Requirements for a P.O. to take out his weapon - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Painted · 01-27-2008, 08:15 PM

I was staying over at a friend's house overnight with him in his bedroom and me in the living room. In the morning, around 11 AM, three police officers entered the house with their pistols drawn and pointed at me. They woke me up and ordered me to put my hands on my head. They asked me if I was the only one in the house, I said no. Then two of them searched the house and got my friend and put him in the living room with me. They then searched us and found nothing. And then they put their weapons down.

It turns out a neighbor called the police on us because they thought we were burglaring the place (?). We did show up around 1 AM in my car but it was Saturday night, and the police did not come until 10 hours later. We were forced to wait half an hour before they left, after confirming that my friend owned the house.

My question is, is it legal for a police officer to point his weapon at you if you are laying on a couch sleeping? I know they thought they were dealing with burglars, but they probably scoped the house out before entering it and clearly saw just me and my friend sleeping in separate rooms. They also entered the house without my friends' permission. My car was in the driveway and by 11 AM it was fogged up and cold, obviously we had been there a long time, what kind of burglar would do that? It was basically a normal sleepover. I also have to say that waking up to three guns pointed at me and three very strict persons holding them was one of the scariest moments of my life. /rant

Fotzlid · 01-27-2008, 08:25 PM

as a guess, i imagine they will draw their weapons whenever they enter a building with a possible felony in progress. you may have been sleeping, but they have no way of knowing if there is a weapon near you.
as far as entering the house, they had probable cause based on the call alone.
i'm sure they figured it out pretty quick, but they have their procedures to follow. they can't leave anything to chance in those situations either.

Painted · 01-27-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fotzlid

as a guess, i imagine they will draw their weapons whenever they enter a building with a possible felony in progress. you may have been sleeping, but they have no way of knowing if there is a weapon near you.
as far as entering the house, they had probable cause based on the call alone.
i'm sure they figured it out pretty quick, but they have their procedures to follow. they can't leave anything to chance in those situations either.

could they really have probable cause to point a gun at someone just based on a half-assed call at 10 AM?

BogeyDope · 01-27-2008, 09:05 PM

They can point a gun at whomever they want. For all they know, you're awake and about to charge at them with a knife.

SSJTWIZTA · 01-27-2008, 10:28 PM

Yeah, they can do it. Ive been thrown to the ground and had a knee put in my back at gunpoint before, tasters and pistols drawn, and all i was doing was walking through a neighborhood. Mind you, it was a horrible, trashy trailer park, and i did have my hawk spiked and trashy clothes on.

The only thing that gets me about your story is the response time. If they scoped the area like you believed then there should clearly be no sign of breaking and entering and plus, like you said, what thief sleeps for hours on end at a place he just burgled.

surferlove007 · 01-27-2008, 10:52 PM

What about that thing called a warrant? Or does probable cause override that? I think a phone-call isn't a reason to bust into someones house. Perhaps get brinks...they'll call you when someone goes into your house, that or when the alarm goes off.

And 10 hours later? Reminds of me of that story of the guy's house who got burgled and the guy was on the phone with the 911 Operator and said never mind, I got it. Apparently he shot the guy in the leg so he couldn't get away. Brinks...we always had cops out there in less than 10 minutes if the alarm went off. (It happened a few times with cat incidents...not cat bunglers.)

Sorry that happened to you...but it does kind of suck about P.Os that they can pretty much do what they please.

ObieX · 01-27-2008, 11:12 PM

If i were you i would go over to the neighbor and tell them the crap they put you through.. but thats just me. I'm sure they had good intentions but sometimes people need to mind their own fucking business. Their business should end where your property line begins.

I once had something similar happen to me because i parked my car facing the wrong way on the side of the road once for maybe a few hours. (my mother needed me to move the car out of the way so she could get out and i just backed it into the open spot right in front of my house) The police then entered and searched my house (why?). After the police left i asked the neighbor (who was watching the spectacle with other neighbors on their front lawns) why he did it and he said "well how do i know the car isn't stolen!?" My response being "Because you see it parked in my fucking driveway every day asshole!" That was a fun day.

