02-10-2008, 06:29 PM | #1 (permalink) |
Insane
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Felons and Voting
In a couple of states (I believe Kentucky & Virginia) a convicted felon has his/her voting rights terminated permanently. It is possible for their rights to be restored with a pardon from the governor but this can take years to process. What do you think about a person's voting rights being terminated indefinitely? Do you think that these states should adopt the same procedures as the majority of the country and restore said rights once the debt to society has been repaid or do you think this privilege should remain revoked? If you believe the right should be restored, then after how long? What process if any should be in place? Should only certain felons rights be restored or all felons?
I believe that once a debt to society has been paid a person voting privileges should be restored without a process in place. I don't think it needs to be reviewed by anyone and the completion of parole/probation is suffice to make this determination. I also think this should apply for all felons, violent or non.
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02-10-2008, 06:33 PM | #2 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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I agree. Done the time then you should be free to live the same as everyone else.
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02-10-2008, 06:48 PM | #3 (permalink) |
Master Thief. Master Criminal. Masturbator.
Location: Windiwana
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yeah. whats the story behind that anyway? why cant you vote if you have a felony?
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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me. -Pastor Martin Niemoller |
02-10-2008, 06:56 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
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My problem with laws like these is tied into my problem with mandatory minimums. We have made a lot of drug-related crimes into felonies, and in doing so, have dramatically increased the number of felons, especially those with lower socio-economic status. So by restricting felons who have done their time from voting, we are disenfranchising many of the poor in this country, as well as people of color.
Works nicely for rich white men, doesn't it?
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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
02-10-2008, 07:27 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Insane
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Onesnowyowl - oooohhhh we are one in the same. It amazes me that our government can silence nearly entire classes of people thereby eliminating the need to merge the gaps between them. God forbid we actually right some of the wrongs of this country, lets just continue to disengage them from society it's so much easier.
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* I do not believe that struggles are a sign of life falling apart, but rather a step of life falling into place. * |
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02-10-2008, 07:31 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Master Thief. Master Criminal. Masturbator.
Location: Windiwana
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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me. -Pastor Martin Niemoller |
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02-10-2008, 07:53 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Couldn't have put it better myself.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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02-10-2008, 08:03 PM | #9 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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We've discussed the way felon voting list "purging" has been used as a republican "minimuze the vote" "Op", over on the politics thread, for at least four years...here's an excerpt from on of my old posts:
Consider that, in 2000, we were told that republicans, Bush-Cheney won the popular vote in the state of Florida by about 500 votes, over the rival democratic candidates, Gore-Leiberman. Bush-Cheney had "help", though: ...the flawed history of state of Florida felon "voter purge lists", from Oct., 2004. There is much more info at the link: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...0&postcount=55 ....but here are excerpts of two main supporting points from the link, above: Florida is one of six states that permanently strip voting rights to felons for life unless they petition to have them restored. One election-law expert who usually represents Democrats said the release of the list will rekindle the debate over disenfranchising voters. <a href="http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/02/State/Felon_voters_list_mad.shtml">http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/02/State/Felon_voters_list_mad.shtml</a> Quote:
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02-10-2008, 08:09 PM | #10 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I think America will survive without all its felons voting.
I'm not sure why 'doing ones time' suddenly makes someone all 'even' with citizens who never committed a felony. But host is correct, this is to repress people likely to vote for democrats, you know, ex-cons.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
02-10-2008, 08:13 PM | #11 (permalink) |
Banned
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and plenty more, here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...2&postcount=22 ..More than 50,000 felons were released from Florida prisons last year. About 85 percent must apply to get clemency. A year ago, the court found that about 125,000 inmates who completed their terms between 1992 and 2001 -- out of as many as 700,000 -- had not been properly notified of their right to clemency. Gov. Bush can't call the appellate court's ruling judicial activism. The court didn't make the law; the state did. Here is the wording: "The authorized agent (of the state) shall assist the offender in completing these forms... before the offender is discharged from supervision." The court "interpreted" that to mean the state must "assist the offender." http://www.freelists.org/archives/li.../msg00472.html |
02-10-2008, 08:16 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Orlando, Florida
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What was that thing about "No taxation without representation"? I think that if one has served their time, their RIGHT to vote should be restored. Voting is not a privledge, it's a right. I also oppose the drug war (as mentioned earlier) as well as all the "vice" or consensual crime laws, so this no voting for ex-felons ever rubs me the wrong way on that level too.
