Earth Hour
 

Tomorrow, March 29, 2008, between 8:00PM and 9:00PM, please turn off all of your lights and other electronic devices that you don't absolutely need as a part of International Earth Hour.

This is pretty important, in that it gives actual numbers to companies so that they know that the people of the planet are aware of the dangers of climate change and also alternative energies. We're ready for changes.

http://www11.earthhourus.org/

Feel free to join us.

I will make sure everything in my house is cut off when we leave for the Barry Manilow concert tomorrow nite :)

you're a FANilow!??!?!?!?! :eek:

It's not atypical for my computer and baseboard heaters to be the only active electrical devices in my apartment. I don't plan on changing these consumption habits for tomorrow. The baseboard heaters are necessary and I never shut off my computer. This is my one conceit, which I think is reasonable given that my overall consumption is very low; I tend to hover around 12 kWh per day for most of the year, although that may get up as high as 14 or 15 during the coldest winter months. This puts me at less than half the average US consumer and less than 1/3 the average Canadian, according to the numbers I've been able to dig up.

(Source)

Sustainability and long-term habit changes ftw. I don't even do it for the environment; I just don't like having a huge electricity bill.

Call me a hater, but I see this being as ineffective as those 'gas out' boycotts that people are always trying.

Last year the entire city of Sydney saw a drop off of 10% power consumption over the Earth Hour. That's 48,000 cars off the road.

Right. But 10% of power consumed during one hour isn't very much in the grand scheme of things. It is better than the aforementioned gas boycotts (which simply offset gasoline consumption, rather than reducing it) but not by much.

Wouldn't it be better to advocate long-term conservation strategies? Compact fluorescent light bulbs, energy efficient appliances and more efficient usage patterns are the key here. Earth Hour is about allowing people to feel like they're doing something without having to go through the inconvenience of actually making any long-term changes.

Earth Hour is about this. It is for raising awareness.

Au contraire: Earth Hour Everyday

Between last year and this year, how much was power consumption reduced overall in the city of Sydney?

It's less dramatic. 90% of protesting is in the dramatic delivery, so as to attract the attention necessary for things to get done. Imagine if Atlanta, Chicago, Honalulu, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Denver, Miami, Portland, Phoenix, San Francisco, Quebec, Ontario, Toronto, BC, Alberta, Dubai, Manila, Copenhagen, Cardiff, and Dublin all saw a drop of 10% in energy consumption? All of those cities are involved in Earth Hour 2008, whereas last year it was only Sydney. Imagine if Sydney can offset the equivalent of 48,000 cars, that'd be nearly a million cars. In just one hour.

That's fucking dramatic.

I haven't the faintest idea.

If this is the case, it should be advertised as such. Getting people to make a change over the course of one hour on one day of the year is all well and good, but long-term change requires much stronger commitment (and, by extension, advocacy). There needs to be a very strong follow-up that, from where I'm sitting, just doesn't seem to be there.

EDIT for cross-posting:

I understand this, but at the same time it would appear that there was little to no follow-up on it. What should be happening is a bold statement in conjunction with high-visibility advocacy for long-term strategies. Earth Hour has the first part, but doesn't seem to have the follow-up down. Perhaps they should be highlighting the savings benefit? Again using myself as an example, I rarely pay more than $50 per month on my electric bill, and am able to achieve that because of my commitment to being energy efficient. I am writing this by the glow of my CRT. as I see no need to have lights on and am quite adept at navigating my apartment in the dark. All of my light bulbs are CF type, the largest of which is 15 watts. I rarely have the television on, and I don't leave any appliances on when I don't need them. All of these things are concessions that I've made not to save the world (the world does not need saving) but rather to avoid having to pay any more money than is absolutely necessary to the electric company. If it has the benefit of reducing emissions, then that's great.

Here in Canada a couple years back the Canadian government spearheaded something called the one tonne challenge, where they hired Rick Mercer to go on television and challenge Canadians to reduce their carbon footprint by one tonne over the next year. I remember laughing when I saw the ads - given my energy consumption habits (detailed above) and my driving habits (I refuse to drive anywhere that's less than a mile away and in nice weather will walk as far as two miles, which is the limit of my town) I don't think I could possibly reduce my emissions by one tonne without any action less dramatic than moving into the mountains and foregoing all modern conveniences. I do it all not for the environment but for other advantages (health benefits, savings, etc). I've often wondered why this isn't advertised more strongly. Then again, I may just be underestimating the laziness of the general population. Who knows?

Yeah, I don't think that people will really offset anything.

They'll use their laptops on batteries, their PSP, iPod, and other battery using items.

Again, I think it's a feelgood measure to make people think they are actually doing something because they did it once a year for one measely hour.

If you want to do something, change your lifestyle dramatically, not just for 1 hour out of 8,760.

I'm not turning anything off. In fact I will be with some orthodox people who will just be starting to use things since 8pm is when Shabbos is officially over.

Cynth, they already offset almost 50 thousand cars. 10%.

Seriously, this isn't the shift, this is the actionable publicity. It raises awareness. Far more people are participating in this than they did last year, which means the profile of this issue is going to skyrocket.

You want a change in habits or policies? Then raise the public profile of an issue. This is publicity and public relations 101.

If you want my opinion, we're going to hit a crisis before real change will happen. By then, we'll see a huge culture shock when people realize how they live and work will never be the same.