The very next day i saw my neighbor park his car across the sidewalk in front of his house.. i could have been a dick and called the cops on him. I just gave him a smile and continued on into my house.

One good thing did come out of the event. As i was pulling my car into my driveway after about 2 hours of the cops rummaging through my house they yelled at *me* because someone was speeding up the hill near my house and had to slow down as i was pulling the car in. I immediately informed them that the hill has the word "SLOW" in giant letters painted on it with accompanying signage for a reason and that people speed up the hill constantly. Within about two days there was a radar sign posted on the hill with the speed limit clearly marked and a dial that registered cars' speed as they approached. It was gone after a few days but at least it was something.

blahblah454 · 01-27-2008, 11:46 PM

I am pretty sure they drew the weapons only after they saw you sleeping. You know, some guy gets tired half way through the burglary and decides to take a nap....

/sarcasm

Plan9 · 01-28-2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethal Weapon

Roger Murtaugh: Okay, clown, no bullshit! You wanna kill yourself?
Martin Riggs: Oh, for Chriss-...
Roger Murtaugh: Shut up! Yes or no - you wanna die?
Martin Riggs: Oh, I got the job done! What the hell do you want?
Roger Murtaugh: JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Martin Riggs: Well, what do you wanna hear, man? Do you wanna hear that sometimes I think about eatin' a bullet? Huh? Well, I do! I even got a special bullet for the occasion with a hollow point, look! Make sure it blows the back of my goddamned head out and do the job right! Every single day I wake up and I think of a reason not to do it! Every single day! You know why I don't do it? This is gonna make you laugh! You know why I don't do it? The job! Doin' the job! Now that's the reason!

...

Seriously? Police officers use restraints like handcuffs to neutralize arrest and potential custody situations. It keeps them safe (you're less of a threat) and it keeps you safe (you're less of a target). This case? I don't think they shouldn't have used that kind of escalation of force (handgun in your face) unless you presented a threat or they had other information. A calm voice usually does wonders. Once cuffed... everybody is a lot less nervous.

The only viable excuse to draw a weapon and point it at someone is threat of imminent danger. Weapons are not passive defensive implements like body armor or vests. Plus, you don't shoot fleeing suspects (legally) and only use violence against violence in an escalation-of-force matrix they brainwash into ya. Most departments don't want your piece leaving the leather unless you're going to use it. Militant cops pointing big scary handguns at people is really, really bad PR.

Fotzlid · 01-28-2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

This case? I don't think they shouldn't have used that kind of escalation of force (handgun in your face) unless you presented a threat or they had other information.

wasn't an escalation. it was a show of force. based on the call, the people in the house were potential threats that had to be controlled quickly.
i'm not a cop (i've met and gotten to know quite a few at work) but it sounded like they went by the book on this case.

Push-Pull · 01-28-2008, 06:41 AM

Perhaps a call to the Chief of Police in your area asking him to please educate you on the policies and procedures in a case like this would be in order? I imagine that he would like to hear about it if officers went outside the P&P.

I can understand how you feel. Waking up with a gun in your face, regardless of who is brandishing it, can make for a VERY bad day.....

Slims · 01-28-2008, 10:38 AM

It was, IMHO, entirely appropriate for the officers to have weapons drawn, as they were in a high risk situation.

However, they had absolutely no business pointing their weapons at you.

There is a difference between having a weapon drawn and tucked up to the chest at the ready, and having a weapon extended and pointed at you. Are you sure that they were actually no shit drawing down on you? or did they possibly just have their weapons at the ready?

They should have had enough control over their weapons to not accidentally point them at you (or they had no business carrying any). So if they did I think it is safe to assume they did so deliberately, which was uncalled for.

I don't know wether they actually broke the law, but even if they did, remember that they were trying to keep your buddy from getting ripped off.