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02-10-2008, 08:33 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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02-10-2008, 08:38 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
Insane
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* I do not believe that struggles are a sign of life falling apart, but rather a step of life falling into place. * |
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02-10-2008, 08:43 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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In the city of NYC it is a felony to assault a bus driver. It is a feloy to assualt a flight attendent, would you consider them any different than assualting you or me? Why is assaulting them a more "powerful" crime than assualting me or you?
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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02-10-2008, 08:50 PM | #16 (permalink) |
The Death Card
Location: EH!?!?
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All I know is how things are done in Canada. You never lose your right to vote up here, and I don't think you ever should lose your right to vote. It's the cornerstone of democracy. Given how trumped up the war on drugs is and the net-widening that has occurred, it strikes me as wrong that so many people, particularly the poor and disadvantaged lose their right to vote.
That doesn't mean that politicians are pulling for the felon vote... They just don't exclude them either.
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Feh. |
02-10-2008, 09:35 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Shocking, I know. I don't believe in rehabilitation, its been proven that we do not rehabilitate prisoners we punish them, the concept of rehabilitation in this country was on religious lines. I doubt the reason we have such a high recidivism is because they just don't feel they can contribute lawfully without the right to vote. The only reason this is an issue is that ex-cons vote overwhelmingly for democrats, and we have had close elections in some states that don't allow felons to vote.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-10-2008, 11:02 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
The Death Card
Location: EH!?!?
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When your society tells you you're worthless, and you are actively stigmatized and marginalized for *gasp* making a mistake, you see the opportunities to change your lot in life through legitimate means disappear. Labeling theory suggests that the very real marginalization and stigmatization offered by the label "criminal" or "felon" leads to secondary deviance, which is basically the self-fulfilling prophecy whereby people adopt the self-image that is foisted upon them by society at large. Hence, increased recidivism when there are not adequate measures to ensure reintegration back into the community after being released from an institution. All these people need is hope for a better life, and the means by which to achieve it. Rehabilitation is possible, I've seen it work with my own eyes. However, the community has to buy into it first or it's just a buzz word. Yeah yeah, I know what you're going to say I'm favouring the criminal over the victim. You can throw pretty much any crime-control dogma you want at me, I can take it. All I know is how unsatisfied victims are with even harsh sentences for the offender. They know they will be released with little to no rehabilitation, and they often live in fear because they do not know why they or their loved one was the target of the crime. What's the solution to this problem? It's not harsher sentences. I suggest you do some reading on Restorative Justice, and please for once, just once, leave your own opinions and biases at the door. If that's even possible.
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02-11-2008, 05:08 AM | #19 (permalink) | |||||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-11-2008, 06:01 AM | #20 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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02-11-2008, 06:50 AM | #21 (permalink) |
People in masks cannot be trusted
Location: NYC
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I do not see the problem. Maybe it is not much of a deterrent but it is part of the punishment for committing the crime in the first place. You do not like the end results do not commit a felony that simple. I do not care which party the person will or will not vote after, going to jail does not fix the fact fully that you broke the law. It is sort of like a rope you can cut a rope in half and tie it together again but it will never be as strong. Similarly you broke the trust and you violated the law, and this is part of the punishment, and do not ever fully get 100% back.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. |
02-11-2008, 06:58 AM | #22 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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"Well you know I wasn't going to rape that girl, but then I thought to myself, I can't vote so fuck her man, fuck her, I feel powerless!" Gimmy a break.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-11-2008, 07:25 AM | #23 (permalink) | |
Registered User
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I've never understood why a felon can't vote. In NC, I believe your right to vote is only revoked as long as you are parole/probation, after that it is reinstated. That makes sense. You did your time, you proved you went another 3, 5, 10, however many years without doing anything else.. you should be allowed a say in the country's most basic right. It's not like voting can hurt anyone. The law about felons not being able to carry firearms makes sense.. but seriously.. a ballot won't do much damage.. unless you live in Florida. I'm also trying to figure out how a felon can be taxed if they can't vote.. taxation without representation?? |
