i think CoS is a bunch of douchebags, but i'm not going to risk my or my family's well being in order to participate in a protest.

sorry, i'm selfish that way

Dude, that's what the masks are for. You do know that Operating Thetans aren't really psychic, right?

I'm not particularly afraid of the Church of Scientology. Maybe I should be, but it seems to me that that's sort of what they're going for. The whole intimidation campaign deal is about making people too afraid to speak out against them, so that they can basically do whatever they want. Unfortunately for them, there's always going to be people like me who are too stupid to be scared.

I didn't participate in the protests, but that was because by the time I'd heard about them it was too late. I hate to use the cliche, but dude, if you let these guys tell you what you can or can't do then the terrorists win.

Oh yeah, I totally just called CoS terrorists.

(Still waiting on the scientologist muscle to come break my kneecaps)

Their HQ is in Downtown Clearwater where they're constructing their 70 million dollar building. Seriously, all you see walking around are robots wearing khakis and dress shirts. You have to see them every time you want to go to the beach.

Go for it ;)

There is no straw man here. You can argue that the Anon is attacking the CoS for it's practices, but this is clearly false.

As I said earlier (Which you quoted but somehow ignored) there are MUCH bigger 'fish to fry' that Anon absolutely refuses to go after with the same fervor that they attack the CoS with (It's like ignoring the guy who's engaging in grand theft auto to harass the guy who engages in petty theft). In fact, you don't even hear so much of a peep from Anon regarding any non-CoS issues. These 'protests', as you want to call them, are nothing more than a thinly veiled excuse to attack a set of religious beliefs and only reinforces the notion that Anon is attacking Scientology because, well, it's Scientology.

*Shrugs*

But, you know, I suppose it's okay for people to harass another group of people just so long as the group dong the harassing isn't the WBC, right?

*the point*






*Infinite_Loser's Head*

/whoooooosh

WARNING: I bring nothing to this conversation.

You forgot that plain word "vocabulary."

Uh-huh...

the point = you cannot determine when or where people will be motivated. the point = can not denegrate the efforts of people who are trying to promote positive change, regardless of how many other things need changing

If you want to change those things, go start your own mass internet movement.

If you cannot see the difference between WBC & Co$ then you clearly do not understand the reason Anon is doing what they're doing. Free religion. Scientology is not free. They support the free and equal dissemination of "Church" doctrine so that people do not need to sink vast sums of money and be brainwashed in the process to get to what the "Church" is all about.

I believe I said, and I quote, "These 'protests', as you want to call them, are nothing more than a thinly veiled excuse to attack a set of religious beliefs and only reinforces the notion that Anon is attacking Scientology because, well, it's Scientology." You then proceeded to validate what I typed out.

The problem isn't so much what's being done, but who's doing it. Seeing as how most of society currently views Scientologists as crazy and most religions consider Scientology a dangerous cult, any reason to attack Scientology is A-Okay (Apparently). The fact is that you don't define what a religion is or what it constitutes. Because it's practices do not conform to whatever definition you want to place doesn't mean it needs to change. Still, it amazes me just how many atheists suddenly care about the way the CoS chooses to run it's religion. It perplexes me.

(Oh, and TFP really needs sarcasm tags as that doesn't go over well on the internet.)

So let me get this straight? You think people that say "We have the answers to..." truth, purpose, the soul, etc, should charge money for people to get in? Isn't that kinda like spiritual extortion?

And yes, yes, TFP does need Sarcasm tags... for sure. ---Not joking, I would greatly benefit from them.

Doesn't bother me. If that's the way the CoS chooses to run it's religion, then more power to them.

You mean"Props to them," that they sucker people in while still holding out the hefty collection plate?

You're still not explaining why. You say "it's false", make a claim as to knowing what the issues are that the protesters are addressing, and then repeat your still unsupported statement that it's about religion.

The reality is that you have no idea what you're talking about. And that bear picture in your avatar gives me the creeps.

Okay, let's see

No, if any religion had the same practices as scientology, I would say that all things being equal they would attack it for the same reasons. It's not because it's scientology and people hate it, it's the practices that are leading to the deaths and bankruptcys of otherwise right thinking individuals who have been brainwashed.

Scientology isn't a religion, it's a cult.

See: this and this and particularly THIS

If it kills people, yes it does. Google Lisa McPherson.

Once again, scientology isn't a religion, it's a dangerous cult.

Agreed.

I think you're missing the distinction between Scientology itself and the Church of Scientology. Read up on Free Zone Scientology and this may become slightly more clear.

Nobody takes issue with the beliefs of Scientology as a religion. The Free Zone guys are free to believe in it if they want; I think it's silly to say the least, but if that's your bag then by all means. The Church, on the other hand, routinely engages in practices that are, eh.. somewhat shady, we'll say. The highly touted examples are Operation Snow White and Operation Freak Out, but it goes way beyond that. People who get labeled SP are regarded by the Church and it's members as sub-human. Homes get picketed, employers get called and fed false information. Lies are spread. CoS attempts to strong-arm anyone who calls their practices into question.