But I also like to think we should do what we can to lessen the blow.

yeah, Vote or Die raised awareness for voting... sure when the stars were found out they didn't bother to vote the hypocrisy was apparent.

I think the same for the carbon footprint, and again don't have much hope for this movement as well.

Absolutely.

Look back at the first Earth Day in 1970. It was a simply a consciousness raising event. It took several more years for the first meaningful environmental legislation.

But I don't think P. Diddy is behind this one. I don't even think he's Aussie.

We are already seeing results of the growing interest in energy conservation.

Last year's Energy Independence and Security Act requires significant greater efficiency in a wide range of commercial/residential appliances (including light bulbs), commercial building standards and vehicle fuel efficiency.

Sorry, I've been complaining about the CAFE standards being low since the mid-80s and again as small truck (SUV) sales soared in the 90s to take over 20 years to make a difference is appalling. Then there is the MTBE/Ethanol stuff which is totally derailing the thread.

I just don't have much hope that it will make such an impact.

Awareness, sure they're more aware. I've done what I can. Now what?

It reminds me of scrimping and saving in my company. I can scrimp and save pennies and dimes when budgeting, but when SVPs above me decide they are blowing the wad for their department because they don't feel they should "suffer" like everyone else, well I just don't see the point to even bother.

Humbug much? :orly:

I save and conserve and people fly in private jets and live in huge McMansions. Yeah, I'm jaded.

I am more impressed with the appliance standards rather than the CAFE standards.....particularly, lightbulbs:

The biggest energy-saver among the standards in the bill are those for common light bulbs (or “lamps” as they are called in the lighting trade), requiring them to use about 25-30% less energy than today’s most common incandescent bulbs by 2012-2014, and at least 60% less energy by 2020.

See and I'm pissed about that. I like the glow of the incandescent bulb. It provides more lighting atmosphere for me than any of the CF bulbs. I haven't found a CF bulb that gives the same warm glow of an incandescent.

To outright ban them is deplorable as far as a matter of choice. Make it expensive via tax and allow me to buy it just like those gas guzzler taxes are. People can buy cars and trucks that get shit gas mileage. Why won't I be able to buy a bulb that I like the way it makes the interior of my home look?

The reason for the delay of the standards until 2012-14 is to provide the opportunity for commercial development of comparable but more efficient lightbulbs.

People say the strangest things
 

This is not a bicycle:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=124705

Earth Hour is also not a bicycle, yet:

Hate to start trouble my first day and all but: Uhhhh, what? Preach radically changing lifestyles and lust over a BMW? Something doesn't quite click. If you need links I can show you really expensive bicycles to covet.

Offsetting one vehicle for another saves little, as I'm quickly learning trying to get out of my cherished '90 Jeep Cherokee into something that will carry my butt and all of my tools through snow reliably (for under $8k, please). Surprisingly, the F150 4x4 would fit the bill circa 2001. Bigger vehicle, smaller footprint. Anything Toyota is out of my price range to increase efficiency. Strange days indeed.

I support Earth Hour and our family will be participating. We will wander around our house with the kids and *think* about what can be turned off or unplugged. Maybe it'll even get my kids to think about phantom loads a bit more.

GO EARTH HOUR!

Cynthetiq, I don't want to pick on you but I saw the major opponent of this protest/advocacy/awakening in this particular thread lust after a brand new internal combustion powered automobile. That tripped my BS meter.

This is not a valid argument. Opposition of Earth Hour and desiring a nice car are not mutually exclusive. For that matter, advocating energy efficiency and moderate usage and desiring a nice car are not mutually exclusive. Cynthetiq's preference for a BMW does not take away from what he's saying in any way, shape or form.

ad hominem, ergo irritus.

I was thinking of curling up with a good book I've been meaning to read...

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1944/warmingfz1.jpg

Someone bought that for me :)

It's not an argument, I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy. How someone can blast an advocacy action for making "no difference" while desiring a car that embodies the entire "drive to work, work to drive" problem baffles me.

I see no ad hominem in my post but your strawman does intrigue me. Please expound.

I would suggest that you need to brush up on logical fallacies.

A straw man is an attempt to distort or exaggerate an argument with the intention of disproving it. An ad hominem attack is an attack on the person, rather than the argument the person makes. Cynthetiq's argument was that advocating change for only one hour of the year has no significant long-term impact on carbon emissions. Your rebuttal, whether it was explicit or implied, was that Cynthetiq's argument is invalid because he likes the BMW 1 series. You did not address his points, but rather attempted to use his character as a means to judge the validity of his assertions. This is by definition an ad hominem attack and therefore invalid (ad hominem, ergo irritus, as we pretentious Latin readers say). I pointed this out but did not exaggerate your arguments and therefore did not use any straw man.

I don't see how opposing Earth Hour and wanting a nice car are mutually exclusive. If anything they're internally consistent, but even if Cynthetiq supported Earth Hour his preference in vehicles would not be relevant as the two address totally different issues. Earth Hour is about reducing wasteful use of electricity, and does not address vehicular emissions. One could support methods to reduce energy inefficiency in the home without supporting methods to eliminate vehicular emissions without any logical conflict.

Obviously you are a student of debate.