Punk.of.Ages · 01-28-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA

Yeah, they can do it. Ive been thrown to the ground and had a knee put in my back at gunpoint before, tasters and pistols drawn, and all i was doing was walking through a neighborhood. Mind you, it was a horrible, trashy trailer park, and i did have my hawk spiked and trashy clothes on.

I can't even count how many times my friends have been pulled over for the dumbest things because of the mohawked punk kid in their passenger seat (me).

Basically the cops can do whatever they want as long as they can say something was out of line. Waking somebody up with a pistol 10 hours after a burglary call makes no sense at all, but the call gives them the ability to justify it.

Lasereth · 01-28-2008, 11:52 AM

How do you know the call didn't come in when the police came?

The police were doing their job. Dispatch says a burglary is in progress from a witness so the cops come and check it out as if a burglary is in progress. Would a normal burglary in progress yield their weapons drawn? You better believe it. It's easy to say the cops overreacted and that you were mistreated, but look at it on the cops side: they've been told that a WITNESS has seen a burglary going down in that house and to check it out. They don't know you or your friend or who lives there. All they know is someone believes a burglary is going on and they have to take precautions or something can go majorly wrong.

They were not out of line in the least bit.

Painted · 01-28-2008, 01:53 PM

The neighbor called the police at about 10:30, but by then we had been sleeping for 8 hours and had nary a light on. If the neighbor or police had been watching the house, they'd only see two guys sleeping, one of them being the owner of the house!

It just pisses me off because we weren't doing ANYTHING wrong. We weren't having a party, drinking or making a lot of noise. We looked settled in, keys and mail on the kitchen counter, a few dishes on the coffee table, two cars in the driveway, etc. How could any of this possibly be seen as a "burglary in progress"?

Jinn · 01-28-2008, 02:47 PM

In this thread ONLY, I agree with dksuddeth when he arrives to reply.

Willravel · 01-28-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

My question is, is it legal for a police officer to point his weapon at you if you are laying on a couch sleeping?

It's hyperdefensive, yes, but assuming they announced themselves before entering (when you were asleep), it's not illegal. I'm sure there have been times when someone sleeping on a couch has become extremely dangerous to a police officer very quickly upon waking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

My car was in the driveway and by 11 AM it was fogged up and cold, obviously we had been there a long time, what kind of burglar would do that?

There used to be a show on Fox called America's Dumbest Criminals. The show was stupid, but so are a lot of criminals.

Toaster126 · 01-28-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

It just pisses me off because we weren't doing ANYTHING wrong.

Welcome to life for a lot of people. Sometimes that just doesn't matter as much as it should.

Hektore · 01-28-2008, 04:38 PM

Well, at first I was going to say that they shouldn't have come into your house because a phone call by a neighbor shouldn't be enough to give probable cause and go barging in guns drawn. But, when I read your post a second time I took notice that it was 11 am when they got there, meaning in the middle of the afternoon with two cars there - nobody answered the door. Even without sign of forced entry that would lend some credibility to the call, I suppose enough to merit entry. All in all, I don't see how they did anything wrong.

As an aside: it has become somewhat common for homeless people around here to break into unoccupied houses/cars/sheds for a slightly warmer place to sleep. Thus, just because you aren't ransacking the place doesn't mean you are supposed to be there.

Plan9 · 01-28-2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

In this thread ONLY, I agree with dksuddeth when he arrives to reply.

Man, I'd so take advantage of this blank check if I were him.

dksuddeth · 01-29-2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

In this thread ONLY, I agree with dksuddeth when he arrives to reply.

I hope I don't disapoint you then.

when responding to a criminal complaint where the perpetrators are considered to still be in the vicinity, the police are authorized to draw weapons. This is policy for their safety on 'controlling' a scene.

I do say that the actions of the neighbor are extremely suspect in to why he would call the police for this if he knew who the car belonged to.