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02-11-2008, 07:37 AM | #24 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 02-11-2008 at 07:40 AM.. |
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02-11-2008, 07:39 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
People in masks cannot be trusted
Location: NYC
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I do not think that there is a universal policy trust never can be earned back (but I do feel strongly some things once done can never be undone no matter what you do, an example on a personal note was an ex cheated on me, she did ask for forgiveness I forgave he years later, but i still would not go out with her again, that is a difference between rehabilitation since i know she was sorry, and full acceptance), but a felony is not a misdemeanor. And while yes there can be someone in the wrong place at the wrong time, I will not ask why the person was in the wrong place (but that is a good question), but we have trials, and like the Julie Amero case portrayed there is chances of huge travesty of injustice, but to think that in those cases the issue there is much larger then whether that person should be able to vote or not. As far as rehabilitation I think that people can rehabilitate but part of rehabilitation is taking responsibility for your actions. The current policy is if you break our trust you can not vote, and be part of the decision process. If you have a qualm with that then do not violate the trust. |
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02-11-2008, 07:45 AM | #26 (permalink) | ||
Registered User
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However, I do often wonder how different the recidivism rates would be would more people not do this. A felon gets out of prison, serves probation and has what to look forward to? Umm well, nobody will hire them because they were a felon at one point.. how to feed the family?? I guess back on the streets slinging dope is the only answer. Quote:
We all know that there are some people who just can't be rehabilitated, and there are others who shouldn't vote. I just don't understand the blanket laws. If it's a sex crime against children, or murder, rape etc.. then ok.. you can't vote. But if you were in the car when the dude driving decided to run from the cops and it was stolen, or you just slung some dope.. serve your time, do your probation, if you stay clean.. then vote. It's pretty easy. |
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02-11-2008, 07:57 AM | #27 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I was curious as to what the law really is and where the origins of voting within the 14th Amendment. Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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02-11-2008, 07:58 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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There are only two types of jobs I hire for. One handles money directly. One works on children daily. Neither are what I'd feel very comfortable with, hiring a convicted felon, as any issues they have become my problem.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-11-2008, 08:05 AM | #29 (permalink) |
Minion of Joss
Location: The Windy City
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Voting is a right. Pure and simple. If you're a citizen of the USA, you get to vote in elections. I have no problem with that right being suspended for the duration of someone's term in prison, but once they get out, they should get back as many of their fundamental rights as we can give them. Obviously, if someone is a violent criminal, we should restrict their right in the matter of access to arms, but there's no excuse for restricting their access to the ballot box.
The criminal justice system in the US is joke, anyway. We spend all our money trying to put people in jail for using drugs, and instead end up not having any resources to prosecute conglomerates and commercial monopolies that defraud people, cheat them, and manipulate our resources, and our access to free information, and our access to reasonably-priced medication. Prison in America is about the rich and powerful, who are mostly white, finding someplace off the streets to stash the poor and the sick, who are mostly black and Latino and Asian. Prison is what we do in the US instead of actually fixing our problems. So of course it makes sense that if we can find a way to disenfranchise the poor, the sick, and the minorities along the way.... That's the American way.
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Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne) |
02-11-2008, 08:10 AM | #30 (permalink) | |
People in masks cannot be trusted
Location: NYC
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Felons have more problems then a job at times. They may not be able to get some student loans, be kicked out of public housing, and voting issue as well. All these things are deterrents, and while not a part of the 'jail time' comes with the fact that you did a Felony.
The question not asked here where we should start is what is a felony, and think of the type of crime that entails it, and why it is punished so. Wikipedia Quote:
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02-11-2008, 08:10 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
The Death Card
Location: EH!?!?
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Kudos, I can see how your society got to where it is today.