I stand corrected. I always thought a straw man was setting up an argument from the opponents view in order to tear it down. I also assumed an ad hominem was a direct attack against the character of the opposition.

How would I logically say that it is hypocritical to deride a protest against excessive energy use and wanting to posses a luxury car?

You wouldn't, because it's not hypocritical. There is no logical inconsistency inherent in opposing Earth Hour and wanting a luxury car. For one, opposing Earth Hour implies (but does not necessarily confirm) an indifference towards carbon emissions, which would be logically consistent with indifference towards a car's fuel efficiency or emissions output. Further, even if we assume that Cynthetiq (as our example case here) does support increasing energy efficiency in the home and opposes Earth Day due to it's perceived ineffectiveness in furthering this cause, we still don't have a logical inconsistency. One may support increased energy efficiency for a variety of reasons, such as economic concerns, opposition to a specific type of power generation (nuclear power, for example) or even out of concern regarding a power shortage. Carbon emissions are one reason to support a reduction in consumer electricity use, but they're not the only one. And finally, a vehicle may be classified as a luxury car and still be fuel efficient; in fact, the BMW 1 series includes a suite of features and design specifications collectively called EfficientDynamics, which are designed specifically to increase fuel efficiency and reduce emissions. Therefore, one may desire a vehicle that's classed as a luxury car and still be committed to 'green' policies.

Your problem here is that you're confusing consumerism with environmentalism; these are two unrelated issues, although they often go together politically and philosophically. Had Cynthetiq made an anti-consumer statement here and expressed a desire to own an expensive vehicle elsewhere, he would be a hypocrite. As it is, there is no inconsistency between what he's said here and what he's said elsewhere that I've seen.

Also, don't forget that the BMW 118d was named 2008 World Green Car. A superb - and luxurious - car to be sure.

When Al Gore moves into a smaller house and David Suzuki stops impregnating women and putting all those extra energy sucking mouths into the world population I'll turn off my lights for an hour.

Hypocrites.

Still reading fairy tales....at your age?

Welcome to the TFP smoore!

Actually, you should spend more time reading and getting to know me. I've never once preached for anyone to radically change their lifestyle. What works for me is what works for me. I'd never impose my way of life upon someone else. I prefer to live by example. I'm not about radical changes, but if you are interested in the change then do the change. As Mr. Gandhi stated, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

I made the lifestyle statement because if you really are about saving the environment and such, 1 hour does something. I don't see this much different than saving $1 day and then when you go out another day splurging $10 when your normal averages are $8. People rationalize things all the time, "I jogged yesterday so I can have an ice cream" mentality is what I'm getting at or even "I did this X thing, so I can treat myself/deserve Y thing." In doing this rationalization, they don't help anything.

You have to have an SUV to haul you and your tools. I can assume from that, you've got a career/job living location that REQUIRES you to drive. The idea "drive to work, work to drive" doesn't apply for me.

I may covet a BMW, but look further at more of my posts, and you'd see that I live in a major city. I do own a car because I can afford to own one. I have many friends who don't even have a driver's license or even know how to drive. I didn't have a driver's license or a car from 1995 until Dec. 2000. I take public transportation EVERYDAY. I can CHOOSE to walk to work EVERYDAY if I want to. If everyone in NYC would bike to work, you'd have plenty of bike storage problems. Not every employer has a bike room. Locking up your bike in NYC on the street? You may just return to see something like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...icycle-002.jpg

I drive less than 8,000 miles a year. I have the odometer and insurance policy to prove it. My 2001 Plymouth Neon has roughly 36,000 miles on it. I drive for complete 100% PLEASURE. My car is 100% a luxury item. It is paid off yet still costs me $325/mo to park the friggin' thing. It is also parked about 4 blocks from my apartment so I have to walk to retrieve it, sucks in the rainy and snowy days. Parking on the street while free (and risk to break ins) is a pain in the ass due to having to move the car every other day due to alternate side parking rules. If I miss a day it is a $150 parking ticket. While I could have easily bought something that matched my fellow colleagues (income/status) I did not as I am a practical man. Car XYZ still gets you from point A to point B just as fast and just as furious as Car ABC here in the NYC area. Car XYZ will still only get driven less than 8,000 miles a year. My car gets driven approximately 1-2 times a month as a means to go places that buses and railroads do not go easily or on a time schedule acceptable to me or the wife.

So even if I decided to get any SUV I'd still be polluting less vehicular emissions than a you and a majority of the United States.

When I renovated my 800 sq foot apartment in NYC I redid all of the electrical in my unit (building is over 50 years old) to accommodate and protect all the electrical items I would be using, home theater system and a number of computers systems (desktops/laptops/routers/switches.) If you have been to Europe, you may have seen the guest card key switches that you insert when you arrive and remove when you leave. This switch turns off almost all the electric outlets within the room except for the alarm clock. It's a pain when trying to recharge anything while you are out like spare AAA batteries or laptop. I considered installing something like this in our home not because I'm concerned about saving the environment, but because I don't like paying a lot for our electric bill. I did not install it because the costs would outweigh the benefits. The apartment has less than 15 outlets of which 7 are connected to 24/7/365 items. Turning my energy saver A/C off for the day while at work takes more electricity to cool when I get home then it does to cool it in the morning and keep it cool during the day. (I know this because I compared electric bills with both scenarios.) What made more sense was to just make sure I turn off the all the lights when I was leaving each room. A habit that I have had since I was a kid but from time to time I don't because I forget.

