04-12-2008, 07:57 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
follower of the child's crusade?
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"World Peace" hitchhiker murdered.
She wanted to prove that the world wasnt such a dangerous place.
I suppose it is a bit disrespectful to say, but her killing is somewhat ironic. Quote:
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04-12-2008, 08:16 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-12-2008, 08:23 AM | #5 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
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Location: East-central Canada
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-12-2008, 08:23 AM | #6 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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04-12-2008, 08:29 AM | #7 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-12-2008, 08:31 AM | #8 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
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Location: East-central Canada
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By your judgement, the world should be ashamed. What you say here doesn't mean much to me, will. Sorry.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-12-2008, 08:38 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Maybe if more people gave two shits, things might actually change. |
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04-12-2008, 08:44 AM | #10 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
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Location: East-central Canada
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Quote:
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-12-2008, 08:49 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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by that statement bak is correct, there is NO place in the world that should not be ashamed.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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04-12-2008, 08:53 AM | #12 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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It's not about the shame, but being motivated to actually do something to fix the problem. Her murder could have been avoided, just like almost every other murder in every other country, had people stepped forward with potential solutions and the tenacity to see them through.
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04-12-2008, 08:58 AM | #13 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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All murders can be avoided in some fashion, but removing them 100% would be removing free will from everyone.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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04-12-2008, 09:09 AM | #15 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Psychologists will never get rid of murder any more than they will get rid of anger, envy, or jealousy, biologists might. Not sure if in the long run thats for the best.
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04-12-2008, 09:14 AM | #16 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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I also dont get the Turkey should be ashamed comment.
The blood is upon the hands of the killer, not the whole nation. In 2006 a girl I went to school with was murdered by a serial killer in Ipswich (Stephen Wright - who was sent down for killing 5 women) - a lot of things went wrong in her life, and around her, that lead her to the situation she was in when she was killed - but I know for sure who is guilty, and it is Stephen Wright, not England.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-12-2008, 09:15 AM | #17 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Ah, "human nature". There's really no such thing. There are certain behavioral patterns that are motivated by biology and environment, but no "nature" to speak of.
Some places on the planet have extremely low crime rates. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita The discrepancy cannot be explained by "human nature". |
04-12-2008, 09:21 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-12-2008, 09:24 AM | #19 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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04-12-2008, 09:25 AM | #20 (permalink) |
Eat your vegetables
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Location: Arabidopsis-ville
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This is a terribly depressing story.
Mainly because someone entrusted their fate so completely to an imperfect humanity. There are some places in our world where women should not travel in small groups or without a man. In our travels, Tt and I have met several women who were backpacking across Eastern and Western Europe. Some had the goal of seeing the world on their own. While this is an understandable stretch of independence, I was always concerned for their safety.
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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy Last edited by genuinegirly; 04-12-2008 at 09:29 AM.. |
04-12-2008, 09:27 AM | #21 (permalink) | ||
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Location: essex ma
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i know that i should be reacting to what happened to her. but this is kinda interesting. here's a longer story from a turkish news service: Quote:
so first off, will's response is also that of the representatives of "the turkish people" who were interviewed for the article. but here's what i don't really get: a piece or action like this would be about the documentation. she had a cool outfit (there's a photo in the source-piece) and the idea was nice--but it'd be about the photos, about the narrative of the experience--because the experience itself would disappear as it happened. so i'm surprised that she was doing this piece by herself. this is not in any way to justify what happened to her--i am just a bit perplexed by the fact that she made this decision, not only because it put her in danger (which she had to have suspected, despite the naive "i want to be able to count of the kindness of locals.." which often--but not always--you can---ESPECIALLY hitchiking, which is a dicey way to get around--i used to do it alot when i was a mere sprat until i had a couple really hair-raising experiences, and i was a bearded boy not dressed as a bride hitching around the u.s....) but also because in a sense it's at cross purposes with the piece as a conceptual action. very odd. a very odd tragic situation. addendum: a little more research and... here's a statement about the project from the alkatraz gallery, which seemed to have something to do with it--it's more complex and interesting a project that it sounds from the mini-blurb: http://www.kudmreza.org/alkatraz/arh...g_bridges.html the webpage of the "artist-brides" is down...
