Ace_O_Spades

See... I don't like where these assumptions are going, from both sides of the argument.

Obviously, the onus to not recidivate is squarely on the offender. Just because you have a criminal record doesn't mean you're GOING to get another record, just that you're statistically more likely to reoffend if you've spent time in an institution.

There are legitimate jobs that a person with a criminal record can obtain. Or perhaps I'm operating from another faulty assumption of my own, as I do not know what proportion of jobs require a criminal record check in the USA. Generally in Canada it's only when you're placed in a position of authority, you will have access to confidential client information, or where you have contact with children or disadvantaged populations.

But I feel as if I'm going off on a tangent... I agree with Ustwo that not being able to vote doesn't make you commit crime. But ignoring all the associated elements of the equation doesn't make any sense either. Crime is such a multifaceted problem, it requires a multifaceted solution.

Quite frankly, I still don't see what is to be gained by removing the right to vote from these people. Is it strictly punishment? A deterrent? It seems overly harsh in the former, and completely ineffective in the latter.

__________________
Feh.

StanT

I view loss of voting rights as part of the punishment.

Regaining your voting rights as a felon varies from state to state. In some state, it is a routine process that occurs as you leave the judicial system. In others, nothing short of a pardon from the governor will do.

I'm of the mind that conviction of a felony is a very clear demonstration of bad judgement. Petitioning the government to reinstate voting rights after a period of time would seem reasonable.

dksuddeth

just to play devils advocate here, but wouldn't the 5th amendment actually require the constitution to be amended to explicitly remove the right to vote for ex-cons?

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

meaning that only incarceration denies you your rights, but once time has been served, all rights are re-instated?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Glory's Sun

I'm assuming it's much harder to get a job because of things I see in the media.. which obviously will be flawed. What I see is people saying they got out, couldn't find a job, had mouths to feed so they did what they had to do.. and ended up back in the big house. Is it just an excuse? Possibly. Is it real? More than likely.

Almost every job requires a criminal background check. It's not a bad thing.. as if I employ someone I want to know whether or not they have a record and should I take an extra precaution or two. (there's that trust thing.. call me guilty) It's the fact that the majority of the time, a person will not be hired simply because they have a record that bothers me. A person should get a chance to redeem themselves and prove they can hold a job, and be a productive member of society. Truth be told, if everyone was examined to the nTH degree.. we'd all be looking for second chances.

I'm against the blanket laws of these states that completely remove the right. All felons are not equal.. hence the rating system. Someone who is convicted of felony DUI is not on the same level as a child rapist. It's pretty fucking simple. You have a class D or lower felony..you can vote.. anything higher.. sorry.. you'll have to wait a few years.

Ace_O_Spades

To quote Tricky Dick Nixon from Futurama:

SOCK IT TO 'EM!

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Feh.

Tully Mars

Sorry I don't, could always google it and see what you get. I've had that NCSL site bookmarks for several years now. I'd assume if state statutes change they'd update. But I could be wrong. Been out of Law Enforcement for a few years now so I don't keep up like I used to.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Rekna

It's not what you think. Looking online it is still a crime (ie they toss you in jail and punish you accordingly) but you don't have a right to a jury trial.

roachboy

ace: here's the problem.

you're right in that there is perhaps no correlation between crime and the not voting--but i would argue that there is one between actions that in a fascist context would all be criminalized, but in other context would be understood as political actions and the sense that there is no recourse to, participation in, or possibility of redress of grievances by way of the existing political order.

this is a very old and obvious way to interpreting crime and other forms of "social deviance" historically. if there's a problem with it, that problem comes in reversing the direction of an ex post facto interpretation and trying to use it to generate causal claims. but that you cannot make if a then b type arguments does not in any way invalidate the more general point--it simply demonstrates why you aren't likely to run into them in a criminology course, but would see them routinely in other types of courses that deal with questions of crime and its social consequences. criminology course have no monopoly on either the topic or approaches to it.

as for ustwo and his fascist line of thinking about this question, i'm finished interacting with it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ace_O_Spades

Head hurts from bashing it against the brick wall eh?

Also, I HAVE run into these arguments in criminology courses. They represent but one element in a wide range of causal factors

there is no A then B cause of crime. Unless you break down A into its component parts, such that disenfranchisement is part of the lack of hope and promise for the future that leads to detatchment from traditional social routines and activities. A of course has many more component parts.