Frankly, I wouldn't have a problem with the Church taking people's money if that's all they did. You think the path to enlightenment costs $400 000 and can be given to you by a guy who wrote crappy science fiction, then go ahead and spend your cash. I'll keep mine, thanks. What bothers me is how much the Church works against people who say anything negative about them, how they engage in shady or outright illegal practices in an attempt to intimidate people who don't agree with them and how they get away with it so often. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with an organization that bullies, slanders and extorts anyone who they deem to be against them. If Microsoft handed out libelous leaflets condemning Linus Torvalds, everyone would be up in arms; but because the Church of Scientology hides behind the religious excuse they can get a free pass and often avoid close scrutiny. Or at least they could in the past. With the internet being so widespread now information like that becomes exceedingly difficult to suppress and now people are learning exactly what CoS is up to. And a lot of people are very, very angry.

The concept of paying for enlightenment isn't new. Tithing still exists in some Christian sects today, although I don't think any of them enforce as strictly as they used to. A collection plate (a feature of every Christian sect, from what I've seen) is a form of paying for enlightenment. This is not the issue.

All joking aside, even doing this, speaking out against CoS on a public forum, carries a risk with it (albeit a small one). The people holding these protests aren't wearing masks because they look cool. It's because attending one of these rallies carries a very real risk of being identified, labeled SP and subsequently harassed by the Church of Scientology. Those Free Zone Scientologists I mentioned above? They get the same treatment, because the Church of Scientology wants the general population to see them as synonymous with belief in Scientology. That's important for them, so that they can continue to make claims of religious suppression.

To use your example above, should we ignore the guy who engages in petty theft just because some people commit grand theft auto? Anon goes after the target they have the ability to affect.

I do, I think their beliefs are beyond stupid. :thumbsup:

Well all are, but you're not going to put on a Guy Fawks mask and protest.

Maybe I should rephrase that. Personally, I find the idea that L Ron Hubbard is the saviour of mankind a bit hard to swallow myself. What I don't take issue with is people's right to believe it. If you really honestly believe in Scientology, go for it. It doesn't change the fact that the Church of Scientology is dangererous and, frankly, evil.

ad ursus attacks like the one quoted above are really not necessary. :)

Did the courts find them responsible?

HA~! Ribbing me in latin is just another example of why TFP is a classy place.

Ad multos annos...cheers

anon should have harrassed bush, I would have been more entertained.

In one case, yes. Operation Snow White I think would qualify as a 'criminal campaign of burglary and theft against a public organization.' It gets no more public than the United States government. Several high ranking church members were prosecuted and received jail sentences, including L Ron Hubbard's wife.

Claiming this war is on the religion itself is pretty weak.


Sometimes though, when I see people who sit back and claim "it doesnt hurt ME, so why bother?" or just stepping aside all together and somehow justifying injustices to themselves, a teeny little part of me hopes it DOES happen to them, and they will understand why cowardice and apathy are never the best course of action against a wrong.


It's more like "Props to them" that they financially destroy most of its members, up to the point of suicide in far too many cases, been the direct cause of far too many of its members deaths, and actually SUPPORTS the destruction of anyone who speaks against them.... up to the point of killing them.


I would venture to guess.



Furthermore, even using the term "Collection plate" is not appropriate, that implies you donate, donating would mean you aren't forced to pay more than 300,000 dollars to learn about the religion.

Last I heard, I can pick up a bible and learn exactly as much or more than even the highest ranking catholic priest in the world knows.

(Where = bible replace = Koran = Torah = ANY religious scriptures)

You must realize the sarcastic nature of my comment with Infinite Loser, and was making the situation lighter than it was, as I do have a problem with the CoS and their practices, while Loser isn't bothered by it.

Yet another reason this forum needs sarcastic tags.

No I understood, I wasn't trying to argue with you or anything. Just adding a little bit myself.

I gotta say, after watching some of those protest videos, I was simply amazed. After all the slack Generation Y has gotten, it's about time they did something worthwhile.

And Infinite_Loser, if you truly believe their attack is against religion, you're brainwashed. This is a cult that is responsible for the single largest infiltration of the US Government in history. Their plan no doubt is world domination, and as absolutely asinine as that sounds, they've already succeeded in taking over a city and its police force. Do some homework before you criticize something. This isn't an attack on religion, because Scientology ISN'T a religion. It's a dangerous cult, read some of L. Ron's quotes and use some common sense and you'll be able to realize it's complete bullshit. This isn't an attack on anyone's beliefs, but the practices of this "church", such as their "fair game" policy, the fact that they charge $370,000 for enlightenment, their suppression of free speech by suing anyone who speaks out against them, and the fact that they separate people from their families through their "disconnect". (Clever on their part, as people are easier to turn into robots and will be less willing to leave without their family there to talk some sense into them) No, this is a war to help those who have been indoctrinated into Scientology, to help them see the truth, and to prevent Scientology from ruining even more lives. Google "Operation Freakout", and you'll see how sick Scientology is.

