killed tragically, anywhere. It is what it is.

performance art is a curious bidness. of that there's no doubt.

i have no opinion about pippa branca's motives or assessments of risk involved, btw--i don't think they're knowable and they aren't relevant in any event.

like i said, obviously the piece was not designed with this outcome in mind--but it's not the first such piece.
i don't think it was designed around suicide, nor was it designed with the idea that she'd be raped and murdered.

for suicide as art, think mishima.

It's extremely unlikely in San Jose. We have a very low crime rate, especially for such a large city. There are some places in the US that are messed up, though, and I do feel badly that they are in such disarray. I'd like to do something about it, in fact.
In some minor ways, yes. We should, even among separatists, promote an open and welcoming environment for children to report sexual abuse. Had the milkman been discovered to abuse young people before the massacre, the lives could have been preemptively saved.
I've become aware that Turkey is possibly a lot more dangerous than I had previously suspected.

Well, shoot... f you had stated that from the get-go, then I would have seen that point as being more valid than blaming an entire country for one murder.

I've learned, or at least been reminded, that you are extraordinarily stubborn. :D Not a bad thing, as that would be the pot calling the kettle black, etc. Just an observation...

It's actually pretty interesting watching you folks hash out opinions. Seems clarification is key to understanding.

Did you see "Top Gear" do their american roadtrip from Florida to New Orleans? I'm pretty sure they were almost killed and definitely chased out of one of those southern states for the slogans they had written on their cars. Obviously the camera crew and the British accents was not enough for the locals to realise they were *joking*.

I think that willravel was ashamed for all Americans and sent a letter to TopGear staff, the BBC, and the Royal Family.

I don't give a damn if you are predisposed to want to commit crimes-sex crimes or otherwise-at some point, you, as a human being, make a choice. And that, if anything, is human nature: The simple but profound ability to choose your own actions. I have thought a good many despicable thoughts in my life and sure, maybe I'm genetically engineered or somehow society played its part to make me think or want these things, but there comes a point when you decide to do something or not.

I completely agree that society and genetics can play a large role in people's behavior, but I think perhaps that we have forgotten that to be human, you make choices every moment of your life. This woman made a horrible choice, just as the man who raped her did. Yeah, maybe somewhere in the woman's past something instilled in her a foolish sense of trust in humanity, and perhaps the man's genetics urged him to commit this crime.

Choice. It sucks to be human, huh?