Unless you believe offenders in general are born predisposed to criminal activity. Then you belong in the 19th century.

__________________
Feh.

Tully Mars

Got a link?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Rekna

Not anymore, i didn't find the case itself but instead references to it saying you do not have a right to a jury trial. But there was lots of info on people be prosecuted for DUI in NJ.

Ace_O_Spades

It makes intuitive sense doesn't it? I mean, can you imagine there not being a law against DUI in the United States, the land of the free and home of the mandatory minimum sentence?

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Feh.

dksuddeth

best one i could find. go to the near bottom of the page.

http://www.njlawnet.com/njlawreview/dwidefense1.html

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

savmesom11

Which is another reason why the article Ustwo linked is utter nonsense! As there may be more blacks in prison but we punish them harsher too.

How is allowing someone to vote in a democratic process burdening you????

I can't find the link now but for instance a high school senior (18 yrs old) was caught creating fake ID's for his fellow classmates, he took a plea bargain that resulted in a felony. You cannot honestly tell me that this young man deserves to have this mistake follow him for LIFE. I am certain that most of us had either fake ID's or our friends did so we could get some beer for the weekend party while in high school. All felonies are not the same but again I am ranting off into another argument all together.

__________________
* I do not believe that struggles are a sign of life falling apart, but rather a step of life falling into place. *

Elphaba

Agreed. I wonder why an averred scientist would choose to present a mere relationship as causation, then when challenged presents a "hostian" proof. The insults to the participants of this thread are piling up.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

dc_dux

Perhaps that WH felon, Scooter Libby, can make "felon voter rights" his new mission in life.....with funding from those unrehabilitatable jailbirds, Jack Abramoff and Duke Cunningham who reaped $millions in taxpayer money for their felonious acts.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

so in a post 9/11 world people making fake IDs should be "exempt" or exhonerated for their desire to be something they are not?

He shouldn't have plead for the felony and taken his chances with the possible aquittal. It still would be a felony if he didn't plea so I don't get your point. He MADE the choice to make IDs, no one put a gun to his head.

So what if one of the people he made a fake ID for somehow leveraged it to more than just buying beer and getting into clubs. We're not talking about USING a fake ID you are stating he was making them. A HUGE difference. He took the risk and got caught. That's the nature with all of this, he's an idiot for not stopping when he was 17 and 364 days old. Also now with the fact that some minors are tried as adults depending upon the crime, the idea is that he or anyone else should be weighing the ramifications of getting caught and the punishmed meted out for any crime.

Allowing them to vote isn't the burden, them being a criminal and engaging in criminal activities IS a burden to me once they get caught. This isn't just giving the kid a time out, this is letting people know that there is more than just a trip to the big house for 3 hots and a cot. There is more at stake than just time away from your friends and loved ones.

The burden on me is that I get to pay for them to be on "vacation" from the rest of society for however they are punished which isn't even the whole sentence anyways. Gee that's a deterent, be good in prison and you'll get out earlier.

Let's talk about crime PREVENTION in the first place. No one forces someone to commit criminal acts. It is up to the individual to prevent themselves from commmiting criminal acts in the first place.

Again, they can move to another state if they so choose, they got 50 to pick from.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Rudy Giuliani fallacy. Shameful.

Tully Mars

The only problem I see with that link is the article is written and CR'd in 2000.

The NCSL is a fairly well know and respected organization and they're still posting New Jersey as "DUII not a crime." This could mean several things. For example the NJ State SC may have taken action not reflected in the older article. I don't know.

What ever the reason is I'm certain they're doing something to prosecute people driving while impaired. I'd guess, if they haven't reversed State V. Hamm, they do something like reckless driving in place of DUII. I think the key wording on the NCSL site is not a "crime."

At any rate if it is a crime in NJ I stand corrected. Wasn't really a main part of my point, more of a side note. I was responding to a post where the poster stated DUII isn't a felony, in fact I think they stated killing somebody while driving drunk wasn't a felony. My point was DUII certainly can be a felony and I'd be very surprised if killing someone while driving drunk didn't yield felony charges.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cynthetiq

Nothing shameful about it. If you're serious about security, then you're serious about making the punishment for creating fake documents a stiff penalty. From either defrauding the government for services like welfare, commiting idenity theft, or even underage drinking, making fake IDs is a serious offense.