Now to connect this back to the OP, highthief expounds more on what I stated about saving money and someone else squandering it. I walk to work and live in a right sized home for 2 people. And there are people like you who have to drive to work, grocery, drop off the kids to school, soccer, scouts... negating all that "saving" and sacrificing I've done.

I'm about to go out for breakfast for some bacon, eggs, and toast. I'm walking there and back, on the way home I can stop by the grocery store or CVS and pick up some items if needed. I could easily choose to drive to IHOP because I love pancakes and hashbrowns. I only do that when I've decided to take the car out for the day.

Maybe follow up with this? :thumbsup:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...Lights_Out.jpg

I have a sad feeling you don't understand the irony of your post.

Anyone notice that google went dark today?

"We've turned the lights out. Now it's your turn"

Not to save energy, but a very cool way to raise awareness.

no but it was discussed sometime last year or even the year before:

doe.gov
and Blackle.com who does it EVERY day. This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not just COOL because you did it one day to bring awareness, it's cool because you do it every day.

I wonder if people would by those stupid magnetic fake ribbon things people put on their cars with 'Earth Hour' in the usual cause spot.

I'd love to see one on an SUV.

Does background color matter..probably not:
Is google's participation in a one-day international public awareness effort good PR....yep.

If you want to rain on the parade, thats cool too. Can I suggest you carry an eco'brella? :)

It's interesting to see the creationists branch out.

Yes, the Earth has been hotter! It's also gone through numerous climate changes that could easily kill billions of people.

Only a "tiny" portion (is that a scientific measurement?) is necessary to change the climate.

Most of Antarctica is getting colder. And the Arctic is getting warmer. That's because more of the warming trends are present in the Northern hemisphere (the hemisphere with the most people).

The media didn't abandon anything, science improved by collecting and processing more and better data. That's how science works.

Global warming (actually called global climate change) has a correlative relationship to stronger hurricanes (and typhoons) according to Kerry Emanuel, a professor of atmospheric science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge. He did a careful study back in 2005 that showed a direct link between sea surface temperatures and the intensity of hurricanes.

...I don't get my science from a penguin.

Nah...thanks tho. I wear a jacket with a hood. I don't believe in umbrellas. After living in the tropics for a while, what the rest of the world isn't really rain, it's more like just a nuisance. Ask Charlataan he'll tell you about real rain... so will Tully.

Regarding the PR, that's a whole different subject all by itself. All these businesses that are trying their product to "making a difference" by sporting pet causes, some of the profits go to whatever the project is. It's become it's own trendiness all by itself.

you're right, cyn--all political gestures are useless.

this extends to the gesture of saying that all political gestures are useless.

so your cynicism about what other folk might find important is as useless as you see the gestures to be-----perhaps even more so, because you violate your own logic when you make the useless move of trying to demonstrate the uselessness of the move.

unless of course, the idea was not to persuade, or even to make a gesture, and to thereby demonstrate the uselessness of your particular move.

but that would demonstrate the effectiveness of a useless strategy of demonstrating uselessness, which would make it useful in a way.

so that's not good.

i'm not sure i see a way of this useless loop.

just saying.

could be. I don't see any way out of the feedback loop either, except actually doing.

Insted of making the effort only once in a while to assuage one's conscience which is quite bothersome to me. I didn't like it as a practicing catholic and I don't like it the guise of general society dogma either.

I'll be sticking one of these babies on my Grand Cherokee V8 and Caravelle Interceptor w/big block.
https://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/1361...cts/ecomid.jpg

text from the website:

Ah, hrm. OK. Thanks for the lesson.

I have a sad feeling you don't know what irony is. (Don't disappoint me.)

Ah yes, "I live in a big city so I don't have as large of a footprint." I can't buy this argument. Your food must travel a greater distance than mine. You can't grow any of your own food. All of the products you use must be brought into this large city. No one ever talks about those numbers and I can't measure the effect.

BTW, I drive because I'm a construction worker. We build the offices people can walk to. It's just how it goes. I'm not negating your savings in any way shape or form. With the Stapleton and Lowry redevelopments (somewhat dense mixed use) I dare say people like me have enabled others to have a smaller footprint. Now they don't have to drive 5 miles for one store, 8 in the other direction for another. They can walk or take decent public transportation, something sorely lacking in the West, to work.

I think it's great you are so thoughtful about energy. Like you, I'm more concerned with my monthly nut than some vague cause. I do like the overall cause but my money matters most to me. You did the "cool all day/cool off at end of day" for yourself instead of taking someone else's word for it. To help educate myself and my family we did a similar thing, we were lazy for one month and I tried to be militant about turning everything off the next month. Spent some $20 on power strips everyone could plug their phantom loads into and saved over $60 in usage. We still use those power strips regularly, the kids realize that less money spent on electricity means more money on desserts and other luxury foodstuffs.

re: the OP: Why disapprove of this awareness? Obviously you are doing this every day but most of us aren't. If people can be shown the effect maybe it will carry over into their daily lives. This isn't just about home energy use, businesses are encouraged to participate also. I believe all of the exterior showcase lights in Denver will be extinguished as well. It's not a feel good "look, I did this" in my mind, it's advocacy that can carry over into our collective daily routine.