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 04-12-2008 at 09:30 AM.. |
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04-12-2008, 09:28 AM | #22 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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The implication of crime prevention does not really apply to this area.
Drug crime can be prevented by treating addicts rather than criminalising them. Property crime can be addressed to a degree by giving the youth different options. This kind of sex killing really cannot be prevented by any social measure: in any society, in any collection of humans, there will be a certain number who are prone to this kind of atrocity. I have read arguments that sex murder only began in 1888... but I dont believe in them.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-12-2008, 09:32 AM | #23 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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here's some more about the documentation element of the piece:
http://flickr.com/groups/turkey/disc...7604435574784/ very sad. very strange.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-12-2008, 10:26 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
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i usually never disagree on wills comments.. but..he did make a recovery.. however lemme throw a spanner in there..
so lemme get this straight.. if turkey should be ashamed for this, shouldnt all turks also be ashamed for trying to assassinate the Pope John Paul II? based on this reasoning..i think its only fair
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
04-12-2008, 10:29 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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To ignore our instincts and genetic heritage is the mistake of physiologists over the last 50 years, though I thought they were finally starting to understand we are not a tabala rasa to be programed by our environment. Perhaps I am wrong, and maybe they will go back to trying to treat things like homosexuality with therapy again.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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04-12-2008, 10:39 AM | #26 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Biology (genetics) and environment shape us. There's no "human nature". We've had this conversation before. "Human nature" is not a scientific term and has roots in religion and philosophy.
The genetic predisposition to murder could be found if people were looking for it, and behavioral patterns can be picked up at a young age. As for environment, everything from poverty to war cause people to think that murder is an acceptable practice. I don't see anything there that we can't attempt to solve. |
04-12-2008, 10:41 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Location: Iceland
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Yeah Will, I'm not following you on this one... murder can happen anytime, anywhere, to and by anyone. This is just another unfortunate case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
04-12-2008, 10:49 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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I choose to not kill people on a daily basis. I have the choice to do so almost every second of every day. There are some people who cannot make that choice, it's made for them those are "flawed" in some chemical way they cannot help that. But there are those who chose to do so. They choose to murder, they choose to commit crimes.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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04-12-2008, 11:03 AM | #29 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I'm not talking about removal, I'm talking about reduction. Extreme reduction, but reduction none the less.
The problem is that we're not working hard enough. Austria has .9 murders per million people. That should be our goal. The US has 56 murders per million people, for comparison. Turkey has about 38 murders per million people. |
04-12-2008, 11:06 AM | #30 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: reykjavík, iceland
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a question: recentish news here was that a group of lithuanian men took a girl and group raped her in my very neighborhood. who should be ashamed? iceland for not preventing the crime? lithuania for producing the individuals who collaborated in committing the crime? the individuals who committed it or the girl for providing them with a target and an opportunity? murder will always happen or should we look forward to the days of the thought police? sounds like bucket loads of fun to me.
and how does one stop someone from committing impulse murder?
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mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable? Last edited by lotsofmagnets; 04-12-2008 at 11:07 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
04-12-2008, 11:30 AM | #31 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Rape isn't an "impulse murder".
I can't speak to the specifics of the crime or the perps as I'm not familiar with them, but rape can be prevented a number of ways. Women learning self defense and carrying pepper spray or a taser are active ways to prevent rape, along with having a large police force and having citizens that call the police immediately upon witnessing the crime. Not only that, but the good samaritans of the world should do all they can to try and help. Passive ways would include empathy and emotion management taught in schools and by parents. Impulse control would be another important lesson. The most important? Anger management. All of these things have been proven time and again to reduce dangerous and unhealthy behavior in teens and adults when introduced at an early age. |
04-12-2008, 11:37 AM | #32 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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People who commit sexual murders are not of the kind of people who can be reached by "empathy program's" or "anger management"
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-12-2008, 11:50 AM | #33 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Edit: if you add in school psychologists who can spot sexual abuse of the children, it would reduce sexual assaults and murders even more. Last edited by Willravel; 04-12-2008 at 11:53 AM.. |
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04-12-2008, 11:55 AM | #34 (permalink) | |
Eat your vegetables
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Location: Arabidopsis-ville
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They are looking for it. They have found that most males who commit violent crimes have abnormally high levels of testosterone. Link for source., but it is not clear if violent criminal activity drives an increase in testosterone or if the criminal activity is caused by an androgen (male hormones including testosterone) imbalance. People in rural Turkey most likely wouldn't be able to afford or access appropriate treatments, unless you see castration as appropriate.