Hell, after the 2/10 protests, their official response was that Anonymous is being lead by the German secret service and psychiatrists that are conspiring against them. I shit you not. Why are they picking on Germany? Because Germany refused to acknowledge Scientology as an official religion, and instead, labeled it as a cult.

i'm not exactly sure what these protests accomplished. i'm pretty sure most of us know what the deal is with Scientology; there have been tons of specials and reports on the news, etc. are a bunch of guys in masks going to suddenly make CoS dissolve? is it going to start investigations? i'm sure a lot of CoS money is lining the pockets of law enforcement and government officials.

seems like a piss in the wind effort

It's part of something A LOT bigger. This is basically phase 2 out of dozens.

BTW, they're expecting the March 15 protest to be at least 50% bigger than the Sunday protest.

Yeah... I'm going to have to say people hate Scientology because it's, well, Scientology. For everyone one death caused (Or, I should say, claimed to have been caused) in the name of Scientology, I can name you at the very least ten or more deaths caused in the name of Democracy, Christianity, Islam etc. etc. etc. Not to marginalize any wrongful death, but the fact that some people willfully overlook the glaring sins of another group of people in order to, for lack of a better word, dog pile on one group of people who they don't like is rather... Hypocritical. You see, Anon and it's supporters aren't attacking Scientology because they seeks social justice; They're attacking Scientology because the church rained on their parade and they didn't like that and/or they have some person grudge against the church.

*Shrugs*

Oh, and since we're on the topic, you must REALLY hate the gospel of prosperity?

Not this argument again...

The difference between a cult and a religion is, well... There is no difference, aside from one word having a distinctly negative connotation to it. Belief systems are only labeled as cults when the society at large deems them dangerous to the status quo. It's nothing new, as nearly every religion has had to deal with the 'cult' status at one point in it's history.

*Shrugs*

Of course, this entire argument is moot. You happen to think Scientology is a cult while many world governments happen to disagree with you and define Scientology as a religion. I think it's safe to say that your personal beliefs are outweighed by the beliefs of the government under which you reside.

I suppose this has become the rallying cry for Anon and it's supporters. I'm curious, though. Was the church of Scientology ever charged with any criminal conduct?

*See above*

You're wrong. End of story.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Now you know the difference.

You're wrong. End of story.

I can do it too!

WHEEEE! :thumbsup:

Come now, Will. You know better than to play semantics.

Yeah, except I provided irrefutable evidence as to why your classification of Scientology as a cult is wrong whereas you're just trying to patronize me.

No semantics played there, one is a definition of cult, the other for religion, you didn't seem to know the difference.

What irrefutable evidence would that be? It certainly isn't your opinion in your last post, that isn't really evidence, it's an opinion not fact.

When one resorts to debating the meaning of words in order to detract from the real issue, that's called playing semantics. But since we're on the topic, would you care to tell me the difference between Christianity as a cult and Christianity as a religion? I know it's off-topic, but since you seemingly believe there's some innate difference between the two aside from how it's perceived by society, then I'd really like to know what that difference is, exactly.

This (As I said earlier) ---> Of course, this entire argument is moot. You happen to think Scientology is a cult while many world governments happen to disagree with you and define Scientology as a religion. I think it's safe to say that your personal beliefs are outweighed by the beliefs of the government under which you reside.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact.

You're making a semantic argument. You said there's no difference between two words other than negative and positive connotation. You are incorrect and I provided evidence to show that you're incorrect. You have provided no evidence. This is why I am and right and you are not.

Unless you have evidence?

There was no debate on the meaning of the words, you said there was no difference between a religion and a cult, will posted definitions to show you the two are obviously different.

Cult of Christianity: A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible.

Religion of Christianity: Christianity is a monotheistic religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament. Its followers, known as Christians, believe Jesus to be the Son of God and the Messiah (or Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament - which they share as part of its scriptures with Judaism and they see the New Testament as relating the "Gospel", the message revealed by Jesus.

Clear enough? Or shall I draw you a picture?

Doubtful we'll see evidence, other than 'your personal beliefs are outweighed by the beliefs of the government under which you reside'. Yeah that's real proof right there:rolleyes:

This is getting further and further off-topic but...

No, Will, you're not right. You need proof? I extend the question I asked to Silent Jay to yourself. Good luck with that, as you're going to need it.

Already answered, wasn't hard at all, just have to know how to read, and understand what the difference between a religion and a cult is.

All religions are stupid and dangerous to me to some degree.

Scientology is just extra stupid and extra dangerous (to its own members) and is predatory.

The cosmic Jewish zombie is hard for me to swallow but at least there is some 5000 years of tradition behind it, and they no longer persecute me for giving up the religion.

The whole Xenu thing isn't just science fiction its BAD science fiction, and has no good going for it beyond those who think just joining a group makes their miserable lives seem a bit better, and those profiting from them.

There is a fine line between freedom of religion, and exploitation, these people cross it.

He already answered it, but I'll take it a step further. It turns out that there actually are Christian cults. Ever heard of Moonies? No? Yeah, I'm not surprised.

Why is it that atheists consistently know more about religion than theists?