Never mind your pretty little head.

This is becoming a trend of yours, this bowing out.

You're right about the trucking of goods into the city. There is little that can be done about that, but in a densely packed place where 8 million people live and work and area of 22.96 square miles. Providing those goods into a more centralized location is still a more centralized location. It amazed me that some of the freshest seafood I have had was in Madrid right smack dab in the middle of Spain quite far from the coasts. Last time I was in the Denver area, it was quite sprawling similar to when I lived in Los Angeles and New Jersey.

There are people here to do grow some of their own food, there are CSAs and Cooperatives. There are greenmarkets where those top chefs shop every day getting the freshest vegetables from the NY state farmers. But if they didn't truck it in, would the items be consumed? The farmers wouldn't have any customers and they'd cease to be farmers. I contend that most basic food products are grown and produced as close to the customer as possible. It makes sense that I get my lettuce from NJ versus California. I have options of blueberries from NJ or Maine.

Now if we were to move to processed products like Tropicana orange juice (Gawd damn it's $3.99 a 1/2 gallon now! used to only be $2.00 5 years ago, $3.00 last year) you're further away from their processing plant than I am.

What does bother me about the produce being brought in is having foreign produce from Brazil, Argentina, China, etc. just so that we can have strawberries and oranges during the off seasons. People need to learn when the seasons are and eat them when they are in season. The whole bottled water thing as well gets lumped into that discussion which is a whole thing all by itself.

I'm not disapproving of this awareness. It's the repetition that I think is more important, ala "The More You Know..." spots and I'm going to take a wild guess you are older than 21 so you may remember the "Knowing is half the battle..."

I find that these single item moments tend to be flash in the pan feel goodness for the moment. I fear that as a society aren't able to strike much change because it's hard. It's not easy changing habits and behaviors. It took me moving from one coast to another country, and even then I was still trying to live like a Los Angleno because not having a car was giving me fits. Learning how to take the bus, railroad, cabs, walking was foreign to me. It's the repetition that makes it happen.

The CAFE standards should have kept on rising because the gas crisis of the early 70s was something that shouldn't happen ever again. Yet, we feel we've done enough, we loosen the belt and stop doing those good things we were doing. I'm happy when they do gain more traction and become something more, but again, people seem to fail me all the time.

Last night at Whole Foods market, I was given a large brown paper bag that I didn't need. I told the cashier that I didn't need it but she had already opened it up and placed 1 item of the 3 in there. On my way out I took out my items and walked back to the line of people waiting for a cashier. I asked if anyone wanted this bag. (Just as an aside WF gives $.10 if you bring your own bag.) I would assume that people who are shopping there are more mindful and environmental but like your arguments earlier in the thread, one has little to do with another. Not a single person wanted my bag. I offered it directly to invididuals on the line so as to not have "Genovese syndrome" against me. It took me offering it to over 7 individuals before an elderly lady in the back stated she would take it. All the young hipsters gave me odd looks like "WTF why are you talking to me?"

BTW that Stapleton development looks like the Truman Show set or any other 80's Speilberg movietown.

Yeah Stapleton and Lowry are so much like a movie set it's comical. The young hipsters with money seem to love it though. More power to 'em, shopping work and entertainment all within the neighborhood and all within 15 miles of downtown. Express buses and even *gasp* cab stands. It's a mixed use suburb where you could easily survive without a car. Most of 'em drive a lot but hey, we're American and cars define us.

Yes, Denver is the epitome of sprawl. Hell, they ran a marathon down Colfax Ave. for a couple years in a straight line. A straight line except through downtown where Colfax winds a little and they didn't even go through all of the 'burbs. Mind blowing. 45 minute commutes are common. Of course, construction workers avoid this by working 0600-1430 so I rarely drive more than 20 minutes.

It wouldn't be all bad if people would actually use the land they have but it's mainly landscaping, trampolines and pools. Screw that, I grow a garden and am tossing around the idea of getting some chickens. BTW, it's not fair to judge a man by the color of his neck. This suburb, Lakewood, used to be all farm. Surprisingly some of my neighbors have goats and turkey. I don't think anyone has a pig though, I assume I'd smell it while out and about. The new suburbs are 3000+ sq ft house footprints on 6000 sq ft lots. McMansions crammed so tight together you barely need a safety net for that damned trampoline. For an example, check out the new development in Highlands Ranch to the SW of Denver near highway 470 and the stuff in between Denver and Parker to the SE. The satellite views are boggling.

I like the idea of economy of scale re: food and products. How do you shop in this sort of environment? Do you carry food home two bags at a time, use some sort of a cart, what? We moved down to the "big city" from the mountains because I saw the writing on the wall re: fuel prices. We still shop on a monthly basis with a buttload of groceries all at once out of habit. I do like being able to just bike to the store to get anything we want at the drop of a hat now, running out of milk in the mountains means you make do without it.

Although it's probably too late now what SHOULD have been done re: getting goods into the city was trains. Trains are great for that sort of thing but there isn't anywhere to put them in most metros now.

I hate OJ and understand where you're coming from about out of season produce. That should self regulate as fuel continues to climb. That's certainly a huge price increase you've seen on your 1/2 gal container in the past 5 years.