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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy |
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04-12-2008, 12:02 PM | #35 (permalink) | |||
Upright
Location: reykjavík, iceland
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mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable? |
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04-12-2008, 12:03 PM | #36 (permalink) | |
follower of the child's crusade?
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It is fashionable to call rape a hate crime and not a sex crime, and I think it can be either... but, to take an example, "Jack the Ripper" did not commit sex crimes, but he was a sexual killer. I'm afraid you speak as one who doesnt understand the difference. Thinking that Peter Sutcliffe or Ted Bundy or Richard Ramirez wouldnt have become what they did if they had better "empathy" classes at school is quite sweet... but very silly, and obviously wrong. They were what they were because they were monsters.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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04-12-2008, 12:08 PM | #37 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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If you're going to try and take the intellectual high ground you should probably avoid using the term "monster" to describe someone suffering from mental illnesses. |
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04-12-2008, 12:08 PM | #38 (permalink) |
eats puppies and shits rainbows
Location: An Area of Space Occupied by a Population, SC, USA
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I think I can be a little more disrespectful than willravel when I say that that girl was stupid, and pretty much had it coming. I'll give her some props for hitchhiking, that wasn't so bad, but DRESSED AS A BRIDE? She had it coming in that case. She might as well have had a sign reading "Free Rape" dangling from her neck. At least bring a fucking knife, just in case, like a back-up plan if her hypothesis turns to shit.
Also, I partially agree with Will, while I do think that it's an individual thing and that you cannot hold an entire country responsible for one person, you still have to consider that crime rates are low in many countries and high in others for reasons. Now, I don't know about the crime rate of Turkey, but I have a feeling that everyone isn't eating rainbows and shitting butterflies.
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It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay. M.B. Keene |
04-12-2008, 12:31 PM | #39 (permalink) | |||
Upright
Location: reykjavík, iceland
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the statistic was pointing to the "it is proven" line. who proved it? Quote:
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mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable? Last edited by lotsofmagnets; 04-12-2008 at 12:50 PM.. |
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04-12-2008, 12:43 PM | #40 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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well, it's pretty obvious that the reason for the expressions of collective shame in the hurriyet piece i bit above is that the information about this is travelling around the world on the internet--as is the nature of the piece--and so it makes folk look bad. this is not rocket science---of COURSE folk in that position would be ashamed.
the idea behind the piece makes it EVEN MORE embarrassing than it otherwise would be. what it amounts to--not just as an individual rape and murder, but given the narrative that accompanied the project--->some guy in turkey demonstrates to everyone who reads about this that people are assholes. who wouldn't be ashamed? i expect that had the same thing happened in, say, ustwo's community, he'd be all sackcloth and ashes for the way in which it embarrassed the community as a whole, even as he might also be running his "people are assholes because they're genetic programmed to be assholes" line. but i don't buy any of the genetics arguments. these effectively justify the murder of this person by arguing that it is simply the performance of some in-built characteristic--and this by extension to exculpate everyone involved not only in this but in almost any action anywhere by any one ("whaddya mean? it's in my nature"...this is that odd little story about the scorpion) which seems a genetics-based argument against civilization when you think about it. but in this particular case, it's implication is that the "proper" attitude to have to this story is "o well, shit happens. people are fucked up. next." which i think is a kind of crass little response. little in every sense.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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hitchhiker, murdered, peace, world |
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