All in all, I have to side with the LEOs on this one. I would have done the same thing were it me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Man, I'd so take advantage of this blank check if I were him.

and I sure as hell wanted to.

01-27-2008, 08:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	Requirements for a P.O. to take out his weapon I was staying over at a friend's house overnight with him in his bedroom and me in the living room. In the morning, around 11 AM, three police officers entered the house with their pistols drawn and pointed at me. They woke me up and ordered me to put my hands on my head. They asked me if I was the only one in the house, I said no. Then two of them searched the house and got my friend and put him in the living room with me. They then searched us and found nothing. And then they put their weapons down. It turns out a neighbor called the police on us because they thought we were burglaring the place (?). We did show up around 1 AM in my car but it was Saturday night, and the police did not come until 10 hours later. We were forced to wait half an hour before they left, after confirming that my friend owned the house. My question is, is it legal for a police officer to point his weapon at you if you are laying on a couch sleeping? I know they thought they were dealing with burglars, but they probably scoped the house out before entering it and clearly saw just me and my friend sleeping in separate rooms. They also entered the house without my friends' permission. My car was in the driveway and by 11 AM it was fogged up and cold, obviously we had been there a long time, what kind of burglar would do that? It was basically a normal sleepover. I also have to say that waking up to three guns pointed at me and three very strict persons holding them was one of the scariest moments of my life. /rant __________________ I came across a nice rack at the department store

01-27-2008, 10:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
SSJTWIZTA Master Thief. Master Criminal. Masturbator. Location: Windiwana	Yeah, they can do it. Ive been thrown to the ground and had a knee put in my back at gunpoint before, tasters and pistols drawn, and all i was doing was walking through a neighborhood. Mind you, it was a horrible, trashy trailer park, and i did have my hawk spiked and trashy clothes on. The only thing that gets me about your story is the response time. If they scoped the area like you believed then there should clearly be no sign of breaking and entering and plus, like you said, what thief sleeps for hours on end at a place he just burgled. __________________ First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me. -Pastor Martin Niemoller

01-27-2008, 11:12 PM	#7 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	If i were you i would go over to the neighbor and tell them the crap they put you through.. but thats just me. I'm sure they had good intentions but sometimes people need to mind their own fucking business. Their business should end where your property line begins. I once had something similar happen to me because i parked my car facing the wrong way on the side of the road once for maybe a few hours. (my mother needed me to move the car out of the way so she could get out and i just backed it into the open spot right in front of my house) The police then entered and searched my house (why?). After the police left i asked the neighbor (who was watching the spectacle with other neighbors on their front lawns) why he did it and he said "well how do i know the car isn't stolen!?" My response being "Because you see it parked in my fucking driveway every day asshole!" That was a fun day. The very next day i saw my neighbor park his car across the sidewalk in front of his house.. i could have been a dick and called the cops on him. I just gave him a smile and continued on into my house. One good thing did come out of the event. As i was pulling my car into my driveway after about 2 hours of the cops rummaging through my house they yelled at me because someone was speeding up the hill near my house and had to slow down as i was pulling the car in. I immediately informed them that the hill has the word "SLOW" in giant letters painted on it with accompanying signage for a reason and that people speed up the hill constantly. Within about two days there was a radar sign posted on the hill with the speed limit clearly marked and a dial that registered cars' speed as they approached. It was gone after a few days but at least it was something. __________________ We Must Dissent.

01-28-2008, 06:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
Push-Pull I'll ask when I'm ready.... Location: Firmly in the middle....	Perhaps a call to the Chief of Police in your area asking him to please educate you on the policies and procedures in a case like this would be in order? I imagine that he would like to hear about it if officers went outside the P&P. I can understand how you feel. Waking up with a gun in your face, regardless of who is brandishing it, can make for a VERY bad day..... __________________ "No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me- "Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown- DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