That's where I get into this kind of conflict. It's good intentions with poor real everyday actions. I think of it as the gym membership mentality. I'm a memer of the gym that I never go to, but because I'm a member, I feel a little better as opposed to not being a member. I have the option to go and I intend to go one day, but that day never comes. The proof will be in the pudding to see just how much these people actually live and work in the same space. As their job changes, so will their commute.

When I lived in Queens, I used to have a folding cart similar to this one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...iq/NTC_001.jpg

It was not all that effective when I was on my way home so I only used it on the weekends with planned market trips. But normally I carry about 5-8 plastic bags home from a shopping trip. They can be heavy when buying soda or bottled water (old pipes in the building sometimes have rusty sediment and brita filters need to be replaced too often making it too expensive.) Normally, I end up going to the market many times during the week, 2-3 times sometimes @ (about $10-$20 per trip) of course when we are most active in the city we are eating out so I don't shop sometimes for weeks at a stretch. We travelled the past few weekends, Tampa, Houston, and Chicago and had busy weeknights. This was the first market shopping for us in about 2 weeks.

It also makes me more aware of what I'm buying and why. I buy sales for items I know that aren't perishable and make sense. Bottled tomato sauces, canned soups, etc. make sense to buy them when they are on sale instead of full price. Am I really going to eat that frozen pot pie this week just because it's on sale? Probably not so it doesn't get purchased.

I found that when I used the cart, I tended to overshop than when I didn't use the cart. So I now don't have one, and I don't use a shopping cart in the store. I carry what I want to purchase and once my hands are full, I'm ready to leave the store. If I must purchase those small items for sales like this morning, 5 yogurts for a $3, then I use the small hand baskets.

This works for us and our lifestyle, you've got growing kids, I can't imagine you doing something like this, but I do know my Icelandic friends with kids go to the grocery store on the way home almost every night to get the final items like fresh vegatables, cheese, and bread.

Life is too short to always bang your head against walls.

Now and then it can be amusing.

I agree with you completely. You should be more careful, maybe.

Well, I watched the CNN footage of them turning off the lights on the Sydney Opera House and the bridge. Lots of other lights were shining bright.

Not much changed here in NYC, at 8pm I looked out to see the Empire State Building had turned off it's white light. The bridge necklace lights were still on, and most of the city just seemed to be the same. I couldn't tell if someone in their apartment turned off the lights, or just wasn't home.

I'm stealing that. They do have the gym membership mentality. "I live in Stapleton so I don't have to drive to get my groceries. Oh but wait, there's no Wal-Mart there so I drive to Wal-Mart."

Man, I don't think I could overshop. I'm a freezer meat, 25lb bag of rice kinda guy. If I don't eat it this week I'll eat it next week. Nice strategy of only carrying what you can without a basket though.

I really wish I had a market I could go to every day for fresh goods. That's something the "developing world" (and the old world) has on our culture. You know your butcher, you know your cheese maker, you know your baker. The seafood may come from over the hill but SOMEONE in the village knows him, so it must be good. Bad seafood doesn't sell very well.

edit: oh yeah, I was getting laid for Earth Hour. Yeah, I looked at the clock and said, "Oh I should turn out the lights!"... pfft, yeah right. We were pretty dark for the hour, all phantom loads off and the only lights besides basic safety and security were in the bedroom. She's out with her girlfriends right now and here I sit, talking to the likes of YOU.

Well I can report they didnt turn off the lights at the Barry Manilow concert(thank god!!)....couldnt say about the rest of Atlanta lol

I love it. Nice.

I'm not an electrical eng.

But my understanding is that if a significant part of the grid(s) shut down abrubtly, there'd be a real problem for suppliers. I'm talking say 50% load drop in 10 minutes (which Earth Hour surely cannot achieve).

Can anyone confirm that?

Anyways... I'm sure the generators run throughout.

Could not have said it better.

Call me a ludite, I don't believe for one second in the theory of Global Warming. Just another "the sky is falling" idea put forth by a bunch of scientists looking for respect and wanting to attend conferences in Paris. (Bet there won't be a call-girl to be had that week.)

Reasons why I don't believe in Global Warming (other than the above)

1. Mount Pinatubo errupted throwing more Green Houses gases into the environment than all of mankind has since the begining of the Industrial Revolution.

2. There is Global Warming occuring on Mars.

3. The oceans throw off more CO2 than all of mankind.

4. Trees and vegetation need C02.

5. All living animals exhaust C02.

6. The entire theory of global warming is based upon a mathmatical model. Change even one assumption - poof, it's an ice age.

7. There is not enough data on record to be able to say that the earth is warming up.

8. 25 years ago, the same scientists were predicting the impending ice age where we were all going to freeze to death (Carl Sagan was one that I distinctly remember, who later went the "we're all going to boil in our own juices" route. Pass the dube this way Karl.

9. This last winter has been a bitch. Record snow, nonstop cold, and last winter was even colder.

As to the idea of shutting off lights, hmm, last time I checked, electricity was not like gasoline. It can't be stored in a tank. Sure, you might lighten the load of the generating stations, but don't think for a minute that they can power back the coal / natural gas / nuclear reactions to cool off those boilers. The system simply doesn't respond that quickly.

Besides, heaters, refridgerators, AC, hot water tanks, ovens, stoves - anything involving heat transfer - those are the babies that use power. Wanna save power - don't use your AC in the summer.