If you don't think so, that's great. Carry one the next time you go to a protest and whip that out instead of your Will Ravel CADL and see just what that gets you.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

Sorry I didn't agree with you but thanks for saying I think like a facist, coming from you it gives me warm fuzzies.

You can't defend your position beyond 'Its a right!' and no, its not, the supreme court said so.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

HEY! I was the one that said you were like a 'facist' (you mean fascist, right?).

Cynth, you're acting like 9/11 happened because some 17 year old with a hard-on got a fake ID to get beer so he could nail the future alcoholic chick at the graduation party.

They found a terrorist's passport, remember?

Cynthetiq

No, I'm stating that fake identity and misrepresenting who you are is even more important in today's world. If you don't think so, that's you. Personally, I do.

You don't find that to be a felony offense. I do. There's lots you can do with fake papers.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

levite

I know it's ever-so-slightly off topic, but...I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that if we're going to play the post-9/11 game, then perhaps instead of evaluating our draconian penal laws in light of how safe the streets aren't because we're busting potheads, or how secure the country isn't because we're putting away teenagers making fake IDs, perhaps we might think about how the tens of billions of dollars we piss away every year pointlessly trying to keep people from smoking weed, or high school kids from drinking beer and going to strip clubs, might better be spent upping the ratio of shipping cargo screened in our ports from 1% to something less chillingly laughable; or perhaps coming up with a way not to have trains carrying toxic chemicals, flammable materials, or poisonous gases routed through our major cities each and every day; or providing actual training of TSA agents so that our airport security isn't an international joke, or enough air marshals so that each and every flight actually has guards on board.

Let's face it: who we send to jail, the way we enforce our criminal laws, and the way we treat our criminals, has absolutely jack squat to do with national security. It has everything to do with what color the criminals are, and who stands to profit from disenfranchising them, and who makes money off the vices that are legal, and has interests in keeping the illegal vices illegal.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

snowy

Amen, brother.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Tully Mars

Are you trying to say everyone's not treated equally in the US justice system?

I guess that would explain why folks like Jeff Skilling who as part of the Enron scheme bilked countless victims of, likely, billions of dollars. Many of whom lost their entire retirement savings. Is that why a guy like that is sitting in a Federal Correctional Institution in Waseca, Minnesota. A low security prison housing male inmates. A prison that formerly served as a University of Minnesota campus until 1992.

Wonder how many people of color siting in places like Angola for theft of less then $10,000 doing 25 years would trade places with him?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Ace_O_Spades

Another example of why we need a sarcasm tag

Sock it to em!

__________________
Feh.

Tully Mars

Really? A tag? Thought I was laying it on pretty thick.

I'll try harder next time. It's hard work. We're working hard. Nine-Elev....

C'mon! One of these tag lines has to still work, right?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Ace_O_Spades

Oh I got it. But it was just a crossover from the scientology thread.

__________________
Feh.

Elphaba

Roachboy, have you saved a seat at the "not playing" table for me? I'm done here and could use an adult beverage.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

host

Post #38
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...88#post2398588

indicates that Ustwo is not interested or capable of a discussion on the subject of felons losing their voting rights. Below is another "sampel" of the writing of the author, Edward Feser, of Ustwo's lengthy article included in post #38.....supposedly to support Ustwo's objection to parolee voting:
I don't think I have read an article as offensive and partisan as Feser's, have you?

....This is what the controversy is really about. Bush, with no official recount permitted by the US Supreme Court to be completed in 2000, was leading Gore by about 500 votes. Bush's brother Jeb and Florida Secretary of State, a woman who simulataneously served as Bush/Cheney 2000 campaign chairperson, spent $4.3 million dollars to subcontract a voter purge list of 7purported felons, disqualifying 57,700 from the voting registries, and many did not discover this until they attempted to vote.
<h3>So they used a phoney felon purge list in Florida in 2000 to steal the US presidential election, and if you read on, you can see that Paul Weyrich advocated doing this, all the way back in 1981:</h3>
So, what this is "all about", can be found at the first few links in the goolge searh results, here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...ge&btnG=Search
...it's about voter "caging"....preventing people from voting, and the national Republican party agreed in court, in a cease and desist order in the 1980's, to stop doing it, but they never did......

Rekna

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what link there is between committing a felony and voting. How does voting contribute to their criminal activity?

Cynthetiq

I don't find it has anything to do with that.