01-28-2008, 10:38 AM	#12 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	It was, IMHO, entirely appropriate for the officers to have weapons drawn, as they were in a high risk situation. However, they had absolutely no business pointing their weapons at you. There is a difference between having a weapon drawn and tucked up to the chest at the ready, and having a weapon extended and pointed at you. Are you sure that they were actually no shit drawing down on you? or did they possibly just have their weapons at the ready? They should have had enough control over their weapons to not accidentally point them at you (or they had no business carrying any). So if they did I think it is safe to assume they did so deliberately, which was uncalled for. I don't know wether they actually broke the law, but even if they did, remember that they were trying to keep your buddy from getting ripped off. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

01-27-2008, 08:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Fotzlid Junkie Location: Greater Boston area	as a guess, i imagine they will draw their weapons whenever they enter a building with a possible felony in progress. you may have been sleeping, but they have no way of knowing if there is a weapon near you. as far as entering the house, they had probable cause based on the call alone. i'm sure they figured it out pretty quick, but they have their procedures to follow. they can't leave anything to chance in those situations either.

01-27-2008, 09:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
BogeyDope Crazy	They can point a gun at whomever they want. For all they know, you're awake and about to charge at them with a knife.

01-27-2008, 10:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
surferlove007 Junkie	What about that thing called a warrant? Or does probable cause override that? I think a phone-call isn't a reason to bust into someones house. Perhaps get brinks...they'll call you when someone goes into your house, that or when the alarm goes off. And 10 hours later? Reminds of me of that story of the guy's house who got burgled and the guy was on the phone with the 911 Operator and said never mind, I got it. Apparently he shot the guy in the leg so he couldn't get away. Brinks...we always had cops out there in less than 10 minutes if the alarm went off. (It happened a few times with cat incidents...not cat bunglers.) Sorry that happened to you...but it does kind of suck about P.Os that they can pretty much do what they please.

01-27-2008, 11:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	I am pretty sure they drew the weapons only after they saw you sleeping. You know, some guy gets tired half way through the burglary and decides to take a nap.... /sarcasm

01-28-2008, 11:52 AM	#14 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	How do you know the call didn't come in when the police came? The police were doing their job. Dispatch says a burglary is in progress from a witness so the cops come and check it out as if a burglary is in progress. Would a normal burglary in progress yield their weapons drawn? You better believe it. It's easy to say the cops overreacted and that you were mistreated, but look at it on the cops side: they've been told that a WITNESS has seen a burglary going down in that house and to check it out. They don't know you or your friend or who lives there. All they know is someone believes a burglary is going on and they have to take precautions or something can go majorly wrong. They were not out of line in the least bit.

01-28-2008, 01:53 PM	#15 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	The neighbor called the police at about 10:30, but by then we had been sleeping for 8 hours and had nary a light on. If the neighbor or police had been watching the house, they'd only see two guys sleeping, one of them being the owner of the house! It just pisses me off because we weren't doing ANYTHING wrong. We weren't having a party, drinking or making a lot of noise. We looked settled in, keys and mail on the kitchen counter, a few dishes on the coffee table, two cars in the driveway, etc. How could any of this possibly be seen as a "burglary in progress"? __________________ I came across a nice rack at the department store

01-28-2008, 02:47 PM	#16 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	In this thread ONLY, I agree with dksuddeth when he arrives to reply. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

01-28-2008, 04:38 PM	#19 (permalink)
Hektore Junkie Location: Greater Harrisburg Area	Well, at first I was going to say that they shouldn't have come into your house because a phone call by a neighbor shouldn't be enough to give probable cause and go barging in guns drawn. But, when I read your post a second time I took notice that it was 11 am when they got there, meaning in the middle of the afternoon with two cars there - nobody answered the door. Even without sign of forced entry that would lend some credibility to the call, I suppose enough to merit entry. All in all, I don't see how they did anything wrong. As an aside: it has become somewhat common for homeless people around here to break into unoccupied houses/cars/sheds for a slightly warmer place to sleep. Thus, just because you aren't ransacking the place doesn't mean you are supposed to be there. __________________ The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.