Also, burning 1 candle produces more CO2 than does burning 1 100 watt bulb (taken at the generating plant). Try throwing as much light as a 100 watt bulb - you'd need a hundred candles.

Personally, James, I think global warming is a reality. The atmosphere is a closed system and its pretty hard to imagine all the stuff we spew into it is not going to have an effect.

My concern is with guys like Gore and Suzuki who do more in a week to add to global warming than I do in a year, yet who are held up to be sages to be listened to at all costs.

I think its funny that google 'blacked out' their page aka made the background black for 'awareness' but never turned it off (at least as far as I saw).

I think there are two rules that many of these activists follow.

#1 - Awareness is what is important, not real change.
#2 - I am not the problem, other people are, and they need to change.

Personally, I think they should fix things like this first:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...loss-large.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...gyFlow2002.jpg

Absolutely correct.

I have many a debate with some of my more left wing friends who love to blame industry for everything.

One friend in particular I am thinking about thinks that taxing industry is the way to go. When I point out to her that industry is responding to demands from people and that ultimately, it is the consumer which must make changes in their lifestyles, she agrees. One time, I told her that I have a far smaller "carbon footprint than her" (and I do) she disagreed (probably because I think the entire GW thing is a pile of steaming crap (see above). When I pointed out that my house is fully insulated (hers is not), my house has a high efficiency furnace (hers does not), I have low flow toilet, new windows, and my car is brand new and put out far less pollution than her ancient Jetta - she tells me that I have renovated my house because I'm cheap, not worried about the environment.

The best was when I told her that if she was serious about reducing her carbon foot print she should reduce or eliminate her travelling abroad for pleasure. (She's a teacher and travels to far off destinations easily 6 or more times per year.) She lives to travel. She was completely offended that I should make such a suggestion, but the fact is that she uses far more fuel in pleasure vacationing abroad than I even come close to.

and that's where I get my gym membership mentality....

I'm sure when absolutely pressed to make the changes she needs to make she'll claim foul because she lives on teachers wages. Of course she could check off the box for Carbon Offsets if she flies Jetblue to those destinations and assuage her guilt in that manner.

baraka, I'm having a hard time understanding that graphic that looks like the NYC subway system

Earth hour has come and gone and the arguments will continue.

At least in the US, we've begun to take action (albeit at a snail's pace with the current administration) with meaningful legislation like the Energy Independence and Security Act.

More to come in '08.

It basically means more energy is wasted (lost) than is used. You don't mean to tell me that you get lost in NYC, do you?

Teachers in Toronto are very well paid.

My friend teaches highschool english and grossed about 85k last year.

My wife, an elementary school teacher, makes more than my salary's worth less than your friend.

It takes years of service to get that high, doesn't it?

I can't wait for feel good, do nothing but raise costs legislation to come :thumbsup:

What a surprise.

We heard the same conservative "feel good, do nothing but raise cost" arguments about the environmental laws of the 1970s - clean air act, clean water act, solid waste disposal act, etc. The results of those acts speak for themselves.

The same argument you made before with your "courage to do nothing" post...

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=148

And of course you ignored my response....I'm still curious to know why you think "doing nothing" at the national level to conserve energy and improve the environment is good public policy.

It must be frustrating to be conservative, always arriving to the party late. I'm sure in 20-30 years U2 will be on board.

If it makes you feel better I didn't ignore it, I didn't read it.

Hours/day.

Being a conservative on this board gets old pretty quickly, most stop posting or move on, the moderates do the same. I keep my happy face by just not reading every post so I don't feel the need to respond. We have communists, insane people, radicals, and a guy who gets a award on race relations from a major who had a staff member resign for proper use of the word 'niggardly'. You can forgive me if I pick and choose my battles and don't respond to every post telling me I'm wrong from people less qualified than I am every time the question of global warming comes up.

From a scientific stand point I feel global warming may be a short term trend, I do not feel we have contributed in any meaningful way to it. No amount of fear mongering will change that position.

Environmentally I am far more concerned about global cooling and when that trend starts again. We are believed to be in a 'short' period of warmth between ice ages. I'd be far happier with a warming long term trend than ice sheets to alabama.

So you really dont want to answer the question why you think "doing nothing" at the national level to conserve energy, reduce CO2 emissions (the US produces 25% of world emissions) and improve the environment is good public policy......because the board has communists, insane people, radicals, etc.?

Cool :thumbsup:

And you wonder why its hard to take you seriously.

Aside from you, I don't think that there is much disagreement about the reality of the earth warming up-- even the current American administration has admitted as much. The disagreement comes in in assigning causes and guessing time frames.

And for the record, I think Earth Hour is as effective as a means of direct energy conservation as Memorial Day is as a means of fostering any long term appreciation for the sacrifices of members of the American military. That is to say, each event provides a lot of band-wagoners an opportunity to put on a conveniently brief public show of support and then return to their day to day life as if it had never happened. It's a chance to pretend that everyone cares for a while. It's a nice gesture, but not much more.

By the time energy conservation is successful it's novelty will be a quaint memory. Which is to say that wide-scale energy conservation will come about as a result of necessity, and it will most likely be anything but a holiday.

What Are You Doing for Earth Hour?
 

