UKking

I think under enough duress, anyone can confess to anything. So no, I don't necessarily agree with these tactics. Does this not come under entrapment?

Reese

"Your buddy confessed, He said it was all your idea"

I don't see anything wrong with that.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

Willravel

"We have your mother in the next room. We're going to charge her with this if you don't confess."

That's a great way to get me to beat the shit out of a cop and then get charged with assaulting an officer.

So yeah, no.

QuasiMondo

I dare them, I double dare them.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

thingstodo

Why would you confess to something you didn't do unless the duress was physical pain? Then you'd be lying as well and to what purpose?

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Hain

I agree with Will. This is a can of worms that can't taste good. Once you start lying about the wrong stuff to the wrong sort of people, like the mentally incompetent, what justice will there be?

Stone

It's certainly not entrapment. That's when the cops seduce or entice you to commit a crime, most notably a crime you would not have commited on your own had you not been enticed or seduced.

__________________
Stone7

Willravel

or republicans...

Strange Famous

we should be asking whether or not the police force should be abolished entirely.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

But a military government doesn't only lie, they often exact "justice" through execution without trial.

In other words, I don't think this is the question to be asking.


Oh, were you thinking something else could take its place?

* * * * *

Lying to a suspect should render any confession invalid due to the condition of it having been garnered under false pretenses.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Bear Cub

I don't think its quite so cut and dry.

Should they be able to lie to get a legitimate confession out of someone? Yes. The conditions under which they admit to committing a crime doesn't detract from the crime they've committed.


Should they be able to lie and force a FALSE confession for the sake of finding someone to pass off the blame onto for their own benefit? Of course not. It's not even a confession at that point.

Baraka_Guru

This is the problem. Lying to get a confession places a condition on such a confession that could easily render it invalid in court. A confession in response to a falsehood I'm sure is easily reduced to meaningless by a good lawyer.

Lies can be used as threats: "You will get the death penalty if you don't confess to being an accomplice. You will be charged for the murder instead. Would you rather a prison term or death row?" What if this person is innocent and doesn't want to die? What if he's been interrogated to exhaustion? What if they're afraid? What if it were impossible to actually do this, charge the suspect for the murder? Lies can be coercive and should invalidate any information derived from them.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

levite

I think it's not quite as simple as "lie" or "no lie." The cops ought to be able to tell some lies, in some ways, in some situations, but not other lies, in other ways, in other situations.

"We have your buddy in the next room, and he implicated you. Want to tell your side?" Seems OK to me.

"If you don't give us the information we want, we'll make sure they take your kids away." Not so much.

Also, tactics are another issue. Lying may or may not be okay. Refusing to let a suspect go to the bathroom? Not okay. Interrogating him in a hot, stuffy room without giving him water, for like eight or ten hours? Also not okay.

We don't want to strip the police of all their potential advantages in obtaining a confession, but we do want to limit the ways in which the process can be abused.

Also, I'm just throwing this out here, it might help if we had laws that made more sense. Threatening someone with jail is okay in theory, but could go terribly wrong with the kind of draconian sentencing guidelines that we have in the US. Also, cops way too often end up rolling right over some guy to get information, just because they can squeeze him by prosecuting him for some minor drug offense. We get rid of draconian sentencing and stupid drug laws, I'd be more inclined to give the cops free rein on jamming people up in order to get information.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

dksuddeth

silence is golden. You have a 5th amendment right for a reason. Use it and keep your mouth shut. The 'justice' system isn't just anymore and hasn't been for decades.

a sidenote, since it is a violation of the law to lie to federal agents, giving them a false confession now places you in jeopardy of a crime no matter where you go from there.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

QuasiMondo

That is okay because the cops are not trying to coerce you into making an admission of guilt.

That is not okay because they are attempting to coerce you into making an admission of guilt. No different than slamming your head into the table repeatedly until you scream, "Okay, I did it!!!!"

My 'sea lawyer' knowledge is that a suspect isn't threatened with jail. He is advised of the charges he faces and the maximum jail sentence that can be imposed. That sentence could be reduced if he agrees to sing.

Of course, everything I've just said I learned from Law & Order, so I could be mistaken, but T's must be crossed and I's must be dotted, otherwise, a good defense lawyer will eat them alive.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

MSD

Once again, Internet discussion proves that 99% of people have no idea of what entrapment is, and especially how it relates to the legal system.
No, we shouldn't.
Cops cannot reduce charges, only the prosecutor can do that.

Ace_O_Spades

In Canada this is governed by the R. v. Oickle Supreme Court decision:

It seems like a sensible decision to me. Plenty is weighed when determining the admissibility of confessions.

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Feh.