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02-11-2008, 08:18 AM | #32 (permalink) | |
Registered User
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uugh, more wiki "science" I'm really sick of everyone thinking that a wiki entry is the be all end all. (sorry not directed at you entirely.. just something I've noticed in alot of places) A felony is so different in so many states. While the most basic violent crimes will be felonies in all states, there are some states that have crazy laws that do nothing but created felons. So we can't really start with what is a felony. We should start with what shouldn't be a felony. Who commits felonies? Lots of people.. from the poor to the rich.. the black the white.. that's an easy answer. I guess now that I'm thinking about it.. I guess felons do vote.. they just haven't been caught; and more than likely they're also the ones running for office. |
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02-11-2008, 08:24 AM | #33 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Hard working, law abiding family men who take personal responsibility for their actions. Recidivism rates in Canada are 83.2% (but only 62% for sex offenders, go Canada!), but you keep on living on Gumdrop Island. http://www.johnhoward.ab.ca/docs/sxoffend/sexoffr.PDF Now if you excuse me I have a job applicant here, I'll be sure to ask her if she has been convicted of a felony.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-11-2008, 08:38 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Junkie
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"As frank as I can be, we're opposed to [restoring voting rights] because felons don't tend to vote Republican."
Alabama Republican Party Chairman Marty Connors I don't see any logic in taking away their vote. I see logic in taking away their guns, but their vote.... they can't harm anyone with their vote. |
02-11-2008, 09:09 AM | #35 (permalink) | ||
The Death Card
Location: EH!?!?
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Recidivism is a poor calculator of the success of justice initiatives because it ignores the fact that our crime problems stem from underlying social issues. The system essentially sets people up to fail so they can go back to prison. Then people can look at the recidivism rate and go, "Gosh, you guys have a huge problem! We need to lock people up for longer so they don't reoffend anymore" without actually addressing why people got there in the first place. Ustwo, if you actually have the ability to comprehend what someone who doesn't agree with you is saying, listen to this: I don't blame the hardworking American who is law-abiding. Good for you for making the most of your life and being prosperous. Honestly. But some people have the misfortune to be sexually assaulted as a child, or have an excessively abusive parent, or live in such impoverished conditions that they cannot meet the basic necessities of life. These are the underlying factors that cause criminality. This is not in the developing world, this is happening in BOTH our countries. I blame the attitude that people who make a mistake are disposable people who deserve to be cast aside with no future prospects for reintegration or rehabilitation. I blame crime-control proponents who commodify prisoners in private institutions, and don't WANT them to be released because they provide a source of cheap labour. What happens when you turn the management of your prisons over to corporations? You get statements like, "Private prisons are like a hotel that will be booked solid to the end of the century!" (I would cite my source, but it's an ad from an American corrections journal in a journal article in a collected works published by my university.) Yeah right, we live in gumdrop fairy tale land (ooh I can use the rolling eye emoticon too!), but you're the ones with the massive crime problems that aren't being solved through increasingly harsh sentences.
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02-11-2008, 09:11 AM | #36 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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could one of the folk who likes (for whatever reason) to link having been convicted of a felony AND served one's time--to anything at all to do with the right to vote thereafter explain the logic that links the two?
so far as i can tell from the thread, all i see is "i don't like these people"--that isn't an argument. it's an arbitrary statement of an aesthetic position--on the order of not liking hamburgers or peas. seriously--that ustwo for example wouldn't hire someone who did time to work in his office has NOTHING to do with whether ex-felons should or should not have the right to vote. come on folks: at least make an effort to be logical....dissociation isn't pretty.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-11-2008, 09:38 AM | #37 (permalink) | |
People in masks cannot be trusted
Location: NYC
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here is one quote can not find the exact link.
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The second thought that I see is that most felony crimes is infringing on someone else's rights, and therefore you can not expect everyone else to give you an extra right / privilege (i say extra since the right to vote is not a constitutional right). |
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02-11-2008, 09:41 AM | #38 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Rather than spend more time on this I'll go hostal and give you an article in its entirety which sums up a lot of my feelings on the subject. It took me 10 seconds to goggle it of course.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 02-11-2008 at 09:43 AM.. |
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02-11-2008, 09:44 AM | #39 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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ustwo:
that is a ridiculous article. how about you lay out YOUR logic, if there is any?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-11-2008, 09:45 AM | #40 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The theft of their right to vote is an injustice and sets dangerous precedent. |
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felons, voting |
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