I believe that jail time is not a deterrent to some criminals, criminal records are not a deterrent. And maybe for some the idea of becoming disenfranchised and losing a few of key civil rights like the right to bear arms and the ability to vote. People don't care about it thinking that it doesn't matter anyways, they'll still carry a gun, but when they actually attempt to participate within the system, they can be and will be denied.

Any statesman will not be so willing to help someone who isn't a voter as there is no reciprocity, just benevolence.

LOSING THE VOTE

that may be true, but so what, the person didn't go to jail. He got what he wanted, he didn't want to go to jail. There's no free lunches here in this world and that's what people seem to want. To get over or get something for nothing.

Understand that when there is due proces there is alot weighed here. Judges don't go callously into the night just incarcerating people without letting them know of the ramifications of pleading guilty. Pleading guilty removes another right to speedy trial. You waive that right by pleading guilty because they don't care how long until they follow due process.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

The conservative position seems pretty clear to me......do the crime, not only should you do the time...you should be penalized for life. No second chances at a right of citizenship if you screw up once.

I guess the compassionate part comes in with the argument that they can move to another state.

BTW, nice cherry picking of ONE quote (probably the least relevant since most convicted felons - even the innocent ones - dont volunarily trade a guilty plea for the right to vote) from the Sentencing Project document.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ustwo

Felons not being able to find a job really has nothing to do with losing the right to vote.

While I won't hire a felon, I've never asked anyone if they voted in the last election as a criteria for hiring.

What is at issue here has nothing to do with the fairness of the system after you are out, but judgment, and once you are a felon I see no point in trusting your judgment on the next judge. All other issues are ancillary, and quite frankly I find the concept that because they can't vote they don't feel they 'belong' to society completely ludicrous.

Sure hes a rapist and a thief, but if he could ONLY vote and see he MATTERS , maybe he will change his ways!

Bullshit.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

whatever1

Well, my first post here on a sensitive subject. Sorry to blow dust off this oldie but goodie.

I personally am subjected to the lifelong punishment.

I worked as a nurse. Had a great career and family. My wife left me in the middle of the night while I was at work. I came home to an empty house. She had moved to her parents house taking EVERY possession with her. I had a pillow on the floor and piles of clothes, thats it.

I MISTAKENLY went to her parents house when they were not home, used a key and entered to get some of my stuff.

Felony burglary conviction, license gone and life sucks.

Now fast forward 15 years. Life is better, the ex still is bitter and tries to taint our daughter, but she is too smart.

Life is still hard, the problems. PA cannot expunge until you are 70 years old, 30 to go!

I cannot be a scout leader for my kids. I cannot be a volunteer in their school. I cannot be a baseball, basketball, football coach. I cant even sell used cars. Sure, I might be able to work at the salvation army.

Can I vote, yes, HELL YES, do I, HELL YES.

Criminal activities are at an all time high. People make mistakes. In the old days, they were taken home, scolded at the station, DUI drivers were driven home. NO ONE told us or educated us that this is a lifelong tattoo. There needs to be a place or point in time where someone can be whole again.

Ace_O_Spades

This part confuses me, maybe I'm missing something. So you have a felony conviction in the USA and can still vote? Is this something unique to your state? Which state do you live in (if you don't mind me asking)? Did you have to take Cynthetiq's advice and move to another state?

And on that note, I believe the rest of your post paints a pretty decent picture as to why offender stigmatism is very real... And punishes someone long after the offense has been paid for.

__________________
Feh.

Sugar&Spice

As a probation officer, I must attend sentencings for the defendants. Last week, I had a case where a twenty-one year old guy got convicted of a felony (drug related). He had spent time in a treatment facility and had letters from the counselors commending him on his behavior while at the facility along with letters from past employers. He completed the treatment, came back to face his punishment and the judge gave him his sentence, but also added that if he completed his probation without a problem, she'd remove the felony off of his record. So this guy has the chance to get a fresh start and hopefully he will take advantage of it.

This is just one example I have. I think a judge is more willing to remove the felony conviction if the person does seem regretful and makes an effort to get back on the right track. Plus, their criminal history has a lot to do with it.

__________________
-Speak your mind even if your voice shakes

Tully Mars

So the sentence was probation? First offense, personal use?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cynthetiq

And that is where the check and balance is in this country. The lawyers challenge the laws and a judge determines the outcome. I'm all for that kind of interpretation.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.