This Saturday (March 28, 2009 @ 8:30 pm in your time zone) is Earth Hour.

Don't Forget – 'Earth Hour' Happens Next Week - News and Analysis by PC Magazine

I remember last year. For me, it was: "Hm, don't forget to turn off the power for Earth Hour."

This year, it's: "Okay, what are we going to do during Earth Hour?"

My cousin is suggesting some of us get together and drink beer in the candlelight. That works for me. Simple...low key.

As this event entrenches itself into our culture, I'm sure many of us are starting to see more community participation and unique events.

• What are you doing during Earth Hour this year?
• Do you think this day of awareness will have an increasing influence on our view of energy use?
• Has it affected you yet?

I'm always reminded that I should be doing more to save energy. I think as more things such as this happen, it may indeed influence my habits and decisions. It would be different if I were a homeowner, but as it is I suppose there is more I can do as a renter. Maybe I'll look into it.

I'm going to do it again, for what it's worth.

Grrr... I'll be at work this year, and I don't think I can talk the Olive Garden into shutting down for an hour.

If I wasn't working, I'd be playing cards & drinking beer by candlelight.

I am going to turn every light on in my house so that the fire department will have a reference point to find the house that is ablaze because of someone turning off their lights and burning candles.

But seriously if turning off your lights makes people feel like they are contributing, good for them. We all need to feel worthy once in a while. Personally I couldn't care less.

Not trying to offend anyone but I am more impressed with people who contribute at a realistic, hands on level supporting causes like child poverty, abused women, the homeless. I mean people who are out on the streets helping those who can't help themselves. People who are physically and emotionally touching peoples lives, everyday, not just when the bandwagon rolls around.

Global warming? Saving the planet? Turning off the lights? Can we be any more ambiguous in our efforts to feel so good about something that really takes very little thought or effort?

I guess we all need a cause. I just wish more people were into more immediate causes that will actually do something for someone instead of cliquee, trendy episodes of correctness while drinking their Starbucks, waiting for the hour to be up so that they can turn the lights back on and revel in the artificial sanctimonium to actually think they accomplished something

Burning candles would defeat the purpose. Candles generally use more carbon than a fluorescent bulb.
Does lighting candles for Earth Hour defeat the purpose? | csmonitor.com

The idea with Earth Hour isn't to exchange one form of energy use for another, it's to HALT energy use.

Go for a walk. Hang out with friends (in the dark). Play with your dog. Don't use light.

What about beeswax candles? I'm truly curious. The only candle we have is beeswax, not paraffin, and I wonder if it makes a difference.

At any rate, I'm not sure. I'm conflicted. It's a meaningless gesture on the one hand, and on the other, I sometimes enjoy participating in meaningless gestures.

Hmmm. I'll be in my lab. I'm pretty sure it will mess with my blue-light experiments if I shut off the lights.

I agree that I think the whole thing is a big show. I think that people should make a difference everyday. The posters they had up in the building I work in were classic: 'Supporting Earth Hour to show what we can do.' If they can do it, why don't they do it more often? Although, I'm really not sure what a difference it would make. The Earth was around before us and will be here after us unless it gets smashed by a meteor or something. No amount of energy conservation will save that. Unless it is light sensored and by turning off the lights we'll be able to hide from it.

Where I work, the building gave away free light bulbs yesterday for the Earth hour. I'm going to try it out at 8:30 tonight. The whole idea is crazy and makes no difference just like the 'stick it to the man and don't purchase gas on such and such a date' day.

Allow me to join in on the cynicism. Yes it has a PR purpose, yes it has an impact, although relatively minor, but yes, it is something that most people do to feel good about themselves and then go back to living the same way they always have. It's even more ridiculous with businesses participating.

The gas boycott comparison is quite apt.

Theoretically beeswax releases less CO2, but it still releases some. I think the idea is to stop CO2 for an hour.

I'm still going to breathe for that hour, though - ok?
I probably release more carbon dioxide than a beeswax candle.

I'm just giving you a hard time, Willravel.
If I were home this evening, and not at work, I would celebrate Earth Hour.

i spent earth hour watching the Dubai World Cup horse race on the big screen. they had massive fireworks and the place was all lit up. it was amazingly glutaneous.

i dont think they even give a damn.

go figure

I'd like to say that it is now Earth hour. I have the television on with the DVD Player icon bouncing on the screen, a couple lights on, and 4 computers. Feel the love.

I believe that since I walk or use public transportation I am helping out everyday.

:) w00t! Earth Hour for the win!!!!

I don't participate in this. I do plenty from walking to just about every place I need to go or taking public transportation.

The Blazer game was on. Couldn't miss it!

I'm quite disappointed snowy. I thought you of all people would care about the Earth.

The earth can go to hell...It knows what it did....And that's all I'm going to say about that.

It touched you in the naughty place, didn't it?

Admittedly, watching the Blazers beat Memphis wasn't as entertaining as I'd hoped it would be (Thursday's game against Phoenix was better) but we're getting closer to the playoffs and the pressure is on.

I love the Blazers more than the planet...

I took Jack for a walk. We ran from a skunk. It was an eventful hour.

Nature is not to be trusted
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...y/pedobear.jpg

I turn off everything in the apt except my fridge before I leave in the morning. I only roughly use my computer at night. I guess I inadvertently participated, happy Will?