Tully Mars

It's a cat and mouse game played out by law enforcement in every state. When it becomes readily apparent the suspect is lying it's pretty common to use lies to trip up the original lies. Is it right? I don't know. I have trouble with the whole ends justifies the means mentality and I've seen too many times where those in authority have abused that authority. But the bottom line is it's not normally illegal for the police to use misinformation and out and out lies in an attempt to get you to incriminate yourself.

I remember reading an article in a National Sheriffs Association magazine about a case where two officers put a piece of paper on a copy machine that read "you're lying" and ran two wires out to some type of hat. They put the hat on a guy and told him it was a lie detector test. Every time they asked him a question they hit the copy button and showed him the "test" results. Within a couple questions he was telling them what happened, how it happened and who helped him.

Guess if you're that dumb you deserve what you get.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Ace_O_Spades

This was also done in The Wire... which was the best show on television until season 5

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Feh.

Tully Mars

Life and art? I'd guess the real event happened first. I read the story in the 80's. Not sure how long The Wire's been on the air.

The back page of this magazine used to have odd and funny stories.

One story detailed a deputy who'd been called out to a large family farm in the middle of, let's say Iowa since I can't remember the state. Anyway after driving many miles out to this isolated farm he talks to the farmer who explains someone broke into his barn. The deputy asks to see damage. He's taken out to a huge barn with a door that's been smashed in. It's half full of livestock and half equipment and a shop area. In the shop area there's a really large RV, top of the line RV. The RV has a section of garden hose sticking out of its side. Next to it there's a couple empty gas cans, about 15-20 empty beer cans and what appears to be vomit. The deputy asked if the gas can belongs to the farm? Nope. The beer? Yep.

He says "Well, no big mystery here. Someone ran out of gas and broke in here trying to find some, drank a few of your beers and got sick before they could finish stealing your gas."

"Close but not exactly" says the farmer.

"And why not?" replies the deputy.

"Because that hose isn't sticking out of the gas tank it's in the sewer vent access."

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

inBOIL

Yeah, like those assholes who have Down's sydrome. They all deserve to be locked up, right?

__________________
And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

dksuddeth

Unfortunately, this has about a 2% chance of actually working in the USA. The courts have almost consistently ruled in favor of government interests, or in the case of a defendant whose guilt is barely in question, say it serves the interests of justice to provide qualified immunity to any government agent that has broken a law to enforce the law.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Tully Mars

Yes, I believe that is what I said. All mentality ill and handicapped people are assholes and should be put in prison. When that task is complete I think we should hunt down all the cute puppies in the world and make a bunch of nice coats.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

inBOIL

You said (or implied) that someone who's stupid enough to be fooled by a lie that the average person would see through deserves to be imprisoned. Did I read that wrong?

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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

Miss Mango

How do you draw the line between a legitimate confession and a false confession? I\'m not sure if it would be that cut and dry...

Tully Mars

I implied something in jest regarding people who lack basic thought process skills. You added to that a comment equating assholes to people with Downs Syndrome. I figured as long as we were taking things to the next absurd level I'd add killing cute puppies to mix.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

inBOIL

I see. I didn't realize that you were joking.

__________________
And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

Ace_O_Spades

2% eh? Is that directly from the agency of statistics pulled out of your ass? I kid, I kid...

In any case, as I see it one of the main differences and (in my opinion) fundamental flaws with your judicial system is that you elect your judges. When someone is afraid of being re-elected they have a nasty habit of politicizing the law and hence "justice" becomes what's en-vogue at the time, and usually individual rights suffer... That's an entire debate onto itself that probably requires its own thread.

And our appointment process is flawed and in need of overhauling... I'm under no delusions our system is perfect. Nevertheless, I don't believe you should be able to play politics with the Charter (our Constitution).

__________________
Feh.

jewels

Oh please. Of course they have to lie. How many witnesses lie? (I know nothing, I've seen nothing.) How many readily give up information?

If a family member was assaulted or missing or worse -- and there was a "person of interest" being questioned, you wouldn't advocate bending the truth to try to get information?

And if you're a parent of at least two kids close in age who tend to band together, sometimes you just might have to resort to special tactics to get at the truth.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Lasereth

To those opposing lying to get the truth out of a suspect: what do you suggest in its place?

Ace_O_Spades

I think there has to be a difference between outright lying and general police trickery. The ultimate goal would be tripping someone up who is offering contradictory testimony, and straight up quality interrogation with full video/sound monitoring so a judge can determine the admissibility of the confession.

However, as this is less than normal, given how two faced some offenders are, lying generally suffices to get people to confess if they think it will save their ass.

It sets a strange precedent though, that it is okay for our authority figures to lie and be dirty and underhanded in pursuit of justice. Raises integrity and role model issues. But really, is that anything new?

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Feh.